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Oct 27, 2017
3,677
The decision makes some sense spelled out this way, except it still seems like they could have released both in some capacity later instead of outright cancelations.
This is a highly simplified idea:

Scenario 1: Cancel the Release
  • The film cost $100M.

  • Claiming the film is incongruent with the strategy from the merger results in getting a tax write down of $25M

  • This results in a net loss of $75M.
Scenario 2: Go ahead with the release
  • The film cost $100M

  • The film is projected to make $20M by releasing it without any additional work or marketing.
    • Net loss of $80M.
    • Releasing it in this state might be reputationly damaging, both to the brand, actors, creatives involved, etc.

  • The film needs another $50M in marketing and post-production to bring it to the 'finished' state.
    • With that additional 50M the film is projected to make $50M.
    • Net loss of $100M.

Essentially, taking the tax write down is a bet by the executive and financial team that the movie was going to bring in less money by releasing it than the tax write off will bring (i.e. releasing it would cause a bigger loss); it's essentially a vote of no confidence in the film's ability to recoup it's budget.

There are additional circumstances and aspects which make this more complex (e.g. the reputational element, the relationship with creators, the merger impacting/etc how lenders perceive profits and any agreements or contracts that dictate this, the timing of financial reporting for pre-/post-merger [and how cancelled or strategy-incongruent projects factor in to that reporting], etc.), but at the highest and most simplified level it's a bet that the movie would have lost more money by releasing it than not releasing it at all and the merger provides an opportunity to do this. Releasing the movie at all, through any channel, means the full cost cannot be written down.

EDIT: Corrected write off to write down
 
Last edited:

Cosmic Bus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,021
NY
Insane that it's perfectly acceptable for a corp to simply write off a $100 million expense because somebody changed their mind.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,987
Apparently, Batgirl had really poor screenings, so they decided to cut their loses. Still, unprecedented for a film that's basically done. Just release it on HBO Max without the fan fare.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,328
Was there any footage of Batgirl released? All I've seen is that one photo and it looks like something from the late 90's Fox network line up
 

SlyCoug88

Member
Jan 10, 2018
820
This is a highly simplified idea:

Scenario 1: Cancel the Release
  • The film cost $100M.

  • Claiming the film is incongruent with the strategy from the merger results in getting a tax write off of $25M

  • This results in a net loss of $75M.
Scenario 2: Go ahead with the release
  • The film cost $100M

  • The film is projected to make $20M by releasing it without any additional work or marketing.
    • Net loss of $80M.
    • Releasing it in this state might be reputationly damaging, both to the brand, actors, creatives involved, etc.

  • The film needs another $50M in marketing and post-production to bring it to the 'finished' state.
    • With that additional 50M the film is projected to make $50M.
    • Net loss of $100M.

Essentially, taking the tax write off is a bet by the executive and financial team that the movie was going to bring in less money by releasing it than the tax write off will bring (i.e. releasing it would cause a bigger loss); it's essentially a vote of no confidence in the film's ability to recoup it's budget.

There are additional circumstances and aspects which make this more complex (e.g. the reputational element, the relationship with creators, the merger impacting/etc how lenders perceive profits and any agreements or contracts that dictate this, the timing of financial reporting for pre-/post-merger [and how cancelled or strategy-incongruent projects factor in to that reporting], etc.), but at the highest and most simplified level it's a bet that the movie would have lost more money by releasing it than not releasing it at all and the merger provides an opportunity to do this.


One thing to keep in mind, though. With tax accounting I believe the company still gets a tax benefit from the net losses if they release the film and it fails to turn a profit. If they have something like a 25% tax rate in your scenario 2 options they also get a tax benefit of either $20M (resulting in an overall loss from the film of $60M) or $25M (resulting in a net loss of $75M). I'm just not convinced that financially they are better off not releasing something at this point. Strategically I get that the difference of a few million dollars may make sense (for Batgirl at least... Scoob seems like a weirder case), but financially the company would likely be better off releasing something.
 

effzee

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,297
NJ
lol why would anyone involved in those films want to collab with wb again

I mean they might not but if given other better opportunities, why not?

