Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that when I listened, it seemed like they were focusing very much on the American stuff, and that it wasn't specifically relevant to me. Trust me, I'm more than aware we have our own problems with representation.
Even if the viewpoint/frame of reference is US-centric, there's still a lot to learn that can be applied to pretty much everywhere. I understand if there's a lot of Trump talk that doesn't interest/matter to you but you could always look at the parallels in UK.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,473
MSN, WI
Oh damn, I hadn't even noticed Austin had been demoted from Editor-in-Chief to Deputy Editor as part of this.

Waypoint is basically sat under/is part of Motherboard now.

Fuuuuuuck that.

Bet anything that Austin and Patrick, if not everyone, is gone within a year. I'd be mentally one foot out the door already.
 

Young Liar

Member
Nov 30, 2017
3,444
With so many folks here struggling to engage in cultural criticism regarding more in-your-face issues like race and gender, it's not at all surprising to me how this forum that is probably made up mostly of white Americans and Europeans can't even begin to fathom post-colonial perspectives in video games.

Waypoint, its community, and even me personally think Monster Hunter: World is one of the best games that came out in 2018, but that doesn't mean we don't get to critique one of the central themes it clearly communicates, intentionally or not, through its narrative and mechanics.

Also, yes, fucking LOL at believing the games industry and the culture it fosters at large isn't right-leaning.

It's neoliberal at best, with the biggest companies spewing PR speak for diversity and inclusivity all the while having exploitative, abusive working conditions and churning out game after game fulfilling power fantasies and fetishizing militarism and conquest. There's also the rare AAA game limply suggesting "maybe we're the bad guys too!" but FUCK YEAH THE GAMEPLAY FEELS GOOD.

It's only recently that the mainstream gaming press has become more outspoken against the toxicity of ~gamers~ and the corporations that allow such hate to breed for profit as well as the hell those very corporations put their workers through.

When white men don't dominate positions of power in the industry, when women and queer and colored folk feel safe and welcome in more companies and official communities, when we aren't getting news about labor exploitation every other week, when studio leads stop glamorizing "passion" to excuse crunch and no work-life balance for the people under them, when socio-political criticism doesn't get greeted by defensiveness and cynicism, when more publishers, dev studios, and media outlets actively denounce abhorrent actions and beliefs of hate groups and specific personalities and other companies without fear of alienating certain audiences, when the majority of video game narratives and mechanics don't reinforce individualistic empowerment and imposing order via force, maybe then we can agree that the gaming industry isn't right-leaning.

There are definitely creatives and communities that are passionate about games and lean left, but they are dwarfed by the institutions and fans that are all for the status quo.

Today, we should just lament the fact that Waypoint, one of the few bastions for honest-to-god left-leaning criticism in games, has fallen victim to corporate restructuring, and that Natalie Watson, the one and only Joyous Gamer, will no longer be part of the crew. Waypoint wasn't perfect, highlighted by their mishandling of trans issues with their content back in late 2017/early 2018, but they acknowledged their mistakes and have done better about it, as exemplified by their Savepoint charity streams for Trans Lifeline that has raised over $200k. I sincerely hope Austin and co. manage to keep to their mission of examining why we play games within this new structure. The latest pod has me optimistic, and I trust Austin, Patrick, Danielle, Rob, and Cado to stay the course.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,554
I mean, just because the rest of the game review circle is jacking off to how many gameplay hours the game offers or listing & marveling how many pieces of armor you can get in the game, it doesn't mean some people trying to critique themes & handling of colonization in a game where you explore and... colonize new lands is somehow a reach...
But do they actually engage the topic in a meaningful way? It's like a few sentences and then it goes on to repetitive quest design which is just a jarring contrast. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, there actually aren't any indigenous people that are being colonized in Monster Hunter, are there? So it's not even like the arguably most problematic aspect of colonialism is even glorified in the game. It seems more like a point that's brought up for the sake of it without much else to say
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,571
I only know of Waypoint from the image of the guy covering his eyes during some partial Yakuza nudity, was hard to take them seriously after that.

