Watcher Entertainment is leaving YouTube and launching its own paid subscription service (UP - New episodes will come to YouTube a month later)

[ElephantShell]

This whole thing is weird. I only watch Ghost Files so I guess I'm fine to just start the next season a month later but still.

I kind of respect the confidence to think your content is good enough that people would pay an entire separate subscription just to watch it but I don't think realistically that would work.

 

[Ash_Greytree]

We all collectively fucked up allowing Youtube to become 99% of video content discovery. Thats the huge issue.

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Yeah, agreed. I wish there were effective ways to push back against YT's domination of the space and get people to go to other websites like the Internet of yore.

 

[Wereroku]

While I'm angry at the decision, I genuinely think he believes it's the right business decision, I think he genuinely cares about the content and the company. I just don't think there was much analytics or market research done. I think a subscription service for Watcher instead of Patreon is actually a good idea, but only for bonus content, extended cuts (without sponsorship and ads), behind the scenes, podcasts and perhaps new and exclusive content.

YouTube content should be for already well established shows and can have all the adverts and sponsorship required.

Unfortunately Lim made the poor business decision to place EVERYTHING behind a subscription paywall.

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I was talking to a friend about this. Switching their Patreon folks over to the new site to cut that middleman out would have not upset anyone and only increased revenue. Those folks are already paying extra and wouldn't have had any issues switching over except for prepaid folks but that is solved by refunding or giving them a subscription on the new site as well. Nothing but a plus for everyone involved. Going all or nothing was always going to be an issue.

 

[Tendo]

This could end up being a net negative for them. They lost over 100k youtube subs, and I have to imagine a lot of pissed off folks canceled their patreons - will they convert enough people over to even break even? I guess we'll see.

 

[JayCB64]

This whole thing wound up being extremely awkward. Like, sure, all's well that ends well for people who want to watch on YouTube, but now I barely see the point in the site and infrastructure that they've no doubt invested heavily in. Like can they recover from that?

 

[StopMakingSense]

This whole thing wound up being extremely awkward. Like, sure, all's well that ends well for people who want to watch on YouTube, but now I barely see the point in the site and infrastructure that they've no doubt invested heavily in. Like can they recover from that?

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For the infrastructure they are using the exact same Vimeo platform Dropout uses.

 

[ArchedThunder]

For the infrastructure they are using the exact same Vimeo platform Dropout uses.

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They still have to pay for that, no?

 

[StopMakingSense]

They still have to pay for that, no?

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Sure, though it's more structured around a revenue share system I believe.

 

[Amnixia]

Lmao, yeah. NO.

They're definitely rolling this back or go bankrupt

 

[chefbags]

Lmao, yeah. NO.

They're definitely rolling this back or go bankrupt

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They did this morning according to the video they uploaded today and the title change, unless you mean the whole new subscription service itself? Which at this point I doubt they're gonna do so now. They're still committed to it.

 

[painey]

one of the top comments on the apology is 'congratulations, you just invented patreon!' 🤣

 

[Remark]

The roll back is hilarious because they literally just changed their subscription service to Patreon.

Guess they REALLY don't want to give Patreon a cut lmao.

 

[Lump]

The roll back is hilarious because they literally just changed their subscription service to Patreon.

Guess they REALLY don't want to give Patreon a cut lmao.

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Whatever Patreon is taking (8% or 12% these days?) can't be that much worse that the costs of hosting and managing your own video streaming service, right? Weird ass decisions all around here.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Whatever Patreon is taking (8% or 12% these days?) can't be that much worse that the costs of hosting and managing your own video streaming service, right? Weird ass decisions all around here.

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They are using Vimeo's OTT platform (same as Dropout). It takes its own cut which seems to be 1$/mo per subscriber (may be different for enterprise customers, but that's the rate for the standard OTT plan.)

 

[Lump]

They are using Vimeo's OTT platform (same as Dropout). It takes its own cut which seems to be 1$/mo per subscriber (may be different for enterprise customers, but that's the rate for the standard OTT plan.)

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So if a user sub is $6 a month, then the $1 cut is more than Patreon's 8-12% unless my math is missing something.

