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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,320
In the 1970s a nation confronted a crisis of traffic deaths, many of them deaths of children. Protesters took to the streets to fight an entrenched culture of drivers who considered roads their domain alone. But this wasn't the U.S.—it was the Netherlands. In 1975 the rate of traffic deaths there was 20 percent higher than in the U.S., but by the mid-2000s it had fallen to 60 percent lower than in the U.S. How did this happen?

Thanks to Stop de Kindermoord ("Stop Child Murder"), a Dutch grassroots movement, traffic deaths fell and streets were restored for people, not cars. Today the country is a haven for cyclists and pedestrians, with people of all ages commuting via protected bike lanes and walking with little fear of being run over. It's time the U.S. and other countries followed that example.

The U.S. has the highest number of traffic deaths among wealthy countries, with more than 38,000 deaths per year between 2015 and 2019. The death rate is more than double the average rate in other wealthy countries. Vehicle crashes are among the leading causes of death in the U.S. But it doesn't have to be this way. We can design or redesign streets to make people drive more slowly or to discourage driving altogether. We can invest in better public transit, including subways and buses with dependable, on-time service. And we can change zoning laws to allow denser housing and mixed-use developments, so people can live closer to where they work, attend school or socialize. These are changes that even the largest, most sprawling cities can and should implement.

Making these changes curbs air pollution, which causes millions of excess deaths worldwide every year, and reduces the amount of greenhouse gas we pump into the atmosphere with every drive to the grocery store. Traffic deaths and air pollution are social justice issues, disproportionately harming people of color. In addition, cities that are more car-dependent are often less accessiblefor the considerable part of the population that can't drive, including children, people with disabilities, people who can't afford a car or insurance, and many older people.

Good to see this in a science publication. It is an opinion piece, so not official views of the publication. Also, I didn't know Netherlands actually fought car culture and won. I thought it was always like that.

www.scientificamerican.com

We Need to Make Cities Less Car-Dependent

Reducing the need for car travel is better for health, the environment and public safety
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,372
I didn't know either about the Netherlands, very cool.

Regarding the US I wish you good luck, it's going to be a tough battle.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,887
Metro Detroit
Good to see this in a science publication. It is an opinion piece, so not official views of the publication. Also, I didn't know Netherlands actually fought car culture and won. I thought it was always like that.

www.scientificamerican.com

We Need to Make Cities Less Car-Dependent

Reducing the need for car travel is better for health, the environment and public safety
Every other Not Just Bikes videos points out that the Netherlands used to look just as car infested as the US did; and people resisted. It's a policy choice that needs some perseverance... In Dresden they just removed a new bike lane because unhinged car drivers were sending death threats to the mayor...
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,481
I live in a Dutch city and don't even have a car. I walk shorter distances and use public transport for longer distances. It's great, even though you do have to dodge a lot of bikes around here.
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,323
I can walk around my town, but when doing so I realize there are NO benches anywhere, so unless you've got the stamina for a few miles with no benches or shade it's going to be gruesome.
 

UnluckyKate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,571
I lived 6 years in Paris. I wish cars would be banned. Only taxis and deliveries. Make room for more faster buses and bikes. Paris is a bliss to bike around but the cars (and the crazy people driving in paris) make it super dodgy
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,728
Every other Not Just Bikes videos points out that the Netherlands used to look just as car infested as the US did; and people resisted. It's a policy choice that needs some perseverance... In Dresden they just removed a new bike lane because unhinged car drivers were sending death threats to the mayor...

That's so fucking depressing.

I lived 6 years in Paris. I wish cars would be banned. Only taxis and deliveries. Make room for more faster buses and bikes. Paris is a bliss to bike around but the cars (and the crazy people driving in paris) make it super dodgy

Honestly, every major city should ban vehicles other than public transit and service vehicles. So much infrastructure, so much space is taken up with just providing parking for cars, to say nothing of congestion. If you're in the city and you're driving a personal vehicle around, you're doing it wrong.