Imagine judging an entire site's journalistic work by how someone reacts to partial nudity.

The takes in this thread are fucking dreadful. Waypoint engages in critical thinking, judging video games as an art form worthy to get contextualized in historical and societal contexts. That means, among other things, possibly exploring the colonalist tendencies of a game like Monster Hunter: World. Sooo many people on this forum (and in the community at large) then immediately go to "LOL, Journalists hate Monster Hunter: World because they say it's racist xD", completely ignoring that one can still love a game despite engaging in critical analysis around it. It's another thing were it's impossible to have a "wrong" opinion on the subject.

It's entirely subjective how you interpret some of the themes and plot lines in MH: WW and for me, at least, the article touched on a subject I was struggling with, too, when playing the game. The conversation aspect always seemed haphazardly put into the game to me and not really very convincing. So, disagreeing with them is entirely OK. What reeks of anti-intellectualism to me is attacking the outlet for engaging with the topic in the first place.
 
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Deleted member 3058

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But do they actually engage the topic in a meaningful way? It's like a few sentences and then it goes on to repetitive quest design which is just a jarring contrast. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, there actually aren't any indigenous people that are being colonized in Monster Hunter, are there? So it's not even like the arguably most problematic aspect of colonialism is even glorified in the game. It seems more like a point that's brought up for the sake of it without much else to say
There are. They're the wild cats that steal from you and attack you.

There's a quest where you have to capture some that was mentioned in that article.
 

OrdinaryPrime

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Oct 27, 2017
11,042
"An industry that skews right"

How?

Just stay in your hotel Bass, you don't want to mix it up with the dregs of the video game world. XOXO

They proudly wore their biases on their shoulders, and that turned me the hell off. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for critical analysis in writing, but oof.

Specifically, I much preferred Klepek's content before he bent the knee at the Woke altar; actually admired his work at GB.

You must not have paid attention closely to Patrick when he was at GB. He was eviscerated for having stronger political views than the other members by GB fans. Using woke this way makes me think you're making fun of Patrick for how he formulates and expresses his views, and that frankly they're not sincere. Why do you think that way?
 

CottonWolf

Member
Feb 23, 2018
1,779
Even if the viewpoint/frame of reference is US-centric, there's still a lot to learn that can be applied to pretty much everywhere. I understand if there's a lot of Trump talk that doesn't interest/matter to you but you could always look at the parallels in UK.
I absolutely understand what Waypoint was doing, and I think it was a good thing, it just didn't have the focus I wanted (and that's perfectly fine). I'm not criticising the website at all, and I suspect that it exposed to a lot of people who'd otherwise totally ignore issues of inclusion and economic justice to those ideas, so good on them. I'd just rather listen to more UK-focused podcasts.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
But do they actually engage the topic in a meaningful way? It's like a few sentences and then it goes on to repetitive quest design which is just a jarring contrast. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, there actually aren't any indigenous people that are being colonized in Monster Hunter, are there? So it's not even like the arguably most problematic aspect of colonialism is even glorified in the game. It seems more like a point that's brought up for the sake of it without much else to say
I mean, the destruction of endemic species due to colonization/human influence is a problem too. It doesn't just affect humans. And sure, they could've gone more in-depth about it but I don't think only having a few sentences that wonder about such subject is an entirely wrong approach either. A general review doesn't necessarily need to have 10 paragraphs about such subject.
 

CottonWolf

Member
Feb 23, 2018
1,779
I mean, the destruction of endemic species due to colonization/human influence is a problem too. It doesn't just affect humans. And sure, they could've gone more in-depth about it but I don't think only having a few sentences that wonder about such subject is an entirely wrong approach either. A general review doesn't necessarily need to have 10 paragraphs about such subject.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you actually think about the real world reprecussions of the acts that basically every character in any game ever has on the game world, you'd see that in 90% of games it's really messed up. That's ripe territory for critical analysis, but not every review has to become an essay on it even if its relevent.

