Oct 27, 2017
9,489
Next console, a portable Xbox using ARM. You will be able to hard dock to a GPU. The console will have the option to boot to Xbox menu and game system or you can boot to a Windows system. Since they are in the same hardware windows and Xbox, the Xbox games will generally run a bit better in scenarios where they push the hardware, Windows games will just do the best the can with pc settings.

It gives you a portable option, a faster gpu option, and the ability to play games in windows game store or Steam or whatever. It ties MS and the uses closer to PC and console game pass. But is a jack of all trades system.
 
Jul 1, 2020
7,168
People suspect that this is the actual purpose of Microsoft's previously announced "preservation team" or whatever it's called -- to start work on some kind of Xbox-to-PC translation layer to ensure everybody's library carries over. If they actually pulled it off it would be a smart way to try to get the Xbox fanbase to move over to PC, not to mention Microsoft's PC storefront.
Would be great to have a universal emulator that works with regular games in addition to the one that is game specific so they can add enhancements.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,260
I mean if the next Xbox is a Windows PC with an Xbox shell then every software you can install on Windows would essentially "be on the next Xbox".
 

BasilZero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,842
Omni
I'll be down for it as long as I can play my games b/c

As for valve + Microsoft - a partnership sure but a buy out, no thanks lol
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,560
if 8th gen went better for xbox they maaaybe could get away with a form factor PC trojan horse "console" that launches you into the app with easy options to switch to steam (alongside EGS, GOG, ubi, ect if you so desire) and you can take it further with Windows. but like another poster said the more you think about that strategy the less it makes sense, if they'd need to sell tens of millions of the things
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,320
Yeah, often it's not clear if he's being serious or not, lol

EDIT:
He was serious:


View: https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/1793390706662228429?t=vNGNFHVeBbNAQEBG7Lj1fQ&s=19


Other thread closed so I'll leave my comment on this here

Only two ways I think this could happen.
- Verbatim Steam platform app, without exclusions of store, community, content delivery chain etc. ie just another PC, needing you to transition out of the xbox store environment to desktop
- Restricted Steam Link app to download, stream Steam platform functionality except the store.

In both cases, no change in revenue for Valve, and no detriment to Steam platform's ability to function.

I wouldn't trust Jez at all though. In the thread there, he doesn't seem to understand the basics, like why GMG exists and has a "cut" of its own. Steam keys generate 0% cut for Valve, so pubs/devs cut whatever agreements they want with GMG or other 3rd parties, which is how they do their business. That's not a rationale for Steam to arbitrarily accept a cut of their revenue going to MS. It would make no sense.
The only place that happens is mobile where they don't get the choice right now (though that changes in EU and I wouldn't be surprised to see Valve do something on that side eventually).
 

rzks21

Member
Aug 17, 2023
2,292
Other thread closed so I'll leave my comment on this here

Only two ways I think this could happen.
- Verbatim Steam platform app, without exclusions of store, community, content delivery chain etc. ie just another PC, needing you to transition out of the xbox store environment to desktop
- Restricted Steam Link app to download, stream Steam platform functionality except the store.

In both cases, no change in revenue for Valve, and no detriment to Steam platform's ability to function.

I wouldn't trust Jez at all though. In the thread there, he doesn't seem to understand the basics, like why GMG exists and has a "cut" of its own. Steam keys generate 0% cut for Valve, so pubs/devs cut whatever agreements they want with GMG or other 3rd parties, which is how they do their business. That's not a rationale for Steam to arbitrarily accept a cut of their revenue going to MS. It would make no sense.
The only place that happens is mobile where they don't get the choice right now (though that changes in EU and I wouldn't be surprised to see Valve do something on that side eventually).

Wait does Apple get a cut from stuff bought from the Steam iOS app or is this more like a general statement?
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,320
Wait does Apple get a cut from stuff bought from the Steam iOS app or is this more like a general statement?

