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Warhorse; the studio behind Kingdom Come Deliverance will announce their new game on April 18th at 20 CEST
- Thread starter Reckheim
- Start date
User warned: sniping at other members over a series of posts; you are more than welcome to criticize the game but DO NOT make it personal
I don't know, but the alt-right and gamergate crowds both seem to love it since it came out, for all the love it has for (and solely for) white manly men, only has women where they belong (so stables and kitchens, mostly, and to reward you for your work) and no pesky other colors, sexes or identities around. IDK if you'd call this type of white eurocentric faux-history fetishization racist, but I can confirm a heap of definitively racist reddit/twitter people do love this game in particular a lot. Make of that what you will.
Content of this game aside. Those kinds of people also love games like Crusader Kings, Hearts of Iron, Mount and Blade, Warhammer stuff etc. Are all those games racist as well? Racists liking a game does not make it racist or problematic on it's own.
If I'm not mistaken, none of these games or ips prevent you from playing a different ethnicity, or completely erase them. The comparison isn't great apart from "is knights I guess".
Warhammer has famously many, not only human, but all kinds of races (and of course, within the human race, black people, women, non-binary characters as well). Crusader Kings lets you play all kinds of characters, from Muslim to Ethophian, pretty sure the same goes for HoI, Mount & Blade literally has character creation with many skin colors to choose from. So this is a pretty disingenuous take.
The only game coming to mind that's as straight-up white as KCD in a remotely similar genre would be The Witcher. And, again, make of that what you will.
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As I said my comment was not about the content of the game which I totally get why some people take issue with, but rather just that it being popular in alt right crowds does not mean that it is racist or sexist. A lot of those people do love games that are "is knight I guess" and you can play as a white man of course.
As a side note "prevent you from playing a different ethnicity" feels like a deliberately inflammatory way to put that. You play as a set character (aside from the woman you play in the DLC). Every single game with a set white protagonist "prevent you from playing a different ethnicity". Uncharted, Life is Strange, Super Mario...
Yeah, I could see the Super Mario comparison coming a mile away, and you can't possibly tell me you're legitimately thinking that's a good argument for anything. Of course you're playing as the whitest of characters. What does that change about the rest of the world and setting?
Racist subreddits and CapG Gamers don't push for any random "knights" game because whatever, but maybe you can show me. They are, and have been, and will be, deliberatly loud about and pushing Kindom Come though, ofc among other games. Suprisingly also those that let you straight-up play the third reich, yes.
I don browse those forums so I don't know how loud they are about various games, but I do know that the games I mentioned in my original comment are very popular in those circles.
The Super Mario reference was meant as a joke (it was why I added the ...). I probably wasn't clear enough about that. My point about the phrase was not though which you ignored. Preventing you from playing a different ethnicity is a weird accusation in a game with a set protagonist. Wanting a protagonist of color is a reasonable wish just to head off that right now.
I did not. As I said, the main character is just one character of the world, but a good indicator. That doesn't justify the entire rest of a game's cast, npcs, background characters and world, where all those other games have few issues either.
As I said I totally get why people take issue with the content of the game. My point was just that trying to say that the game has a white main character by saying "it prevents you from playing a difference ethnicity" felt like a phrasing that was deliberately meant to be misleading and inflammatory. It was also as I said just a side note and not that big of a deal.
Yeah. I was thinking "day 1" when I first saw this but actually no lol
I only played KC:D in 2022, but I've since seen what some day 1 streamers had to deal with.
User banned (2 months): dismissing concerns around representation
It doesn't, although being historically accurate will have people saying the game is racist
We can, at the very least, call KC:D pretty goddamn sexist (the base game) due to how it chooses to write women, and that is certainly a direct reflection of Vavra's views. It's really not unlike The Witcher (game series), which also started off sexist as fuck and got "better" with each entry (although Witcher 3 still has issues) and I think it's fair to hope that KC:D continues to improve as more games are being made.
Also, the stance from Vavra about POC not being "historically accurate" is, of course, represented in the game itself. We also know that's a lie and it's a historically inaccurate portrayal, as Eurogamer went out of their way to interview a subject matter expert about the historical accuracy:
"We know of African kings in Constantinople on pilgrimage to Spain; we know of black Moors in Spain; we know of extensive travel of Jews from the courts of Cordoba and Damascus; we also know of black people in large cities in Germany," the historian, Sean Miller, tells me. Czech cities Olomouc and Prague were on the famous Silk Road which facilitated the trade of goods all over the world. If you plot a line between them, it runs directly through the area recreated in Kingdom Come. "You just can't know nobody got sick and stayed a longer time," he says. "What if a group of black Africans came through and stayed at an inn and someone got pregnant? Even one night is enough for a pregnancy."