Animals are slaughtered for very little reason without a second thought in a huge number of games. At least some games have the wherewithall to realise they're messed up. Links Awakening - You genocide every creature endemic to Kolkint and the game repeatedly points this out to you. Basically every Yoko Taro game starts with the premise that RPG protagonists are monsters and works from there. Games that don't realise their own implications are fair game. Pokemon's a funny example too, because it goes to great pains to deny the true horror of its setting, where sentient creatures necessarily consume each other for their survival.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you actually think about the real world reprecussions of the acts that basically every character in any game ever has on the game world, you'd see that in 90% of games it's really messed up. That's ripe territory for critical analysis, but not every review has to become an essay on it even if its relevent.

Animals are slaughtered for very little reason without a second thought in a huge number of games. At least some games have the wherewithall to realise they're messed up. Links Awakening - You genocide every creature endemic to Kolkint and the game repeatedly points this out to you. Basically every Yoko Taro game starts with the premise that RPG protagonists are monsters and works from there. Games that don't realise their own implications are fair game. Pokemon's a funny example too, because it goes to great pains to deny the true horror of its setting, where sentient creatures necessarily consume each other for their survival.
I think the issue is that most people separate the idea of review and critique/analysis in their heads. However, since Waypoint supposedly doesn't use review scores I don't see what the issue is on making a critique in that vein, I mainly see an issue if they attempt to use it in tandem with a score regarding its quality.
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
If you look at reddit as a whole fuck no, if you look at specific communities then hell yeah.

But that goes without saying—smaller, more specialized communities will always have the chance at being more progressive.

For our size and comprehensiveness, nothing comes close. The only sub even approaching it would be GCJ.
 

OrdinaryPrime

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Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Guys maybe an entire multi-billion dollar all-encompassing industry can't be easily summed up with "it's left leaning/right leaning"

I thought that whole line of discussion was regarding the demographics of the consumers of the industry. Not necessarily the make up of the people making the games themselves.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Using colonialism as a point of criticism towards Monster Hunter World as if the game itself is trying to support colonialism as an idea just seem way out of there. So no wonder it's a perspective that's never been used to critique the game before, because it's just... well, not something that people would logically or normally think when they view the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Someone can correct me if I'm misremembering, but they never accused the developers of "trying to support colonialism."

A game (or any media) can unintentionally comment or take a stance on a concept. That doesn't protect it from criticism, and frequently the people at Waypoint give creators the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those instances. Don't recall them accusing Capcom of propagandizing colonialism, but feel free to quote where they said that.

Aside from that, if your argument's based on "it's a take that no one else had," then consider that so few gaming outlets ever even acknowledge themes/philosophies in games, let alone stuff like treatment of trans characters in game stories (or hold a fundraiser to support trans causes in real life).

"No one else had this take," is more an indictment on the rest of games media, and even the Cliff Notes version of their critique of MHW's colonial elements was better founded than your argument here.
 

Deleted member 1273

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Someone can correct me if I'm misremembering, but they never accused the developers of "trying to support colonialism."

A game (or any media) can unintentionally comment or take a stance on a concept. That doesn't protect it from criticism, and frequently the people at Waypoint give creators the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those instances. Don't recall them accusing Capcom of propagandizing colonialism, but feel free to quote where they said that.

Aside from that, if your argument's based on "it's a take that no one else had," then consider that so few gaming outlets ever even acknowledge themes/philosophies in games, let alone stuff like treatment of trans characters in game stories (or hold a fundraiser to support trans causes in real life).

