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Was Nazi Germany high when they invaded the USSR?

AzureJet

AzureJet

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
197
I don't mean that literally. I mean that I can't fathom why a country fighting a campaign in the West would risk opening up another in the East. As far as I know, Imperial Japan wasn't going to come to their aid, so why would they waste resources on what would likely be a long operation by themselves?

Can any ERA historians shed light on why the Nazis did this?
 
Commedieu

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
They were on cocaine, but I think everyone was during ww2.

edit;

oh it was Crystal Meth? I thought it was cocaine lozenges/drinks.
 
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,484
I thought this was going to be about the shocking high usage of Crystal Meth amoung the axis and allies
 
Kinthey

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,445
From how I understand it did the USSR have a very powerful war machine but it was slow to move so they thought they could get the jump on them.
 
GeminiX7

GeminiX7

Member
Feb 6, 2019
600
Because if they didn't stop the USSR before the Soviets were mobilized, they were going to be forced into a hammer and anvil situation. If they didn't quell the East before NA got involved they'd be at great risk of a fight on two fronts. Also, Hitler had a tendency not to listen to his advisors.
 
Vilix

Vilix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
Texas
Unfortunately I post from my phone. So I can't go into detail. But, basically, Hitler wanted the vast resources that Russia has. Yes, he also hated communism. But I believe he used that as just lip service to invade compared to the real reason of vast land, precious metals, vast oil reserves, access to eastern trade routes, and enslaving the billions of inhabitants for free labor.
 
Masoyama

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Nazi germany had great tech but incompetent leadership where promotions were given due to personal allegiance to Hitler and party and not merit.
 
Kiraly

Kiraly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,848
Both Hitler and his military planners knew that Germany's best chance of victory was for the war in Europe to be finished swiftly. The Channel was a formidable obstacle and unlike Britain, Germany was not a sea power. Even if air superiority could be gained, there remained the powerful British Navy.

So they turned their eyes to the east.
 
It’s Time To Go

It’s Time To Go

Member
Dec 2, 2017
20,692
Partly the idea that defeating Russia would bring Britain to negotiate and strengthen the nazi position in Europe even if America entered the war. Despite the victories of 1939-40, the fact the nazis never considered alternative methods to defeating the UK other than invasion or u-boat blockade was a serious error. Hitler was obsessed with lebensraum also, and the eradication of 'bolshevism'. He thought the red army was weak and poorly led. In his own words 'you have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crumbling down'
 
Omegasquash

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,241
GeminiX7 said:
Because if they didn't stop the USSR before the Soviets were mobilized, they were going to be forced into a hammer and anvil situation. If they didn't quell the East before NA got involved they'd be at great risk of a fight on two fronts. Also, Hitler had a tendency not to listen to his advisors.
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At least the ones that weren't lock step with him.
 
Monkey Gland Sauce

Monkey Gland Sauce

Member
Oct 30, 2017
880
Let Eddie Izzard explain it for you:

Napoleon had been steaming in there 100 years before: "I'm going to kill them, I'm going to kill them, going to… Oh, it's a bit cold, it's a bit cold. Right! Ok, ok, bad idea." And then Hitler, "I've got a better idea, got a better idea… Oh, it's the same idea! It's the same idea, it's the same idea..."
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It’s Time To Go

It’s Time To Go

Member
Dec 2, 2017
20,692
Commedieu said:
Weren't the germans ill prepared for the climate? I vaguely remember them not having proper clothing or supplies.
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Yes. The Germans invaded in the summer, but the size of the country, logistics, and Red army resistance meant the invasion got bogged down well into the winter. Russian weapons and equipment were designed for sub zero temperatures, German stuff wasn't.
 
Meows

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
I remember it being a common joke in AP European History and APUSH to "never invade Russia."
 
Commedieu

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
CormoranStrike said:
Yes. The Germans invaded in the summer, but the size of the country, logistics, and Red army resistance meant the invasion got bogged down well into the winter. Russian weapons and equipment were designed for sub zero temperatures, German stuff wasn't.
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Which probably didn't seem as bad of an idea, when you're hopped up on meth...
 
Mr X

Mr X

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,245
Virginia / US
Difficult to rationalize a war fought on the basis of an ideology. So you really need to view this war (and this conflict in particular) through that prism. Communism was the mortal enemy of Nazism. From Hitler's point of view, the Aryan race is superior, the German (particularly the soldier) is the pinnacle of the Aryan race. Russian's/Slavs are inferior, just like the gypsies and the Jews in his eyes.

