T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
9,118
Unintentionally torturing thousands of people, so much so that they wish for death, still makes you a terrible person, yes.

All our actions every day have knock on effects that contribute to the suffering of others and animals including what products we buy, including technology where the miners for the elements used for the microchips are children, and the people assembling them have committed suicide. Yet we still buy an iPhone, PS5, Xbox and a Switch. We are terrible people, all of us for contributing to that.

Yes Wanda is more in direct control, and she shouldn't go unpunished.

However one her defence whenever Wanda gets told what she's doing is wrong Agnes distracts her from stopping the Hex. However when Agnes isn't the issue and the townspeople tell her what's happening she immediately attempts to help them escape the Hex.

IMO she's still a good person, not that there shouldn't be consequences for her.

Unfortunately this time there's gonna be consequences for all Mutants and super powered beings in that a strong vocal minority won't trust them after this incident.
 

Plinkerton

Member
Nov 4, 2017
6,104
I think an interesting comparison for Wanda in terms of their roles as "hero" or "villain" and their redemption arcs is Loki.

Like he was a character who tries to instigate alien invasion of Earth and has tried to kill his brother multiple times. And yet people still love him and he's getting his own show.

I can see her story from this point on following a similar trajectory to Loki's post-Avengers 1.
 

davepoobond

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,839
www.squackle.com
Something I'm confused about, in the first episode the cops said Westview doesn't exist, but it clearly does before and after the hex goes up. What's the deal with that?

also What witness was the FBI trying to find? They didn't bring that up again either
 

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,483
Something I'm confused about, in the first episode the cops said Westview doesn't exist, but it clearly does before and after the hex goes up. What's the deal with that?

also What witness was the FBI trying to find? They didn't bring that up again either

Yeah I was confused about that too. I thought they said there was a town called Eastview and Westview didn't exist. Yet in the flashbacks Wanda enters Westview and then also leaves it at the end.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
The minute she was confronted by the harm she was causing, she lashed out, chained everyone by their neck, and made them hit the ground.
The irony of that example is that is was a direct example of showing her intuitive control that she doesn't really understand she has the power to do.

She isn't gesturing to choke them, she just screams out in pain and subconsciously casts the spell. You can even see her gesturing with her hands around her own throat like she was feeling like she was being choked or unheard. Then when she sees the people choking, she doesn't even realize that it is from her magic until she looks at her hands and realizes it is something she did.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,445
I mean, we don't know that they're calling out to her. She could be remembering them as she studies the Darkhold. There's just as much evidence for that as for your version. *shrugs*

Yes.... they used the final stinger of the series to show Scarlett Witch reading the Darkhold, a magical book of the damned/dead while merely having a memory of her children calling out for help.... and of course the look of surprise when she heard their voices is just a coincidence.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Something I'm confused about, in the first episode the cops said Westview doesn't exist, but it clearly does before and after the hex goes up. What's the deal with that?

also What witness was the FBI trying to find? They didn't bring that up again either
It was to show that even people that were tangentially connected to people in Westview had his minds' wiped of knowledge of the people or town, just like they said the missing person's own family and friends claim they didn't even know who the person is.
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,751
Yes.... they used the final stinger of the series to show Scarlett Witch reading the Darkhold, a magical book of the damned/dead while merely having a memory of her children calling out for help.... and of course the look of surprise when she heard their voices is just a coincidence.

Because, of course, who else could Evan Phillips possibly be but the Fox Quicksilver, brough to the MCU by Wanda, I mean Agatha, and he's going to have another sweet dreams moment. And Magneto's going to show up, and say he's her father, just like it is in the comics, I mean, like it was in the comics. Or maybe Stewart's professor x. Even tho he said he turned Feige down. And she's gonna be told she's a mutant, and then Nightmare's going to show up, and Dr. Strange is going to be in the finale. People's track record with this show is abysmal. You'll forgive me for being skeptical now.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Something I'm confused about, in the first episode the cops said Westview doesn't exist, but it clearly does before and after the hex goes up. What's the deal with that?
Jimmy's board note that anyone within a five-mile radius has selective amnesia about the place. It probably only works if you're not actually focused on the Hex. Sort of a "the mind slides off it if you're not directly looking" thing.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,773
Canada
The irony of that example is that is was a direct example of showing her intuitive control that she doesn't really understand she has the power to do.