"No one else had this take," is more an indictment on the rest of games media, and even the Cliff Notes version of their critique of MHW's colonial elements was better founded than your argument here.
I never agreed on the colonialism take on MHW because that's not like the game at all? But I agree with you here
 

airbagged_

Member
Jan 21, 2019
5,693
Charleston, SC
Jesus... reading Twitter (yeah I know) so many people hated Waypoint... Jesus.

This is so poorly timed especially after such a successful stream they had this weekend
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
Jesus... reading Twitter (yeah I know) so many people hated Waypoint... Jesus.

This is so poorly timed especially after such a successful stream they had this weekend

Even as someone sympathetic to a lot of their views, that Red Strings Club article alienated me from really caring about most of the other writing on that site
 

airbagged_

Member
Jan 21, 2019
5,693
Charleston, SC
Even as someone sympathetic to a lot of their views, that Red Strings Club article alienated me from really caring about most of the other writing on that site

I re-read the article and it was a huge misfire. The others have been pretty good and I knew to stray away from the fanfic stuff. I really did like their viewpoint especially since I'm a cis white guy and wanted to get these perspectives so I could better understand marginalized gamers and other messages I wouldn't otherwise get.

EDIT: I even watched their Translifeline stream from pretty much beginning to end and donated a bit because of how entertaining they all are.
 

striderno9

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
2,361
New York, NY
I'm sad to see Waypoint go but I trust Austin and crew to keep fighting the good fight, if it not working out, he'll probably tell us before anyone else.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
Someone can correct me if I'm misremembering, but they never accused the developers of "trying to support colonialism."

A game (or any media) can unintentionally comment or take a stance on a concept. That doesn't protect it from criticism, and frequently the people at Waypoint give creators the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those instances. Don't recall them accusing Capcom of propagandizing colonialism, but feel free to quote where they said that.

Aside from that, if your argument's based on "it's a take that no one else had," then consider that so few gaming outlets ever even acknowledge themes/philosophies in games, let alone stuff like treatment of trans characters in game stories (or hold a fundraiser to support trans causes in real life).

"No one else had this take," is more an indictment on the rest of games media, and even the Cliff Notes version of their critique of MHW's colonial elements was better founded than your argument here.
For some reason even bringing up an issue IS THE ISSUE for a lot of fans of media. Critical theory itself is the enemy. Same thing with this Monster Hunter World article. Who knows how many have even read it. It's weirdly accepted to be against even looking at media in that way. This doesn't just apply to video games, obv
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
Sincerely doubt the majority of the twitter hate has to do with that and is more about their general anti-bigotry stance.

Oh yeah my bad, I didn't mean to defend those people or imply the twitter chuds had a legit problem with them. I meant more that there are people outside of the shitty Twitter sphere that have issues with them too.
 

airbagged_

Member
Jan 21, 2019
5,693
Charleston, SC
For some reason even bringing up an issue IS THE ISSUE for a lot of fans of media. Critical theory itself is the enemy. Same thing with this Monster Hunter World article. Who knows how many have even read it. It's weirdly accepted to be against even looking at media in that way. This doesn't just apply to video games, obv

This.

The MHW review/article didn't seem to be condescending and make me feel like an idiot for not realizing this in game and was rather "Hey... here's a different way to look at it" and while I didn't agree with it, I appreciated where it was coming from.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
I hope that everyone is happy with their new roles but if they aren't, I echo the sentiment that I would love to see Patrick and Austin come back home.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,316
Their content just isnt engaging, almost as if they went "hey lets be political" without figuring out how to make people watch/read/click on their stuff first

Which is confusing to me because patrick and austin should be really well equipped on that front since they both came from gb
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,665
Brutal.

I feel really bad for Austin and the crew. I know you have to put on the brave face and march forward, but this feels like the final countdown here. I didn't always agree with them, but I absolutely loved that they were doing something different from everything out there.

Looks like VICE is immediately turning them into another one of the pack.
 

chogidogs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,357
Geez, I didn't think Austin was gonna get demoted. That sucks. They should just do their own thing and go the Patreon route. I'm sure they won't have a problem finding a following.
 