Apple takes 30% cut of all app sales and in-app purchases. Only if a developer is below $1 million revenue per year, Apple take 15%. Only way to avoid is to be a free app / don't sell via the app. After Epic case, the option to redirect to web is now possible.
Apple did have special deals with the largest entities that either didn't have the same terms as other devs or allowed for them to ignore certain terms. These were mostly the big competitors - Netflix, Amazon, Google.
 

THRILLHO

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,145
Next console, a portable Xbox using ARM. You will be able to hard dock to a GPU. The console will have the option to boot to Xbox menu and game system or you can boot to a Windows system. Since they are in the same hardware windows and Xbox, the Xbox games will generally run a bit better in scenarios where they push the hardware, Windows games will just do the best the can with pc settings.

It gives you a portable option, a faster gpu option, and the ability to play games in windows game store or Steam or whatever. It ties MS and the uses closer to PC and console game pass. But is a jack of all trades system.
In the mass market, this would sell terribly.
 

arts&crafts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,246
Toronto
Apple takes 30% cut of all app sales and in-app purchases. Only if a developer is below $1 million revenue per year, Apple take 15%. Only way to avoid is to be a free app / don't sell via the app. After Epic case, the option to redirect to web is now possible.
Apple did have special deals with the largest entities that either didn't have the same terms as other devs or allowed for them to ignore certain terms. These were mostly the big competitors - Netflix, Amazon, Google.
but you are using the Steam iOS app to buy pc games, so they don't take any money I assume. It would be the same as just logging into Steam in safari. I think that's what they were asking.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,320
but you are using the Steam OS app to buy pc games, so they don't take any money I assume. It would be the same as just logging into Steam in safari. I think that's what they were asking.

Ah maybe so if it is web based and does all the processing itself. I recall the Steam Store itself is blocked when streaming too
 

DanDanderson

Member
May 7, 2024
55
I very much disagree with a lot of the arguments against this.

1. The console would be too expensive.
This article from 2020 does a nice job of summarizing how much a comparable PC would have cost at that time. To no surprise, building a PC equivalent to a console is more expensive.

But wait! Console manufacturers sell consoles at a loss. Well, sure, Xbox has sold consoles at a $100 -$200 loss, from what we know of this generation. Sony didn't really sell the disc-variant PS5 at a loss (at least for very long), and only taking an unknown but presumably small loss on the digital variant.

However, in a hybrid-PC scenario, let's assume MS wants to break even. Alright, they're still capable of delivering a $700 console that performs like a PC that would cost you $1400 to build yourself. They sell millions of units, so they can strike deals with manufactuers, have custom parts developed, etc, etc, on a scale few can.

2. You're alienating console gamers.
Console gamers have various reasons why they like consoles. Ease-of-use, convenience, ecosystem, etc. A hybrid-PC Xbox can still deliver on all those fronts. A custom console-like UI is a huge component in maintaining that experience. Having games "optimized" for Xbox, therefore eliminating the need to play with settings, is another. Ensuring backwards compatibility with previous gens is incredibly important, but it's something Xbox has already called out as a priority for their next-gen offering.

I'm not sure where console gamers are being alienated when they can have nearly everything they already have today, with the added benefit of tapping into the PC ecosystem to play games they've never been able to play before.

3. Microsoft wouldn't make any money.
Xbox is now a major publisher. The more people they can get playing their games, the better. They still make money selling their games, even if it's not from their storefront.

However, there are still many that are invested in the Xbox ecosystem (people who currently own Xbox consoles) and, just like those of you who wouldn't dream of using a different storefront other than Steam, many of those console gamers would continue to purchase their games on Xbox's storefront. Only now they can purchase a whole other assortment of PC titles they've never had access to. It's on Microsoft to make their storefront as appealing as possible to keep gamers there while attracting new customers.

And then, my friends, Game Pass still does exist. Yes, indications show stagnation, but it's clear Xbox is looking for solutions for growth. But it is still, to our knowledge, a profitable endeavour, and commiting to CoD day 1 shows there is still a will to grow it further.

Lastly, there is no saying what partnerships may be formed between existing storefronts and Xbox. I would imagine Steam or EGS would not be interested in something like Apple's approach to supporting other App Stores, and Microsoft would be very hypocritical to attempt anything similar, but that's not to say something more palletable couldn't be arranged.

