We need to talk about responding to Trans related issues

[Kyuuji]

Wasn't prepared for the feels on this chilly Monday evening but you've stoked warmth in my heart with this one Xaszatm, thank you. Same to other people posting in support. Anyone observing the threads over the past few months will know what this one is referring to, and I'm sure many have seen the frustration from trans and non-binary people in that regard. Certainly my own is well documented.

70yo trans folk are showing more tact, humility and grace around these issues than whichever hyper-social personality is winning this years 'ally award' from the cis crowd. Personalities that hold apologies hostage behind dollar revenue or slate the communities they claim to protect if one of their clique is criticised. Then people have the gall to suggest we're the ones putting them on pedestals or deifying them while they rush to deflect any whiff of criticism coming their way.

You have people worrying over rich, influential and immensely popular personalities like they've taken a rubber bullet to the larynx. While telling the trans and non-binary people they've actually hurt they're being overly sensitive, they don't get comedy, they're being ridiculous, that it's not actually transphobic, that they're fun-hating robots, looking for a reason to be upset or innumerable other one-line dismissals that keep them on the nice side of the banhammer.

That's without even delving into they/them threads or wider trans discussions in general, which follow the same course.

I don't know what the solution is, but moderators posting acknowledging the issue and expressing a wish for a better tomorrow might want to discuss how to remedy it as it's not uncommon that I've been fighting the same frustrations mentioned above in threads while staff members post around the periphery.

 

[Ketkat]

What's worse, of this sort of harassment isn't often openly bigoted, but rather couched a very civilized sort of gaslighting (e.g. a post just saying "I don't see what's the big deal.") or very carefully phrased trollish non-sequitors (e.g. in a thread with people criticizing CfA for their stances on LGBTQIA issues, "Chik-fil-A is delicious!"). Often, these drive-by posters don't even come back to the thread. This sort of thing often (but not always) successfully evades bans. It's tiresome.

Click to shrink...

This is absolutely a major issue that doesn't ever seem to really get addressed within the moderation. Throughout the entirety of that last thread and the amount of dismissive and insulting takes that we had towards the trans community here, there were 2 warnings and a 1 day ban given out.

Someone saying "This is a ridiculous and stupid thing to get mad about." is someone that doesn't see action. When someone says something blatantly transphobic they'll get a small ban for sure, but these people that are insulting and dismissive towards us never see action. They continue to act this way while seeing the trans community here as the real problem because that's what's allowed to happen time and time again.

Not all of the fault falls on Era moderation, but we're not really able to talk about these issues that exist or question them without fear of being hit worse than the people that are insulting us for criticizing bigotry.

 

[Gustaf]

i would like to say that if you see me saying something wrong please correct me, because honestly there are people who want to learn about these topics.

i remember when this forum opened and the trans thread was opened i was attacked for asking if a straight man liking a trans woman was homosexual in nature, but i honestly didnt know back in the day.

 

[L Thammy]

I don't know if this is a place to put this, but I'm reminded of an realization I made a bit ago. After watching a bunch of Whose Line is Anyway recently, I noticed that there were a lot of jokes made about trans people that were largely in the context of talk shows. Like, it presents talk shows as exploitative with trans people as typical guests, but at the same time has no sympathy for the guests. Other comedy around the era makes similar jokes, like some episode of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air making it around Oprah.

(On a positive note, Colin Mocharie's daughter is trans and he's done comedy for LGBT events, so he's presumably changed his perspective on those jokes since then.)

Since I've only been learning about trans issues relatively recently, I thought of trans people as an invisible minority. But when jokes are made at their expense to a mass audience, I realize that there have actually long been outlets where trans people have tried to reach out with their voice. The reason they seemed to be invisible to me was because those voices had been shouted down and treated as ridiculous.

 

[Xaszatm]

We have a thread? I don't know how I missed that.

Click to shrink...

https://www.resetera.com/threads/transera-era1-were-people-okay.1909/

You already found it but just in case anyone else was interested, here is the thread.

 

[Deleted member 2761]

This is absolutely a major issue that doesn't ever seem to really get addressed within the moderation. Throughout the entirety of that last thread and the amount of dismissive and insulting takes that we had towards the trans community here, there were 2 warnings and a 1 day ban given out.

