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FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
Yes because only America fails its citizens lol.

I didn't say that. But these specific circumstances, yes. It's not like there would be some Aussie or Londoner that would have followed the same path in any reasonable way. Etc.

Edit: also I didn't realize it was an actual meme, I missed that earlier post, but it doesn't surprise me. The first thought I had after watching the first season was akin to "well this wouldn't happen in any other first world country".
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,239
I didn't say that. But these specific circumstances, yes. It's not like there would be some Aussie or Londoner that would have followed the same path in any reasonable way. Etc.

I mean obviously yes, but once you start introducing "if he was in Canada" or "If he was in the UK" you are no longer talking about his specific circumstances either. The impetus for White allowing his inner psychopath out in this case is uniquely American, that doesn't mean he's some victim of those circumstances. That didn't make him a villain. He always was one. Being a failure at life is what made him that way, not getting cancer or not having the money for treatment.
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,241
The US Healthcare system failed him. The US Healthcare system did not turn him into a villain. The whole "Breaking Bad Canada would have been one episode" thing is a nice little meme, but it misses the entire point of his character and the show.

Yeah I agree, although there are a thousand ways one can imagine where he might not have acted on his tendencies.

In another version, if Walter didn't happen to know Frank or Jesse, he wouldn't have gotten into meth. I could have seen him being more like Hugh Jackman's real life character in Bad Education (Dr. Frank Tassone) and embezzled money from the school system.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
I mean obviously yes, but once you start introducing "if he was in Canada" or "If he was in the UK" you are no longer talking about his specific circumstances either. The impetus for White allowing his inner psychopath out in this case is uniquely American, that doesn't mean he's some victim of those circumstances. That didn't make him a villain. He always was one. Being a failure at life is what made him that way, not getting cancer or not having the money for treatment.

I don't know if I agree with that. Many villain origin stories are about why they turned into villains, right? He seemed a regular person before he got delivered a death sentence. That seems to be the catalyst to me. But hey I guess these questions are why the show resonated with so many people.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,239
I don't know if I agree with that. Many villain origin stories are about why they turned into villains, right? He seemed a regular person before he got delivered a death sentence. That seems to be the catalyst to me. But hey I guess these questions are why the show resonated with so many people.

I mean, his character arc over the course of the show makes it clear he was not a regular person before he got the cancer diagnosis. He was a bitter, insecure, self centered failure.
 
OP
OP
halcali

halcali

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
6,317
Hong Kong SAR
So you make an entire thread based on statement you make not as a question, not even a what-if-maybe, but as a certainty: "... WOULD never have broken... yada yada"; and then you jump on people for having other what-if theories with an all-caps "we know NOTHING". What the fuck is this thread?

hey, be cool. Everything I write is tongue-in-cheek.

let's Break Bread sometime. <3
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
I mean, his character arc over the course of the show makes it clear he was not a regular person before he got the cancer diagnosis. He was a bitter, insecure, self centered failure.

Maybe I should rewatch a few seasons. I read it as life kept handing him losses so he kept spiraling deeper into darkness. I'll try to look at things from your perspective.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,246
UK
Maybe I should rewatch a few seasons. I read it as life kept handing him losses so he kept spiraling deeper into darkness. I'll try to look at things from your perspective.
So you didn't get to the parts where it wasn't about his circumstances but when he chose to go further into his selfishness and arrogance, initiating to become a crime lord. A lot of the show is about him being broken before, like already mentioned about his insecurities.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,450
It's not like Joker where society treated him bad. He began a drug empire because he wanted to feel powerful.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
So you didn't get to the parts where it wasn't about his circumstances but when he chose to go further into his selfishness and arrogance, initiating to become a crime lord. A lot of the show is about him being broken before, like already mentioned about his insecurities.