4. PC gamers won't be interested in such a product.
I don't necessarily disagree completely, I think this product would still primarily be aimed at the console market. But there are plenty of folks out there that can't afford a $1500+ gaming PC. Offering a console that offers a huge bang for your buck, which Xbox can still very much so do with a hybrid-PC console without selling at a loss, is a compelling argument.

To summarize, while I understand where many of these arguments are coming from, I don't think making a hybrid-PC console with mass appeal is an insurmountable feat. It will be on Xbox to deliver on all these fronts, but I think there are clear paths on how to do so, and I think it alligns well with their overall strategy. It's a huge risk, of course, but I think that's just the place where Xbox is at right now. They need to be creative and try something different.
 
Last edited:

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
On the whole "how would Microsoft make money?" question, I think everyone would have to accept that this strategy would be a total abandonment of the traditional razor-and-blade model. Microsoft would effectively be trying to move its entire console user base over to Windows. Windows would be the product that they're selling.

The theory is that the company's strategy for migrating Xbox fans would be to 1) somehow bring Xbox backward compatibility to PC, 2) create a UI that does for Windows what SteamOS did for Linux, and 3) institute some kind of game verification system to ensure users don't have to screw around with graphics settings if they don't want to. They'd be trying to bring console users to PC by consolizing the PC to a certain extent, which the Steam Deck already proved is kinda possible.

Any physical "Xbox" they sell under this model would pretty much be just like the Surface -- a flagship reference model that wouldn't necessarily have to take up a majority of hardware sales. They wouldn't need to interest PC gamers if this "Xbox UI" presumably comes to every Windows installation. PC gamers would already be on the same platform, just on other form factors.
 

PixelatedDonut

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
Philly ❤️
Sure, Xbox might be able to keep costs down, but let's be real, this thing won't be cheap. Most people who buy consoles are looking for a good deal, and this hybrid might just be out of their price range. Plus, PC parts change so fast, this console could feel outdated super quick, unlike regular consoles that last longer. I've heard some people say things like Xbox has 30 million dedicated fans who probably wouldn't leave the service, but I can totally see them losing even more people to trying to sell a device that I would expect to at least be 800. And you're definitely not going to have no largest generational leap while also trying to build a PC without it being expensive.

Why would anyone even buy games from there store when you can just get them cheaper on key sites and have better support on places like steam. And the whole problem of how some PC gamers run. It seemed like before Microsoft was in this position where they had to shift their whole business plan. A lot of console gamers complained about a lot of things that go on on PC. I guess now that the business might be moving towards multi-platform, people are somewhat trying to cope with the inevitability.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
Plus, PC parts change so fast, this console could feel outdated super quick, unlike regular consoles that last longer.
It's all about what developers optimize toward. Microsoft would likely introduce some kind of verification system to encourage PC game developers to optimize toward its specific box so nobody really has to mess with graphics settings.

If performance starts degrading over time compared to PlayStation and there's only one "Xbox PC," that could be a problem, but there's the chance that Microsoft's console just serves as a reference model and OEMs start putting out similar boxes running the same console-like version of Windows. If they did that, they'd probably continually release increasingly powerful models, like what you see now with constant revisions to PC handhelds like the ROG Ally, Ayaneo consoles, and the GPD Win. Getting an "Xbox" would probably end up feeling like getting an Android phone.

Android gamers are already fine with that environment. It's also dependent on what each gamer wants. A ton of console users now are still on last gen because those consoles run Fortnite and Roblox just fine and that's all they care about. The PC equivalent is people who only play League or The Sims on relatively low-end systems because that's all they care about. A lot of people are probably just fine with how their cheap Android phone runs COD Mobile or something. If anything, a wide range of price variation would emerge if handheld PCs become part of the equation.