She isn't gesturing to choke them, she just screams out in pain and subconsciously casts the spell. You can even see her gesturing with her hands around her own throat like she was feeling like she was being choked or unheard. Then when she sees the people choking, she doesn't even realize that it is from her magic until she looks at her hands and realizes it is something she did.
Not sure what's ironic about it, never claimed that she wasn't doing things unintentionally. It just doesn't matter.

All our actions every day have knock on effects that contribute to the suffering of others and animals including what products we buy, including technology where the miners for the elements used for the microchips are children, and the people assembling them have committed suicide. Yet we still buy an iPhone, PS5, Xbox and a Switch. We are terrible people, all of us for contributing to that.

Yes Wanda is more in direct control, and she shouldn't go unpunished.

However one her defence whenever Wanda gets told what she's doing is wrong Agnes distracts her from stopping the Hex. However when Agnes isn't the issue and the townspeople tell her what's happening she immediately attempts to help them escape the Hex.

IMO she's still a good person, not that there shouldn't be consequences for her.

Unfortunately this time there's gonna be consequences for all Mutants and super powered beings in that a strong vocal minority won't trust them after this incident.
I'm sorry, this is not an okay comparison to make, that's a really messed up way to excuse a fictional character.
 
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excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,445
Because, of course, who else could Evan Phillips possibly be but the Fox Quicksilver, brough to the MCU by Wanda, I mean Agatha, and he's going to have another sweet dreams moment. And Magneto's going to show up, and say he's her father, just like it is in the comics, I mean, like it was in the comics. Or maybe Stewart's professor x. Even tho he said he turned Feige down. And she's gonna be told she's a mutant, and then Nightmare's going to show up, and Dr. Strange is going to be in the finale. People's track record with this show is abysmal. You'll forgive me for being skeptical now.

Are you having a stroke?
 

davepoobond

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,839
www.squackle.com
Jimmy's board note that anyone within a five-mile radius has selective amnesia about the place. It probably only works if you're not actually focused on the Hex. Sort of a "the mind slides off it if you're not directly looking" thing.

strange, I guess they needed some sort of thin reason to make people not immediately freak out about a pocket dimension and just glossed over it real quick
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,445
And we're done here. Toodles.

Dude the end stinger is literally her kids calling to her through the Darkhold... and you're here saying it's probably just a memory because Magneto and Xavier didn't show up....

If she was remembering her kids why would she be surprised to hear them calling for help.... and if she was just remembering her kids why would she chose to remember them calling for help in distress...

Like come on... it's the end of series stinger....

There's a huge difference between fanwank based off crumbs... and blatantly obvious set up in a to be continued stinger.
 
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Alien Bob

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,513
I find "People were wrong about obviously wrong fan speculation, therefore anything and everything can possibly happen and your predictions about where these characters will go even when it's spelled out is also wrong" to be a fascinating argument.

From now on whenever someone tells me I'm wrong about anything I'll just reply with "Yes, but people thought Fietro was Fox Quicksilver too, so take that to the bank, daddy-o!"
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,171
I feel like there's a misunderstanding on what denial is. Yes, she was choosing her fantasy world over the reality of what she was doing. That is what people in denial do. Again, the minute she is actually confronted by the harm she's doing, she immediately tries to undo it.

This is true. But I think a lot of people are using the "denial" excuse to claim that Wanda didn't realize what she was doing. When, no, the show told us that she knew what she was doing.

Denial works for Wanda processing her grief. Denial does not work for assessing Wanda's actions. She knew what she was doing, and she knew it was wrong. Again, her not knowing that her psychological enslavement was causing actual pain to Westview residents does not make her psychological enslavement anymore ok. It was still bad. She was still "bad."
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,751
I find "People were wrong about obviously wrong fan speculation, therefore anything and everything can possibly happen and your predictions about where these characters will go even when it's spelled out is also wrong" to be a fascinating argument.

From now on whenever someone tells me I'm wrong about anything I'll just reply with "Yes, but people thought Fietro was Fox Quicksilver too, so take that to the bank, daddy-o!"

Skeptical=/wrong.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
This is true. But I think a lot of people are using the "denial" excuse to claim that Wanda didn't realize what she was doing. When, no, the show told us that she knew what she was doing.

Denial works for Wanda processing her grief. Denial does not work for assessing Wanda's actions. She knew what she was doing, and she knew it was wrong. Again, her not knowing that her psychological enslavement was causing actual pain to Westview residents does not make her psychological enslavement anymore ok. It was still bad. She was still "bad."

so she should be getting therapy rather than put behind bars
 

Ravenwraith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,397
Decided to take a couple of days to collect my thoughts. Overall I'd say there was more good than bad but the finale seems engineered to spotlight the worst aspects of the show and leave a bad taste in your mouth.