Someone saying "This is a ridiculous and stupid thing to get mad about." is someone that doesn't see action. When someone says something blatantly transphobic they'll get a small ban for sure, but these people that are insulting and dismissive towards us never see action. They continue to act this way while seeing the trans community here as the real problem because that's what's allowed to happen time and time again.

Not all of the fault falls on Era moderation, but we're not really able to talk about these issues that exist or question them without fear of being hit worse than the people that are insulting us for criticizing bigotry.

Click to shrink...

I just want to add that the natural consequence to the hurt that comes from this sort of discourse is anger and frustration, and that manifests in a very hostile way that catches warnings and bans. Personally, I think whenever there's a controversy such as this is for the mods to step in with a threadmark and "direct" the discourse a little by acknowledging the points of the marginalized minority. I don't think anybody wants to get to the point where warnings and bans are tossed hours after the fact; rather, they'd prefer have a discussion where such things aren't eventually found necessary.

 

[Bio]

I'm a member of the community too, and I see a disconnect between a plea for empathy and a complaint that not everyone thinks in the same manner.

Click to shrink...

This thread isn't about you.

 

[Grayson]

Literally the most threatened and abused community on earth and still some people want to make it worst for them.

 

[TalonJH]

In minority issue threads if you have no real stakes in the issue you just need to stop for a second and listen. If you have questions, humble yourself and make sure you are actually there to learn and not argue. Remove your opinion from the question(assuming it's sincere) and understand that you are not entering the conversation with equal knowledge while continuing to be respectful.

I posted a dumb joke thread where we mocked games as if we were twelve year olds and someone used that as a springboard to whine about a gender issues thread. Since I'm cis it's not my place to be offended, but it's certainly a disappointment to see people act that way.

It strikes me as being part of a broader tendency to undermine issues around minorities by reframing them as complains from distant, disinterested non-minorities, or by shouldering them to solve all of bigotry before they try to defend themselves.

Click to shrink...

Clicked on your link to see what was said...WTF.

 

[Surfinn]

There needs to be more threads like this on ERA. Thanks OP

 

[Gleethor]

Thanks OP

 

[HardTimesFamilyPride]

Nice OP. As a black man, I rarely post in trans threads because my goal is to read and learn.

Ketkat and Kyuuji especially have insightful posts and I'm happy to read them.

Click to shrink...

They really do and I always sit up and pay attention when I see their usernames

 

[Xaszatm]

Great OP! Agree 100%.

Click to shrink...

nb/amab here. Thank you for posting this, OP. It is much appreciated. :)

Click to shrink...

Thank you so, so much. This is super appreciated ; w;

Click to shrink...

this is pretty dope, gj Xas

me not knowing a whole bunch about trans issues kept me from posting in the lindsay ellis thread that popped up today, so hopefully i can learn more in this thread

Click to shrink...

It sucks that this thread was needed but it was. Thanks for doing this OP. I'm still upset over that one person in a thread a month ago who was complaining that trans identity shouldn't be on birth certificates due to potentially "misinforming medical specialists" or some stupid BS like that. Even though that thread is old now, I'm still upset about it. I'm tired of having to defend my existence on a daily basis in life.

Click to shrink...

Nice OP. As a black man, I rarely post in trans threads because my goal is to read and learn.

Ketkat and Kyuuji especially have insightful posts and I'm happy to read them.

Click to shrink...

Wasn't prepared for the feels on this chilly Monday evening but you've stoked warmth in my heart with this one Xaszatm, thank you. Same to other people posting in support. Anyone observing the threads over the past few months will know what this one is referring to, and I'm sure many have seen the frustration from trans and non-binary people in that regard. Certainly my own is well documented.

70yo trans folk are showing more tact, humility and grace around these issues than whichever hyper-social personality is winning this years 'ally award' from the cis crowd. Personalities that hold apologies hostage behind dollar revenue or slate the communities they claim to protect if one of their clique is criticised. Then people have the gall to suggest we're the ones putting them on pedestals or deifying them while they rush to deflect any whiff of criticism coming their way.