I'll even be generous and say that scooters and motorcycles should still be okay. I'm not sure there's ever been a kid texting on a Vespa that mowed down a sidewalk market.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,034
Wrexham, Wales
I live in the UK and have never even learned to drive. Insane to me that in the US there are literally things (like shops etc) you can't safely get to without a car because there's no pedestrian crossing.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,320
Every other Not Just Bikes videos points out that the Netherlands used to look just as car infested as the US did; and people resisted. It's a policy choice that needs some perseverance... In Dresden they just removed a new bike lane because unhinged car drivers were sending death threats to the mayor...
It's crazy how we're pushing more car travel with the world burning.

It's also one of the few things liberals and conservatives actually want lol. More cars. At least in the US.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,372
I live in a Dutch city and don't even have a car. I walk shorter distances and use public transport for longer distances. It's great, even though you do have to dodge a lot of bikes around here.

It's true than in the Netherlands it's a bit loopsided towards bikes, it should be Pedestrians > Bikes > Public Transport > Motorbikes > Cars


Honestly, every major city should ban vehicles other than public transit and service vehicles. So much infrastructure, so much space is taken up with just providing parking for cars, to say nothing of congestion. If you're in the city and you're driving a personal vehicle around, you're doing it wrong.

What happens if you live in the City and have a parking space at your name and a car?

What happens if there's no good connection between your town and the city, and you work in the City?

You obviously can't ban cars completely, what you can do is what many cities do: cheap parking spaces for those that live in the neighborhood, limit the public parking space to visitors to 2h, improve the public transport, make cities more bike and pedestrian friendly (what is called as pacified neighbourhoods), enable car-free superblocks, etc.

Some examples from my city:


www.theguardian.com

Barcelona's car-free 'superblocks' could save hundreds of lives

Report predicts radical scheme could cut air pollution by a quarter as other cities including Seattle prepare to follow suit
 

G_Shumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,174
Cleveland, OH
There was actually a Philosophy Tube video about this subject recently. It's about an hour long though, so not as quick as reading the OP's article.


View: https://youtu.be/2lHNkUjR9nM?si=lFabGMJMFnMDnvsY

I wish the US in general wasn't so reliant on cars, but it's not like city planners and individuals haven't been trying either. It might still happen one day, otherwise, if I really want to, I'd have to actually move to a big city to achieve a car-free life.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,649
Terana
No shit, the sad part is that at the beginning of the 1900s, many american cities were densely built and had public transit running through it and they ripped it all out/fucked it all up in service of that car.


View: https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/status/1570050196817551360/photo/1


View: https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/status/1547574219285835776/photo/1

But there's real big reasons why cars/suburbs/transit became what they were, and it certainly wasn't by accident and those reasons are why it's hard to believe things will ever meaningfully change in large swaths of the country unless people's attitudes towards 'certain peoples' living alongside them in neighborhoods suddenly changes.

www.nytimes.com

How Segregation Caused Your Traffic Jam (Published 2019)

In some of America’s most congested cities, roadways were designed to keep people “in their place.”

www.startribune.com

When nation's freeways were built, Black communities paid the price

An exhibit at the Hennepin History Museum shows how construction of freeways across the country divided and destroyed Black communities, with effects still felt today.

www.npr.org

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.


It's also why comparisons to a place like the Netherlands or other places in more Homogenous places in Europe sort of miss the mark.
 

Zamorro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
269
Some comparisons between the same street in the seventies and eighties in the Netherlands and now:

Straatbeeld-Amsterdam-jaren-70-tot-nu-e1684314319234.jpg


Straatbeeld-in-Nederland-1882-en-2020-scaled.jpg

Source translated by Google Translate:

Hoe Nederland een fietsland werd – fairhip

En hoe dat helemaal niet zo vanzelfsprekend is als je misschien wel zou denken
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,320
No shit, the sad part is that at the beginning of the 1900s, many american cities were densely built and had public transit running through it and they ripped it all out/fucked it all up in service of that car.


View: https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/status/1570050196817551360/photo/1


View: https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/status/1547574219285835776/photo/1

But there's real big reasons why cars/suburbs/transit became what they were, and it certainly wasn't by accident and those reasons are why it's hard to believe things will ever meaningfully change in large swaths of the country unless people's attitudes towards 'certain peoples' living alongside them in neighborhoods suddenly changes.

www.nytimes.com

How Segregation Caused Your Traffic Jam (Published 2019)

In some of America’s most congested cities, roadways were designed to keep people “in their place.”

www.startribune.com

When nation's freeways were built, Black communities paid the price

An exhibit at the Hennepin History Museum shows how construction of freeways across the country divided and destroyed Black communities, with effects still felt today.

www.npr.org

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.