So at the very least the game purposefully diminished the role and presence of POC in those times in order to make (mostly) an all white male-focused fantasy game.
It's not necessarily historically accurate though, see above.
A "soft" criticism at the game is that it minimizes and erases the historical presence of POC during that time period.
It's actually historically inaccurate.
It's not like it's the first problematic game to get massively popular, basically CDPR's whole game catalog has a ton of issues in each entry (with Witcher 3 maybe being the least egregious) and I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with enjoying those games, but we can all recognize that they have pretty big blind spots and hope things improve in future entries.
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It's not even historically accurate. People of color have existed in Europe for centuries. They didn't just magically appear out of nowhere.
POC in rural Czechia is a rare sighting in 2024. Imagine in 1404.
People who never played the game have a hard time understanding the game is not set in Prague. The game is set in the countryside of Bohemia with a few small villages that until today are extremely small.
Rattay today has 600 inhabitants. Talmberg has 40 people living in it. How many black people do you expect to find in those villages today?
I've been active in plenty of KCD communities and subreddits and i've yet to see a single incidence of this kind of mindset manifesting at all.
That said, i'm not on the cesspool known as Twitter/X, I don't venture into gamergate communities and i'm sure some hidden subgroups of awful people like this game for the wrong reasons, but the general discourse around this game praises it for how incredible a game it is, not the politics of Vavra and his ilk.
Was there ever any PS5 update? Now I'm getting the itch to start a new playthrough and finish it up this time.
KC:D is such a weird game. It seems incredibly niche and launched to very mixed reviews, but has a very passionate fanbase. I've almost bought it a bunch of times, but I just can't support the studio. It's not like Daniel Vavra is just a developer; he's the co-founder and creative director of the company. And it's not that he privately has objectionable views; he's basically putting a giant neon sign that says "I'M A BIGOT" on his social media. I think I would be rightly judged for patronizing a restaurant whose owner was doing the same thing Vavra is doing. Someday I hope to open a thread like this and it's because Warhorse or Embracer has shown him the door, and on that day I'll buy the game.
Buy it used, as I did. The game is trully an outstanding achievement in gaming design, regardless of how much of a fascist fuck Vavra is.
Games are a colective endeavour, you can appreciate the craft and effort put on this thing without needing to embrace, support or stop denouncing Vavra asinine views.
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There were ofc a lot of places in 1404 Europe with POC but there were also a lot of places without them, for example rural Bohemia, so not having poc (we do have other ethnicities btw, like the cumans that are prominently featured) doesn't make the game historically inaccurate.
Conversely, if they had included a poc character that wouldn't have made the game historically inaccurate either.
But tbh people don't hate the game because it has or doesn't have poc, they hate the game because of Vavra, and nothing would've changed that, the same way that having an awesome DLC featuring a woman didn't change it.
The same way people that love the game here love it in spite of Vavra, not because of him.
User banned (1 month): dismissing concerns around representation
I'll probably catch a ban for this, but I wish the devs of hogwarts legacy were afforded the same compassion that people are showing for this team
and their situation was not even that bad as jk was kept as far from the project as possible (and the game turned out to be pretty progressive) while this vavra dumbass is literally the creative director and can put their shitty views in the game for all to see (like the treatment of women)
I know consistency is not the strongest quality of this site but this really rubs me the wrong way and feels completely arbitrary
and their situation was not even that bad as jk was kept as far from the project as possible (and the game turned out to be pretty progressive) while this vavra dumbass is literally the creative director and can put their shitty views in the game for all to see (like the treatment of women)
I know consistency is not the strongest quality of this site but this really rubs me the wrong way and feels completely arbitrary
I love how not having PoC is considered fine for historical accuracy purposes as an excuse but somehow having the main story being about a son of a blacksmith becoming a knight is somehow really historically accurate? The devs don't actually care about historical accuracy, they chose to not include PoC, just like they chose to have sexist portrayals of women, and they just happen to have a bigoted gamer gator as their head. People can got "Death of the Author" all they want but the authors views are clear all over this game , and still gets money and attention for his shitty views from this game and the new one.
