[Waypoint] We Haven't Covered 'Kingdom Come: Deliverance.' Let's Talk About Why.

[EkStatiC]

Waypoint is one of the best places for gaming with great articles and overall the top team today.

But they are wrong in this one.

Review/speak the game and move on.

If you want something deeper than this speak on how this person worldview is affect or is represented in the game.

To write off someone or everyone that supports gamergate and all the right wing stuff is wrong.

One more thing, waypoint's job is to be critique against those persons and their creations.
They must tear down the game if they can in multiple articles, prove as why we should not play this game waypoint from all the standpoints, political, social, and not only for gameplay and such.
Dont ignore them, fight...

 

[Jebusman]

They did a quick look for Hatred, Vanishing of Ethan Carter

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I'd argue they did a Quick Look of Hatred just to point out how garbage it was.

 

[ElBoxy]

If this dude tried to make it into the comic industry with these opinions he would have been roasted by the press and public and shamed into hiding. Video games allow his type to stay hidden and as long as he delivers a good product then he gets a pass.

 

[Chindogg]

If this dude tried to make it into the comic industry with these opinions he would have been roasted by the press and public and shamed into hiding.

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Then he would be quietly hired by Marvel and promoted within a few years.

 

[Yearsoflurking]

Oh wow. I thought people were exaggerating just 'cause of that weak "historically accurate' argument he was peddling. No, this guy's just a POS. Glad KC never appealed.

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Sadly many people don't know this guy is a piece of shit; hopefully this waypoint pod convince many others from not supporting this guy and his views

 

[Dreamboum]

but if they come to the conclusion that no, they will not cover the game then having the conversation in public is pretty much the best possible coverage the game can hope for.

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The visibility is not the point, it's the stance that you adopt that matters in shedding light on why you won't cover it. You give tangible reasons while not engaging in the usual process of covering the game. Think of it of sidestepping the game to get straight into the discourse.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

A quick look at the controversy around Hatred: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/29/hatred-gaming-controversy

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Thanks but i cannot found nothing about far-right ideology in that article.

Clint Eastwood literally said "Just Get Fucking Over It" regarding something Trump said that was racist. It was widely reported. My point is that a reputable outlet reviews the craft and separates from the creator. Let's also not forget there is an entire team that worked on this game.

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Linking the craft and the creator is a common practice in media critics, and Waypoint is a reputable outlet. It dosen't stop to be one only because you don't agree with their policy about the game.

Reviewing a game in a vaccum, when the main designer is racist, is weak and non-sensical. The most reliable french videogame website (gamekult) actually spoke about it and has included the racial aspect in their coverage of the game.

 

[Rackham]

People looking for a reason to buy the game don't care about supporting douchebags.

Separating the art from the artist is bullshit.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Waypoint is one of the best places for gaming with great articles and overall the top team today.

But they are wrong in this one.

Review/speak the game and move on.

If you want something deeper than this speak on how this person worldview is affect or is represented in the game.

To write off someone or everyone that supports gamergate and all the right wing stuff is wrong.

One more thing, waypoint's job is to be critique against those persons and their creations.
They must tear down the game if they can in multiple articles, prove as why we should not play this game waypoint from all the standpoints, political, social, and not only for gameplay and such.
Dont ignore them, fight...

Click to shrink...

They are making a whole podcast about it, they are not keeping silence about it. But they refuse to treat it as any other game.
I mean, if the game is really good, would you lead your audience to give money to someone who work directly against your rights, at least on a ideological level ?

 

[GillianSeed79]

So they're covering the game and giving him the attention they don't want him having.

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IMO the fact that they are talking about it is beneficial to me personally so I that I'm better able to make an informed purchasing decision. I saw the Game Informer podcast talking about this game randomly on YouTube the other day without context and the game itself looked pretty interesting and right up my alley; however, I vaguely remembered reading on Resetera that there was some controversy or something surrounding it. It wasn't until I researched it a bit, that I found out the this is guy is an Alt-Right/Gamergater member/apologist. That's an instant NO BUY/nope the fuck out for me. Had I not researched it here, I would have had no idea that this guy is a douchebag. I morally can't support his products. Waypoint talking about it at least may inform others who are not familiar with this guy's beliefs about this guy and then they can make a decision for themselves.