They could still have Leslie play the character but introduce it/her through another project. The directors could be offered another movie that from the start has a higher budget and is designed to be a theatrical release.

Keep in mind that this movie started off as a HBO Max movie that they then decided to release in theaters as well.
 

Mancha

alt account
Banned
Oct 23, 2021
2,520
lol why would anyone involved in those films want to collab with wb again
Better question:

Why would I want to give WB or Discovery any money whatsoever while these idiots don't sell WB to a company that actually knows what they are doing? No point getting invested on anything they put out as long as Discovery and Zaslav are in charge. They are clearly prepping for another sale, so why should I even bother?
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,326
news.sky.com

Batgirl: DC Comics film shelved by Warner Bros after poor reviews in test screenings

The movie, which reportedly cost between $70m and $90m to make, would have featured an all-star cast including Leslie Grace as Batgirl, J.K. Simmons as Commissioner Jim Gordon, and Michael Keaton as Batman.

www.techradar.com

$100 million Batgirl movie reportedly scrapped after disastrous test screenings

Not even coming to HBO Max, apparently


It's being dogpiled and I don't know if the bad test screening thing is true or not.
 

NinjaDBL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,104
That's literally a nothing statement…

This new leadership is worse than the previous one, Jesus Christ.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,107
A good reminder about WBD new leadership from a previous thread. It was pretty spot on.

www.resetera.com

WSJ did a profile on WarnerDiscovery's new post-merger CEO. Wants to focus on more theatrical releases, rely on stats, and revive Harry Potter.

paywalled, but I'll add choice excerpts. my initial take doesn't look too good. Former executive team talent left. He's from the wretched cable industry and so on. this guy comes from the Jack Welch school of doing business. So I expect the quality to drop...
Jack Welch guy lol😬
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,677
One thing to keep in mind, though. With tax accounting I believe the company still gets a tax benefit from the net losses if they release the film and it fails to turn a profit. If they have something like a 25% tax rate in your scenario 2 options they also get a tax benefit of either $20M (resulting in an overall loss from the film of $60M) or $25M (resulting in a net loss of $75M). I'm just not convinced that financially they are better off not releasing something at this point. Strategically I get that the difference of a few million dollars may make sense (for Batgirl at least... Scoob seems like a weirder case), but financially the company would likely be better off releasing something.
There are a few reasons it's more complex than the scenario outlines, but ultimately the point is largely the same - the merger allows an opportunity where the incentive for withholding release completely (and being able to categorise the change as being due to strategic differences) is significantly higher than would normally be the case, and the movies were internally projected to bring less money (or reporting benefits) than that opportunity would provide resulting in it being financially better not to release.

The initial Variety reporting touches, although rather vaguely, on this aspect
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/batgirl-movie-why-not-releasing-warner-bros-1235332062/ said:
Releasing the movie on HBO Max would seem to be the most obvious solution. Instead, the company has shelved "Batgirl" — along with the "Scoob!" sequel — and several sources say it will almost certainly take a tax write-down on both films, seen internally as the most financially sound way to recoup the costs (at least, on an accountant's ledger). It could justify that by chalking it up to a post-merger change of strategy.

Ultimately, taking write-downs on these movies is a significant indicator of a lack of confidence in the films.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,987


The article in that tweet suggests otherwise.

The reportedly $70 million movie (the source said the budget was actually more than $100 million), which was doing test screenings for audiences in anticipation of a late 2022 debut, would rank among the most expensive cinematic castoffs ever.

Those tests were said to be so poorly received by moviegoers that the studio decided to cut its losses and run, for the sake of the brand's future. It's a DC disaster.

"They think an unspeakable 'Batgirl' is going to be irredeemable," the source said.
 

Genesius

Member
Nov 2, 2018
15,727
Because no one will say no to an opportunity to direct or star in a $200m+ comic book blockbuster, if DC actually wants to save these characters for their big, tentpole movies, as the article says.

