Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,536
Canada
That's all fair.

But I don't think the video was aimed at changing the minds of 'brainwashed' or heavily invested people?

I'm not sure why you lumped me into your quote reply, then. My specific point was that the video made good points that wouldn't actually work on those already immersed in NFT culture. The video is set up as an explainer - why would an NFT proponent be watching an explainer?

In direct regard to your point about the video not being objective enough for a casual audience, I disagree. I think it's important (and normal) to have an incredulous tone when discussing something that is self-evidently ridiculous. If one side is inherently ridiculous, attempting to shore it up to appear "balanced" does a disservice.
 

Tempy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,335
Well again respectfully, I disagree.

If I want to be better informed then I'm way more likely to seek out disinterested, impartial sources that explore all sides without bias.

"You need to shout louder" is how we get to shit like Fox News.

Mostly though, stuff like this seems ineffective. Its an opinion piece for people who already share the opinion. It doesn't help anyone looking to be better informed, and if anything it might be counter-productive, turning away people coming in with a genuinely open mind.

Feel free to post a link to a good video explaining why NFTs are a good thing if you find one.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,421
That's all fair.

But I don't think the video was aimed at changing the minds of 'brainwashed' or heavily invested people?

Certainly from my own perspective I went into it already thinking NFTs were a fad destined to die out. This is what I get:



Who's both-siding NFTs?



This is where we started, the suggestion the message could be more effective if delivered in a different way. You can agree or disagree with that, fair enough.

But we're already at the point where 'fence sitter', 'both sides', 'anti-vax', 'climate denier' and 'caught feelings' are all being brought into the conversation, just because a couple of us found the vid ineffective.



It does seem having a sensible conversation is increasingly difficult.

Guess I'll leave it there, don't want to derail further and I get the sense criticism of the video will always be taken as Them vs Us.

But you haven't really been discussing the merits of the video, you just came in complaining about the tone of the video. What's your actual critique of it? You're the one making it "them vs us" and not having a sensible conversation. Can you just argue on the merits of the video? Be the change you want to see
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,536
Canada
Yes I'm an anti-vax climate denier.

I think you made my point for me, mate, and way better.

If we're complaining about bad rhetoric, I'd like to highlight your response here.

When someone says "this kind of thinking/action is how we get anti-vaxxers and climate deniers" this does not mean that they are calling you an anti-vaxxer or climate denier. Playing the victim and saying "oh, so now I'm an anti-vaxxer climate denier, am I?" is an easy out and not a substantive response.
 

KrAzY

Member
Sep 2, 2018
2,018
kinda knew how stupid nfts are before this video but holy shit it makes it sound more stupid lmao
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,769
Good video on the whole, wasn't sure about using "queue" at first as it wasn't quite the right analogy and the position 0001 thing kinda meaningless as nobody would care where their NFT is recorded in the blockchain ledger, I didn't see any worthwhile correlation there. But it got better as it went on, the points he laboured got the message over eventually, but yeah some people could have stopped watching or got bored and come away with quite the wrong idea if they didn't see it through.

Now this video:
I would recommend this one too that paints an even bleaker picture about some of the "unintended" consequences of NFTs and an unregulated Blockchain technology


...that was so good, the guy Geoffrey Huntley who pulled the NFT Bay prank/troll/art project/attempt to inform - call it what you will, it's a bit of all of that - he has a very serious message behind his work and comes across as someone who really cares and genuinely does want to cast some impartial and critical light onto the whole thing, as someone who seemingly believes in the underlying tech but does not see any justifiable applications for it so far. It's an incredible effort really what he's done and I wish there had been more made about it and I'd seen it sooner -looking forward to part 2 of his work.

Now it's a bit shit the thread derailed into a spat over the tone or positioning of the video in the OP rather than the problems with NFTs themselves. That video is aimed at an audience that don't like or have heard bad things about NFTs but don't really understand what they actually are, so the tone and way he goes about presenting the information is tailored to that. I can see how that would put some people off who just want the pure facts without the extras as it can be easy to have the opposite effect to that intended and make people shut down when they think they're being influenced rather than informed. Accept that it might not be the all-in tech breakdown and discussion you're looking for or would prefer others got to see and move on... and if that's not to your taste, and if you havent already, go check out the one in bytesized's post as it goes deeper on many aspects of NFTs, what they actually are, how they can be manipulated and just how dangerously cult-like the whole machine behind promoting them has become with so many invested in them becomming a thing vs. so few impartial voices untouched by their reach able to be heard over the noise.
 