Deleted member 12129

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Oct 27, 2017
2,021
I also honestly don't get the big deal over that RE2 article. It was actually really positive on the game.


If we're thinking of the same article, read this direct quote and tell me theres a place for this when discussing a videogame about goddamn zombies.


Early on, protagonists Claire and Leon hear a radio message instructing all citizens to head for the station.

That notion is wild, the police station as fortress/safe haven is laughably naive (particularly for people of color). It certainly was in the 90s as well, and really, when has policing in America ever actually been about keeping neighborhoods safe as opposed to keeping a racist status quo up and running?


These takes are trash.
 

KoolAid

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Oct 25, 2017
6,689
Where does it say Austin was demoted? In his description and bio still says he's Editor-in-Chief of Waypoint.
 

Deleted member 888

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Is this a real quote? It reads like an Onion blurb.

It's one review, but yes, it was pretty nutty

Does it matter to Marvin—or Leon, for that matter, during my Claire playthrough—if I use every healing item on myself? Nope! If I barely have a scratch on me, I can still walk right up to where Marvin is bleeding out of his abdomen, and spray myself with magic healing green shit, with no consequences. I can use every bullet for myself. I am the only thing I need to worry about for much of the game. I know there's a sidequest later on that complicates this, but for now, this is just another thing I'm permitted to be. Selfish.

I'm also not really allowed to do anything I please, as the verbs are pretty limited. I wanted to play with all the food items in the store in the opening gameplay scene. Look at all the goofy fake labels and such, like I do in a Life is Strange game or a walking sim. But that's a very different sort of permission fantasy, isn't it? The ability to touch and play with so many aspects of a world, with no angry shopkeeper staring at me and my now-very-obviously-queer haircut.

But here I am limited to and encouraged to engage in a whole bunch of anti-social behaviors. Stealing shit. Shooting antagonists in the face. Stabbing them. Trying to get them to walk halfway into doors so I can headshot them. I can "interact" with survivors sometimes, but only in very prescripted ways.

In real life, I carry a tourniquet, exam gloves and gauze everywhere I go. I keep a little kit, right in my real-life purse, just in case I need to help someone. I've had to use it before (the gloves and gauze, anyway), as a passer-by to an assault. I've… thankfully never needed to use my supplies in a zombie outbreak, not yet. But I'd like to think, in my heart of hearts, that I'd be a different kind of survivor than Claire or Leon are really allowed to be in RE 2.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/59xgqz/resident-evil-2-survivor-compassion

It's a remake of an old school (speedrunner friendly) horror game with a simple plot. It's not that deep.

But something-something David Cage allows every item to be picked up and rotated for... plot.
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
See, the police station thing I could at least see what they were getting at, but Jesus Christ those other excerpts about RE2

Danielle is just a writer I need to avoid. She also had that insanely bad take about red strings club I mentioned earlier.

Idk waypoint has good people and that charity stream was great but then I read this stuff and wonder why it was ever published
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,464
If we're thinking of the same article, read this direct quote and tell me theres a place for this when discussing a videogame about goddamn zombies.





These takes are trash.
I don't see why we need to define so narrowly the way we talk about games

Is it trying a bit too hard to inject currently relevant social commentary into a discussion about RE? Perhaps. But to say there's "no place" for thinking about games in this way isn't something I agree with either.

After all, aren't the George Romero zombie movies full of commentary on race relations? This genre has its roots in more than pure gore spectacle.

Edit, the second part of your except I have a harder time defending tbh
 

airbagged_

Member
Jan 21, 2019
5,693
Charleston, SC
See, the police station thing I could at least see what they were getting at, but Jesus Christ those other excerpts about RE2

Danielle is just a writer I need to avoid. She also had that insanely bad take about red strings club I mentioned earlier.

