Pwnz

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Oct 28, 2017
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Unless there are very targeted sanctions on individual people, the only people affected by sanctions to "bleed them dry" are the citizens who are already suffering under Putin.

I apologize for the bleed them dry and vulgur response. I'm really angry about how the US was so close to fascism. I'm not here to defend the US's atrocities.

I said it was beyond me, just my hot take as an angry citizen. My father is dying from pancreatic cancer because the healthcare system is so clogged up by this Russian puppet.
 

KarmaCow

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Oct 25, 2017
9,224
I apologize for the bleed them dry and vulgur response. I'm really angry about how the US was so close to fascism. I'm not here to defend the US's atrocities.

I said it was beyond me, just my hot take as an angry citizen. My father is dying from pancreatic cancer because the healthcare system is so clogged up by this Russian puppet.

I get the anger and looking for a target to blame but ultimately Russia's meddling is ultimately far less impactful than the domestic factors. The US healthcare system was fucked long before 2016 and its failures lies with the elected officials who either do nothing or actively sabotage it for the sake of profit.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
The TPP was horrendous policy and its been bizarre seeing the internet's opinion on it do a complete 180 just because Trump got us out of it. The problem is that Trump provided no alternative to it besides a fucking trade war.

Agreed on the TPP being horrific. I'm relieved Europe finally ditched it.

But all this talk of "Pay" is outdated rhetoric that belongs in the 1950s. The United States should be working with allies to promote democracy, stop imperialsm, improve human rights and stamp out intolerance & inequality. Targetting appropriate businesses & the extreme wealth across all 3 regions will be the means to do this.
 
OP
OP

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I don't think it's possible with any real speed. It would have to be over time with things like the economic alliance Obama planned, and sanctions and/or laws encouraging companies to divest from the country over time.

It is overdue though for how dependent countries have become on China.
Is it any different from the US and how dependent countries are on it?
 

Pwnz

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Oct 28, 2017
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I get it but ultimately, Russia's meddling is ultimately far less impactful than the domestic factors.

Yes, the US has done a massive amount of damage. I get that too. My mind is clouded right now with anger, I just got the news. He's losing weight so fast, he can't get scheduled to even discuss what to eat.

I need to meditate.
 

Deleted member 12224

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Economic, diplomatic, espionage, etc. retaliation against Russia for its actions against the United States between 2015 and today should be swift and strong, otherwise the message is "if you succeed, there's no retribution; if you fail, there's no retribution." We can't create this sort of incentive structure of pursuing virtually risk-free escapades for the Russian state moving forward, or else we're guaranteeing not just continued action, but ever-escalating action. (ed. - typos)
 

Tsuyu

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Oct 25, 2017
4,865
I apologize for the bleed them dry and vulgur response. I'm really angry about how the US was so close to fascism. I'm not here to defend the US's atrocities.

I said it was beyond me, just my hot take as an angry citizen. My father is dying from pancreatic cancer because the healthcare system is so clogged up by this Russian puppet.

I don't agree with any sanctions at all but do take care, I have family members who passed away from cancer so I kinda understand this feeling.
 
OP
OP

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I apologize for the bleed them dry and vulgur response. I'm really angry about how the US was so close to fascism. I'm not here to defend the US's atrocities.

I said it was beyond me, just my hot take as an angry citizen. My father is dying from pancreatic cancer because the healthcare system is so clogged up by this Russian puppet.
It's not Russians who are depriving him of healthcare, it's Americans.
 

Torpedo Vegas

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Oct 27, 2017
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Parts Unknown.
Let the board decide.

oj6r0kmea6g11.png
 

KarmaCow

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Oct 25, 2017
9,224
Yes, the US has done a massive amount of damage. I get that too. My mind is clouded right now with anger, I just got the news. He's losing weight so fast, he can't get scheduled to even discuss what to eat.

I'm sorry about my earlier post I didn't realise you were so raw. I can't imagine what you're going through.
 