 

[StopMakingSense]

So if a user sub is $6 a month, then the $1 cut is more than Patreon's 8-12% unless my math is missing something.

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Sure but Patreon is not a good platform for hosting this much video organized in series/seasons (that you can brand as your own site as well)

 

[ConfusingJazz]

I wonder what the stats are on the website sign ups. How bad was it that they had to release this apology video? Because if it actually worked, there would never have released this video. I have to imagine they got <500 sign ups. Maybe even <100.

 

[Lump]

Sure but Patreon is not a good platform for hosting this much video organized in series/seasons (that you can brand as your own site as well)

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For the original plan that's exactly right.

For the new plan where they stay on YouTube and just grant early access to subscribers, then Patreon is all that's needed to link to unlisted or private videos still hosted on YouTube.

 

[Helix]

View: https://youtu.be/fgWnPkFLIr8?feature=shared

 

[werezompire]

Originally it was the three of them, but Ryan and Shane realised they didn't have any business accumin, nor did they enjoy being "bad guys" when it came to decisions like redundancies, and realised being in charge of a company was very different from content creation so stepped down a while back and just became the talent. Steven has essentially had to become "the bad guy" on their behalf.

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Also, they specifically said that doing the creative work of making & starring in various shows AND also all the business stuff was just too much work. So it made sense to split up the labor like this.

I'm guessing Steven Lim's food shows are drastically lower cost, both in money and in time, than the big headliner shows that Shane & Ryan do. Like I understand that the optic doesn't look good to have a show about traveling around the world eating expensive food at the same time that you ask your fans to pay you more money, but also even that show is probably a lot cheaper to make than a new episode of Ghost Files or Puppet History.

 

[DeathPeak]

It was the "we're starting a streaming service... but still keeping Patreon" part that was the red flag for me. I don't get why they wouldn't have just moved everyone from Patreon to the streaming service. I imagine because they wanted to keep the streaming service cost low while Patreon still has higher priced tiers? I know the Patreon tiers has a few extra perks like discord but it's primarily video content that should be on their streaming service.

 

[Jubilant Duck]

It's kind of like the days when everyone found out that Rob Walker and Mike Michaud completely owned Channel Awesome and Doug Walker was just on-camera talent. It's weird how the people nobody particularly loves always wind up in positions of power.

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I mean, on-screen talent generally make for bad managers of business. They're two completely different skillsets each requiring your full attention.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I mean, on-screen talent generally make for bad managers of business. They're two completely different skillsets each requiring your full attention.

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Accurate.

 

[Pluto]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iFYULNTznI

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So they're just incompetent. Forget the mistakes they made before, now all new videos will be on YouTube a month after they are on watcher TV? Watcher TV was a bad idea from the start but now it is completely pointless because who won't wait a month? It's not like any of their content is something that will get spoiled and ruined if it's not watched immediately, if I watch puppet history a month later then so what? How does that affect me in any way? If I don't pay attention to Watcher TV I won't even notice a difference.

The biggest problem in my opinion is that they keep saying they wanted to give the audience the quality content they deserve when they should have asked themselves what the audience wants. It's absurd to repeatedly insist on giving the audience something they deserve but never asked for and then expect them to happily pay for it.

Audience: We're okay with you sitting on two folding chairs talking into your iPhone camera.
Watcher: You deserve more!
Audience: We don't need more.
Watcher: But you deserve it, look at the new sets, graphics, fancy editing, expensive location shooting and all the food content! It's Netflix quality.
Audience: It looks nice, it's not what we're her for but okay, what's the harm?
Watcher: This isn't sustainable, please pay us for the things you deserve, new episodes will now be paywalled!
Audience: WTF?! No!
Watcher: *brings out apology couch* We're sorry, we completely misjudged how poor you are. We will keep releasing content on YouTube but please still pay us for the things you didn't ask for.

 

[Buckle]

I don't blame anyone for trying to escape the anti-creator hell that is Youtube but yeah, probably not the best way to go about it.

 

[Fat4all]

The biggest problem in my opinion is that they keep saying they wanted to give the audience the quality content they deserve when they should have asked themselves what the audience wants.