Idk waypoint has good people and that charity stream was great but then I read this stuff and wonder why it was ever published

I think she was the only writer I would be like "huh?" at some of her takes. I can see the very THIN connection she's trying to make (Romero's films had a lot of social commentary) but... it wasn't that deep. Still, I'd rather have that than some Random Angry Gamer review of the game.
 

Deleted member 888

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I think she was the only writer I would be like "huh?" at some of her takes. I can see the very THIN connection she's trying to make (Romero's films had a lot of social commentary) but... it wasn't that deep. Still, I'd rather have that than some Random Angry Gamer review of the game.

The takes are really silly. For a start, it's a puzzle-lite action horror game where story is almost non-existent. Or at least, it's rooted in 90's video game storytelling which was very simple. Need we look back at the cutscenes and scripts of RE1/RE2? It's almost B-tier horror on purpose.

Capcom cleared it up a bit (the script/acting) for RE2:Remake, but that wasn't the main goal, staying true to the original but giving it that remake lick of paint was the main goal. It's still a game which you can speedrun through in like 30 minutes if you learn layouts and ironically, given the complaints above, learn how to dodge/run past nearly all enemies. It's not MGS for doing a non-lethal playthrough, but you can ignore pretty much everything besides bosses. Mr X is even fully based on the idea of running, not attacking.

Then there are the comments which amount to little more than "I wish I was playing Life is Strange/some Tell-Tale choose your own adventure". Okay? I'm not sure how that is relevant to playing an action horror game with an almost linear plot. Do you read Game of Thrones then wish it was actually Harry Potter?

Reviewers don't need to like a prior entry, or even necessarily like the genre they are trying out, fresh views or views from those who don't normally play this type of game are fine. Unrealistic expectations or dumping on a game for being something it wasn't even trying to be can sometimes amount to really bad takes. Especially when you conclude on talking about a medical bag you carry about with you in real life with "I helped some people myself" and somehow contrast that to Resident Evil 2. If I were cynical I'd say that just seemed like trying to find a way to big yourself up in a videogame review...
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,300
This is absolutely true. The gaming industry is thankfully mostly leftist.


Gaming in general can be a right wing cesspool.

The power centers of the industry definitely skew right. It is the reason why there are no Unions or worker protections. Of course there are tons of people involved in the creation, coverage and playing of games who are leftist, but when you judge an industry as a whole, I think it's fair to concentrate on the people who actually have the power. Like any multi-billion dollar industry, it's complicated.

It's sad what happened to Waypoint, the Faustian bargain they made at it's creation finally came back and bit them and it genuinely makes me sick. When I saw a podcast pop up in my feed with the shitty-PR-speak title of "A Few Announcements from the Team", I knew it was going to be bad.
 

SoH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,741
Then there are the comments which amount to little more than "I wish I was playing Life is Strange/Some Tell-Tale choose your own adventure". Okay? I'm not sure how that is relevant to playing an action horror game with an almost linear plot. Do you read Game of Thrones then wish it was actually Harry Potter?
It isn't that odd of a take. RE7 studied walking sims, despite it's fanbase never taking notice. Resident Evil is also largely inspired by adventure games, just like walking sims. There is more overlap there than meets the eye.

And even if it wasn't, who cares? Desiring to inspect a world in greater detail is hardly a sin.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,268
If we're thinking of the same article, read this direct quote and tell me theres a place for this when discussing a videogame about goddamn zombies.



These takes are trash.

It's a remake of an old school (speedrunner friendly) horror game with a simple plot. It's not that deep.

Why on earth shouldn't there be a "place for this"? The point is to examine the kinds of assumptions that audiences and developers take for granted, and consider alternatives to those assumptions. RE2 is just the jumping-off point for that discussion. If you want a standard review telling you whether the game is good or bad, you can go to any other website.

"It's just a videogame" is a weird objection coming from someone spending their time posting on a videogame discussion forum. Heaven forefend one think critically about their hobbies.