Euler007

Member
Jan 10, 2018
5,054
As far as Iran goes, about 1/100th of what the US owes due to the unilateral withdrawal from the JCPOA and subsequent sanctions. The ayatollahs are doing fine, my in-law family that is still in the country not so much.
 

GYODX

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Oct 27, 2017
7,314
So you all oppose the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement against Israel and would have also opposed the Disinvestment from Apartheid South Africa movement? If you are in fact opposed to sanctions as a matter of principle.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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So you all oppose the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement against Israel and would have also opposed the Disinvestment from Apartheid South Africa movement? If you are in fact opposed to sanctions as a matter of principle.
you can support forms of boycott divestiment and sanction which don't have the same effect as (for example) the sanctions regimes placed on venezuela and Iran. the latter is what state sanctions are more likely to resemble
 

Platy

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Oct 25, 2017
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just remember that what price you expect them to pay to the usa, south america will want the USA to pay us the same =P
 

GYODX

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Oct 27, 2017
7,314
you can support forms of boycott divestiment and sanction which don't have the same effect as (for example) the sanctions regimes placed on venezuela and Iran. the latter is what state sanctions are more likely to resemble
Well I do agree on that, and it's what I have in mind when I say that Russia or China should be sanctioned--not to try to cut them off from the rest of the world.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,043
The TPP was horrendous policy and its been bizarre seeing the internet's opinion on it do a complete 180 just because Trump got us out of it. The problem is that Trump provided no alternative to it besides a fucking trade war.

Name one thing that is objectively terrible about TPP.

Additionally: the reason why the IP protections are within the TPP is that they're specifically targeted against the lopsided IP laws that exist when dealing with China.
 

Leandras

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
1,462
US Nationalism is really fucking scary when it even comes from Liberal circles.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
K. What is a better response to human rights violations?

Targeted Santions. Santion Putin, dictator Xi, their families... Sanctioning a whole country doesnt get anything. See Iran, all the political sphere is rich as hell, just the regular folk suffers.

Would you have opposed sanctions against Apartheid South Africa on the same grounds?

Yet, Saudi Arabia and Israel do not face any sanctions... Nobody should oppose sanctions against the leaders of those countries, but everyone should oppose sanctioning whole countries.
 

trashbandit

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Dec 19, 2019
3,912
Generally speaking, when countries try to get retribution against one another they tend to stick to the idea of a proportionate response. If the U.S want China/Russia/Iran to "pay" for meddling in our elections, I'm not entirely sure what the proportionate response is. They don't have legitimate elections anyway so it's not like we can meddle back, and sanctions never seem to do much(as a casual observer, someone can correct me if that isn't the case). A weak economy hasn't stopped Putin from consolidating power, and good luck trying to put a dent into China while basically everyone plays ball. I suppose we could impose sanctions regardless of whether they're expected to make a difference, because we have to make some sort of response, but I'm mostly concerned with the U.S beefing up its cyber security. Won't have to make anyone pay if we can pre-empt their interference.

Without a doubt one of the worst things Trump has done is dissolve the Iran nuclear deal; we make the smallest amount of progress towards repairing our relations and then he pissed that all away just because Obama made the deal.
 

Kthulhu

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Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Every time the US gets involved in the human rights of other countries it's almost always been a disaster, and that includes sanctions. Honestly, the best thing we could do is provide respite for refugees who want to come to our country.
Sanctions are how the Iran nuclear deal was even possible. Like I'm all for welcoming refugees but I don't understand how you can say this unless you're ignorant.
 

Joni

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Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Iran: reinstate previous deal with better checks. Iran was a willing actor.
Russia: withdraw from all warzones it is officially and unofficially involved in, reducing its army, election reform, European Union oversight of all elections.
China: More difficult to state, but at least recognition of worldwide IP rights and demilitarization of the South China Sea. Independent control for Hong Kong and taking down North Korean regime.
 

GYODX

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Oct 27, 2017
7,314
Targeted Santions. Santion Putin, dictator Xi, their families... Sanctioning a whole country doesnt get anything. See Iran, all the political sphere is rich as hell, just the regular folk suffers.