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,687
Excellent video. The one small criticism that I would give it is that he starts using the word "Blockchain" without ever explaining what it is. Even a single sentence like "Blockchains are a thing that was created to verify cryptocurrency transactions, and they've been repurposed to verify NFTs as well" would be enough.
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,210
Re: You can't fit images directly into NFTs/blockchain because the size is too big.

How big exactly is the size of an NFT? Is it possible, in theory, to put an ASCII art or a 8-bit pixel art just a few kilobytes worth directly inside the blockchain and not just the link to it? Don't get me wrong, I still think the whole business of it is a grift, I just find it baffling that all the smart people that create the technology haven't solved the 'this is not the art, just a receipt' problem.
 
"I didn't buy the poster, I just bought the right to stand next to the poster"

Man this right here is why I'm convinced that the people on this shit are either fucking stupid, 4 years old or looking to make money by scamming people. Seriously, what person with a fully functioning brain falls for this shit?! Like you aren't even paying to own something, your literally just paying for nothing.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
7,756
It's the newest valueless pyramid/ponzi scheme to distract you from being rightly angry at the very real consolidation of wealth, power, and tangible assets globally. Neo-feudalism is a hell of a drug.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,421
Re: You can't fit images directly into NFTs/blockchain because the size is too big.

How big exactly is the size of an NFT? Is it possible, in theory, to put an ASCII art or a 8-bit pixel art just a few kilobytes worth directly inside the blockchain and not just the link to it? Don't get me wrong, I still think the whole business of it is a grift, I just find it baffling that all the smart people that create the technology haven't solved the 'this is not the art, just a receipt' problem.

the upper limit is about 4mb, but you pay a transaction fee per bit. plus due to the complex way these transactions work, the bigger the transaction, the more there is a chance for it to fail or the longer it takes. plus of course it will be more expensive to conduct. and of course, this directly corresponds to how much energy is expended to carry out the transaction. Notoriously, the person who "invented" NFTs quickly realized that baking the image into the NFT is simply not a feasible solution, and just hand waved it away and never thought they would take off given how dumb they are with that implementation. He's basically against NFTs now https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/nfts-werent-supposed-end-like/618488/
 
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任天堂ファン

Alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2020
423
There are four NFT related topics on the front page. It feels like E3 has come around. I imagine they will be sticking around, I recall everyone hating on microtransactions back in the day but they are still here. COD, Xbox One (Think back to that initial reveal), Konami etc. so many things get hated on and it seems like the world is against it but "it" still perseveres.
 
Oct 25, 2017
337
There are four NFT related topics on the front page. It feels like E3 has come around. I imagine they will be sticking around, I recall everyone hating on microtransactions back in the day but they are still here. COD, Xbox One (Think back to that initial reveal), Konami etc. so many things get hated on and it seems like the world is against it but "it" still perseveres.
Microtransactions provide something to the consumer.

NFTs are used as a deceptive vehicle to get people to pay for something that's worth absolutely nothing.

Apples and oranges.
 

任天堂ファン

Alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2020
423
Microtransactions provide something to the consumer.

NFTs are used as a deceptive vehicle to get people to pay for something that's worth absolutely nothing.

Apples and oranges.

Well I have this ability that allows me to compare different fruit. I don't care about the specifics because no two situations are the same, all I know is people hated DLC because they felt developers were omitting things only to add them later yet nowadays everyone loves pre order bonuses. NFTs are growing in popularity also. They too will be here to stay.
 

AudioEppa

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,752
Well I have this ability that allows me to compare different fruit. I don't care about the specifics because no two situations are the same, all I know is people hated DLC because they felt developers were omitting things only to add them later yet nowadays everyone loves pre order bonuses. NFTs are growing in popularity also. They too will be here to stay.

preach 🙌🏾
 
Oct 25, 2017
337
Well I have this ability that allows me to compare different fruit. I don't care about the specifics because no two situations are the same, all I know is people hated DLC because they felt developers were omitting things only to add them later yet nowadays everyone loves pre order bonuses. NFTs are growing in popularity also. They too will be here to stay.