No I didn't. It starts out with a guy who keeps getting in over his head because he wants to leave behind money for his disabled son and wife, so he does whatever it takes, compromising his morals in the process. It transformed around the tail end of season 2 into what you're suggesting.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,246
UK
No I didn't. It starts out with a guy who keeps getting in over his head because he wants to leave behind money for his disabled son and wife, so he does whatever it takes, compromising his morals in the process. It transformed around the tail end of season 2 into what you're suggesting.
Yeah, then come there many points where he could have walked away from it all but he goes past the point of no return by his own volition and truly becomes a villain. It's a fascinating transformation.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,109
So you didn't get to the parts where it wasn't about his circumstances but when he chose to go further into his selfishness and arrogance, initiating to become a crime lord. A lot of the show is about him being broken before, like already mentioned about his insecurities.
This is partly true. But his circumstances really were the kicker. With a proper health care system he would have felt less like a failure and less like the world was shifting on him. His ego would have been less damaged.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,223
show in the end tightened the lid on walt being evil/an asshole the whole time but i think the outset was meant to put him on a much more vague trajectory
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,253
If the story had taken place in Canada or the UK it would have been over in an episode.

Doctor: "You have cancer. We're going to begin your treatment immediately"

Meanwhile in the US: "I'm your doctor. You have cancer. I hope you're rich otherwise you're going to die a slow expensive death because of Republicans. Or you could become a druglord. Your choice I guess. 2nd Amendment yeehaa *licks two shots in the atmosphere*"
I don't necessarily agree that it would have been over if he lived in Canada or the UK. Sure his healthcare would have been taken care of, but there was still the matter of 720k or thereabouts that he wanted to leave for his wife and children for future expenses. And he wasn't going to put that together on the 43k he was making as a chemistry teacher in New Mexico or in Canada or the UK in the 2 years he had left to live.
 

Pulp

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,023
While money certainly was a trigger he had a lot of other issues. He was going towards some sort of meltdown either way
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
what I wrote out a while back:

So, back when I watched Breaking Bad, I was in my late teens and I was different and the times were different. As a premise, the show is fundamentally about an average guy who inadequate in his place in life and the story of the show is what he is willing to do to feel better about his place in life. That's a really abstracted summary, but I think the reason Walter White is so resonated with so many people is, besides "I'm not happy with my life, lets do something about it" being kind of a universal core premise, it was also a point where millennials were growing up and entering adult life and realizing that it's not all it's cracked up to be, even though they themselves are qualified and smarter than the place in life they occupy indicates. From that seed, the excellent writing and varied dimensions of not just walter, but all the cast lead to a show that can be interpreted under a myriad of lenses. I've seen the show analyzed to question what is justice, to analyze Walt's psychological state, how society often fails to take care of its citizens, etc, etc. Particularly after gamergate, my preferred lens of understanding BB's drama was that of toxic masculinity. It's pretty comprehensive in that Walt identifies his role as a husband and father to 'provide for his family', but only in financial terms. It's stated verbally a few times through the series that this is what he considers "being a man". Meanwhile, Skylar and Walt Jr. were actually pretty happy at the start of the series despite having money problems and throughout the series have, at various points, indicated they don't care as much about money and would rather just have Walt around and be a good dad and husband. But he prioritized his families financial wellbeing over their emotional wellbeing to such an extent that the greatest episode of the series has that signature moment where he screams "What are you doing?! We're a FAMILY!" to his terrified wife and son.

But I'm getting away from myself. My point is, I find myself revisiting my thoughts on Breaking Bad and....well, I don't really feel different so much as I have more feelings in addition to the ones I already have. Toxic Masculinity is still probably my prime way of seeing the fundamental drive of Walt's character, but I now see it a new dimension to it as well. I simply asked myself this: Why is Walter so repulsed by charity? He was offered the money by the generosity of his good friend, Elliott Schwartz, and he couldn't bring himself to take it. He also couldn't stand Saul's suggested money laundering scheme of online donations because it made him out to be the receiver of generosity, as well as other more minor examples where he vehemently rejected the concept of simply being handed his salvation from cancer.

Now your about to write "Because his pride wouldn't let him" and yeah, sure, that's an answer that's both accurate and true, but it's also not what I'm getting at. A deeper question is this: Why is it that being the recipient of generosity, kindness and compassion (which are all good qualities for any individual to have) something to be ashamed of in his mind? I've read A LOT of Breaking bad commentary and very few people even bothered to broach this aspect of Walt's psychology. And I think it's because that, atleast at the time, this was one of those deeper, more intuitive feelings we never questioned. If you were to ask a person in an average situation if they thought that simply giving someone something they need and will be happy with is a good thing, they'd say yes, obviously it is. But Breaking Bad makes the assumption that that everyone will understand the contradiction while GIVING charity is supposed to be an act of goodness, recieving charity is something one would feel ashamed of and rejected by people with pride. And a ton of defenses of Walt's character take this stance: he couldn't have taken Elliot's money and job offer because that, in his mind, would be living the same unfulfilled life he has been living before cancer. He had to take it himself, or else he might as well just die.