You have people worrying over rich, influential and immensely popular personalities like they've taken a rubber bullet to the larynx. While telling the trans and non-binary people they've actually hurt they're being overly sensitive, they don't get comedy, they're being ridiculous, that it's not actually transphobic, that they're fun-hating robots, looking for a reason to be upset or innumerable other one-line dismissals that keep them on the nice side of the banhammer.

That's without even delving into they/them threads or wider trans discussions in general, which follow the same course.

I don't know what the solution is, but moderators posting acknowledging the issue and expressing a wish for a better tomorrow might want to discuss how to remedy it as it's not uncommon that I've been fighting the same frustrations mentioned above in threads while staff members post around the periphery.

Click to shrink...

There needs to be more threads like this on ERA. Thanks OP

Click to shrink...

Thanks OP

Click to shrink...

Thank you for the kind words.

Literally the most threatened and abused community on earth and still some people want to make it worst for them.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, many people are unaware of how horrifying things are for trans folk. From discrimination in nearly every work and public service, to violence and murder towards trans folk simply for being trans.

 

[Deleted member 21411]

Can this be sticked? I see this happen far too many times and i think it's important everyone see it.

 

[Surfinn]

Also wanna let Kyuuji and Ketkat know that I greatly appreciate your posts.

 

[Grayson]

I'm not completely qualified but do we have someone or a few someone's who would be willing to put together a trans teaching thread here? I've found that knowledge creates allies.

Sadly I've found so much ignorance in the LGBT so the straight community much need this help even more.

 

[GraphicViolets]

I'm not completely qualified but do we have someone or a few someone's who would be willing to put together a trans teaching thread here? I've found that knowledge creates allies.

Sadly I've found so much ignorance in the LGBT so the straight community much need this help even more.

Click to shrink...

I responded to you in the trans thread but i figure its worth other people seeing this. Ketkat made a really good thread last year

Transgender 101

This thread is meant to be a way for you to educate yourself on trans people and trans issues. If you have any questions, no matter what it is, please ask. What does it mean to be transgender? Transgender people are people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were thought...

www.resetera.com

 

[Vibranium]

I like to lurk and learn in terms of minority issues since I can't speak from a personal level, and if someone is struggling to understand while posting in a thread it's always a good step to ask a member politely and with empathy. Hbomberguy's trans rights stream was a great way to help educate people as well. Not hard to be empathetic to trans people and if you've got concerns on issues, just ask someone to look at their perspective.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Yeah, definitely agree here, I guess I just bristled at the OP's bluntness, which seems politically counterproductive to me...

Click to shrink...

I mean, steering discussion away from how topics of trans discourse is on this forum, to being about your feelings on OPs tone is kind of why thread like this was created.

 

[Odrion]

Maybe this thread should be stickied? It's important, but I don't know how it's going to stay on the current pages.

 

[Arjen]

I always follow the threads to learn, and I am willing to learn, I'm not willing to have an opinion forced upon me though, and most of the times that is what I feel is happening. That feeling can be totally wrong though, hence why I always just read and never join in the conversation.

 

[Deleted member 56909]

Yep I don't post often occasionally I'll make a dumb thread. But I've noticed alot of folks dont super follow trans issues as closely as other parts of the community. That said the hardest thing to come to terms with while transitioning is just dealing with everyone's thoughts and opinions on what it means to be trans. So I feel that there is no unified idea on what transitioning is trying to apsire to. I think if it helps I'm willing to awnser questions about my journey as an example of how different everyone is. At the end of the day just respect someones journey and maybe listen to us as we want to be heard. ,
Edit: sorry if I seem hostile I'm just frustrated reading threads and especially the most recent one where I had the urge to just close era for the rest of the day. I love this site alot but seeing people not get trans issues gets me really upset.

 

[Deleted member 56909]

Also that reminds me of comedians in general using trans people as a low hanging fruit don't do it. I went to a show with friends and got up and walked out of the commedy club when dude was making sexist transphobic jokes at my expense.

 

[Kyuuji]

Also that reminds me of comedians in general using trans people as a low hanging fruit don't do it. I went to a show with friends and got up and walked out of the commedy club when dude was making sexist transphobic jokes at my expense.

Click to shrink...

It's a common vector of dismissal. Usually propped up by suggesting that comedy doesn't have lines drawn in the sand - that it's sacrosanct. Which of course is nonsense.

