BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Sady Doyle said:
We understand, from her first moments, that this is a story about a woman who is powerless, and that her powerlessness stems largely from being female. The obstacle, then, is misogyny, and her arc, her radical change, will presumably be a journey from powerlessness to power. Women who expected Daenerys to become a benevolent feminist ruler, to break the wheel and end the cycle of oppression, were not stupid; they were following basic story logic. Their expectations didn't spring from delusion or narcissism, they sprang from Star Wars.

And if some of those women got a little too invested, if they bought some cheesy merch, if they named their kids Khaleesi, well: Are we really unclear on why that happened? Still? "Rape victim who wants to end rape," as an identity, is not "man who reclaims masculinity by dealing meth." It's certainly not "whiny teen who becomes psychic space ninja." It's an identity lots of women in the audience actually share. It's just that, while the rest of us were still trying to find our power, Daenerys actually did.
Source

Yeah, I'm upset.

I get it: if you thought this had a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. Go ahead and post the gif or whatever constitutes your witty response. I'm an idiot because I got invested in the wrong part of the story for so many years, I'm a fool who apparently didn't notice I was rooting for a fascist monster the entire time. I guess I'm just stupid.

I guess I finally know what TLJ detractors feel. I still think their disappointment with Luke's character arc stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the Jedi and the Force, but I don't blame them for their misunderstanding. Decades of Star Wars media have provided a very muddled interpretation of the meaning of the Force, so I can see why they would be very confused and betrayed by a more spiritual and pacifist ending to Luke's character rather than something cool and badass. They thought they understood the character and his story and were instead left empty and unsatisfied.

But...at least he got an ending. At least he dies a hero.

When I think about Game of Thrones now, I just get this crushing sense of disappointment and emptiness. I've read the books three times, I've rewatched the show four times. I've spent hundreds of hours discussing and debating and theorizing. I loved this franchise and I evangelized it to everyone I knew. Even when the writing went off the rails in season 5, I still got immense enjoyment from the series. I would defend the series as a whole as being better than its individual parts. You can even find my posts, as recently as mid-April, defending the show as an entertaining spectacle unlike anything on TV. Now I look back on it all and just feel empty, like it was all a massive waste of my time.

Game of Thrones and ASOIAF were always a story with three major moving parts. There's the political war for the Iron Throne, starring Tyrion Lannister and a variety of others, in which dozens of houses wage war, make alliances, and stab each other in the back, to see who can accumulate the ultimate power. There's the mysteries of the north, starring Jon Snow, who is lost and feels without a destiny until he joins the Night's Watch and finds brotherhood and a new purpose: fighting a deadly enemy that knows no allegiance to any house and seeks only to destroy everything. And then, across the sea, is a third storyline segregated from the others. For five books (and counting) and six seasons, we follow the almost completely unrelated story of Daenerys Targaryen.

Daenerys, or Dany, as we like to call her, is a teenage girl who was born amidst the collapse of her house and her family. As an infant, she gets shipped off to a foreign country with her brother. She grows up hearing stories of the life she could have had and the country her brother wants to rule. She just wants a house with a red door. Viserys, who exhibits sadistic and perverse tendencies, tells her that one day he will marry her. She will never have a life of her own. Then he changes his mind and sells her off to a savage warlord instead, to be raped and used as property. This would be the end of her story. But it's not the end. She's stronger than Drogo, and bends him to her will. She makes him care for her as his equal. When Viserys oversteps his bounds and threatens her unborn child, she gets Drogo to kill him. Finally, she's taken control of her story. Dany starts to form her own identity: she is someone who wants to make the world better for the downtrodden, and to take the Iron Throne in the process. She tries to change the Dothraki and end their cruelty towards women. When Drogo is injured, she becomes desperate and enlists a witch to save him. Drogo is left in a coma and her unborn baby is dead.