The first three episodes are fun because the performances and production are all really earnest in it's implementation and seeing them live a regular domestic life kind of fills the void the movies left in this relationship. Elizabeth Olsen is killing it in this part of the show specifically too so it's hard not to get enthusiastic about it along with her. In terms of jokes you're probably better off just watching the shows they're riffing on but the unsettling atmosphere throughout the whole thing makes up for it. The big problem I had with it was that it's not really tied as meaningfully to the main emotional arc of the story as I would like. The bit with the dog was good but I feel like all of these sitcom episodes should have been headed that way in a more subtle way the entire time.

Then we're introduced to Monica and the rest of the side cast and while I think there was a strong start here none of it pays off super well. Monica's first couple of scenes are well done but I think the show really lets her down after that. I think she would have worked better as more of a foil than a supporting character. Someone who could empathize with Wanda's pain but contrast her by showing her it's not okay to lash out at the rest of the world over it. Instead it feels like Monica plays softball with her even as Wanda chucks her around like a ragdoll with her powers. I just don't really get it since they don't personally know eachother. Their conversation at the end that everyone has already brought up sums up all the problems I had with her.I also don't think spectrum's powers were introduced in a cool way. It felt kind of underwhelming/cheap honestly. Overall this felt like the wrong place to introduce this character.

I don't get the hype for Jimmy Woo but he's not in it that much so it's not a big deal. Darcy is always fun. Hayward pivots hard from being an extremist to just being cartoonishly evil at the end which I thought was kinda lame. I'm surprised he got arrested too. Was it not the govt's intent to have their own Vision? Did he only catch heat because it got loose?

The part that got me really into the show was Wanda stepping outside the hex to draw a line in the sand. She really was in control this whole time and genuinely believed what she was doing was okay. She was definitely making a huge mistake with all this and that made me like her as a character even more than I already did. The anxiety the government had toward her is partially justified which makes the conflict that much richer.

The fight with Vision once he realizes what's going on is definitely my favorite scene in this series and probably a contender for one of the best scenes Marvel studios. Using the character's powers in subtle, clever ways to heighten the tension of what is a real, ugly argument between two people who want to just be happy together. It's also just cool to see the person Wanda loves the most call her out.

I'm glad Evan Peters got to be in the show just for the hell of it and I enjoyed his performance but i was disappointed that we didn't dig a little deeper into what Wanda's brother meant to her. Wanda seems to catch onto the fact that something's off about him in the halloween episode but he's...kinda gone from the show after that. Even the deep dive into her backstory doesn't really leverage him that much.

And I mean...sure, the X Men stuff was a stretch, but a boner joker? Really? I'm an Iron Man 3 stan and I thought that was lame, sorry lol.

Overall I think this show's strong suit in terms of conflict were tense verbal confrontations and more lowkey mindfuckery which is why it's weird to see them fall back on more traditional fight scenes in the end. Vision beating his doppleganger through debate was a cool moment and I think Wanda vs Agatha would have been better if they had done something similar and saved the flash for one of the more actiony series coming up. Like, Agatha highlighting the citizens of westview's agony and using it against Wanda and Wanda turning the runes around on her were cool, but there's a whole lot of magic flinging between all that that just isn't that interesting? idk.

In general I was kind of let down by Agatha as a character. The actress was great, but she just turned out to be way more shallow than I was anticipating. She was just picking Wanda's brain to find the source of her power. Grossly intrusive for sure but as long as Wanda is occupying people's minds it's not like she can talk lol. I'm glad the showrunners didn't kill her off, but what Wanda decided to do with her instead read as a little extreme, given the effects her mind hexes have on people.

As messy as the finale was I think it did get the one scene it needed to nail right: The goodbye to Vision and the kids. It was just as bittersweet as it needed to be. Both actors did a great job but Paul is scarily on point as Vision sometimes. He's a natural fit.

But yeah, like I said the framing around Wanda toward the end is a little too heroic for my liking. It's good that she's got her shit together now but she willingly did a lot of terrible things before she got to that point. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they''ll respond to this in some way next time she appears but it was strange to watch here.