Used to paint the person showing frustration as being unable to handle something harmless; 'a simple joke'. Which is good for a quick glance but what it's really saying is that you find transphobic comments innocuous. That the difference between the things trans people have flung at them by transphobes and a joke is the act of someone holding a mic in front of an audience.

 

[Sweeney Swift]

This thread needs to be stickied

Era, we need to have a discussion about how we respond to the plight and feelings of the LGBT community, especially if one is not a part of this community. Many times in the past couple of weeks/months I've noticed posts responding to an OP, particularly with trans related issues, with either dimissal or derrision. There is an attempt by people who are not trans to dismiss the OP and any trans folk as simple "outrage" without really listening to why they are upset. There will be attempts to categorize the anger and hurt of trans folk as simple "cancel culture" and to dismiss dissapointment or sorrow as bile and anger. There is a false attempt to tell trans folk to forgive and forget without actually addressing the problem in the first place in the name of "solidarity". And it needs to stop.

This cannot continue. Trans folk deserve to be heard without this dismisal of thier views, particularly when it involves trans rights. Being an "ally" does not give you the same voice to outshout and silence trans folk about trans topics. If you do so, you're not actually being an ally.

Click to shrink...

There ain't one lie here, and I've posted about it many times regarding the LGBTQ+ community here as a whole

 

[Deleted member 56909]

Seconded on the thread sticky this is a serious issue and these types of threads tend to be buried.

 

[Kyuuji]

Evidently this needs a bump.

 

[Ferrs]

Just saw this thanks to the other thread. That was a good read, and a necessary thread, OP. I would agree with other people that this may deserve a sticky. Hell the old KetKat thread already deserved it.

It is sad that today, a lot of cis-people, using the so called "cancel culture" to defend some famous person doing something wrong, they are actually "cancelling" the voice of the trans community, belitting their concerns and basically mandating how they should react and who they should like. Don't think because you are a so called ally you can be the voice of others, take a step back, listen, help and support, don't take their voice trying to be it.

 

[Deleted member 56909]

Just saw this thanks to the other thread. That was a good read, and a necessary thread, OP. I would agree with other people that this may deserve a sticky. Hell the old KetKat thread already deserved it.

It is sad that today, a lot of cis-people, using the so called "cancel culture" to defend some famous person doing something wrong, they are actually "cancelling" the voice of the trans community, belitting their concerns and basically mandating how they should react and who they should like. Don't think because you are a so called ally you can be the voice of others, take a step back, listen, help and support, don't take their voice trying to be it.

Click to shrink...

And I have to say that when you engage in this behavior your just causing more problems in the long run. Anyone who does this needs to take a step back and go "Are my actions to defend this person hurting others in the long run." Someone earlier mentioned having empathy and their exactly right. There are so many people who are so impulsive it's becoming a problem.

 

[anariel]

This is a great thread OP. I worry that the people that this might pertain to will simply overlook the thread, but it still bears saying regardless. This forum is, generally, pretty open minded and friendly but it definitely has its blind spots.

 

[Xaszatm]

I said this in another thread but I might as well put this here as well

As someone who isn't trans, I want others to correct me when I do something that is anti-trans. I feel that if I'm coddled it will just lead to me continuously to make the same mistakes over and over.

Also, personal hot take time, but I feel like people put allies, particularly those who aren't part of the community being marginalized, too much on a pedestal. An ally shouldn't be given leeway just because they say they are an ally. They also need to follow through. If they make a mistake they need to correct and apologize, even if the intent wasn't to be anti-trans.

 

[Kyuuji]

Only thing I'd say is that we repeatedly get told we're putting allies on pedestals when we aren't. We like the content that's good and criticise the things that are bad.

The people that are putting them on pedestals and deifying them are those breaking their ankle to be the first to deflect any criticism coming their way. To not allow anyone to express a critical opinion of them.

As with almost all of these elements it's projection:

"Stop putting them on pedestals"
Says the person attacking anyone that criticizes the personality they like.

"No one can do anything with nuance anymore"
Says the person bundling innocuous forum posts with widespread harassment campaigns.

"People are just taking it too far and it's getting abusive"
Says the person that's spent paragraphs directly insulting specific trans people and dismissing their concerns out of hand.