As I said, I'm different now. I feel differently about how the society and political system we live in shapes our social norms and ourselves and I feel differently about what kind of treatment citizens are entitled to from their government (remember when this picture was just a joke we could laughed at?) and I've participated in charity a few times now (a few times in an official capacity, a few times to individuals I've met where they needed money). And I've been on atleast one occasion the recipient of charity, where a kind person took pity on me and helped me. That last part in particular has nuanced the empathy I feel for Walt's innate drive to make the money he needs on his own terms. For me to feel as Walt does, uncritically, I would have to say that I look down on those I gave my money to. I would have to say "They have been made lesser than me, because they needed the money I gave away to live on." I can't really do that. The people I donated to needed help. It wasn't their fault they were in the situation they were, but even if they had been, it wouldn't have mattered because....they needed help. That was all there is to it and it feels good to do this. If you have ever in your life been happy because you made someone else happy, that's the essential core of being charitable.

It's kind of wild how different this feels from the other side though. When I needed help, I was angry, especially because it WAS my fault that I was in the situation I was in. And when that person helped....the best way I can describe is that it is a pain. It hurts. My first instinct was to reject it , which I tried to do,and when I accepted it, I was just unsure at first. An vaguely uncomfortable mixture of shame, gratitude, humility, and obligation. As in, you are now aware that in the future, you will have to have that person's back should they ever need it, pay that kindness back in turn. It's a feeling of having to be better. And I felt much easier about it once I returned to that person with a gift as a gesture of gratitude. The way I dealt with the pain of being given charity is mainly to be grateful and promise to be charitable to that person in particular should they ever need it. And now I feel good at about it. We're better friends now and feeling that obligation to be charitable in turn could be argued to have made me a better person. But kindness sometimes hurts, weird as it is to say.


When offered charity, Walt never got past that initial stage where you just feel pain. Rather than push through it, he raged and ran from any conversation regarding it. And that's not entirely on him, because no one really knew how to communicate with him about it. Conversations generally went "Hey Walt, we have a way of you getting the money, XXX is willing to just give it" "FUCK NO, I refuse to be a victim" "What...the fuck, Walt you have cancer and this is free money" "NO." And the conversations tended to end with the person talking to walt looking somewhat incredulous at him, not being able to actually articulate any argument to Walt's association of being given money to shame. And I can't blame them. Breaking bad does not occupy a grimdark world, atleast in the sphere of Walt's suburban life. Sure, the criminal underbelly may have all sorts of monsters and his friend and family aren't perfect, but Hank for all his chucklefuckness is a guy that cares about Walt, Marie is an airhead but loves her family and stands by them when she needs to, and Skyler and Walt Jr. all loved Walt. Even his more distant associates, like the school principle, was kind and understanding to him. But they weren't able to reach the core of his problem.

And why should they be able to? Why would they be able to do this if the majority of the audience didn't have it in them to criticize the idea. Again, I've seen a ton of Breaking Bad commentary, but those who were anti Walt and spent their time arguing how immoral he is, when they were confronted with point that if Walt accepted the charity, he'd think of himself in terms of victimhood, their response was a relatively unsympathetic "Well, he should be a victim then." It's not unreasonable that either Walt's family either shared his association of victimhood and charity and just thought Walt should accept it, or if they didn't think that, they didn't think to consider that Walt thinks differently than them and that they need to talk about that instead.

