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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,891
I wanted to make a thread about it because it blows my mind that EA was so full of scorn that they pushed both talented japanese designers to bankrupt themselves creatively. Shinji Mikami & Suda51 had teamed up again to make another game after Killer7. They apparently were in really good terms and one could say Suda became Mikami's protégé. He had given him full creative control for Killer7, and Mikami accepted being the executive producer for Shadows of the Damned, which was being published by EA. Except it turned out bad for both of them, and they had lost several years of their lives on a project EA was quick to put their hands on.

Some points are taken straight from wikipedia and other websites, other are my findings:
  • The game went through five drafts before being accepted by the suits at EA, each making significant changes to the story
  • Some of the story drafts were shot down by EA before Suda had even managed to tell the suits the introduction of his stories.
  • Grasshopper was pressured by EA to have Garcia start with a gun because, "westerners are about guns."
  • EA informed Grasshopper that, "there's this thing called an elevator pitch in America, and if you can't tell your story in the length of an elevator ride, Hollywood won't use it."
  • This forced Suda to completely scrap all of his initial ideas and had Johnson the talking Skull replaced Paula, and make the game a fairy tale like Lupin III's The Castle of Cagliostro or Princess Peach and Mario.
  • Without Mikami there to shield him, EA would have probably pushed for more things to be cut
______

A few choice quotes:

From Suda51:

"Shadows Of The Damned was going to be a very different game than the one that came out," he laments. "That game went through about five different versions, as we got closer to a game that EAP could accept. For example, originally when Garcia [Hotspur] took out his gun and looked through the laser sight, it was ringed with flowers. And then around the circle of flowers were little leaping bunnies. It was very cute, but the EAP team was like, 'What on Earth is this?' Those meetings felt like court interrogations."

They[EA] told us that 'westerners are about guns, so give him a gun', and the direction of the project turned 180 degrees. EA is a really macho company, and we argued with them as we developed it. Their demands were really strong. We ended up drafting the scenario five times before it was completed. In the end, each was so unique that it felt like I had basically written five different games.

In the very final(fifth) draft, it turned into a love story. EA informed us, "There's this thing called an 'elevator draft', and if you can't tell your story in the length of an elevator ride, Hollywood won't use it." All their stories fall into one of four categories.

From Shinji Mikami:

"[Shadows of The Damned] became a completely different game. That was a bit disappointing. I think Suda was unable to create the scenario he'd originally had in his head, and he rewrote the scenario several times. I think his heart was broken. He's such a unique creator, so it seems to me that he was not quite comfortable with making this game."

"I think [Suda] suffered quite a bit [because of the project]. It was very tiring and awful. Before Shadowd of the Damned, Grasshopper was only a company of 30 or 40 people, but it became 120 overnight ! The back and forth with EA and the press worldwide meant that he had to spend most of his time outside of his office in Tokyo. He wasn't able to concentrate as much as he wanted on the creative side of the project. Until that point, he was really involved and offering ideas. But now, with all the meetings with the publisher, he felt he was restrained and couldn't express himself anymore. So I think it was difficult for him."

Incredible to me that EA had wasted the time and creative talent of two legendary Japanese designers, talk back to them about how a video game should be made according to Hollywood's ways and force them to make the game they didn't want to make. Apparently Grasshopper had made big changes to make this game, they had hired 70 more people and they even had to change location. It's a miracle that Grasshopper Manufacture has had managed to stay afloat after this. I never expected the history of the development of Shadow of the Damned to be so eye-popping.
 

Molto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,022
Wow. Just another reason to hate EA. I thought the final game was still great but I wonder how much better it would've been if they hadn't messed with it.
 

CO_Andy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,529
American McGee similarly had problems with EA around the same time with Alice: Madness Returns. Make it more edgy they said. He quickly changed their tune by showing off a penis monster.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
This is what EA does. They are the safest, most creatively bankrupt gaming company out there and all they do is chase trends someone else established by taking their own risks. They're a pathetic company.
 

Wolfgunblood

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,748
The Land
CHkhh9dWgAAvK5P.png
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,139
I'm very fond of Mikami & Suda51's work, but I'm not exactly sure what they expected from EA.

None of this stuff is particularly surprising. If they wanted full creative freedom, they probably should have found alternate funding.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
And yet, even with all of these sufferings, they still managed to create one of the best titles of the 360/PS3 era. The ending sequence still resonates with me.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Maybe this is because I'm not a producer, but if I was working with the team of shinji and suda I would let them make whatever they wanted to make

I'm still not over FUSE, maybe it was mostly Insomniac, but you can't tell me it would have turned out like that under a different publisher
 

Vorador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
463
In retrospective the title of the game seems fitting for what happened.