They seem to be implying with the White Vision and the teaser that Wanda can get everything she lost back in the end. I'd rather her just move on and focus on gaining complete control over her abilities. Maybe that's what will happen. The White Vision couldn't really replace the old one in the comics and the same might apply here. Maybe the voice of her kids calling out to her might be some kind of malicious entity baiting Wanda into making another mistake. Whatever they decide to do I hope they don't undercut this series too much. For all it's faults I think it's heart was in the right place.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,773
Canada
It does matter since your entire framing of the moment is that she "lashed out" and it therefore undermines your point.
My point was that the first thing she did when confronted wasn't freeing them, the first thing she did was deny, blame someone else, gaslight, all of these things would be considered lashing out, and then chaining them putting them to the ground, then she decided to free them. Her unintentionally using her powers doesn't mean anything when the end result is these people still being put in pain.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
This is true. But I think a lot of people are using the "denial" excuse to claim that Wanda didn't realize what she was doing. When, no, the show told us that she knew what she was doing.

Denial works for Wanda processing her grief. Denial does not work for assessing Wanda's actions. She knew what she was doing, and she knew it was wrong. Again, her not knowing that her psychological enslavement was causing actual pain to Westview residents does not make her psychological enslavement anymore ok. It was still bad. She was still "bad."
It probably wasn't just standard denial caused from grief but some degree of psychosis since all throughout the series to the very end she seems to have a non-complete understanding of her involvement or understanding of her own powers and a disconnect that she is even capable of what she is doing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,908
I haven't read many other reactions yet but the last two episodes were definitely a disappointment after a very strong season overall.

I feel they came on too strong with Agatha at the end. Maintaining some subtlety even when it was revealed she was the "villain" would have helped a lot.. And yeah Agatha's plan seemed both elaborate and non-sensical. And by turning Agatha into a cartoon villain the last two episodes, it made it seem the writers wanted us to think Wanda was the good person when she had mentally and physically violated an entire town. If they wanted to portray Wanda as a "grey" character then don't just throw her next to a pure black/white character in the final episode

Good and entertaining season, but weak finish. And unfortunately the weak finish does take away a bit from the earlier episodes. That's the downside when you don't stick the landing in a mystery.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
My point was that the first thing she did when confronted wasn't freeing them, the first thing she did was deny, blame someone else, gaslight, all of these things would be considered lashing out, and then chaining them putting them to the ground, then she decided to free them. Her unintentionally using her powers doesn't mean anything when the end result is these people still being put in pain.
You do recognize that it wasn't intentional her use of her powers though, do you not? That goes along with her unintentional control of them in the Hex, her mentally trying to protect her ego that she wasn't a bad person like they say as she tries to grapple with the reality of what she is responsible for and what that means is not the same as her lashing out. She wasn't attacking them, she was defensive and trying to rationalize her own actions. It's not a light switch where she simply has to be told what she is doing, but she has to realize and accept reality, which even when we see Monica and Vision trying to get through to her, her own mental blocks and psychosis make it difficult for her to understand and accept what she was doing.
 

MHWilliams

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Oct 25, 2017
10,473

WrenchNinja

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Oct 25, 2017
18,773
Canada
You do recognize that it wasn't intentional her use of her powers though, do you not? That goes along with her unintentional control of them in the Hex, her mentally trying to protect her ego that she wasn't a bad person like they say as she tries to grapple with the reality of what she is responsible for and what that means is not the same as her lashing out. She wasn't attacking them, she was defensive and trying to rationalize her own actions. It's not a light switch where she simply has to be told what she is doing, but she has to realize and accept reality, which even when we see Monica and Vision trying to get through to her, her own mental blocks and psychosis make it difficult for her to understand and accept what she was doing.
This whole conversation started because I reject the idea that she isn't a terrible people just because she unintentionally did these things. It does not matter that she's unintentionally doing these things, the end result is thousands of people tortured. She's responsible for that, and making excuses for it is ridiculous.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
This whole conversation started because I reject the idea that she isn't a terrible people just because she unintentionally did these things. It does not matter that she's unintentionally doing these things, the end result is thousands of people tortured. She's responsible for that, and making excuses for it is ridiculous.
Intent absolutely does matter.

If someone intended to run a person over with a car, it's murder. We don't treat it as the same situation as someone losing control of their car as it hydroplanes or slips over ice and runs someone over. If someone was recklessly driving, it might be something like manslaughter, where they didn't intend to kill someone but their careless actions lead to the result of someone dying.