So thinking back to Breaking Bad now, while healthcare would have obviously solved the cancer issue, and reduction of toxic masculinity would have solved the family issue, Walt's emotional dysfunction stems his inability to accept any solution that doesn't fit his standards of self actualization. I don't think that in itself is objectionable. You have to live your life in a way that makes you happy, obviously, otherwise your gonna feel a lot like Walt did before his cancer pushed him out of his life-long rut into self actualization. But if someone in Walt's life had had the language or perspective necessary to get at the core of why he feels that accepting charity is something to be ashamed of, he might have realized how wrong that feeling is. You could perhaps say this is obvious, but I don't think so. Like I said, in a weird way, charity does hurt. Being shown in tangible terms, that you need to be carried by someone else is not a happy, funtime fulfilling thing even when you are in a position where you need it. Atleast at first. But if you use it to grow as a person, it can be a beautiful experience, not just because you got something you needed, but because then you feel like you have to be better. Aside from paying the treatment itself, Elliot also offered Walt a job at Gray Matters. It wouldn't have been as dramatic a story, but if all Walt wants to do is be a badass chemist, he could have done great, fulfilling work there that earned him all the self respect he craved.

I empathize with Walt's feelings perhaps more deeply than I did back then, but it also makes me wish someone would reach out and just tell him his whole perspective is wrong. There is nothing wrong with letting someone be kind to you. But Walt just didn't have anyone in his life who could tell him that, and that's sad.


BTW, I didn't write this out to make a statement, atleast not in the usual "Here is my take on this controversial character" way that you do with Kylo Ren or whatever nowadays. I'm not making any sort of argument for the greater nature of charity, not really, though my personal experience with it is good and recommend you atleast try it. No, all this was was more or less rambling. I just El Camino last night and it made me think about Walt and I realized I have a new way of thinking about him, which kind of astounds me given how much mental energy I've given to Breaking bad over the years already trying to puzzle it out. But that's what art is to me, I grow and I think something new about it as I do so. And I hope this offered a new perspective or you atleast enjoyed reading it. Good night.

Also BTW it's weird writing that this isn't a "my take on a controversial character" given that....well, he's Walter White and nothing much has changed. I guess it's more that he's not the hot topic anymore, and that's understandable, but it does make me wonder what we will think of the hot topic characters now in 10 years time. What new perspectives will we find that we don't see now? Perhaps BB is a unique case due to being so amazingly written, but it can apply to anything from the current star wars takes to better call saul to when GRRM's Song is finally finished and we see what where Jon and Dany and Tyrion and everyone really ends up. I look forward to being an old bastard talking about this shit.
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,612
Walter White is "economic anxiety" made manifest. A dead end job and a cancer diagnosis may have been the spark, but his ego was the tinder all along, and there's no shortage of dudes who have watched the show that are willing to bend over backwards to blame the circumstances and NOT the fact that Walter White was always a shitty dude driven by pride and insecurity.
 

AppleMIX

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
Do people forget that Walter was offered to cover his whole medical expenses by his former coworkers?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
Walt had a billion chances to not become a murdering meth cook overlord

The damn thing became an action movie at the end when "the skylar's a bitch" crowd showed up to watch the last 2 seasons
 

Shadybiz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,129
I know that people like to dirt on healthcare in the US, and with good reason, because it needs a LOT of improvement. Coverage not being tied to an employer is the real big one.

However, Walt had a teaching job, which is a government position. In the real world, his insurance likely would have covered the treatment with no issue.

That said: if Walt didn't have a job with benefits, or wasn't over 65 and on Medicare, or couldn't afford to pay for Obamacare, yeah he'd be fucked, and that is a BIG problem in this country.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,962
CT
Even if the entire world had free, amazing healthcare for everyone, you can still easily pivot the story to get Walter to break bad.
 
Mar 3, 2018
4,515
only thing that bugs me about breaking bad is how people jump through so many hoops to justify Walters actions and make him seem relatable and a victim of his surrounding. No, he's not an "anti-hero" as Reddit likes to constantly remind you. Sure his circumstances sucked, but he was pretty fucking evil. He had so many chances to stop or take another path but he didn't. Could have stopped right when Elliot offered to pay for all his health costs or offering him to come back to the company. Fuck him. But that's why it's a good show and character.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
NLBhP0m.jpg
Wouldn't he have had to pay a lot of money for medicine since it's not included in the public system? Thinking of BC here. I once had shingles and was surprised the medicine was $50; the guy at the pharmacy tolm me if I couldn't afford it, I'd depend on my immune system. Walter would have also have had the cancer detected too late if he didn't have a family doctor to refer him to a specialist, which is the case of so many Canadians who must rely on those pathetic, useless walk-in clinics.