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its pretty clear that what they are talking about if having to change their content in regards to advertisers

Advertisers are a lot more strict when it comes to cursing, drinking, rudeness, etc

they would 100% have to change their content, either to edit it or completely change how they perform on camera, in order to get the kind of advertisers that could MAYBE support their channel/employees

 

[firehawk12]

I guess I just saw this making the rounds of the YouTuber commentarati, but how is this any different from Nebula or Dropout? Or the Tim Heidecker service? Not sure why their fans got angry when other fans are more than happy to pay for extra services.

 

[Fat4all]

I guess I just saw this making the rounds of the YouTuber commentarati, but how is this any different from Nebula or Dropout? Or the Tim Heidecker service? Not sure why their fans got angry when other fans are more than happy to pay for extra services.

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i can understand why fans were upset

but yea, i dunno why every drama youtuber on the internet saw fit to make this the punching bag of the week

prob just had no other target

 

[firehawk12]

i can understand why fans were upset

but yea, i dunno why every drama youtuber on the internet saw fit to make this the punching bag of the week

prob just had no other target

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I felt like I was missing something... like maybe they are alt-right assholes who hate wokeness or something. But it just seems like they're generic high production Youtubers that somehow got blowback for doing what they've seen other big channels do already.

Maybe they were just unlucky to not be first and the Dropout guys are laughing to the bank thanking the YouTube gods that no one is mad at them for charging for their videos.

 

[BetterGraphics]

I watch a lot of YouTube and have never even heard of this channel. What a mess of a story though.

 

[Dakkon]

I guess I just saw this making the rounds of the YouTuber commentarati, but how is this any different from Nebula or Dropout? Or the Tim Heidecker service? Not sure why their fans got angry when other fans are more than happy to pay for extra services.

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It basically boils down to different fan bases want different things from, well, different things. SomethingAwful requires you to pay to use their forums if ResetERA did the same thing out of nowhere most people would be upset and everyone would think the argument that "not sure why ERA people are angry when other forums have people who are happy to pay for their services" is silly because they're two different forums entirely.

Basically, it boils down to Watcher being pretty much hard carried by Ryan and Shane, Shane constantly talking about eat the rich and piracy but then doing this, Steven's new show involving going to places and eating ultra expensive food while asking for more money to fund that, adding 3 new hosts for no reason, and pretty much no one that has followed these guys since Buzzfeed giving a fuck about "higher production values" because Ryan and Shane had never needed anything more than just them.

Dropout has a lot more than just 2 people's worth of talent and actually puts out a ton of quality content way more often than Watcher does. And they are (will be) the same price.

I totally understand the desire to keep growing and keep doing bigger and better, but it's hard to do that when people don't love you for that. Personally do wish this would work out for them, but at some point they need to face the reality that no one is watching Watcher content and going "oh man, the production value, the cinematography", you know? I can (and have) literally just watch Ryan and Shane get drunk in a backyard talking about random shit and have a great time and find that worth supporting, I don't need big bombastic stuff.

 

[Fat4all]

Shane constantly talking about eat the rich and piracy but then doing this

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asking for copensation?

Steven's new show involving going to places and eating ultra expensive food while asking for more money to fund that

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that was an incredibly popular youtube show that got multiple millions of views?

adding 3 new hosts for no reason

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'no reason'

and pretty much no one that has followed these guys since Buzzfeed giving a fuck about "higher production values" because Ryan and Shane had never needed anything more than just them.

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higher production values are just one benefit from getting steady pay

so is not having to change their programing to please sponsors to survive on youtube as a platform

i dunno about you, but if the next season of Ghost Files launched with zero cursing and infighting and a big Hello Fresh ad in the middle i'd be bummed out

 

[Fat4all]

the biggest issue they made with this move was not easing into it and trying to go "shock and awe" with a big thumbnail saying "we're leaving youtube"

 

[Dakkon]

asking for copensation?


that was an incredibly popular youtube show that got multiple millions of views?