Wanda didn't know that her powers were capable of such a thing, and even up until the point she ends the Hex she still really doesn't quite understand so there likely is some sort of disassociative disorder there with how difficult it was for her to grasp her own role and her disconnection from reality. It would be like someone drugging her without her knowledge and her driving and killing someone. Maybe at points her brain registered her role in what was happening, but her defensiveness and protectiveness was more of an instinctive response than one she was fully conscious of, and she was not conscious enough to recognize the consequences of those actions.

Your black and white view of the world is rather bizarre. A person is terrible regardless of any context of their actions whatsoever.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,509
Providence, RI
Rewatched it and still feeling disappointed. Was hoping my mind would be changed on some stuff but it didn't happen. The Fietro twist is terrible. Monica was completely sidelined. The side characters were largely thrown away with awkward nothing endings.

Incredible series overall with a disappointing finale.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
If someone intended to run a person over with a car, it's murder. We don't treat it as the same situation as someone losing control of their car as it hydroplanes or slips over ice and runs someone over. If someone was recklessly driving, it might be something like manslaughter, where they didn't intend to kill someone but their careless actions lead to the result of someone dying.
In this analogy, that person didn't intend to run over someone, but they did commit a hit and run.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,773
Canada
Intent absolutely does matter.

If someone intended to run a person over with a car, it's murder. We don't treat it as the same situation as someone losing control of their car as it hydroplanes or slips over ice and runs someone over. If someone was recklessly driving, it might be something like manslaughter, where they didn't intend to kill someone but their careless actions lead to the result of someone dying.

Wanda didn't know that her powers were capable of such a thing, and even up until the point she ends the Hex she still really doesn't quite understand so there likely is some sort of disassociative disorder there with how difficult it was for her to grasp her own role and her disconnection from reality. It would be like someone drugging her without her knowledge and her driving and killing someone. Maybe at points her brain registered her role in what was happening, but her defensiveness and protectiveness was more of an instinctive response than one she was fully conscious of, and she was not conscious enough to recognize the consequences of those actions.

Your black and white view of the world is rather bizarre. A person is terrible regardless of any context of their actions whatsoever.
Yeah, to courts.

Tell that to the victims. None of those scenarios are even remotely equivalent to what she did.

She knew she could mind control people since AoU, don't give me that. She knew by episode 3 that things were off. By episode 5 Vision told her about Norm. By episode 6 she admitted she was responsible to Fietro and asking if he thought it was okay. Just plain rationalization.

My black and white view? Somethings are wrong and right. You're making excuses and trying to find moral ambiguity for mass torture. This is not petty theft, these people wanted to die because of what she was doing. No amount of good intentions or context excuses that.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,351
Rewatched it and still feeling disappointed. Was hoping my mind would be changed on some stuff but it didn't happen. The Fietro twist is terrible. Monica was completely sidelined. The side characters were largely thrown away with awkward nothing endings.

Incredible series overall with a disappointing finale.

I'm not sure Monica was sidelined as much as didn't need to be in the show at all, but was put in as a convenient way to get a mini-origin and prep for Cap Marvel 2. She basically has zero bearing on anything that happens.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,171
It probably wasn't just standard denial caused from grief but some degree of psychosis since all throughout the series to the very end she seems to have a non-complete understanding of her involvement or understanding of her own powers and a disconnect that she is even capable of what she is doing.

Yeah, no no no, this does not work.

I'm sorry, and I'm a fan of Wanda too, but for reasons I've listened already, Wanda has let on that she KNOWS the consequences of her magic on the people of Westview. She knows she's controllling them. She knows they've been robbed of their autonomy. Her reasoning relies on the belief that her subjugation wasn't "hurting" them. But that doesn't matter. you're still robbing them of their autonomy.
 
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MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,351
Yeah, no no no, this does not work.

I'm sorry, and I'm a fan of Wanda too, but for reasons I've listened already, Wanda has let on that she KNOWS the consequences of her magic on the people of Westview. She knows she's controllling them. She knows they've been robbed of their autonomy. Her reasoning relies on the belief that her subjugation wasn't "hurting" them. But that doesn't matter. you're still robbing them of their autonomy.

Initially she didn't. Then she had an inkling but wasn't sure. Then she had more of an idea but was likely in denial because she had Vision and her kids to focus on. Then she totally knew and was maybe slightly torn but her family and desire to keep that together after all her losses overcame that.

When she finally faced up to it, she did the right thing.