 

[Xaszatm]

Only thing I'd say is that we repeatedly get told we're putting allies on pedestals when we aren't. We like the content that's good and criticise the things that are bad.

The people that are putting them on pedestals and deifying them are those breaking their ankle to be the first to deflect any criticism coming their way. To not allow anyone to express a critical opinion of them.

As with almost all of these elements it's projection:

"Stop putting them on pedestals"
Says the person attacking anyone that criticizes the personality they like.

"No one can do anything with nuance anymore"
Says the person bundling innocuous forum posts with widespread harassment campaigns.

"Frankly it's getting to the point where it's abusive and ruining discourse"
Says the person that's spent paragraphs directly insulting specific trans people and dismissing their concerns out of hand.

Click to shrink...

Ah yeah, I meant as people who are defending them, not the trans community. Sorry my grammar didn't convert my meaning clear enough.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

Only thing I'd say is that we repeatedly get told we're putting allies on pedestals when we aren't. We like the content that's good and criticise the things that are bad.

The people that are putting them on pedestals and deifying them are those breaking their ankle to be the first to deflect any criticism coming their way. To not allow anyone to express a critical opinion of them.

As with almost all of these elements it's projection:

"Stop putting them on pedestals"
Says the person attacking anyone that criticizes the personality they like.

"No one can do anything with nuance anymore"
Says the person bundling innocuous forum posts with widespread harassment campaigns.

"Frankly it's getting to the point where it's abusive and ruining discourse"
Says the person that's spent paragraphs insulting trans people and dismissing their concerns out of hand.

Click to shrink...

exactly, its so bizarre being told I need to educate myself on parasocial relationships and I'm putting well known allies on pedestals is fucking hilarious considering I'm just treating them like I would anybody with an amblified voice. If I as a cis straight dude can understand people's criticisms of these people, even when in cases where the behavior being criticised is a thing I myself might say sometimes without thinking, then why can't they? And saying shit like this to trans people who have concerns is ten times worse than saying it to me, like people need to cut that shit out

 

[Kyuuji]

Ah yeah, I meant as people who are defending them, not the trans community. Sorry my grammar didn't convert my meaning clear enough.

Click to shrink...

Ah my bad, missed the we in the paragraph. Is something I've been meaning to address though as it's so apparent in each case. Constantly being yelled at for something that no one is doing but the person yelling.

exactly, its so bizarre being told I need to educate myself on parasocial relationships and I'm putting well known allies on pedestals is fucking hilarious considering I'm just treating them like I would anybody with an amblified voice. If I as a cis straight dude can understand people's criticisms of these people, even when in cases where the behavior being criticised is a thing I myself might say sometimes without thinking, then why can't they? And saying shit like this to trans people who have concerns is ten times worse than saying it to me, like people need to cut that shit out

Click to shrink...

Pretty much. The perpetual concern is for the internet personality and not the minority they keep treading on.

 

[mutantmagnet]

Not being shitty to trans folks shouldn't be so difficult...

Click to shrink...

It usually takes decent up bringing to be taught how to be civil and courteous to anyone. You make it sound like it takes no effort for people to not be assholes or jerks. How we choose to react to situations not of our own making is a big part of learning how to be mature.

 

[Xaszatm]

Ah my bad, missed the we in the paragraph. Is something I've been meaning to address though as it's so apparent in each case. Constantly being yelled at for something that no one is doing but the person yelling.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it is something that is very common. It's frustrating.

 

[mutantmagnet]

What's worse, of this sort of harassment isn't often openly bigoted, but rather couched a very civilized sort of gaslighting (e.g. a post just saying "I don't see what's the big deal.") or very carefully phrased trollish non-sequitors (e.g. in a thread with people criticizing CfA for their stances on LGBTQIA issues, "Chik-fil-A is delicious!"). Often, these drive-by posters don't even come back to the thread. This sort of thing often (but not always) successfully evades bans. It's tiresome.

Click to shrink...

This is a specific problem that pervades every thread, whether it be movies, games, comics or more personal subjects, race, gender, religion. Arguably there should be temp bans for these posts that get added to a separate score based on casual indifference. IMO I think the community would become healthier over time when certain people earn enough infractions for these indifference posts that would have avoided getting bans for what gets warnings and bans now.