'no reason'


higher production values are just one benefit from getting steady pay

so is not having to change their programing to please sponsors to survive on youtube as a platform

i dunno about you, but if the next season of Ghost Files launched with zero cursing and infighting and a big Hello Fresh ad in the middle i'd be bummed out

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I am just explaining the general fanbase's sentiment, I think I made it pretty clear from my other posts in this thread that I support the endeavor and that I have already paid for the service lol. (but likewise am not expecting it to survive or do well for a variety of reasons)

 

[Fat4all]

I am just explaining the general fanbase's sentiment, I think I made it pretty clear from my other posts in this thread that I support the endeavor and that I have already paid for the service lol. (but likewise am not expecting it to survive or do well for a variety of reasons)

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i know, but even explaining it how the fans look at it is such crap in my eyes when it feels so loaded with bad faith nonsense

like i dunno what fans expect from these guys sometimes

 

[Lump]

the biggest issue they made with this move was not easing into it and trying to go "shock and awe" with a big thumbnail saying "we're leaving youtube"

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I'd imagine the yearly subscription Patreons were right to be miffed with the first announcement, but for the rest of us this whole thing is just a weird curiosity from start to finish

 

[werezompire]

I guess I just saw this making the rounds of the YouTuber commentarati, but how is this any different from Nebula or Dropout? Or the Tim Heidecker service? Not sure why their fans got angry when other fans are more than happy to pay for extra services.

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It was a good idea, handled really badly.

They completely misread their audience. Their main audience is broke college students who are obsessed with Shane & Ryan to a possibly unhealthy level. Being told that their oppa was going to stop giving them free attention and treating them like family and instead was going to make them start paying for their services felt like a betrayal.

Telling people that anyone could afford it was a misfire. Doing a countdown to the announcement like it was this great thing was a misfire. Announcing a show about eating expensive food with a different host was a misfire (pet peeve - I'm sure the Steven cooking shows and this show in particular are still WAY cheaper than stuff like Ghost Files & Puppet History and Steven's stuff has gotten over millions of views in the past, so the hatred is unjustified). And starting a subscription service, but not giving people who already were paying a subscription (patreon) access was another misfire.

What they should have done:
Done tiers where there was a still a free option, even if it's just waiting weeks/months for Youtube releases with ads.
Made it clear that existing Youtube content wasn't going to be removed.
Announced the subscription with a brand new Shane and Ryan show, since that's their biggest draw.
Given all Patreon subscribers months of free access.
Offered a trial where you get the first week or month for free.

 

[firehawk12]

Given all Patreon subscribers months of free access.
Offered a trial where you get the first week or month for free.

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I kind of get converting Patreon subs to individual subs is going to be a pain, but I'm surprised they didn't give any trial. I feel like Corridor Crew guys are in weird grifter mode with AI, but even they have a trial for their streaming service.

But I guess if it's a channel built on intense parasocial relationships, there's probably a very fine line. Thinking about the Giantbomb guys basically breaking off and asking for money, effectively for an extra podcast and discord access, and how people were willing to throw money at them means there's probably a good and bad way to do this.

Creating a dramatic YouTube video about quitting maybe ain't it.

 

[Ivy Veritas]

I guess I just saw this making the rounds of the YouTuber commentarati, but how is this any different from Nebula or Dropout? Or the Tim Heidecker service? Not sure why their fans got angry when other fans are more than happy to pay for extra services.

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1. Dropout didn't have a choice--their YouTube arm was shut down by their parent company and all they had left was Dropout. 2. Dropout had already existed for over two years at that point, with multiple shows that were already Dropout-exclusive (other than preview episodes on Youtube). People were already paying for that content. 3. All of the Dropout shows were new to Dropout, unless you count very early versions of Um, Actually. Those shows weren't moved from YouTube to Dropout--they started on Dropout.

If Watcher had just converted their existing patrons to the new streaming service (and maybe give an option to continue paying through Patreon for those who don't want to give their credit card to yet another site), I don't think there would have been as much of an outcry.

And if they'd launched it with new shows instead, like Dropout did, there wouldn't have been any outcry at all. They could and should have launched their new podcast on a new Patreon, rather than cannibalizing their existing Patreon. Podcasts tend to do very well on Patreon--they might have doubled their income from that alone, and then this whole mess could have been avoided.