It's also why comparisons to a place like the Netherlands or other places in more Homogenous places in Europe sort of miss the mark.

I personally think all this is patient zero with the loneliness crisis as well.

That and the lack of third places.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,728
What happens if you live in the City and have a parking space at your name and a car?

What happens if there's no good connection between your town and the city, and you work in the City?

I'm not sure why you'd interpret me saying "every major city should ban vehicles other than public transit and service vehicles" as "every major city should ban those vehicles immediately, tomorrow, with no plan to prepare for this transition." Obviously, any plan to de-carlonize an urban center would have as part of it a plan to improve transit connections between the city center and the surrounding communities, etc.
 

GiveMeCoins

Member
Sep 4, 2022
523
I'm so tired of living in Detroit and needing my car, even while living in the most walkable/fun area. Moving to Chicago because I'm done with my car. Fuck cars
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,150
I'd argue that a walkable city is inherently more third place friendly.
You are discovering hot water.
What I, don't understanding is why Americans are so against people just congregating in the streets. It's not like something forced them to build suburbs with nothing but houses...

Oh fuck, it's racism again isn't it?
 

zero_suit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,580
You are discovering hot water.
What I, don't understanding is why Americans are so against people just congregating in the streets. It's not like something forced them to build suburbs with nothing but houses...

Oh fuck, it's racism again isn't it?
Yes, as with many issues plaguing this country.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,728
Oh fuck, it's racism again isn't it?

Looking at which neighborhoods seemingly every major city chose to demolish to build their freeways, I'm going with...yeah, it's racism again.

Also, classism. Can't even have benches anywhere because some people might sleep on them, so we'll just make the city worse for everyone, etc.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,320
You are discovering hot water.
What I, don't understanding is why Americans are so against people just congregating in the streets. It's not like something forced them to build suburbs with nothing but houses...

Oh fuck, it's racism again isn't it?
It's very weird.

I call it the suburbanization effect. I'm in NYC, which has a lot of transplants. I've also lived and am familiar with some historically minority neighborhoods in NYC--Washington Heights (Primarily Dominican) and Harlem (Primarily Black).

What I notice is that when gentrifiers come in they demand the "comforts of suburbanization" . They want complete quiet. Privacy in public streets! They hate stoop culture, block parties. They call the cops on people hanging out outside, etc. They don't integrate with the community at all.

My thing, why did you fools move to a city?
 

Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
17,606
I live in Australia so the article doesn't 100% apply, but I made the conscious decision not to have a car and I love it. Not everyone can be in that position of course, but it's one of the few things I've done that I consider to be a good thing.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,031
I live in the city that was recently found to have THE worst traffic in the entire world, Manila. What I see here though are several new light rail lines being built, dedicated bus lanes being built (with mixed results as private cars and motorcycles will often use them as fast lanes) and even the country's first subway line is currently under construction. Even though traffic is terrible here, it feels good to live in a place that is TRYING to improve beyond the "One. More. Lane!" method in most US cities. (I'm from the US)

Full disclosure, I'm planning to purchase a car but not for everyday travel. Only to drive into the provinces rather than take 9 hour bus rides. There's ample transportation options to get anywhere in Metro Manila without a car so I wouldn't use it here unless I planned on carrying cargo.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,372
I'm not sure why you'd interpret me saying "every major city should ban vehicles other than public transit and service vehicles" as "every major city should ban those vehicles immediately, tomorrow, with no plan to prepare for this transition." Obviously, any plan to de-carlonize an urban center would have as part of it a plan to improve transit connections between the city center and the surrounding communities, etc.

Even then completely banning them is not feasible, you need at least to allow acces to those people that live in the city and have a car.

Blanket statements like yours are not helpful because they alienate most people
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,728
Blanket statements like yours are not helpful because they alienate most people

*sarcastic thumbs up emoji*

We're fucking destroying the planet, but sure, we can keep pussyfooting around this for another few decades before we even talk about making any serious changes. Wouldn't want to alienate people by starting to advocate for meaningful change now.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,372
*sarcastic thumbs up emoji*

We're fucking destroying the planet, but sure, we can keep pussyfooting around this for another few decades before we even talk about making any serious changes. Wouldn't want to alienate people by starting to advocate for meaningful change now.