Yet, Saudi Arabia and Israel do not face any sanctions... Nobody should oppose sanctions against the leaders of those countries, but everyone should oppose sanctioning whole countries.
The scope of the BDS movement now and the Disinvestment from Apartheid South Africa movement then is much broader than just sanctioning the leaders of those countries.

BDS organizes campaigns for boycotts, divestment and sanctions against Israel. Boycotts are facilitated by urging the public to avoid purchasing goods made by Israeli companies, divestment by urging banks, pension funds, international companies, etc. to stop doing business in Israel, and sanctions by pressuring governments to end military trade and free-trade agreements with Israel and to suspend Israel's membership in international forums.

Sanctions were part of the solution to Apartheid. They could be part of the solution against Israel's oppression of Palestinians, and they could be part of the solution against China's oppression of Uighurs as well.
 

Deleted member 12224

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Generally speaking, when countries try to get retribution against one another they tend to stick to the idea of a proportionate response. If the U.S want China/Russia/Iran to "pay" for meddling in our elections, I'm not entirely sure what the proportionate response is. They don't have legitimate elections anyway so it's not like we can meddle back, and sanctions never seem to do much(as a casual observer, someone can correct me if that isn't the case). A weak economy hasn't stopped Putin from consolidating power, and good luck trying to put a dent into China while basically everyone plays ball. I suppose we could impose sanctions regardless of whether they're expected to make a difference, because we have to make some sort of response, but I'm mostly concerned with the U.S beefing up its cyber security. Won't have to make anyone pay if we can pre-empt their interference.
Russia is an oil-dependent, third-rate kleptocracy with an enormous nuclear arsenal and significant covert ops, foreign affairs, etc. institutional knowledge built up during the Cold War.

Diplomatically, the US needs to push Russia back into its box of its borders and the sphere of influence it has over the nearest former SSRs. NATO literally exists for this reason and for this state. Economically, and I've not looked at this in awhile, you're looking at sanctions against all notable state actors and the various oligarchs, and seeking confiscation/forfeiture of assets from these people that the US can touch.

There's also no reason to remain proportionate in response, either. Not a fucking one. If the US doesn't respond with proverbial hellfire via the above types of retaliatory acts, we're looking at this happening again every election. It's so low cost in terms of effort that if there's also no cost from potential retribution, why the fuck wouldn't they pursue this again and again.

None of this is advocating for broad-based "dumb" sanctions that disproportionately hit the population at-large. The last round of targeted sanctions against DPRK should serve as a template.
 

Deleted member 2809

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Even gigantic sanctions wouldn't be enough for their crimes
Don't know if I'd put Iran in the same league though
 
OP
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Iran: reinstate previous deal with better checks. Iran was a willing actor.
Russia: withdraw from all warzones it is officially and unofficially involved in, reducing its army, election reform, European Union oversight of all elections.
China: More difficult to state, but at least recognition of worldwide IP rights and demilitarization of the South China Sea. Independent control for Hong Kong and taking down North Korean regime.
And how do we propose we do that?
 

Mekanos

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Sanctions are how the Iran nuclear deal was even possible. Like I'm all for welcoming refugees but I don't understand how you can say this unless you're ignorant.

How are sanctions in Iran going right now? Unless it's targeted at specific individuals in power and not whole countries it just causes further suffering in those poorer populations.
 

Menx64

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Oct 30, 2017
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The scope of the BDS movement now and the Disinvestment from Apartheid South Africa movement then is much broader than just sanctioning the leaders of those countries.



Sanctions were part of the solution to Apartheid. They could be part of the solution against Israel's oppression of Palestinians, and they could be part of the solution against China's oppression of Uighurs as well.

BDS is under thread in the USA and BDS is a campaign for people and business willing to do it. It is not the same as a country sanctioning a whole country like the USA does with Iran.
 

GYODX

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Oct 27, 2017
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BDS is under thread in the USA and BDS is a campaign for people and business willing to do it. It is not the same as a country sanctioning a whole country like the USA does with Iran.
That is the Boycott and Divest part of it. The Sanctions part of it literally calls for governments to impose economic measures against Israel: to cut off trade deals with Israel, and to boot them off international forums, similar to what was done to Apartheid South Africa. They may not be as all-encompassing as what we are doing to Iran, but they are sanctions nonetheless.