Very little of that was premeditated. Mostly driven through subconcious, then grief and denial. She was totally a victim, as were the residents of Westview

I would have perhaps liked a little cleanup with her perhaps getting people to totally forget the past week (or however long it was) so they aren't remembering what they endured, but perhaps that would be too neat and tidy and sometimes it is better not to have a bow on it
 

Mariachi507

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,379
Wow, people are really upset about Wanda's actions, aren't they? People, we're not electing her for office or anything like that, she can just exist as a morally complicated character. There's a lot of gold to mine from complicated characters. This is storytelling.


You and I are eye to eye on most of your thoughts. However, I just finished the show and should probably stew in it for a bit. I watched in three blocks, three episodes each time. This final third of the show did not live up to the first six episodes.

Hayward was laughably bad as a villain at the end. That scene with Woo and cell phone was atrociously bad.

As for Agatha, I love the actress and her performance is a lot of fun, but the writing let her down. Here I was hoping that the MCU was passed having their heroes fight evil versions of themselves in an overdone cg fest, but here we are. It's Obediah all over again.

I'm also an Iron Man 3 stan and don't normally care about "comic book bullshit", but the Quicksilver thing rubbed me wrong, I think because it seems like an unfulfilled potential that was replaced and served absolutely nothing. At least Evan got to sort of do his thing one more time.

I think my main issue comes from how interesting the setup was for the show, but by the end it's just another piece of superhero media, complete with the characters throwing lines at each other in a big cg fight scene.

In a vacuum, the goodbye to the family scene was alright, it didn't work as well for me as it did for you unfortunately. I don't feel the final episodes put in the work to elicit the emotions the scene was asking for. This scene was basically telegraphed from the beginning of the show, but I was hoping the climax would be smaller in scale and more personal, with Wanda coming to terms with her actions over time before doing the right thing. To have it deal more with the fantasy vs the reality as a way to explore grief and loss. It's there somewhat, but happens so quickly because we needed a witch fight apparently. So much for those lynchian comparisons that were thrown around early on. That just reminded me of the table scene in episode one that was so terrifying and tragic. Oh well. The journey is still there, and it was a good one for most of it.

I think I'll collect my thoughts on it and maybe give a final reflection down the road. I know it was good enough to make me invested and excited about it, which I had no interest in doing with the MCU after Endgame. So, that's saying something for its quality, especially early on.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,121
also What witness was the FBI trying to find? They didn't bring that up again either

It's implied to be fake Pietro/Ralph Bohner. When Monica is held captive by fake Pietro, she finds a headshot of him with the name Ralph Bohner and him giggling "heh Boner". Given the amusement at his own name, it's safe to say that the documents Monica was looking at were a fake identity portfolio.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,575
I was pretty bummed out that Agatha ended up being a somewhat mediocre villain. This is pretty common for MCU so I'm not too surprised but Kathryn Hahn was so great up until the last two episodes. Just evil for the sake of being evil, really.

i think they just fumbled the execution because they desperately wanted more contrast between Wanda and Agatha's actions- for whatever reason. I guess they think needed to make things black and white for the viewer. Ok

Agatha has a dark lust for power, but she also viewed neutralizing Wanda as necessary for saving the world. This dynamic does exist ("you don't know how dangerous you are", "you have no idea what you've unleashed", "you're going to need me"), but it was overshadowed by the Saturday cartoon dialog and direction of the last hour.

at the last minute, the show wants to tell me that Agatha needs to be stopped- but everything they've shown up until the climax of the fight suggests that the world would be in better hands if Agatha had Wanda's power- that Agatha was absolutely right to see Wanda as unworthy.

They ALMOST created this scenario where audiences would have this conflict of sympathizing with the protagonist whilst reluctantly agreeing with the antagonists goal, if not the methods- and that would have been really bold for the MCU. Then they depicted kids getting strangled so that things would be simple for the audience again. Too bad. They similarly ruined Killmonger in Black Panther.
 
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excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
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Oct 25, 2017
73,445
It's implied to be fake Pietro/Ralph Bohner. When Monica is held captive by fake Pietro, she finds a headshot of him with the name Ralph Bohner and him giggling "heh Boner". Given the amusement at his own name, it's safe to say that the documents Monica was looking at were a fake identity portfolio.

He was under mind control.

Probably didn't know he was Ralph Bohner
 

Dark_Castle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,147
And take her to a room with runes and tell her about how you lured her there so she couldn't use magic because of said runes, then leave that room so you can have a magic battle with someone that is supposed to be way more powerful than you and just hope your magic absorbing powers work and she doesn't cast her own runes in the Hex she built.