She thought she could have a better life and now everything she loved was taken from her. Dejected, she steps into a pyre with her dragon eggs to die. But she doesn't die. She comes out, unburnt, with three dragons. They're the only children she'll ever know. She takes control of Drogo's khalasar and they set out to fulfill her mission. When she learns of the slavery in Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen, she doesn't stand idly by and let these socially acceptable injustices continue to go unchallenged. Even as everyone around her tells her that's just how the world is, khaleesi, she refuses to accept it. She doesn't accept the world as it is. She wants to make it better. She frees the slaves and conquers their cities. In Meereen, where she finally has the army and the strength to sail to Westeros, she decides against it. Instead, she decides to remain in Meereen so she can learn how to rule. Winning was easy, young lady, governing's harder. She doesn't always succeed at what she tries to do. She tries things and sometimes they fail. Sometimes she does things that others call cruel, like executing the slave masters. But everything she does is guided by a sense of justice for those who can't fight for themselves. She's been told that her father went mad, and that she might too. She is ever-conscious of this. But she doesn't have to be like her father. She can be kind and strong instead of wicked and weak.

Dany served as an inspiration to many young people who looked at the world we live in today and saw that it needed to be changed -- radically. People who knew that our system was rigged, that common people are being hurt by the powerful, and that the only way to fix it is to break the wheel. Yes, she kills people along the way -- cruel, violent, wicked people who, in a feudal medieval society, deserved to die. That is the way of Westeros and Essos, and should not be apologized for. Perhaps if we had been harsher to the slaveowners of the United States, and the traitors who fought to defend their right to own human beings as property, the modern US might look very different. For viewers who wanted to see a better world, Dany served as a power fantasy to make that world a reality. Power fantasies aren't really what ASOIAF is about, but this type of story -- the downtrodden girl who rises to the highest of heights in the pursuit of uplifting others alongside her -- is so rare in fantasy fiction. Why couldn't we have just this one?

Eventually, after six years, she goes to Westeros to take back the Iron Throne and hopefully change it just a bit. Maybe she can make it just a little better. But thanks to the advice of the wise Tyrion and Varys -- and a little help from some of the worst and most contrived writing in TV history -- everything goes wrong. Her fleet is devastated, huge portions of her armies and her alliances are destroyed, and Jon Snow shows up with a wild story about walking dead men and the fate of the world. Dany could just ignore him. She could go to the Red Keep and wipe Cersei off the face of the planet. But she doesn't, because she trusts Jon, and she eventually loves him. Because what she really wants is the family she never had and a house with a red door. So she goes north to help him and loses one of her dragons, her baby, to a magic plot device so that the White Walkers can get through the Wall. Then she arrives in a Winterfell that doesn't accept her and treats her like vermin. But they're part of her kingdom, even if they don't want to be, and the more important war for the fate of all life is upon them, so she sets that aside and helps fight the dead. Dany loses a huge chunk of her army and is nearly killed. While Tyrion and Sansa are cowering in the crypts, Dany fights the dead herself, even picking up a sword and fighting them head-on when all hope seems lost. Ultimately, it turns out her help wasn't even really needed, since Arya's magic knife powers end the threat instantly. But when the battle is won, nobody thanks her. Nobody appreciates her help. She learns that Jon is apparently the real heir to the throne, although he can't prove it, and that his ungrateful sisters are trying to undermine her even after she risked everything for them.

This is where the story of Daenerys Targaryen ends, because the character that appears in the final three episodes is not her. She is a character who is warped and twisted into some hateful, psychotic, evil mass murderer because of a few unjustified betrayals, a few deaths, and some obscenely bad writing and plotholes so big they'd cause the entire planet to collapse on itself. And after everything she's been through, everything she's fought, everything she's beaten, and everyone she's inspired, it all ends in complete chaos and destruction and death. Her story ends with her and her people accomplishing absolutely nothing. Unlike Ned and Robb Stark, whose causes live on in their family, Dany has no one to pick up her torch. There was no point to any of it. She's dead, and she dies a terrible villain. No throne. No acceptance. No friends. No dragons. No love. No house with a red door. No family. Apparently, if you are ambitious and seek to change the world, you are a fool -- worse, a psychopath and a monster, one who deserves to have everything stripped away from you before your untimely death.