Canada's system gets a lot of praise because it constantly gets compared to America, which lowers the bar. As a Spaniard living in Canada, its Healthcare system is still rather inefficient and lackluster unless you're wealthy, at least when compared to Spain and other European countries where I've been. I understand when compared to America these seem like minor inconvenients, but lack of family doctors and having to pay for prescriptions are I think huge issues that Canadians don't seem to want to address because, well, you know, "look at how good we are when compared to the US" and "I'm wealthy so it doesn't personally affect me".
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
He DID have healthcare. It just wasn't enough to cover the fancy treatment (the surgery to remove the lump) by the top specialist. If I recall correctly, the normal chemo and all that was going to be covered?
Does Canada guarantee top cancer surgeons for everyone who wants them? Or is that the domain of those who pay out of pocket.
Same deal with Hank and his rehab. His government health care would have covered it, but he wanted better treatment and had to pay out of pocket for it. Is it different in other countries?
 
Jun 13, 2020
1,302
Yeah I agree, although there are a thousand ways one can imagine where he might not have acted on his tendencies.

In another version, if Walter didn't happen to know Frank or Jesse, he wouldn't have gotten into meth. I could have seen him being more like Hugh Jackman's real life character in Bad Education (Dr. Frank Tassone) and embezzled money from the school system.
I think Bryan Cranston said that Walt never really broke bad during the show, that was just the kind of person he had always been but never got the opportunity to express.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
Economic anxiety taken to the extreme

also, the ramen gift scene still makes me cringe to this day. there's just something so relatable about being broke and being around upper-class folks.
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
Yknow if you think about it the enviroment and background of Walter White contributed to him "breaking bad"
 

MrNewVegas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,729
I mean obviously yes, but once you start introducing "if he was in Canada" or "If he was in the UK" you are no longer talking about his specific circumstances either. The impetus for White allowing his inner psychopath out in this case is uniquely American, that doesn't mean he's some victim of those circumstances. That didn't make him a villain. He always was one. Being a failure at life is what made him that way, not getting cancer or not having the money for treatment.
This seems like a scary thought to assume somebody is always a villain without villainous activity.

Do you believe in a minority report style world?
 

Jroc

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
6,145
It was ultimately an ego problem since he turned down the money from his former partner.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,451
New York
I feel like we had this same thread about a year ago.

Walt had no one to blame for what he did but himself and his own ego. He had access to ways of beating cancer just fine, but was too prideful to take them.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,300
This seems like a scary thought to assume somebody is always a villain without villainous activity.

Do you believe in a minority report style world?

Plenty of people are villains, yes. They just lead lives minimal opportunity to behave like that. Maybe they just yell at baristas, or cheat on their taxes. Walt happened to be on a drug bust and saw all the money that he thought he deserved, and he had the ability to make the product that leads to that money.

He spells this out in the penultimate episode. He never did any of this for his family. He did it because he's a narcissist and the whole Heisenberg "I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS" schtick made him happy
 

Heliex

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,119
I never understood this joke. Initially he wants to make money he can leave behind for his family. He doesn't want money to pay his hospital bills. He even refused treatment at first. This joke makes no sense.
I mean, having to leave money behind for your family is obviously something everyone wants to do, but here in Canada its less of a life and death situation than in the US. Though like someone mentioned earlier, alot of what Walt did was based on pure ego and feeling fucked over by your own bad decisions, so he probably wouldve ended up the same way no matter where he lived.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,435
I never understood this joke. Initially he wants to make money he can leave behind for his family. He doesn't want money to pay his hospital bills. He even refused treatment at first. This joke makes no sense.

This is leaving an important bit out. He refuses treatment because he doesn't want his family to become destitute attempting treatment for the cancer.

He cooks the meth supposedly as a means to leave them some money after he dies but if money wasn't an object, he would have attempted treatment.
 

ConfusingJazz

Not the Ron Paul Texas Fan.
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,907
China
It's like some of you didn't watch the show or something. The dude had so many outs, and never took them until he ruined everything.