She could have just been snacking on Wanda's cute Bewitched magic to drain her power, but instead she threw herself into the deep end with what she says is a mythical magical being.

iu

You could probably justify Agatha's questionable plans to her sadistic nature of wanting to torture and tease Wanda before absorbing her magic for herself , and her curiosity of Wanda's strength and potential. Or maybe in order for one to steal the other's power, the victim needs to use their power first? We see the witches in the flashback only get their power absorbed by Agatha after they attack her. Not sure.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,756
I think an interesting comparison for Wanda in terms of their roles as "hero" or "villain" and their redemption arcs is Loki.

Like he was a character who tries to instigate alien invasion of Earth and has tried to kill his brother multiple times. And yet people still love him and he's getting his own show.

I can see her story from this point on following a similar trajectory to Loki's post-Avengers 1.

Viewers love him, but Thor didn't say to Loki "I understood why you did it, good luck" and let him fly off. Nobody left the cinema after Avengers saying "I totally get where Loki was coming from." His redemption comes later, and even then he is redeemed somewhat in only Thor and Frigga's eyes, not anyone else's. Everybody from Earth still hates his guts.

Which brings me back to a point always worth reiterating: It doesn't so much matter what we think of Wanda, the debate about her actions is compelling and worth having. What's actually important is how the characters in the story react to her. Which as has been noted repeatedly in this thread: poorly.

I would have gladly had the writers ditch White Vision from the narrative entirely in order to free up space to have more scenes of Monica to flesh out her subplot. The townfolk said they were having Wanda's nightmares, so what a shame we never got a scene of Monica experiencing that, in order to properly sell her abysmal line in the ending.

Tone is also important in conveying intent to an audience. I.e - a triumphant camera panning down on a crime scene with pleasant music indicating the bad people have been vanquished cliched bullshit. The director is as much to blame for the tonally weird ending of the show, as much as the writers.

We'll likely get a more satisfactory glimpse into how characters regard Wanda in Dr Strange 2, than in her own damn TV show, which is a shame.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
Oh I completely agree. I think what she does to Agatha is really fucked up. Does the show? Or does the show think a villain got her just desserts? The tone of the last ten minutes of that episode sure feels like the latter

The show keeps saying things in its text that point towards how fucked up everything is and then framing it completely inconsistently in a way that communicates sympathy for Wanda for "what she had to go through" and not a lot of sympathy for anyone else
100% this is the main problem with the show. The other problem of course being how underwritten Monica is.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
No way? To me he seems to go for Tony's "cocky, charismatic douche" persona but kinda fails at the "charismatic" part.
Sam is built up as a very modest, self-sacrificing guy who has always tried to do the right thing, even when it's inconvenient or difficult. He was running a support group for veterans suffering from guilt and PTSD. He happily lost everything to help people, even when the governments of the world told him he couldn't. He's got some sass to him, but it's not usually cocky. He's one of the first to admit his limitations.
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The minute she was confronted by the harm she was causing, she lashed out, chained everyone by their neck, and made them hit the ground.

Not understanding that you're doing something terrible doesn't make you not a terrible person for doing it.
She was responding by instinct and emotion, and clearly doesn't have control over her abilities.

A lot of people here are misunderstanding that. She's not intentionally doing a lot of this stuff. For awhile, she was in denial that any of this was even REAL and was just as lost in the delusion as anyone else.
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So let's look at it from another Marvel hero lens - THE HULK. Do we view the Hulk as a "villain" when so much of what he does is driven purely by a power and strength beyond his means of control? Bruce is constantly guilted by the harm and damage he's done and spends so much of his time trying to suppress his powers, afraid of what his Hulk persona will do. He's hunted by the government. He's (rightly) labelled an insanely dangerous threat to the world. But we're sympathetic towards him because it's not something he was able to rein in. Even when pointed in the right direction, we see him very ashamed of who he used to be later on.
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Wanda is similar. She's got an untold amount of power - to do both good and harm - and little knowledge and ability to control it. It works by reflex, not by will. When Hulk gets angry, Hulk Smash. When Wanda gets sad, Wanda Hex. And she doesn't like it, doesn't understand it, doesn't want to wrestle with it, doesn't want to struggle with it. She just slips into a state of denial to run away from her problems, but does ultimately do the right thing and take the steps needed to getting it under control. That doesn't absolve her of the damage she's done, anymore than Hulk should be absolved, but that's what makes her complicated, damaged, and ultimately a far more interesting character. She is not always right, even when she WAS in control.