This reminds me I have to finally play the first one. I'm from Eastern Europe and I love complicated, slightly janky RPGs, so it should be right up my alley.
Edit: I was born in Eastern Europe the 80's, in a rural area that was not that different from KC:D's settings centuries ago, and I am bit knowledgeable about the history of my country. There were traces of Western Asian ancestry in my area, mainly due to invasions coming from the east. IIRC there are Cumans in KC:D, so that would be in line with historical accuracy regarding non-Slavic repeesentation. But I have to admit that I am not *that* into history to be 100% sure.
Edit: I was born in Eastern Europe the 80's, in a rural area that was not that different from KC:D's settings centuries ago, and I am bit knowledgeable about the history of my country. There were traces of Western Asian ancestry in my area, mainly due to invasions coming from the east. IIRC there are Cumans in KC:D, so that would be in line with historical accuracy regarding non-Slavic repeesentation. But I have to admit that I am not *that* into history to be 100% sure.
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nope its still stuck at ps4 version.
doesn't plays hot, being 30fps first person experience and all.
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User banned (1 month): dismissing concerns surrounding representation
I don't see a problem with a blacksmith becoming a knight. The story does not have to be 100% historically accurate even if the rest of the world is trying to be. The problem is rather that the games that say they are historically accurate like Kingdom Come are not actually historically accurate. they use their fake historical accuracy to justify women's role in the games or lack of poc and other things.
For me even fantasy games are allowed to try and be historically accurate to the time period if they want. but with for example Final Fantasy 16 "historical accuracy" was just an excuse to not include any poc.
At the same time Kingdom Come portrayal of the medieval period is pretty standard way to do it in mainstream media i feel. and when it comes to games it is probably one of the most accurate games there is. Should we improve how women/poc/minorities are represented in all historical media and other things? Yes. Hopefully the second game tries to improve on that front.
Your tired of your actions having consequences which is strange cuz that's how the everything works, were judged based on our actions. For instance if I were to go into the suadi Arabia thread and state that I'm happy to see suadi enter the gaming industry, or go into the latest tekken 8 thread and say that the games monetization isn't so bad I'd be judged based on those statements. But in threads like these our actions/post somehow aren't reflective of our stance on the matter.
I'm not goin to convince anyone who's made there choice one way or another, hell by the time this new game comes out this thread will prolly be long forgotten, I just find these threads odd.
It's almost like It's a completely different situation right? Or you're telling me the 6+ million people who decided to play this game are all racist gamergaters?
You should really consider reading up the JK Rowling thread.
The twist that he finds out he's the illegitimate son of a noble doesn't change the fact that a man raised as a commoner and an apprentice to a blacksmith doesn't just then suddenly become a knight. It's a story trope, not something that would be historically likely to happen. It's why the devs claim they care about historical accuracy was always bullshit, and their claim PoC being present wouldn't be historically accurate was also bullshit.
I've debated playing the original several times based on recommendations but I struggle to find time for these longer games. Maybe that time will come soon if I can snag a physical copy. I'm actually kind of glad that on an objective level, a game with this level of risk taking has done financially well enough to merit sequels.
Conversations like this are tough, because I definitely have boycotted games and studios. I refuse to touch anything Blizzard produces from now until the end of time, despite the old Blizzard being my dream studio. It seems like a lot of people have already forgiven and forgotten that whole situation. I can definitely understand why people would detract from and avoid this game, but I also understand why in the sea of identical open-world games tons of people would be interested in seeing where this franchise goes with a budget. We have to hope that success has not emboldened the creator's willingness to intentionally put obnoxious things into the game.
I guess used copies are the best option if you're curious but don't want to directly support. I would never downplay someone's aversion to supporting someone or something financially, money does speak. Ultimately it's up to the user themselves to choose what art they do or don't consume and for what reasons. Everyone has a different comfort level. There are loads of old war games and movies that I enjoy despite knowing they glorify some unforgivable parts of history. Anyway glad people have this conversation regardless. I think consumer media literacy is a really good thing and threads like this are better than making a twitter hashtag and #GoWokeGoBroke'ing it like you know happens to other games where the reverse situation is true.