Another possibility to think about is the prospect of dedicated GPUs emerging that could slot right into these consoles. The OEMs currently making handheld PCs are the same folks selling AMD and Nvidia GPUs. If they also switched to making third-party Xboxes that just run an adjusted version of Windows that attracts the console base, I could imagine them also selling GPUs in new form factors designed to be as plug-and-play as possible to try to grab that new audience. Maybe they wouldn't be the full-size GPUs you mostly see now, but they could be something like the Mini-ITX models that currently exist. They could probably get the installation process down to a point where it's no more complicated than upgrading the PS5 SSD.
 

TimotheusNL

Member
Jun 9, 2023
960
Is there anything wrong with Microsoft just tapering off the Xbox hardware division and just focusing on making bank as a publisher?

It seems to make so much more business sense to just focus on their current strengths compared to committing to another risky and costly hardware venture when the Xbox brand is currently at an all-time low? I mean, I understand we love to daydream about pie-in-the-sky hardware but I think the real world will be a lot more boring.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,183
So no more physical games, no more games optimised for the hardware, and download games tied to online drms because they are basically pc games? I would not even consider buying that thing (and I own all Xboxes).
 

Roshin

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,862
Sweden
Is there anything wrong with Microsoft just tapering off the Xbox hardware division and just focusing on making bank as a publisher?

No, nothing wrong with that and I think it's what we're seeing. MS has likely been aware of this trend for a time now and I think buying ActiBlizz was part of their overall strategy to transition away from hardware and into publishing. With big titles like CoD, Diablo, etc, they can do that.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,074
Is there anything wrong with Microsoft just tapering off the Xbox hardware division and just focusing on making bank as a publisher?

I can think of a few possible downsides. They would displease the core Xbox audience. They wouldn't have a living-room vehicle for Game Pass. They won't be in a position to capitalize on any mistakes or stumbles the other players in the market might make. They might want to set up Xbox as an example of an open console platform in the hopes of getting regulators to open up other console ecosystems.
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,118
Is there anything wrong with Microsoft just tapering off the Xbox hardware division and just focusing on making bank as a publisher?

It seems to make so much more business sense to just focus on their current strengths compared to committing to another risky and costly hardware venture when the Xbox brand is currently at an all-time low? I mean, I understand we love to daydream about pie-in-the-sky hardware but I think the real world will be a lot more boring.
Yes, an oligopoly becoming a highly differentiated duopoly and thousands of dollars invested in libraries down the drain. That's how we get $130 games.
 
OP
OP
P40L0

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,813
Italy
I very much disagree with a lot of the arguments against this.

1. The console would be too expensive.
This article from 2020 does a nice job of summarizing how much a comparable PC would have cost at that time. To no surprise, building a PC equivalent to a console is more expensive.

But wait! Console manufacturers sell consoles at a loss. Well, sure, Xbox has sold consoles at a $100 -$200 loss, from what we know of this generation. Sony didn't really sell the disc-variant PS5 at a loss (at least for very long), and only taking an unknown but presumably small loss on the digital variant.

However, in a hybrid-PC scenario, let's assume MS wants to break even. Alright, they're still capable of delivering a $700 console that performs like a PC that would cost you $1400 to build yourself. They sell millions of units, so they can strike deals with manufactuers, have custom parts developed, etc, etc, on a scale few can.

2. You're alienating console gamers.
Console gamers have various reasons why they like consoles. Ease-of-use, convenience, ecosystem, etc. A hybrid-PC Xbox can still deliver on all those fronts. A custom console-like UI is a huge component in maintaining that experience. Having games "optimized" for Xbox, therefore eliminating the need to play with settings, is another. Ensuring backwards compatibility with previous gens is incredibly important, but it's something Xbox has already called out as a priority for their next-gen offering.

I'm not sure where console gamers are being alienated when they can have nearly everything they already have today, with the added benefit of tapping into the PC ecosystem to play games they've never been able to play before.

3. Microsoft wouldn't make any money.
Xbox is now a major publisher. The more people they can get playing their games, the better. They still make money selling their games, even if it's not from their storefront.