When people like Joe Biden say that Russia and China "should pay a price," that is what they are referring to, not that they should be completely cut off the international system like Iran has been.
 

Kthulhu

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Oct 25, 2017
14,670
How are sanctions in Iran going right now? Unless it's targeted at specific individuals in power and not whole countries it just causes further suffering in those poorer populations.

Those are different sanctions done by the GOP and Trump after they killed the deal. They have nothing to do with the ones under the Obama admin.

Because of the Obama sanctions coupled with negotiations with the EU, China, Russia, and other countries Iran agreed to abide by UN rules/inspections and end their nuclear program.

I can guarantee far more people would be hurt by Iran having nukes and the resulting nuclear proliferation then the sanctions.
 

Nephtes

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Oct 27, 2017
4,599
Honestly OP, I have no idea.

I was scratching my head as Biden was saying in the debate that he would make Russia and China pay for election meddling and I was audibly asking my TV: "what does that mean? Give us specifics." But they never came.

I feel we're much too dependent on China for our cell phones and Playstations and random plastic doodads in McDonald's Happy Meals to do much to make China pay for anything.

At the end of the day, I feel like Biden's statements were empty words to help him appear tough on China in a bid to help his all but ensured election and nothing will come of it. I would love to be proven wrong. But I have little faith in any of our politicians to do the painful work necessary to decouple us from China.
 

Zip

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Oct 28, 2017
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Is it any different from the US and how dependent countries are on it?

Other countries have enjoyed the protective shield of American armed forces allowing them the ability to put less into their armed forces than they might otherwise, but it is different I'd say in that I expect compensating and disassociating armed forces and impacted local economies would be relatively less strenuous than trying to shift the bulk of your country's established industries away to more expensive, less familiar, manufacturing pipelines.
 

Huey

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Oct 27, 2017
13,497
What price should they pay? It sounds like warmongering speech, and that worries me.
He quite pointedly said "economic" price

Using US influence to damage the China's ability to export goods is the only language the CCP will understand. But no one in any US government is stupid enough to want to get into a conflict with China, basically for any reason.
 

Heshinsi

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Oct 25, 2017
16,128
Name one thing that is objectively terrible about TPP.

Additionally: the reason why the IP protections are within the TPP is that they're specifically targeted against the lopsided IP laws that exist when dealing with China.

Notice how the version of the TPP the rest of the countries involved signed had all the American shit Obama wanted to ram through dumped the minute Trump pulled out?

More than 20 provisions have been suspended or changed in the final text ahead of the deal's official signing in March, including rules around intellectual property originally included at the behest of Washington.

The original 12-member deal was thrown into limbo early last year when President Donald Trump withdrew from the agreement to prioritize protecting U.S. jobs.

The 11 remaining nations, led by Japan, finalized a revised trade pact in January, called the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). It is expected to be signed in Chile on March 8.

The deal will reduce tariffs in economies that together amount to more than 13 percent of global GDP - a total of $10 trillion. With the United States, it would have represented 40 percent.

"The big changes with TPP 11 are the suspension of a whole lot of the provisions of the agreement. They have suspended many of the controversial ones, particularly around pharmaceuticals," said Kimberlee Weatherall, professor of law at the University of Sydney.


Many of these changes had been inserted into the original TPP 12 at the demand of U.S. negotiators, such as rules ramping up intellectual property protection of pharmaceuticals, which some governments and activists worried would raise the costs of medicine.

www.reuters.com

Final version of Trans-Pacific trade deal released, rules pushed by U.S. on ice

The final version of a landmark deal aimed at cutting trade barriers in some of Asia-Pacific's fastest-growing economies was released on Wednesday, signalling the pact was a step closer to reality even without its star member the United States.