Also, professionals working in the industry often have a very different view and perspective towards that industry than fans on a video game forum.
Part of being an artist, especially an actor, is having the ability to let go of your art after you've done your thing. It's out of your hands, you had your experience.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,186
I assume this

when coupled with the purchase accounting maneuver


is some accounting trick letting them write off a bunch of the costs so this isn't too expensive for them. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Just release on HBO max what you have, stop making new things for HBO max as per your adjusted strategy, and put different movies out in theaters without worrying about your D2C stuff clouding the 'universe canon' or whatever bullshit you used to justify this
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,642
There were never mentions of bad screenings except by a specific group online(racist gang),
As soon as this came out yesterday they were all celebrating saying it tested awful, they saw parts and it was awful, their friends worked for WB and it was awful.

Now legitimate stuff is running with that shit for some reason.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,072
I feel like the best case scenario here is that they're shitcanning all of the HBO Max movies but the series are fine.

Which I really don't have a problem with.
 

KillingJoke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,672
I think they are saying the tax write off excuse to save face. If the movie was quality and screening off the charts, no way they would just tank it.

Granted i don't know how much they would need to make a profit. But it's pretty clear they have no faith in the movie making money to break even.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,575
Discovery+ likely has as many or more subscribers than HBO Max and all it has is reality tv versus giant 100 million dollar productions like Batgirl or Raised by Wolves. All these streaming services are money losers right now and the Netflix downfall has frightened scaredy cat executives. Zaslov wants high budget productions on tv or in theaters and syndicated stuff and backlog content on demand/streaming which is what people subscribe for anyways. Just a catalog of old crap. On paper I have to admit it makes sense. The lack of care for people caught in the crossfire is really alarming though. Finding out at your wedding your movie was cancelled for an "accounting opportunity". This is not how the movie business is run at all unless you only care about profits
 
Last edited:

OaklandKao

Member
Mar 21, 2022
2,913
Executive meddling will have them killing their own golden goose.

HBO MAX has been my most-used streaming platform.
Same. And if the rumors of HBO and Max originals being pulled of the service, I'm going to be pissed, since I don't want to get fucking cable just to watch Euphoria whenever Season 3 comes out.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,072
Same. And if the rumors of HBO and Max originals being pulled of the service, I'm going to be pissed, since I don't want to get fucking cable just to watch Euphoria whenever Season 3 comes out.

If they push everything back to cable, that's the worst misread of the media market of all time.

People are cord cutting more and more and there's no going back to the old model.
 

Kabuki Waq

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,875
Seems like they didn't want to introduce these characters in a mid range netflix original level production.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,948
If they push everything back to cable, that's the worst misread of the media market of all time.

People are cord cutting more and more and there's no going back to the old model.
I don't think we have seen any evidence of them pursuing a strategy other than merging HBO Max and Discovery+ and rationalizing HBO Max originals in favor of series over films. They announce earnings tomorrow, I believe, so we'll see soon.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,155
Just seems like a weird nothing statement when Batgirl wasn't the only thing canned, so some vague "shift in strategy" when it comes to DC and HBO doesn't tell us much. There is obviously more going on here than not making DC movies for HBO max.

I mean the article and previous ones about Zalov spells it out, they are done with pumping money into streaming. Netflix is just further proof to them that going in on streaming is too costly and the returns not great. He wants to go back to theatrical releases and stuff syndicated and movies out of run on MAX. It's why they just canceled a bunch of poorly performing MAX shows despite positive critical response to them.

HBOMax is going to see a big drop soon in terms of quality releases.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,186
If they push everything back to cable, that's the worst misread of the media market of all time.

People are cord cutting more and more and there's no going back to the old model.

They have things like HBO content on Sky platforms - perhaps there is more money (or simpler money) to be had sublicensing to other broadcasters and their third party streaming services?
 

Lakeside

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,257
So their theatrical movies in the DC space have been fucking terrible for the most part, and now they're canceling the HBO Max flicks.

Can WB please pass the DC properties on so that someone can make meaningful content with them?
 

ryan299

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,445
Big budget movies for streaming service don't make much sense. Spending that same money on a series that gets more engagement time and has potential for future seasons are a better bet.
 

CrocM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,731
This is a highly simplified idea:

Scenario 1: Cancel the Release
  • The film cost $100M.