If they really want to do television-level production values, they should be pitching their shows to television networks, not pitching their budgets to YouTube viewers. And if they want to be Dropout, then they should have done much better research into why Dropout succeeded. I don't think Watcher did anything morally wrong, and I can certainly agree that the YouTube model tends to fail for larger productions; they just made some bad business decisions. And now they've backpedaled on most of it, which I don't think is the best solution, but maybe it'll stem the bleeding.

 

[Belfast]

i know, but even explaining it how the fans look at it is such crap in my eyes when it feels so loaded with bad faith nonsense

like i dunno what fans expect from these guys sometimes

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I agree that the video was in poor taste and didn't "hit" well, but looking beyond that part of it, a lot of the reaction smacks of "not wanting to pay artists when you can get it for free" in communities that would otherwise vouch for artists and creators to get paid. Maybe there is some mythical line where they can get paid *too* much and then it should just continue to be given gratis.

 

[Fat4all]

I agree that the video was in poor taste and didn't "hit" well, but looking beyond that part of it, a lot of the reaction smacks of "not wanting to pay artists when you can get it for free" in communities that would otherwise vouch for artists and creators to get paid. Maybe there is some mythical line where they can get paid *too* much and then it should just continue to be given gratis.

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like dont get me wrong, they fucked up by springing this so quickly and not giving a clear picture as to why they were doing this or why the patreon would go towards supporting the podcast going forward, and i think they knew they fucked up right away just from the fan response alone and spent the weekend thinking of the best way to address the fuck up to fans

it was just weird seeing it blown up all over the place in the same way that happened after whatshisface got done in for years of plagiarism and frauding folks $80k for a film company that doesnt make films

 

[T002 Tyrant]

the biggest issue they made with this move was not easing into it and trying to go "shock and awe" with a big thumbnail saying "we're leaving youtube"

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Agreed. I've stated it a million times but if they'd had pitched it as their own private Patreon and said we'd still be getting our favourite shows on YouTube. But we'd be getting a lot of value for money by subscribing.

- 30 days early access to shows with no sponsors or ads!
- Extended cuts to shows like Ghost Files (YouTube cuts would be restricted to 30-40 mins), extended cuts would be a minimum of an hour.
- Exclusive new shows only accessable via subscription
- Additional perks such as store discounts for gold tier members.

I'd have been like "fine". The scorched earth attempt where they even privatised their old content was a dick move. Thankfully they almost immediately reversed their decision to block access to old content and tried covering it up. And now thankfully they're giving us content 30 days later.

Unfortunately I paid for their Patreon for a year and I don't think they're offering refunds, so I can't subscribe for at least a year since they have my money.

 

[werezompire]

Unfortunately I paid for their Patreon for a year and I don't think they're offering refunds, so I can't subscribe for at least a year since they have my money.

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They posted an update recently that says if you're a Patreon member, you can message them and they'll give you a code for the subscription service (3 months, but they're discussing renewing it every 3 months if you're still a Patreon member).

 

[T002 Tyrant]

They posted an update recently that says if you're a Patreon member, you can message them and they'll give you a code for the subscription service (3 months, but they're discussing renewing it every 3 months if you're still a Patreon member).

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It's a shame I cancelled and quit their entire Patreon I don't think I can do that now 😅

 

[Pluto]

i know, but even explaining it how the fans look at it is such crap in my eyes when it feels so loaded with bad faith nonsense

like i dunno what fans expect from these guys sometimes

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I don't think there was any bad faith nonsense from the fans side. The initial announcement was so bad and tone deaf that the response was justified.

Initially the plan was to leave youtube, remove all content and out it behind a paywall, the patreon would change to be about a podcast. They immediately backpedaled and announcend old content would stay on youtube but I doubt that was just miscommunication like they pretended.
So basically the audience was told "Everything you used to get for free, now for money!", of course that wasn't going to go over well.
And Steven's new show flying around the world and eating at fancy restaurants might not cost that much but it's still a very bad look when the announcement coincides with them telling their fanbase "Pay us or don't watch us". Of course that makes fans feel like they're being made to pay for someone loving the high life.
Saying things like they picked $6 because everyone can afford it is also basically a slap in the face for people who cannot afford it and made it obvious that the guys are completely out of touch with the lived reality of their audience. $6 is a lot of money for a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck.