ASOIAF is not supposed to be a story of power fantasies coming true. A storybook ending where Dany takes the throne and everybody cheers would ring hollow for a lot of people. But there are so many other satisfying ways to end her story beyond turning her into a genocidal monster, Hitler on a dragon, her army of people of color marching in the streets like a Nuremburg rally while she screams about conquering the world. Tyrion, in a hilariously stupid meta scene, decides to don his Dril hat and explain to the audience that there's actually zero difference between killing good & bad people, you imbecile, you fucking moron. We were the baddies, apparently, us audience members who felt that killing slavers and rapists was a morally good thing in a cruel and violent and lawless world. In her final scene, Dany attempts to explain to Jon that she knows what is good and what is bad and will try to bring this goodness to other people around the world. Aha, the show tells you, just like every other dictator! She thinks she's knows what's right and wrong!

But I reject this cheap, high school philosophy attempt at moral relativism. I do know what is right and what is wrong. Slavery is wrong. Rape is wrong. Murder of innocent people is wrong. Subjugating women is wrong. And for 69 episodes, Dany's view of what was right and wrong was a true one. Yes, an absolute monarchy ruled by birthright is wrong too, but Westeros completely lacks any legal, moral, or philosophical framework for democracy to work at the moment, so a benevolent monarch is the best they can hope for right now. Perhaps an ending where Dany understood that would be a better one too. An ending where she realizes her ambition for ruling Westeros might hurt more people than it helps, and so she stands down. Maybe she lets Jon have the throne, or she sacrifices herself to defeat the army of the dead (read this very good theory to learn why this might be the case in the books). The idea that Dany is actually some insane tyrant who is and has always been evil is sexist garbage that overlooks the moral complexity of Dany and every other hero in ASOIAF. The idea that she is incapable of escaping her family's history, and is somehow just genetically a violent genocidal dictator, is offensive to people with mental illness and incredibly lazy writing.

I don't know to what extent this story resembles the one that is yet to be told in the books, or may never be told. Frankly, I no longer care. I invested years of my life into this character and this story and this franchise -- as did millions of others -- and this was our reward. To be told that the person we admired, appreciated, and loved wasn't a hero or a liberator or even a good person, but an evil, violent, witch that has to be put down like a rabid dog. Apparently my understanding of the five books I read and 69 episodes I watched up to that point was wrong, as was the understanding of many others. We, apparently, completely and utterly misread the text and the character. We were fools, and we got played like fools.

I just feel empty thinking back on all of it. I feel like an idiot for caring and investing myself into this story and this character. I feel like it was all a huge waste of time and emotion.

I'll end it this way: this is not how I choose to remember this series, or this character. I choose to remember her as someone who was kind, who helped others, who looked out for the downtrodden. I choose to remember her as a liberator, just ruler, and protector of women and children. Someone who was inspiring and gave hope to people in a world wracked by violence and horror -- a world not unlike our own. To Emilia Clarke, thank you for bringing this character to life and making her into an icon around the world. To Ramin Djawadi, thank you for the cool, badass themes that you gave her and her dragons across the series. And to Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, and Mother of Dragons, thank you for being my favorite character of this series and for being an inspiration to everyone who wants to leave the world a slightly better place than they found it.

Missandei said:
She's not our queen because she's the daughter of some king we never knew. She's the queen we chose.

Emilia Clarke said:
I wanted to show her as we saw her in the beginning: young, naïve, childlike, open, and full of love and hope. I wanted so much for that to be the last memory of her.
Source

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Dysun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,991
Miami
Her rushed turn to madness and villainy will be the worst thing the show ever did. There was a way to get there and they completely failed at doing it
 

JasonV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,969
Great post.

They butchered her character.