If Biden wants back in, he better not try to force this shit back in TPP, because the rest of us have agreed to a deal. The US is the outlier now and no longer in the driver's seat.
 

poklane

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Oct 25, 2017
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Russia's economy should be wrecked with the Ukrainian army being trained and equipped to the point that and further Russian fuckery comes at a very high price.
 

Beignet

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Aug 1, 2020
2,638
What was wrong with it?
Pardon me for taking so long to reply, I've been running errands and doing college work pretty much all day. The Vox article linked earlier in this thread pretty much describes my grievances with the deal in a succinct fashion. It was very much made as a sort of hawkish preemptive strike against future Chinese trade hegemony in the Pacific Rim but ultimately gave way too much of a say in big corporate and pharmaceutical interests. Draconian IP protections, pharmaceutical price gouging, and risking the employment of domestic workers without a proper safety net to fall back on or a plan to reemploy them somewhere else are all major downfalls of a deal that pretty explicitly puts all the cards in big business' hands just so that China doesn't do it first.

Name one thing that is objectively terrible about TPP.
Here's a WaPo opinion piece by Elizabeth Warren going into detail about a major provision in the deal known as ISDS which allows transnational companies to sort of have free reign in the deal at the expense of taxpayers.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,115
Pardon me for taking so long to reply, I've been running errands and doing college work pretty much all day. The Vox article linked earlier in this thread pretty much describes my grievances with the deal in a succinct fashion. It was very much made as a sort of hawkish preemptive strike against future Chinese trade hegemony in the Pacific Rim but ultimately gave way too much of a say in big corporate and pharmaceutical interests. Draconian IP protections, pharmaceutical price gouging, and risking the employment of domestic workers without a proper safety net to fall back on or a plan to reemploy them somewhere else are all major downfalls of a deal that pretty explicitly puts all the cards in big business' hands just so that China doesn't do it first.


Here's a WaPo opinion piece by Elizabeth Warren going into detail about a major provision in the deal known as ISDS which allows transnational companies to sort of have free reign in the deal at the expense of taxpayers.
So like do you believe we should make some deal but something a bit more progressive?
 

Beignet

alt account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
2,638
So like do you believe we should make some deal but something a bit more progressive?
I think the concept of a Pacific trade deal is fine itself, the problem is factors that tend to be outside of its scope. We need to rethink how companies' profits are distributed and we absolutely have to have a semblance of a social safety net at home to help mitigate the domestic recoil of globalizing our industries. I'm not a 200 IQ policy wonk so I'm not really the guy to be talking to for concrete solutions about this, I just have general ideas of what needs to be done before we can engage in something as ambitious as TPP. Unfortunately the backdrop of the deal is very much a race against China, I don't know if we can have a solid trade agreement that won't leave the common man to the wolves in time for their inevitable rise to #1. This shit is super complicated and relies on a litany of domestic and foreign factors while also being influenced by the ebb of historical precedent in regards to how we often conducted business abroad in the past. We've always kind of let our big multinationals do what they want
 
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Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Restore the nuclear agreement with Iran, sanctions on Russia and China.

With China specifically, I would frankly encourage moving manufacturing to other countries in Asia, including Vietnam and India. China is actually no longer the cheapest country in the region to send manufacturing jobs to. Manufacturing in third world countries is an unavoidable thing at this point, so instead encouraging putting those jobs in countries that are, well, ruled by less shitty governments than the CCP would be a better idea.

Otherwise, I do actually think colaborating with blocs like the EU to economically isolate China is the least damaging/violent way to remove the CCP from power, but last time I suggested that it resulted in a rather heated argument that ended up getting me temp banned, so I'm wary about getting too deep into that again. I think the CCP being removed from power permanently is a good thing for both the world and the people of China simultaneously. Aside from the well-known extreme authoritarianism the CCP indulges in and previous and current attempts at cultural and actual genocide, for all its talk of nationalism and whatnot the CCP has at times either actively tried to destroy China's pre-communist culture and history or shamelessly exploit it, and I'm not sure the party really cares for the country's rich history other than being a tool for exploitation. Problem is, the question of how to remove them from power is really hard and virtually impossible without causing some part of the Chinese population to suffer, which fucking sucks.