This is a huge debate where I live and the right uses your exact words to scare the voters: "the left wants to ban all cars!"

Is not even true and unfortunatelly it works, that puts into jeopardy all the advances Barcelona has had during this last decade regarding the pacification of the city.

Sometimes we are our worst enemy; we don't want to ban all cars, we don't need to ban all cars. We need to ban diesel cars and cars older than 10 years, we want to disincentivize the use of gasoline cars, we want to incentivize the use of hybrid and electric cars.

Each city has it's own path but it's always a nuanced one, and no solution fits all, but there's a path forward for all of them, even in the US (even if it's tough).
 

Dinjooh

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,838
This is a huge debate where I live and the right uses your exact words to scare the voters: "the left wants to ban all cars!"

Is not even true and unfortunatelly it works, that puts into jeopardy all the advances Barcelona has had during this last decade regarding the pacification of the city.

Sometimes we are our worst enemy; we don't want to ban all cars, we don't need to ban all cars. We need to ban diesel cars and cars older than 10 years, we want to disincentivize the use of gasoline cars, we want to incentivize the use of hybrid and electric cars.

Each city has it's own path but it's always a nuanced one, and no solution fits all.

We should most certainly disincentivize the use of all cars.
 

Deathglobe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,536
Florida
I'm all for it, but the amount of time it takes for some of these companies to repave a road or fix a pothole I imagine much longer for them to redesign a city
 

Marz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,799
This is a huge debate where I live and the right uses your exact words to scare the voters: "the left wants to ban all cars!"

Is not even true and unfortunatelly it works, that puts into jeopardy all the advances Barcelona has had during this last decade regarding the pacification of the city.

Sometimes we are our worst enemy; we don't want to ban all cars, we don't need to ban all cars. We need to ban diesel cars and cars older than 10 years, we want to disincentivize the use of gasoline cars, we want to incentivize the use of hybrid and electric cars.

Each city has it's own path but it's always a nuanced one, and no solution fits all, but there's a path forward for all of them, even in the US (even if it's tough).

Electric and hybrid cars still kill people and make it unsafe for cyclists. They also need the ridiculous car-centric infrastructure that is largely the problem here and keeps us from getting modern public transit systems. You're talking about just reducing emissions...which while a step in the right direction is just one of the issues here.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,320
Electric and hybrid cars still kill people and make it unsafe for cyclists. They also need the ridiculous car-centric infrastructure that is largely the problem here and keeps us from getting modern public transit systems. You're talking about just reducing emissions...which while a step in the right direction is just one of the issues here.
Also particulate matter from wheel wear and tear. Trains are superior here.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,372
Electric and hybrid cars still kill people and make it unsafe for cyclists. They also need the ridiculous car-centric infrastructure that is largely the problem here and keeps us from getting modern public transit systems. You're talking about just reducing emissions...which while a step in the right direction is just one of the issues here.

It's both, because we (Barcelona) have a huge issue with polution. We need less cars, and also less polluting cars.

Is not an issue of either off, we can work in both fronts at the same time.

Edit: You can check the first links I provided.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
100%, an electric car is better than a gasoline car but a bicycle or a public transport user is better than an electric car.

This. An electric car reduces the CO2 footprint from driving (depending on the resources used for creating the energy to charge it)
An electric car does nothing with regards to reducing traffic. Reducing the need for parking spaces. Reducing the costs of upkeep of car-focussed infrastructure.

Even a Tesla still needs a parking spot at home, a parking spot at work, a parking spot at the grocery store and PLENTY of road to take you from and to these places.

Banning cars from cities isn't about the CO2 footprint of cars, it's about reclaiming the SPACE, freeing it up for bikes, public transport, pedestrians and well, benches, trees - you name it.
 

SteveMeister

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,824
No cars is fine for people who live in the city -- many city dwellers don't even own a car. But not so much for people who live outside the city and come for work/business or tourism. For them, you'd need lots of new car-specific infrastructure outside the city, so they can board public transit. There's some in many cities now, but nowhere near enough. In the US, of course.
 