In the end, it was always about ideology, otherwise Germany would have probably tried to broker some sort of peace deal after the success of their initial onslaught, but when you conduct a war based on ideology, they were all in for either total victory or total defeat.
 
Rosenkrantz

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,947
No? They had almost entire continental Europe under their thumb and USSR was definitely unprepared at the time due to military purges and shitty state of the army in general. Hell, had Moscow have fallen in December of 41 the history would've been different.
 
Dekuman

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,032
No.
uSSR was preparing for war with Germany

Hitler made the same calculation the Germans did in WW1. Which was to start the war before the Russians got too far ahead
 
AegonSnake

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
AzureJet said:
I don't mean that literally. I mean that I can't fathom why a country fighting a campaign in the West would risk opening up another in the East. As far as I know, Imperial Japan wasn't going to come to their aid, so why would they waste resources on what would likely be a long operation by themselves?

Can any ERA historians shed light on why the Nazis did this?
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i mean they ended up killing 14 million russians. by comparison 'only' 400k soldiers lost their lives during WW2.

They would have won if russia was like any other western european country that valued lives.
 
Vilix

Vilix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
Texas
CormoranStrike said:
He thought the red army was weak and poorly led. In his own words 'you have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crumbling down'
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He was partly right. Like Hitler, Stalin called all the shots. On top of that the blood purged of the 1930s left the soviet military very weak. Look at what happened to the red army during the winter war with Finland. It was only at the last minute when Stalin finally turned over all military decisions to the generals, and bringing up the army reserves from Siberia, and a brutal winter, that the reds were able to turn it around.
 
PanzerKraken

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,057
To Germany they thought they had the western front pretty much won but they stalled, and the western intervention from the US really screwed them over. Instead of having the west pacified and being able to concentrate on the eastern front, they were stuck in a two sided war. Germany might have stood a chance if they weren't fighting on both fronts and had succeeded in taking the west, but it was impossible to fight both. US and Allie bombers essentially decimated much of the german air power along with destroying many of the German factories producing planes and tanks. Many heavy tanks being made specifically for the eastern front never made it due to allied bombings, and German air power was becoming short in supply with not only planes, but quality pilots. Lot of air assets that would have changed the tied of the war were committed and lost on the western front.

If they had waited to secure the west, they MIGHT have stood a chance of invading the east.
 
Qikz

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,554
Rosenkrantz said:
No? They had almost entire continental Europe under their thumb and USSR was definitely unprepared at the time due to military purges and shitty state of the army in general. Hell, had Moscow have fallen in December of 41 the history would've been different.
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Not even just that, if the German's hadn't bombed all the cities to rubble which completely blocked off their panzer divisions then the war still would've been won in the east by Germany despite the 41 winter.
 
Mugsy

Mugsy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,261
On the practical side of things the USSR had been performing badly in the winter war in Finland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War) and for some reason the famously paranoid Stalin trusted Hitler, disregarding reports of the coming attack and ending up completely unprepared. Germany meanwhile had just rolled over France, something they never managed in WW1 and was looking unstoppable.

On the more ideological side of things the Nazi's were incredibly racist (huge surprise) against the Slavs and the Jews which is exactly what they saw the USSR as. As a side note they saw Communism as an ideology as something created by Jews. So they expected the soldiers of the USSR to be ineffective due to their race along with the race/ideology of their commanders. The USSR government they saw as an ineffective mix of Jewishness and Slavicness that would inevitably fall apart when given a slight push. So they invaded with the expectation the USSR would just fall apart and lose all cohesion, leaving no resistance to their conquering/mass extermination.
 
It’s Time To Go

It’s Time To Go

Member
Dec 2, 2017
20,692
You should look up Richard Sorge OP. He was a soviet spy working with the German embassy in Tokyo, who transmitted information to soviet intelligence that japan would strike at the European colonial possessions rather than in the east at soviet territories, which allowed the Russians to bring up reinforcements from the east to stop the German advance into Moscow.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,674
The war in Europe was pretty much wrapped up by that time, and Hitler thought the USSR was just a huge rotten structure that would collapse if they knocked on the front door hard enough (he was wrong as it turns out)

The USSR was almost certainly going to plan an invasion of Germany though, so you can see the German charge into the USSR as preemptive and possibly the best move they could make given their options.
 
Big-E

Big-E

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,169
If they take Moscow, things would most likely would not have played out the way they did. The Russian defense was amazing given what was thrown at them.
 
Xando

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,469
Stalin purged most of his officers.
USSR army was in very bad shape.
Hitler was an idiot who lucked out because the french were even bigger idiots.
 