 

[DarkFlame92]

I don't think that media should decide whether or not to cover a game based on some of the devs thoughts on other matters. And the whole attitude of "Look at us that we are not covering this game,because the creator has innapropriate/extreme beliefs,please give us a public applause" is fishy to me

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

IMO the fact that they are talking about it is beneficial to me personally so I that I'm better able to make an informed purchasing decision. I saw the Game Informer podcast talking about this game randomly on YouTube the other day without context and the game itself looked pretty interesting and right up my alley; however, I vaguely remembered reading on Resetera that there was some controversy or something surrounding it. It wasn't until I researched it a bit, that I found out the this is guy is an Alt-Right/Gamergater member/apologist. That's an instant NO BUY/nope the fuck out for me. Had I not researched it here, I would have had no idea that this guy is a douchebag. I morally can't support his products. Waypoint talking about it at least may inform others who are not familiar with this guy's beliefs about this guy and then they can make a decision for themselves.

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That exactly my case, without knowing about who is behind the game and the controversy, i would have bought the game no-doubt.

 

[Milk Lizard]

What other games made by a GG far-right racist GB has covered ?

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gamer gate maybe now but...

 

[CthulhuSars]

The game should be reviewed. The views and opinions of the creator should be known. Both of these things should be separate unless it is an article that directly discusses the fundamental crisis of views like this linked to studio heads or opinion pieces.

Waypoint should have just kept mum about it and moved on. Or wrote a review and or opinion piece about the creator and how it is affecting the current climate in the games industry.

 

[Yearsoflurking]

If this dude tried to make it into the comic industry with these opinions he would have been roasted by the press and public and shamed into hiding. Video games allow his type to stay hidden and as long as he delivers a good product then he gets a pass.

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Yep games media is to be blamed for this

 

[chaos_planes]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

 

[Man God]

I think if you find something so distasteful that you won't cover it even when it is what you do for a living then you should probably just remain totally silent about it. Advertising your silence just brings more eyes to the matter, doesn't make you look any better, and probably just leads people who are now interested in the thing to it.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I don't think that media should decide whether or not to cover a game based on some of the devs thoughts on other matters. And the whole attitude of "Look at us that we are not covering this game,because the creator has innapropriate/extreme beliefs,please give us a public applause" is fishy to me

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It's not at all what they are doing in the podcast, and a media have every right to define their editorial policies.
I think it's more about caring their audience, i'm a regular listener of Waypoint and i was really waiting for them to release a discussion about the game. It's more abour respecting their audience, and i really like the fact that just didn't ignore the controversy.

 

[Deleted member 14002]

I often wonder how you critique the work of a problematic person. You could make a note of the creator's views, but if it's not interfering with the work, it probably shouldn't be more than a footnote in the work itself.

I don't see many movie critics (if any) let everyone know Polanski is a rapist or Allan is a pedophile when they review their films, gaming seems to be pretty unique in this dilemma.

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A variant of this:

 

[Valkyr1983]

www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/qbnmwv/meeting-adrian-chmielarz-video-gamings-most-opinionated-and-divisive-designer-and-critic-122

Article about lead designer on Vanishing of Ethan Carter who also has used #gamergate in many of his tweets

He's been talked about here before, especially after new game announcement the topic was loaded with comments about it

Hatred might not be GG related although google search indicates it could be involved somewhat but Hatred in general was quite controversial

I specified controversial games not just alt right or racist creators

 

[True Prophecy]

I always struggle with things like this, I mean games are made by more than 1 person, even if they are a co-founder of a studio and a game director. Should we say it has no merit because that guy is a shitty human being? I honestly don't know.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

gamer gate maybe now but...

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So it's a totally different discussion. The issue of extreme violence and promoting far right ideologies is not the same.

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

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I hope this is a joke.

 

[L Thammy]

Do they have to review it? Is it like, if a website mentions a game's name they also have to have a review to go along with it?

 

[Spirited]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

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The fuck, that would be extremly unprofessional.

 

[EndlessNever]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

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Talk about being god damn childish.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/qbnmwv/meeting-adrian-chmielarz-video-gamings-most-opinionated-and-divisive-designer-and-critic-122

Article about lead designer on Vanishing of Ethan Carter who also has used #gamergate in many of his tweets

He's been talked about here before, especially after new game announcement the topic was loaded with comments about it

Hatred might not be GG related although google search indicates it could be involved somewhat but Hatred in general was quite controversial

I specified controversial games not just alt right or racist creators

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Except that the issue here is far-right and GG, i don't have any issue to buy a controversial game. Controversial is not a bad word.