Sheentak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,292
The biggest problem is also most people can't afford to live on major cities. I am in my mid 30s and having to learn to drive as I can no longer afford to live in the city aka London .
 

maigret

Member
Jun 28, 2018
3,204
I've been reading a recent book on this called City Limits which I'd recommend to anyone interested in the topic of urban highways. It's super interesting because it talks about the genesis of the Interstate Highway program, which was proposed by Eisenhower in the early 50s. At the time of the proposal there was a kind of heated debate among the program coordinators about how the Federal highway system should be built - it was originally intended to be developed for the purpose of interstate traffic, and the overseer of the project was particularly vehement that highways were not intended to solve local issues, i.e., cities shouldn't be using the highway program to alleviate congestion in their urban centers. He actually argued that cities needed to adopt mass transit systems, and that the highway was not a solution to urban vehicle traffic. Even in the 50s congestion was a nightmare in US cities, with the number of cars on the road almost tripling in this decade.

Ultimately city and state governments won out and they were allowed to demolish large swathes of urban cores in basically every city in the country (with a few exceptions like Washington DC, where people actually successfully fought against the construction of a highway). Of course we know that city officials couched this destruction in language like "urban renewal" that disproportionately targeted minority homeowners (whose property was cheaper to acquire, by design of course). So now we are stuck with this horrible mess that could have been avoided. It's en ecological and economic nightmare what we live in today.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,291
We do need to. It took years to repave a few miles of road on I-5 between Sac and Redding (CA), so I don't imagine solutions being realized any time soon thanks to the aggravatingly snail-like progress there is on any major project.

I don't live in a city. I'm not sure I ever will. It's just far too expensive.

Meanwhile in San Francisco we have a business owner going on hunger strike over bike lane.

abc7news.com

SF business owner plans 30-day hunger strike in protest of Valencia St. center bike lane

A San Francisco business owner is planning to go on a 30-day hunger strike to protest the controversial center bike lane and the two parklets he lost after the bike lane was installed.

rocky-iv-dolph-lundgren.gif
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,917
San Francisco
Meanwhile in San Francisco we have a business owner going on hunger strike over bike lane.

abc7news.com

SF business owner plans 30-day hunger strike in protest of Valencia St. center bike lane

A San Francisco business owner is planning to go on a 30-day hunger strike to protest the controversial center bike lane and the two parklets he lost after the bike lane was installed.

I don't blame him. I can't imagine how hard it is to keep a business open in SF. Parklets are great too; I love the ones in Alameda on Park Street.
 

bmdubya

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,520
Colorado
It's not gonna happen; Americans just couldn't care less about the amount of deaths directly or indirectly caused by car dependency. If Americans did care, they would start by following traffic laws while behind the wheel. But there is this big push to remove personal responsibility when someone is behind the wheel of a car. Idk if it's because "personal responsibility" is seen as a conservative talking point so we need to immediately dismiss anyone who uses that term, but a car is a machine that responds to human input. So anyone speeding, running red lights, running stop signs, not signaling while turning, using their cell phone while driving, etc. is the fault of the person operating their car and not infrastructure, which I see so many people arguing about.

I live in an area that has traffic calming measures and people still regularly drive 10-15 mph over the speed limit. This is a neighborhood with an elementary school, so many young families with kids. We need to come to the conclusion that the vast, vast majority of Americans just do not give a shit about anyone but themselves and that mindset is made even worse when someone gets behind the wheel of a car.

I live in what is considered one of the most bike friendly cities in the country, and 4% of daily trips are made on a bike. One might immediately go to "well people have to commute a far distance for work," but even when you look at the numbers based on distance, when the trip is 3 miles or less, a car is used over 70% of the time. A 3 mile bike ride is 15 minutes. The vast, vast majority of Americans see nothing wrong with our cities being built around cars, and are actively protesting against the build out of more bike lanes, public transportation, and traffic calming measures. We see the popularity of places like /r/fuckcars and think more Americans share that opinion but it is a small minority of Americans that want to change up our infrastructure. Just like with guns, people see all the death that comes from cars and just shrug their shoulders and go "nothing we can do about it."