  • Claiming the film is incongruent with the strategy from the merger results in getting a tax write down of $25M

  • This results in a net loss of $75M.
Scenario 2: Go ahead with the release
  • The film cost $100M

  • The film is projected to make $20M by releasing it without any additional work or marketing.
    • Net loss of $80M.
    • Releasing it in this state might be reputationly damaging, both to the brand, actors, creatives involved, etc.

  • The film needs another $50M in marketing and post-production to bring it to the 'finished' state.
    • With that additional 50M the film is projected to make $50M.
    • Net loss of $100M.

Essentially, taking the tax write down is a bet by the executive and financial team that the movie was going to bring in less money by releasing it than the tax write off will bring (i.e. releasing it would cause a bigger loss); it's essentially a vote of no confidence in the film's ability to recoup it's budget.

There are additional circumstances and aspects which make this more complex (e.g. the reputational element, the relationship with creators, the merger impacting/etc how lenders perceive profits and any agreements or contracts that dictate this, the timing of financial reporting for pre-/post-merger [and how cancelled or strategy-incongruent projects factor in to that reporting], etc.), but at the highest and most simplified level it's a bet that the movie would have lost more money by releasing it than not releasing it at all and the merger provides an opportunity to do this. Releasing the movie at all, through any channel, means the full cost cannot be written down.

EDIT: Corrected write off to write down
One thing I dont get. If they finish it, they own it forever. Surely they can make some money off it in the long run?

Im ignorant as to how purely streaming things make their profit.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,345
I assume this




is some accounting trick letting them write off a bunch of the costs so this isn't too expensive for them. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Just release on HBO max what you have, stop making new things for HBO max as per your adjusted strategy, and put different movies out in theaters without worrying about your D2C stuff clouding the 'universe canon' or whatever bullshit you used to justify this
It seems the merger gives the new executive group a limited window to write off productions green light by the previous /pre merger executive group
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,711
USA USA USA
Discovery+ likely has as many or more subscribers than HBO Max and all it has is reality tv versus giant 100 million dollar productions like Batgirl or Raised by Wolves. All these streaming services are money losers right now and the Netflix downfall has frightened scaredy cat executives. Zaslov wants high budget productions on tv or in theaters and syndicated stuff and backlog content on demand/streaming which is what people subscribe for anyways. Just a catalog of old crap. On paper I have to admit it makes sense. The lack of care for people caught in the crossfire is really alarming though. Finding out at your wedding your movie was cancelled for an "accounting opportunity". This is not how the movie business is run at all unless you only care about profits
ive never met a single person who's ever once talked about discovery plus

I refuse to believe it has anywhere near the same amount of subscribers as hbo max
 

Ernest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,546
So.Cal.
I think WB crunched the numbers, and realized that they'd have to spend more on marketing than they did on the movie just to break even, so in a purely financial decision (I assume - as that's all that drives them), they scrapped it.

They just have no clue how to handle their superhero franchises.
 

WedgeX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,257
ive never met a single person who's ever once talked about discovery plus

I refuse to believe it has anywhere near the same amount of subscribers as hbo max

Brief googling suggests that HBO Max has three times the subscribers as DiscoveryPlus. But who knows how accurate any of that is, and that's as far as I'm willing to research.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
Makes sense. Theatres are opening up to high grossing films again, Netflix stock is down because they underestimated how much they could throw at streaming, Disney+ only exists because Marvel cheques.

Streaming right now doesn't seem like the best way to make money. Disney can put out the productions they do because Marvel and other studios under the Disney umbrella can soften the blow. That is probably why there are so many productions in place atm for Marvel because they probably cannot sustain the budget on the D+ shows so they make more films.

WBD has the right idea and it makes sense. It is the execution that matters. There is zero logic into tossing money into virtually a black hole for the possibility that streaming becomes that profitable. Even then they can easily readjust their plans after it becomes more sustainable. Let Netflix, Disney and others figure it out. People will resign up easily. This won't burn as many bridges as people think. Just remember that Disney is a few flops away from D+ having the same meetings.