Conversations like this are tough, because I definitely have boycotted games and studios. I refuse to touch anything Blizzard produces from now until the end of time, despite the old Blizzard being my dream studio. It seems like a lot of people have already forgiven and forgotten that whole situation. I can definitely understand why people would detract from and avoid this game, but I also understand why in the sea of identical open-world games tons of people would be interested in seeing where this franchise goes with a budget. We have to hope that success has not emboldened the creator's willingness to intentionally put obnoxious things into the game.
I guess used copies are the best option if you're curious but don't want to directly support. I would never downplay someone's aversion to supporting someone or something financially, money does speak. Ultimately it's up to the user themselves to choose what art they do or don't consume and for what reasons. Everyone has a different comfort level. There are loads of old war games and movies that I enjoy despite knowing they glorify some unforgivable parts of history. Anyway glad people have this conversation regardless. I think consumer media literacy is a really good thing and threads like this are better than making a twitter hashtag and #GoWokeGoBroke'ing it like you know happens to other games where the reverse situation is true.
5800X3D should do me right? I don't mind capping the game to 60.
I read it, I know she's using her fortune to influence politics to persecute trans people and part of the game's profit goes straight to her, so I agree with the ban on principle
the thing is that in this thread you have people saying that no one should be shamed for playing the game and that it's not the devs fault for having a shitty boss or whatever, which is the complete opposite reaction when talking about hogwarts legacy where if you even considered buying the game you were the worst person ever
is it a matter of scale? vavra is a bum when compared to jk so his influence is limited and maybe that makes it ok, so then why don't we ban every game funded by saudi arabia which is a whole fucking country?
I'm just asking for some consistency, or we ban everything that is harmful to some minority or we ban nothing
Random villagers will address you as knight if you wear expensive armor since you look the part but Henry was never officially knighted if I remember correctly.
how are they different situations? Again in any other instance what you say/do is reflective of your stance on the matter except when it comes to these threads.
staff post - a reminder of the rules of the site
Official Staff Communication
To make it clear:
- You are more than welcome to criticize the game and especially Varvra. The man is a gamergater and needs nobody's defense. The game itself has blatant issues with representation and historical accuracy. You DO NOT need to defend any of this stuff, if you do you will get a LARGE BAN.
- You DO NOT need to issue personal attacks or swipes against other users. If you have an issue with someone's posts in the thread then report them and we will take care of the problem. Insulting or making insinuations about other members is NOT on the table.
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Thank you for clearing that up mods, all the sniping going on in these threads is incredibly tiresome.
I am itching for a replay of the first game in anticipation of the sequel, might dip in for like the third time tomorrow. Is there any chance this game won't be KC:D2 but like an entirely different game/IP?
I am itching for a replay of the first game in anticipation of the sequel, might dip in for like the third time tomorrow. Is there any chance this game won't be KC:D2 but like an entirely different game/IP?
Guess I'll just quietly hope they drop an updated version alongside the announcement of their new game.
Man, this game has always intrigued me as I love immersive systems in games. The RPGs/open world games that have more of that are the ones I seem to gravitate to (Skyrim, RDR2, Zelda,) over the ones that don't.
This seems to take it to the next level but also seems a bit intimidating like others have mentioned. How intimidating is it?
Don't want to dismiss people's concerns about the game or its devs though, just interested in the game itself.
This seems to take it to the next level but also seems a bit intimidating like others have mentioned. How intimidating is it?
Don't want to dismiss people's concerns about the game or its devs though, just interested in the game itself.
I don't understand what consequences are you talking about, I'm more than fine about peole critizing Vavra or the game.
OP
OP
It's really not that bad, especially if you don't activate any of the modifiers.
It's definitely a refreshing take on the genre tho.
The longer I am removed from last generation, the more I associate the game with being my game of the generation.
Really looking forward to it. KCD was one of the most incredible gaming moments of my life. I need to play it in hardcore mode one day.
I agree with the people who think this sequel could be The Witcher 3 moment for Warhorse studios. They have it in them to make big.
I agree with the people who think this sequel could be The Witcher 3 moment for Warhorse studios. They have it in them to make big.
It's not that intimidating, to be honest. It just does things a bit different. It mostly plays just like Skyrim but with a lot more depth and systems to dive into.
Also, without the dragons, magic and other fantasy tropes. It tries to stay grounded in that way and that's one of the best things about it.
Don't sleep on it.
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