KillerMan91

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,369
Commedieu said:
I don't know who to believe....

:o
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I was refering to WWI. In WWII germans were definitely ill prepared for winter conditions as they expected quick victory. It also helped that Russians already had had Winter War against Finland in which they were ill prepared for winter conditions but learned from that.
 
AcademicSaucer

AcademicSaucer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,728
Wasnt the beginning of the end for them the failed Italian invasion of Greece that Germany had go intervene and that delayed everything else ?
 
sibarraz

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,154


Watch this video (and the rest of the channel really) explains with a detailed investigation and relatively impartial opinion what really happened in WW2, this thread has some info that at this point is more myth than reality
 
thewienke

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,072
I'm sure someone will call me out on being wrong because someone always knows more than me in WW2 topics but what the hell I'll take a stab:

Hitler believed that the Soviet Union was practically a failed state and there wasn't a whole lot of evidence contrary to that belief going into Barbarossa. They purged much of their military leadership and waged a shockingly embarrassing war against the Finnish. I think Hitler was quoted as saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that if you kick the door down, the whole rotten structure will collapse.

The Soviet Union also had vast grain, mineral, metal, and oil resources that the Germans needed to sustain the war effort and wouldn't be threatened by a naval blockade.

I've seen other assertions that Barbarossa was, in essence, a grand counter offensive because there's belief that the Soviets would have attacked Germany eventually anyway.

I'm not sure if the Germans underestimated the Soviet's ability to move their heavy manufacturing capability east or the lengths they would go to with their "scorched earth" policy. I think the general consensus seems to be that as a result of their ineffective supply lines partially as a result of the Soviet scorched earth policy, even if Barbarossa happened on time in May 1941, that the end result would be the same. Moscow and just beyond was just too damn far for their logistics.
 
It’s Time To Go

It’s Time To Go

Member
Dec 2, 2017
20,692
AcademicSaucer said:
Wasnt the beginning of the end for them the failed Italian invasion of Greece that Germany had go intervene and that delayed everything else ?
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That's often quoted, but is debatable. You could argue a combination of a need to secure the Axis position in the Balkan's, including Yugoslavia following a British intelligence sponsored coup to install a pro British government was a factor in the delay though, yes.
 
Mr X

Mr X

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,245
Virginia / US
And what helped somewhat was the success Germany had in their conflict with France. France was considered to have the greatest land military force in the world at the time, it was certainly no guarantee that Germany would defeat France. When Hitler had requested plans for how they would go about the war with France, a German general named Heinz Guderian that came up with the concept of blitzkrieg and Hitler agreed with his assessment. His planned call for a breach through the Ardennes (heavily forested area) and no one expected such an attack to come from there. Hitler decided to go with this plan in spite of his general's warnings and it worked out so well, as Blade Runner put it, he got high on his own farts.

He meddled so much in operation Barbarossa (and most other military operations overriding his own generals frequently) that it probably led to the invasion being less effective than it could have been. He would also meddle and override his general's on many other war plans to come, that helped hastened Germany's defeat.
 
The Albatross

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,179
I know you're being flippant with the title, but Nazi leadership may have been high during most of World War II .......

https://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/were-nazis-drug-fueled-crankheads.htm

Wild episode of Stuff You Should Know on German drug production during World War II and how that affected the Polish & French Blitzkreig, and how it could have hurt NAzi troops as the war dragged on and drugs failed to get to the fronts. Soldiers were given meth in their rations.

For the front in Russia, Nazi leadership knew they'd be short on men for a sustained European war with Americans joining. The Germans also had assumed that Japan and the USSR would officially declare war on each other, figuring that the Soviets would have to move more troops to their Eastern front. The opposite of this happened: Japan assured the Soviet Union that they were not going to attack Russia directly, and in 1941, Soviet troops stationed on the Eastern Russian front were transported through Siberia to Moscow, which was one of the turning points of the Battle for Moscow... One of the first major losses for the Nazis.
 

pulsemyne

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,649
Also, the Germans thought, quite rightly for the time, that the Soviet army was a paper tiger with poor leadership. At the start of the invasion this was very true. The Soviets had botched the invasion of Finland and been humiliated, only winning through weight of numbers.
Hitler also hated communists. Really hated them. He was always determined to wipe them out. He was flush with success and thought that he could stomp the russians.
And he did, for a while. But winter and russia relocation of factories as well as allied supplies help stop his advance. Once that was done the soviets could rebuild their army and from that point on there was only going to be one winner.
 
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