However, there are still many that are invested in the Xbox ecosystem (people who currently own Xbox consoles) and, just like those of you who wouldn't dream of using a different storefront other than Steam, many of those console gamers would continue to purchase their games on Xbox's storefront. Only now they can purchase a whole other assortment of PC titles they've never had access to. It's on Microsoft to make their storefront as appealing as possible to keep gamers there while attracting new customers.

And then, my friends, Game Pass still does exist. Yes, indications show stagnation, but it's clear Xbox is looking for solutions for growth. But it is still, to our knowledge, a profitable endeavour, and commiting to CoD day 1 shows there is still a will to grow it further.

Lastly, there is no saying what partnerships may be formed between existing storefronts and Xbox. I would imagine Steam or EGS would not be interested in something like Apple's approach to supporting other App Stores, and Microsoft would be very hypocritical to attempt anything similar, but that's not to say something more palletable couldn't be arranged.

4. PC gamers won't be interested in such a product.
I don't necessarily disagree completely, I think this product would still primarily be aimed at the console market. But there are plenty of folks out there that can't afford a $1500+ gaming PC. Offering a console that offers a huge bang for your buck, which Xbox can still very much so do with a hybrid-PC console without selling at a loss, is a compelling argument.

To summarize, while I understand where many of these arguments are coming from, I don't think making a hybrid-PC console with mass appeal is an insurmountable feat. It will be on Xbox to deliver on all these fronts, but I think there are clear paths on how to do so, and I think it alligns well with their overall strategy. It's a huge risk, of course, but I think that's just the place where Xbox is at right now. They need to be creative and try something different.
giphy.gif
 

theCioro

Member
Jun 16, 2023
208
RO
How would pricing for games work? You buy something on Steam/Epic/MS Store/etc., the store gets a cut and you play your game. You buy something on such a hybrid & i dont see how MS will get a cut of sales as with the xbox store. It would mean others need to loose a share of their profits in favor of MS. I dont see that happening. The only advantage this has is to push hardware sales but they need software sales to properly prosper.
 

iswasdoes

Member
Nov 13, 2017
3,115
Londinium
I think it's totally plausible that for future hardware MS will release a PC with a gaming themed windows skin that also runs other gaming clients

Whether this will be marketed as 'the next Xbox' I don't know, but it won't really matter except to fanboys

Having a powerful box that is a storefront for MS content, but also can play e.g PlayStation PC games is certainly attractive for some gamers. And provides the hardware isn't a massive loss leader, it's a good Trojan horse for MS services like gamepass

Launch it with a COD and an Elder Scrolls 6 and could well be a hit
 

TimotheusNL

Member
Jun 9, 2023
960
Yes, an oligopoly becoming a highly differentiated duopoly and thousands of dollars invested in libraries down the drain. That's how we get $130 games.

I think the duopoly argument holds no water. The Xbox is currently not providing meaningful competition to the Playstation/Switch regardless and there are hard limits on what the market will bear in terms of pricing. PC and Nintendo will be providing the exact same competition in the market like they always have.

Digital libraries, sure. But I doubt that Microsoft is shutting down the digital services for their devices anytime soon. But this is always the risk you take by going digital.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
If Microsoft goes this route or a similar route, it's also possible that the first step would be a handheld, which would have some advantages.

It could start out as, effectively, the Surface division's answer to the ROG Ally and the Steam Deck. These handheld PCs are a new sector, and thus a space where a Surface device might try to provide other Windows handheld makers with a reference.

Phil Spencer and them have been talking about these handheld PCs and their UX problems, and they've been trying to improve the Xbox app with those systems in mind. If they released their own model together with a whole new handheld/controller-oriented UI, it could end up making a big statement for the sector. I imagine that UI would come to the other handheld Windows systems and possibly just Windows PCs in general, which would basically start the process of potentially moving "Xbox" over to PC.

If that works well, then they could scale the idea up to an SFF PC that is essentially the new "Xbox."

Part of the reason people think Microsoft is moving in this direction is because the company has been openly questioning the traditional business model where a console is subsidized by game sales and sells itself through exclusives. The console industry currently works through a model that fundamentally resembles how Apple sells the iPhone and iPad, but Microsoft might want to move to a model that feels more like Android.