Excellent points about her wider relevance in pop culture.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Not even getting an explanation for what she did makes it all so much worse.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,684
Let me just whip out my crystal ball:
  • lmao you're butthurt your fave didn't win
  • this is grrm's ending too! (ignoring that if it is, well, grrm is also a fucking clown and fuck him)
  • iT's NoT SeXiSt jUsT bEcAuSe YoU dOn'T LikE iT
  • something looking to be outraged something something pc police
  • misgendering
  • avatar shaming
 

Vyrak

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
663
I don't know, people acting like this was some big character turn doesn't make any sense to me. From the very first season her nature was made pretty clear.
 

RJeddy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
726
I liked her heel turn. When you've convinced yourself that you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and you have dragons that are essentially living nukes, the power is going to go to your head eventually.
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,553
Here's a great article on the difference between GRRM's storytelling and D&D's: https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

That tension between internal stories and desires, psychology and external pressures, institutions, norms and events was exactly what Game of Thrones showed us for many of its characters, creating rich tapestries of psychology but also behavior that was neither saintly nor fully evil at any one point. It was something more than that: you could understand why even the characters undertaking evil acts were doing what they did, how their good intentions got subverted, and how incentives structured behavior. The complexity made it much richer than a simplistic morality tale, where unadulterated good fights with evil.
 

Sweeney Swift

User Requested Ban
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Oct 25, 2017
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#IStandWithTaylor
BDS Fantastic OP as always. Seeing your posts has been the real MVP not just of this season but throughout this series, and whatever happens next I hope that effort, that passion, and that quality stick around
 

Machine Law

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,178
I'm glad I never rooted for Daenerys. I was always wanting to move on to another storyline when they started showing what she was up to in Essos, so I'm actually very satisfied with the ending.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,830
The way I chose to read the character is that she once was benevolent, full of love, and of course, a little naive. I don't subscribe to the "mad Targaryens will be mad" notion, but rather, her chase for power in the name of good eventually got out of hand. That Drogon destroys the Iron Throne could be interpreted as retaliating to what power has done to his mother.
 

BarrBarr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
739
I wish both season 7 and 8 were full length seasons. Season 7 should've ended with the death of the Night King, which would've left this season with enough time to have a proper heel turn for Danny. This show was hurt so much because of these two truncated seasons.
 

Shoe

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
4,226
I'm guessing that this is one of the endgame plot points that GRRM told them, and D&D really fumbled it getting from Point A to Point B, mainly due to them insisting on the ending being so few episodes.
 

RockTiddies

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
551
in essence, she got a little too used to the "burn my enemies alive" tactic and saw the adoration and cheers as justification with the means for the end. And it was.

Fucking Star Wars made the transition a rough and uneven one.
 

cwmartin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,796
This is why you watch the show to see what happens, not to cheer on your favorite like your watching a basketball game. This wasn't your story to tell, you just get to experience it.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
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Jan 24, 2019
10,774
Not even getting an explanation for what she did makes it all so much worse.


we got the explanation.

GeNeTiCs

OP did you read this?
https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/19/game-thrones-finale-interview-emilia-clarke/


"I have my own feelings [about the storyline] and it's peppered with my feelings about myself," she admits. "It's gotten to that point now where you read [comments about] the character you [have to remind yourself], 'They're not talking about you, Emilia, they're talking about the character."

"You go on set and play a badass and you walk through fire and that became the thing that saved me from considering my own mortality," she wrote. Clarke has drawn strength from Daenerys and infused Daenerys with her strength.

"I genuinely did this, and it's embarrassing and I'm going to admit it to you," Clarke says. "I called my mom and—" Clarke shifts into a tearful voice to perform the conversation as she reenacts the call: "I read the scripts and I don't want to tell you what happens but can you just talk me off this ledge? It really messed me up.' And then I asked my mom and brother really weird questions. They were like: 'What are you asking us this for? What do you mean do I think Daenerys is a good person? Why are you asking us that question? Why do you care what people think of Daenerys? Are you okay?'" "And I'm all: 'I'm fine! … But is there anything Daenerys could do that would make you hate her?'"