I'm very excited to see how things are going to shape up in the future. Wanda's gone through a lot of loss, and it remains to be seen if she'll get better or if ultimate power corrupts ultimately.
 
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Slyonic

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,353
You mean the purple around their eyes? The same thing doesn't happen to The Ancient One, she just had the symbol to summon Dormammu on her forehead. That's why I think it could just be tied directly to drawing power from Dormammu himself, and not necessarily from the Dark Dimension.

There's got to be a difference between those two, though. Because why does Kaecilius get the eyes, but The Ancient One doesn't? Iirc the Ancient One says she only taps into the Dark Dimension.
Kaecilius on the other hand is fully devoted to Dormammu, drawing from Dormammu himself.
Either way, Agatha would need to have the mark on her forehead if she used power from the Dark Dimension.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,756
Sam is built up as a very modest, self-sacrificing guy who has always tried to do the right thing, even when it's inconvenient or difficult. He was running a support group for veterans suffering from guilt and PTSD. He happily lost everything to help people, even when the governments of the world told him he couldn't. He's got some sass to him, but it's not usually cocky. He's one of the first to admit his limitations.
f7r2ftpov7a41.png

captain-america-winter-soldier-anthony-mackie-sam-wilson.gif

a53e87c3c495f28266fc22dee37f122e8d410a71r1-500-205_hq.gif

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Steve-and-Sam-Avengers-Endgame-2019-avengers-infinity-war-1-and-2-42932435-268-200.gif



She was responding by instinct and emotion, and clearly doesn't have control over her abilities.

A lot of people here are misunderstanding that. She's not intentionally doing a lot of this stuff. For awhile, she was in denial that any of this was even REAL and was just as lost in the delusion as anyone else.
wandavision-wanda-episode-one-gif.gif


So let's look at it from another Marvel hero lens - THE HULK. Do we view the Hulk as a "villain" when so much of what he does is driven purely by a power and strength beyond his means of control? Bruce is constantly guilted by the harm and damage he's done and spends so much of his time trying to suppress his powers, afraid of what his Hulk persona will do. He's hunted by the government. He's (rightly) labelled an insanely dangerous threat to the world. But we're sympathetic towards him because it's not something he was able to rein in. Even when pointed in the right direction, we see him very ashamed of who he used to be later on.
m51s05hm4ck31.jpg


Wanda is similar. She's got an untold amount of power - to do both good and harm - and little knowledge and ability to control it. It works by reflex, not by will. When Hulk gets angry, Hulk Smash. When Wanda gets sad, Wanda Hex. And she doesn't like it, doesn't understand it, doesn't want to wrestle with it, doesn't want to struggle with it. She just slips into a state of denial to run away from her problems, but does ultimately do the right thing and take the steps needed to getting it under control. That doesn't absolve her of the damage she's done, anymore than Hulk should be absolved, but that's what makes her complicated, damaged, and ultimately a far more interesting character. She is not always right, even when she WAS in control.

How do you feel about Wanda inflicting that horrific punishment on Agatha at the end? Perhaps she's not as noble as you want her to be.

As others have noted, she's shown self-awareness numerous times throughout the show, and even at the end, after everything, she still chooses to repeat the same sin against Agatha.

And what is Agatha supposed to do now? She's literally homeless. Where is this fictional character meant to live? She's not from Westview.

And you may retort that a SWORD prison could not hold a powerful witch, but the writers could have pulled out any other spell out of their ass to ensure Agatha was neutralised. They chose to have Wanda repeat the assault of another person's mind and body without their consent. AGAIN. No lessons learned for Wanda.

I like the interesting discussions such a character can provoke, but I always do a double-take at people defending her actions in this story. She's a selfish character. And that's ok. It makes her interesting. Especially now that her fate is in her own hands instead of others.

What she did was inexcusable though (just like what Loki did to NY was), and claiming 'she didn't fully know' is not only a flimsy excuse, but actively betrays her character arc in the story. If she didn't fully know, then what's the point of telling this story in the first place? If she only woke up in the climax of the tale, then what even was her journey?

Every time she rewrote or manipulated her reality, from episode 1 onwards, she knew where she was and what she was doing. She chose to pretend nobody was being hurt, until Agatha's mob gave her no choice but to relent.

I look forward to other more capable writers handling her character and providing us with a more tonally and thematically consistent journey.