The most important rule when trying to get your youtube audience to pay you is to start with "Don't worry, nothing on the channel is going to change, you'll still get all your favorite shows and new ones! But if you want early access, exclusive footage etc. we offer you this and that!"
They didn't give the audience a choice, they were trying to force them into paying if they wanted to keep watching new content pretending they were doing the fans a favor.

I agree that the video was in poor taste and didn't "hit" well, but looking beyond that part of it, a lot of the reaction smacks of "not wanting to pay artists when you can get it for free" in communities that would otherwise vouch for artists and creators to get paid. Maybe there is some mythical line where they can get paid *too* much and then it should just continue to be given gratis.

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I don't think that's fair, it's not like fans weren't willing to pay them. Fans subscribed to the patreon, bought the merchandise and tickets to live shows all directly supporting them financially. And of course people didn't pirate their content because they thought they felt entitled to get an artists work for free, they watched for free what was given to them for free and suddenly it's not anymore.

 

[beat]

I guess I just saw this making the rounds of the YouTuber commentarati, but how is this any different from Nebula or Dropout?

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How is Dropout selling a ton of content for $6/month different from Watcher selling a lot less content for still $6/month?

(also Dropout/Collegehumor's old videos on Youtube are still there. Also Dropout didn't have a Patreon. Also Dropout was launched years before IAC pulled out and forced CollegeHumor/Dropout to go all-in on Dropout. And the Dropout content was always sold as Dropout stuff first, not CollegeHumor shows on Youtube that got moved over.)

Meanwhile, Smosh has 35 full time employees, say about 15% larger than Watcher's 27, but Smosh's main channel has 26m YT followers and Watcher has 2.8m.

 

[StopMakingSense]

How is Dropout selling a ton of content for $6/month different from Watcher selling a lot less content for still $6/month?

(also Dropout/Collegehumor's old videos on Youtube are still there. Also Dropout didn't have a Patreon. Also Dropout was launched years before IAC pulled out and forced CollegeHumor/Dropout to go all-in on Dropout. And the Dropout content was always sold as Dropout stuff first, not CollegeHumor shows on Youtube that got moved over.)

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Yeah. Also, for me, paying for Dropout is about supporting an independent platform for a large stable of comedians that it's introduced me to and many of whom I see live in LA now. For all I know, Watcher is just the three dudes.

Meanwhile, Smosh has 35 full time employees, say about 15% larger than Watcher's 27, but Smosh's main channel has 26m YT followers and Watcher has 2.8m.

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Smosh also puts out 8 30 minute+ videos a week across 4 channels, plus multiple live streams a month.

 

[Antrax]

And if they'd launched it with new shows instead, like Dropout did

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Correction here, Dropout had nothing really but Dimension20 for the first year of the service (Um Actually had a few episodes for a season 1, but you could watch all of that in less than no time). It took a long time before they had more than Dimension20 on there that got many views.

I don't think that's fair, it's not like fans weren't willing to pay them. Fans subscribed to the patreon, bought the merchandise and tickets to live shows all directly supporting them financially. And of course people didn't pirate their content because they thought they felt entitled to get an artists work for free, they watched for free what was given to them for free and suddenly it's not anymore.

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I get that it's not fun when "free thing" becomes not free, but I would disagree with "fans were willing to pay them." The vast majority do not pay them; their YT channel has a few million subs but their Patreon only had a few thousand paid backers.

At some point, something has to give. With how low monetization is right now for ad-supported content, I wouldn't be surprised to see more creatives turn to direct-pay models. Working for exposure doesn't pay the bills like it used to, and it wasn't exactly great before anyway.

 

[Laughing Banana]

They deserved all the flak for that "it;s only 6 dollars, everyone can afford it" shenanigans alone.

 

[CommodoreKong]

So with their original plan of moving everything off of YouTube and behind their paywall site what was their plan to gain new subscribers? If their content was gone from YouTube who was going to pay $6 a month to try a service with just them if they were unfamiliar with their content? They wouldn't retain 100% of their original subscriber base, who were they going to replace those lost through natural churn?