"Your character makes a choice and you need to be right with that. An actor should never be afraid to look ugly. We have uglier sides to ourselves. And after 10 years of working on this show, it's logical. Where else can she go? I tried to think what the ending will be. It's not like she's suddenly going to go, 'Okay, I'm gonna put a kettle on and put cookies in the oven and we'll just sit down and have a lovely time and pop a few kids out.' That was never going to happen. She's a Targaryen."

"I thought she was going to die," she continues. "I feel very taken care of as a character in that sense. It's a very beautiful and touching ending. Hopefully, what you'll see in that last moment as she's dying is: There's the vulnerability — there's the little girl you met in season 1. See? She's right there. And now, she's not there anymore…"
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,512
I don't think you're an idiot for rooting for Dany, it's clear we're supposed to. Tyrion even says this in the finale.

I do think it's a mistake to flatten the purpose of her character into a moral about misogyny and gender as I think her character has a lot more to it than that.
 

Deleted member 12224

user requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
6,113
Developing this level of emotional attachment and investment to fictional characters (and, to be fair, this is approximately 1/100th of the Luke Skywalker attachment) is baffling to me.
This is why you watch the show to see what happens, not to cheer on your favorite like your watching a basketball game. This wasn't your story to tell, you just get to experience it.
Yeah, this too. Wild.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,371
This is why you watch the show to see what happens, not to cheer on your favorite like your watching a basketball game. This wasn't your story to tell, you just get to experience it.

Part of experiencing it is having an opinion on it. The OP has laid out a coherent critique, if you want to engage with that critique go for it.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 25, 2017
13,724
Reading the books i felt she was going down the path of madness, but the show botched the journey so badly they destroyed a great character.

D and D are have the subtly of a sledgehammer
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,321
As a book reader for all these years, I was a Dany fan well (male), my feeling is that GRRM was going to take the same direction regardless. I think GRRM and D/D hashed out the major plotlines in workshops, it's a matter of fleshing out the details and creating those impacts where the TV show failed. It just makes sense, the books also didn't really give you complete satisfaction in any way, essentially all the fantasy tropes are twisted in the grimmest way possible. It's just told really well.

At the end I'd say don't take any of this too seriously, it's entertainment. And if you have not, give Joe Abercrombie's The First Law books a try, he does a better job at the same thing IMO. And it has a satisfactory ending.
 

Voytek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,911
I do feel bad for Dany fans. Personally I've never liked her in the books or the show but it was still sorta sad to see her go out like that.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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Oct 29, 2017
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Dany served as an inspiration to many young people who looked at the world we live in today and saw that it needed to be changed -- radically.

What radical change did you expect her to enact?

She thought she was the rightful ruler of a system that had existed before her and one which she would enforce moving forward. She felt that she, by birth, was owed ownership of the seven kingdoms.

Her motivations were no different than Cersei and her organization of government and rule would have been the same.

At no point in time was her "break the wheel" speech entailing abolishing the system. She only sought to preserve it with herself as its figurehead.
 

Sephzilla

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Oct 25, 2017
17,493
I don't feel bad for Dany fans. Dany always had those red flags following her from the very start, ya'll just didn't want to see it.

The rushed pace of these last two seasons is the big problem, though

What radical change did you expect her to enact?

She thought she was the rightful ruler of a system that had existed before her and one which she would enforce moving forward. She felt that she, by birth, was owed ownership of the seven kingdoms.

Her motivations were no different than Cersei and her organization of government and rule would have been the same.

At no point in time was her "break the wheel" speech entailing abolishing the system. She only sought to preserve it with herself as its figurehead.

Yup, Dany had no true intention of breaking the wheel. She was the wheel.
 

Figgles

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,568
The lesson to be learned here, is the same lesson to be learned about real people... don't put them on a pedestal. You become blind to their faults, and in the end you'll will just be disappointed when you realize what they really are.
 

Kalentan

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Oct 25, 2017
45,498
Ultimately even if this had been better written and given more time, Dany was always going to down this path. It was the natural end point. Poorly told or not.
 