I didn't knew that the lead designer of VEC was a GGator though, so thanks for the input. However, Gamergate is the gatedrug to the actual far-right, Vavrá is way down the rabbit hole.
I'm not saying at all that GG is acceptable, if i would knew that about VEC, i wouldn't have bought the game either.

 

[soulzonik]

I don't support the director's attitute.

However, not covering the game because of its director alone is bullshit, IMHO. All of his team is going to pay for that? All the designers, programmers, etc that worked hard on it and have nothing to do it with this crap? It is like that the director worked alone on this game and let's forget about the rest.

 

[DeeDogg]

This makes...absolutely no sense whatsoever. Angways, the game looks a little bit undercooked to me

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

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Very bad idea, imho. It's way better to make an analysis of the racism and sexism you can find of the game than to rate a game based on the ideology of the founder.
I mean, it would be like giving a 10/10 to a game because the dev have awesome political idea.

 

[Jackpot]

Feels like they're playing into the hands of GG's spouting "SJW press are conspiring to take down games they want to censor!"

I'd probably say this is the worst approach possible.

 

[Jebusman]

I don't support the director's attitute.

However, not covering the game because of its director alone is bullshit, IMHO. All of his team is going to pay for that? All the designers, programmers, etc that worked hard on it and have nothing to do it with this crap? Its is like that the director worked alone on this game and let's forget about the rest.

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I want to ask you seriously, if this essentially means that the director gets a free pass to be a garbage human being, so long as he can assemble enough people that the collateral damage to them is no longer "worth it" to punish his actions.

Because that's what you're stating here. He gets to be a piece of shit, and get a free pass in life, because he has attached enough people to his livelihood that you won't harm his, if it risk theirs as well.

 

[entremet]

I'd rather an article than a podcast. In lieu of a review, give me article at least. I don't agree with their approach here, but it's their site. I only would've preferred this be done in print than a podcast. Or an article on top of the podcast.

 

[aerie]

This is quite interesting, i had a passing interest in the game but had no idea on the background of the creative director and just wouldn't feel comfortable playing/supporting it now, will definitely give the Waypoint podcast a listen and see what develops on this.

 

[Sei]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

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They would lose all credibility imidiately.

If the game was the work of one person, I would agree with them. But it's not, there's an entire studio behind it.

Just review the game on its merits. On a separate article also talk about this specific individual and his problematic viewpoints.

Refusing to talk about a game because of one person, it's just playing into the narrative of censorship.

 

[Deleted member 21094]

Review it and give it a 1/10 to tank the metascore, fucks sake.

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That's a surefire way to kill the site

 

[Cryptosporidium]

In this very particular case I dont understand why it isnt obvious that the 'right' way to review a game like this is to

1. review like any other
2. bring up historical evidence to show that this historical piece is revisionist
3. weigh both points and come out with a conclusion

 

[soulzonik]

I want to ask you seriously, if this essentially means that the director gets a free pass to be a garbage human being, so long as he can assemble enough people that the collateral damage to them is no longer "worth it" to punish his actions.

Because that's what you're stating here. He gets to be a piece of shit, and get a free pass in life, because he has attached enough people to his livelihood that you won't harm his, if it risk theirs as well.

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I started saying that I don't support his attitute. However, not covering the game is not the correct thing to do, IMO, because of the number of people involved that are going to suffer the consequences because of one person.

There must be another way, anything, that don't make the entire team suffers for his attitute. That's what I am saying. I didn't say anything about giving him free pass.

 

[Azzanadra]

Look, Daniel Vavra is piece of shit. I thought he may be humbled after those humiliating review scores compared to the SJW's he likes to attack (his game score less than games by so-called-SJW developers like Naughty Dog or Ubisoft). But ultimately, he isn't the solo guy behind the game- I bought and played KC:D and despite its rough edges, its a good game. Lots of effort went into this product by lots of different people, if Waypoint does not wish to cover this game and if you personally will not buy the game because of the creator's viewpoints, I totally understand that even if I may not agree.

Also, fuck Vavra for trying to appropriate CDPR in his agenda- going by the content of their games, I doubt they are pro-GGers in hiding.

 

[entremet]

They would lose all credibility imidiately.

If the game was the work of one person, I would agree with them. But it's not, there's an entire studio behind it.