 

[Kyuuji]

Pinged a report a few hours ago suggesting it for a sticky, will see.

 

[Deleted member 56909]

I hope this thread does get it we need to just address these issues.

 

[FeistyBoots]

Note 1: While this was made in response to various trans-folk related threatds, I've noticed this happen under other LGBT threads as well. While this OP will be focused on trans related issues, feel free to discuss this happening in other LGBT-related threads.

Note 2: I myself am not trans and do not wish for folks to use this to silence other trans folk. I also want to state that though I did consult with trans folk in the creation of this thread, I do not speak for the trans community.

Era, we need to have a discussion about how we respond to the plight and feelings of the LGBT community, especially if one is not a part of this community. Many times in the past couple of weeks/months I've noticed posts responding to an OP, particularly with trans related issues, with either dimissal or derrision. There is an attempt by people who are not trans to dismiss the OP and any trans folk as simple "outrage" without really listening to why they are upset. There will be attempts to categorize the anger and hurt of trans folk as simple "cancel culture" and to dismiss dissapointment or sorrow as bile and anger. There is a false attempt to tell trans folk to forgive and forget without actually addressing the problem in the first place in the name of "solidarity". And it needs to stop.

This cannot continue. Trans folk deserve to be heard without this dismisal of thier views, particularly when it involves trans rights. Being an "ally" does not give you the same voice to outshout and silence trans folk about trans topics. If you do so, you're not actually being an ally.

In addition, criticising an action as transphobic is not the same thing as "cancel culture" or "the left eating itself". Trans folk criticize these actions to in order to inform the person making these statements as well as those reading the criticism about this to prevent the same mistake from happening again. To dismiss such criticism simply silences the voices of the trans community.

Furthermore, "cancelling" someone means to not buy their product, which last I checked was called consumer rights. And even if "cancelling" meant this censure you seem to think it does, none of the people that were cancelled actually went away so it's not like it even worked if that was the actual purpose.

Bottom line, trans folk should not have to be worried to defend their opinions by those who are not trans. You should listen to them and try to understand, not dismiss them and yell at them to ignore their pain.

Click to shrink...

Gosh I love this post. Thank you.

 

[Kyuuji]

Guess we'll take that as a no since it's well past 24hrs since lol.

 

[yckmd_]

There needs to be more threads like this on ERA. Thanks OP

Click to shrink...

Not only do we need more threads like this, we need more of this attitude out in other threads as well. As a cis user I understand the feeling of "it's not my place to be offended" when you see others being shitty in threads, but at the same time it's important to let people know when they're being shitty (and hopefully it becomes an experience to learn from.)

 

[TrailerParkRanger]

I applaud your efforts. I learned a lot. And I have questions about my own behavior that I need to examine further.

I do not think Era will change though. I think some individuals may, which is great. But on the whole, Era is too comfortable indulging in its self satisfaction with presenting as progressive than actually trying to be progressive.

 

[mael]

Great OP!
I'm not that active and as I said before this isn't usually the kind of issues I talk about for obvious reasons (I invariably come up as a fool and can post stuffs that harm people with no intent).
Remember cis-people, the issue ain't about you or your issues, it's about not mindlessly act like a heartless idiot.
If you don't care about not hurting people, why are you even here?

As an aside, I don't understand the plea people have against 'cancel culture'.
Like people here will claim that boycott doesn't work and how that's pointless but somehow "cancel culture" is a thing?
Stop mindlessly stanning for idiot running their mouths for once, especially disappointing to see that on this side of the board when that kind of gregarian behavior is so easily mocked in offtopic when people go to bat for companies fucking them over.

 

[Aske]

All the love to Trans Era.

 

[Deleted member 56909]

We're cool and are awesome and isn't afraid of anything!

 

[Bronx-Man]

I legitimately don't understand what compels people that KNOW they don't know shit about trans issues to comment on them here as if their opinion means a damn. Sometimes it's best to just shut up and listen to what the community affected has to say.

 

[Apollo]

Guess we'll take that as a no since it's well past 24hrs since lol.

Click to shrink...

maybe after another series of threads with, invariably, the exact same issues

 

[Xaszatm]

I'll just "subtly" keep this thread on the front page as much as possible by...er...*smoke bomb*