Persephone

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Oct 25, 2017
4,684
Just gonna take this opportunity to say that Era has never been as progressive as it pats itself on the back for, but the reaction of men towards women criticising the sexism of this show (and specifically this season/episode) is fucking disgusting and embarrassing even by this place's standards.
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,082
I'm not opposed to the final endgame of Dany ultimately being mad and burning the city.

What I am opposed to is the ass-pull of the context of it happening, it just feels like they wanted her to end up at that point but never made her character conflicted enough and just decided to go HAM at the end, it didn't feel earned. It wasn't justified. If the show portrayed her as being vulnerable to the madness, or showed a long internal conflict sure. But no they spend the entire time building her as a protagonist overcoming difficulties and having character progression.

She made some brutal decisions previous but they always seemed either difficult or necessary and they were few and far between and they always seemed for the greater good. Then she escalates to basically genocide.

It went far beyond even "in her mind she is doing the right thing" to full blown fascist conqueror.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
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Oct 27, 2017
15,682
You're OP is right on the money. I hate when people on about "Mad Queen foreshadowing " when she's lowkey done the most "good" out of every single person in the series (before episode 5). She's a way bigger hero than Jon Snow ever fucking was
 

Doober

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
4,295
Yeah, I think you may have had a bit too lofty of an attachment to her.

She talked big (esp. on the show, less so in the books) about smashing the system and being a revolutionary, but she also felt she was owed the kingdom by birthright and did not seem to have any intentions of not restarting the Targaryen dynasty.

And since historically only maybe a third of the Targaryen kings weren't wacky assholes to some degree or another, that wouldn't bode well for any revolutionary changes to the system enduring.

I absolutely agree that the show butchered her character, however.
 

Deleted member 4346

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Oct 25, 2017
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A lot of this could have been avoided with an actual character arc for Daenerys over the course of the last season, making it more believable and organic as to why she was unhinged. I do agree with much of the OP's link and post. In the end they kind of make Daenerys useless. "Victims can be evil shits too" was a niche that Cersei already occupied nicely. So they made Dany a second, more self-righteous Cersei? Bleh.
 

Landford

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Oct 25, 2017
4,678
Star Wars killed GoT and salted the franchise to the ground. So sad.
 

Hollywood Duo

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Oct 25, 2017
43,283
I actually loved her ending in the finale...she really thought she was doing the right thing and believed it 100% in a calm rational way. She every tried to convince her love one last time and he betrayed her. Tragic and heroic.
 

Haloid1177

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Oct 25, 2017
4,550
The endgame for Dany was always this, it just needed more time for people to see and accept who she was going to be, instead of morphing into that person in like half an hour.
 

Book One

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Oct 25, 2017
4,884
I'm really really curious about how Martin - assuming this is what he told them his plan was - will get from point A to point B. Because essentially everything that stands in conflict with her turn still applies. Going to suck if we never get to see it and get stuck only with the rush job.

And I suppose the judgement of how 'good' Dany is comes down to how a person feels about the idea that everyone one judges as 'bad' needs to be put to death in the worst ways possible.

It's still an interesting character that is flawed in the way the story posits Dany to be. There's a whole lot of things about power and corruption, steadfast belief in your own righteousness, and how you wield those things in the face of continuous trauma that would be fascinating to flesh out in a way that actually took the time to do it.
 

Proven

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,841
Dany showed red flags throughout the entire show. It was always going to be her way or the highway. It worked when she was breaking chains and only burning slaveowners, but when she started to burn innocent people and people on her side turned on her, that's spelled her downfall. The books will follow the same path but the show just didn't do a good enough job explaining how we got there.
 

Deleted member 5666

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It was clear to me from season 1 she was going to go bad. The issue was how they rushed it in season 8 not that she went mad queen I think.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,166
You are supposed to root for her, but they also wanted to pull the rug out from under your feet towards the end with the whole "messiah complex is bad". Her character turn in itself isnt awful, but the rushed manner in which they did it was.

Sorry it wasnt what you wanted to be but they foreshadowed this turn several times.