Wonder if what EA truly wanted is their tried and true "make them bankrupt, then scoop them up for a pittance" strategy. Shadows of the Damned flopped hard.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,839
I still don't know why you'd get Suda and Mikami to do a game together only to strip out everything that makes their games so notable to begin with, unless you just wanted their name for the nerd points and all you really liked about No More Heroes was "whoah punk rock aesthetic" while everything else that was profound about it flew over your head.
 

ultracal31

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,622
I got confused with EA at times when I worked there.

They could afford a few risky IP ventures twice a year seeing how FIFA and Ultimate team makes them quite a bit of money
 

Dynamite Cop

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,002
California
No mention of Massimo Guarini in the OP? He was a creative director on the game. He seems to be doing well, but then again, he bailed out of Japan.
 

Bosh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,226
The paring is just really weird at the wrong time.

I love Suda51 games but it would be hard to argue Grasshopper games are targeted at mainstream audience (Especially when this was developed in late 2000's)

On the flip side

EA is a huge corporation that has to sell to a big audience. The focus group is much broader so for the most part they can't go down those niche routes, target market NA (This was before EA Originals). EA wasn't really setup to accommodate someone with as focused path of a game like Suda51's then and the result didn't sound great overall (Skipped over this one myself). I would be curious how it would of been made now as an EA Original which seems better at accommodating more niche markets.


My secret hope is we get a localized, re-made/remastered version of Flower, Sun & Rain. I have only played the DS version and loved it, but would love to experience the PS2 or even prettier version of the game.
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,060
I really enjoyed Shadows still, despite the changes made. Mikami and Suda did good in the face of adversity.
 

DaveLong

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,199
American McGee similarly had problems with EA around the same time with Alice: Madness Returns. Make it more edgy they said. He quickly changed their tune by showing off a penis monster.
This is awesome. McGee's games never did much for me, but this is just the best way to stick a finger in the eye of people who don't get it.

I also didn't know any of this about Shadows of the Damned other than development was troubled. I need to play this regardless, though. Great thread.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
The game wound up being great, so I'd be curious as to what the original idea was. Sounds completely different, so why not make that game under a different publisher?
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I don't really care for Suda51's games at all but why on earth would EA hire him and then expect something that could be concisely explained in an elevator pitch? Did they even play his games beforehand? And on the flip side, did Suda not look at their typical output and realize the disconnect? Granted, the latter is more justified in taking the job considering it probably paid well, but it still seems like the most bizarre collab.

Also I didn't even know EA published Shadows of the Damned, I guess that goes to show how well they marketed it.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
The paring is just really weird at the wrong time.

I love Suda51 games but it would be hard to argue Grasshopper games are targeted at mainstream audience (Especially when this was developed in late 2000's)

On the flip side

EA is a huge corporation that has to sell to a big audience. The focus group is much broader so for the most part they can't go down those niche routes, target market NA (This was before EA Originals). EA wasn't really setup to accommodate someone with as focused path of a game like Suda51's then and the result didn't sound great overall (Skipped over this one myself). I would be curious how it would of been made now as an EA Original which seems better at accommodating more niche markets.


My secret hope is we get a localized, re-made/remastered version of Flower, Sun & Rain. I have only played the DS version and loved it, but would love to experience the PS2 or even prettier version of the game.

You're right in what you said. And If EA originals existed at the time, I'm sure the history would be very different considering how Fe, A Way Out and Sea Of Solitude happened and how the model works.
 

G_Shumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,184
Cleveland, OH
The biggest thing that EA should've done for Shadows of the Damned was market it. There was almost no advertising for it whatsoever. From a company like EA this is inexcusable.
 

Deleted member 12352

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,203
EA poisons whatever they touch.

Kudos to Mikami and Suda for getting an actually decent game made under such pathetic management though.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
Can't really blame EA here because Shadows of the Damned turned out as one of the best games of last gen. I absolutely loved it and I think it's Suda's best game yet.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,675
Jeeze that sounds brutal. EA seems to be a shit show creatively. Only positive thing I ever hear about them seems to be that they pay and treat their emloyees well for the most part. From what I've gathered it looks like the suits ruin everything. Focus test bullshit.
 

Curufinwe

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,924
DE
I'm very fond of Mikami & Suda51's work, but I'm not exactly sure what they expected from EA.

None of this stuff is particularly surprising. If they wanted full creative freedom, they probably should have found alternate funding.

Yeah. Sometimes you taste the big boner, and sometimes the big boner tastes you.
 

boxfactory

Member
Oct 27, 2017
204
And EA execs wonder why their single player games don't make money. They use hollywood pitches and hollywood producer method of ruining games by meddling with creatives dictating to them how to make their own game.
 

Etain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,800
I wonder if it's kind of like the left hand doesn't know the right hand is doing? Because... why else would you get someone like Suda51 otherwise? I could see someone who likes his work getting a deal for him with EA, but Suda has to report to someone else who just wants a wacky game done by him but wants it fitting safe expectations.

Or they saw No More Heroes and wanted something like that, whatever.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Never knew about the history behind it. Damn shame.