Just review the game on its merits. On a separate article also talk about this specific individual and his problematic viewpoints.

Refusing to talk about a game because of one person, it's just playing into the narrative of censorship.

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It's not censorship. However, I do think it plays in the video games are still in a rather young and awkward phase as a cultural medium.

I couldn't imagine Roger Ebert refuse to review a film if he heard of the director's terrible views. He would review the film as a piece of art separate from the creator. It just goes to show how long we have to go.

 

[Jecht]

Feels like they're playing into the hands of GG's spouting "SJW press are conspiring to take down games they want to censor!"

I'd probably say this is the worst approach possible.

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Who cares what GG shitbags think?

 

[GillianSeed79]

I don't support the director's attitute.

However, not covering the game because of its director alone is bullshit, IMHO. All of his team is going to pay for that? All the designers, programmers, etc that worked hard on it and have nothing to do it with this crap? It is like that the director worked alone on this game and let's forget about the rest.

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Waypoint is not under any obligation or requirement to cover every single game that is released. It's an independent media outlet. I like medieval open-world RPGS as much as the next guy, but if the head of the studio behind the game holds beliefs that you are morally opposed to, I have no problem whatsoever with them choosing not to give the game a lot of coverage. And, yes, games are made by more than one person, but purchasing this game would mean financially supporting an Alt-right/gamergater. I simply cannot do that.

 

[tokkun]

I want to ask you seriously, if this essentially means that the director gets a free pass to be a garbage human being, so long as he can assemble enough people that the collateral damage to them is no longer "worth it" to punish his actions.

Because that's what you're stating here. He gets to be a piece of shit, and get a free pass in life, because he has attached enough people to his livelihood that you won't harm his, if it risk theirs as well.

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It can be difficult to take the position of boycotting anything that has at least one shitty employee associated with it.

Look at Waypoint itself. It's owned by Vice, whose founder also founded a white nationalist group. And the company has had multiple sexual harassment claims made against it recently.

 

[newmoneytrash]

I don't support the director's attitute.

However, not covering the game because of its director alone is bullshit, IMHO. All of his team is going to pay for that? All the designers, programmers, etc that worked hard on it and have nothing to do it with this crap? It is like that the director worked alone on this game and let's forget about the rest.

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The cofounder and game director plays a huge and unavoidable role in the creation of a game. His opinions influence the tone of the game at every level

That's like saying people should still watch Woody Allen movies because think about all of the people who worked on the crew

 

[AlmostHuman]

I don't get why some people just don't move on. If his beliefs are so important to you that you don't want to play or write about his game then don't. Simple.

 

[Enduin]

It's not censorship. However, I do think it plays in the video games are still in a rather young and awkward phase as a cultural medium.

I couldn't imagine Roger Ebert refuse to review a film if he heard of the director's terrible views. He would review the film as a piece of art separate from the creator. It just goes to show how long we have to go.

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Why is this automatically an indictment against games and not against the film industry? Do we seriously want to look up to an industry and world where a person like Polanski can be on the run for decades and continue to live a lavish life while maintaining a steady stream of work that bends over backwards to accommodate his fugitive status? The fuck.

 

[Deleted member 2791]

I find it incredibly disrespectful for the dozens, maybe hundreds of people that worked on the game for years to just be denied of a part of their communication because of one guy, no matter how much of an ass he could be. You can both talk about the issues with the game's director and how they could have an influence on the game and review it.

 

[Vadara]

I don't think its because people don't care. It's because people (well, some) can separate the art from the artist. Loving the game so far personally.

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Doing as such is not really actually possible.

 

[Valkyr1983]

I'll keep an eye out for quick look but we shall see

I'd be disappointed but I like the gb east and west staff enough override that

Besides really hating Patrick and Austin, they had that ridiculous article/podcast about Monster Hunter and "imperialism" . Like really?

No matter my feelings though it's their website so they should do what feels right by their user base

It's their call

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

I don't get why some people just don't move on. If his beliefs are so important to you that you don't want to play or write about his game then don't. Simple.

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I'm glad it's getting all this attention. Maybe the next generation of gamers will know what an RPG with actual role playing is like because of all this. Also Eurojank deserves more attention in general.

Edit: I can't praise Vavra, one of the best and most underappreciated writers and directors in the industry in the same way I praised Yoko Taro and Kamiya's success? Might as well make it permanent then.