If NFTs are going to survive, it needs to demonstrate the following:

- What problems are NFT are attempting to solve at the moment?
- For those problems, does NFT at its current iteration solve it?
- If so, how does it technically compare to other alternatives (centralized databases, legal documents and copyrights, etc.) that tackles said problems? Is it better than what's currently in the market?

If NFTs can't do all three of the above, then the assumption that they are here to stay is a terrible one.
 

任天堂ファン

Alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2020
423
If NFTs are going to survive, it needs to demonstrate the following:

- What problems are NFT are attempting to solve at the moment?
- For those problems, does NFT at its current iteration solve it?
- If so, how does it technically compare to other alternatives (centralized databases, legal documents and copyrights, etc.) that tackles said problems? Is it better than what's currently in the market?

If NFTs can't do all three of the above, then the assumption that they are here to stay is a terrible one.

It gives some people a way to make money that's better than a newspaper job or working at McDonald's.

Teen Artists Are Making Millions on NFTs. How Are They Doing It?
 

SpartyCrunch

Xbox
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,525
Seattle, WA

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,522
Seattle
It gives some people a way to make money that's better than a newspaper job or working at McDonald's.

They "make" that money by taking it away from someone else, for no reason other than because that person is now thinking they can pull the same scam on the next person, and so on. It's a pyramid scheme like any other, and the technology and art are just set dressing. There is no actual asset being transferred, just wishful thinking and stardust.

Will some people make money along the way? Sure. Entirely at the expense of others.
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,998
USA
Re: You can't fit images directly into NFTs/blockchain because the size is too big.

How big exactly is the size of an NFT? Is it possible, in theory, to put an ASCII art or a 8-bit pixel art just a few kilobytes worth directly inside the blockchain and not just the link to it? Don't get me wrong, I still think the whole business of it is a grift, I just find it baffling that all the smart people that create the technology haven't solved the 'this is not the art, just a receipt' problem.
Yes it's possible. This is what cryptopunks does. They are only 24x24 pixel images though -- it is really not feasible to scale this much larger at all with Ethereum. Folks are largely attempting to solve this by using ipfs which is a different distributed technology for storing files. All together they are part of the web3 buzzword. I honestly think the file not being on chain seems like a manageable problem if you store a hash on chain that uniquely addresses a well implemented distributed file store.

This is not a defense of NFTs, which I think solve no real world problems and are sucking a lot of cash out of marks, but it is how folks are moving forward to try to fix one of the obvious flaws.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,203
There are four NFT related topics on the front page. It feels like E3 has come around. I imagine they will be sticking around, I recall everyone hating on microtransactions back in the day but they are still here. COD, Xbox One (Think back to that initial reveal), Konami etc. so many things get hated on and it seems like the world is against it but "it" still perseveres.
Considering that one of the threads you've invoked involves a case of voice data being stolen as admitted by the perpetrator, I think you've personally given a perfect demonstration of the integrity of the arguments in support of NFTs.
 
Jun 6, 2018
831
I would love it if they banned NFT discussion in this forum. I get that there are ways they are being applied to games, but most of the threads seem to have very little to do with gaming.

a lot of people are scared of the future of gaming and NFT's so rather than not talking about it and letting it go by discussion at least informs people around them. NFT's on their own probably do belong in off topic but there's a big future ahead with companies trying to shill NFT's into their games and that will always warrant discussion
 

Jade1962

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,286
If NFTs are going to survive, it needs to demonstrate the following:

- What problems are NFT are attempting to solve at the moment?
- For those problems, does NFT at its current iteration solve it?
- If so, how does it technically compare to other alternatives (centralized databases, legal documents and copyrights, etc.) that tackles said problems? Is it better than what's currently in the market?

If NFTs can't do all three of the above, then the assumption that they are here to stay is a terrible one.

What problems did digital skins solve?

NFTs are just the latest digital "product" to extract your money.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,894
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
He probably glosses over what "blockchain" is a little too easily for folks who are confused by the whole thing, but besides that, it does a good job at explaining NFTs. I just wish it didn't take a 20 minute video. Assumptions based on deliberately deceptive optics and bad faith actors who stand to gain from rubes being tricked, can do damage way faster than these types of videos can ever reasonably prevent.
 

LastNac

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,520
Ok, I'm still confused.

However I can take a pre existing image, let's say the US flag, and alter the coloration of only 1 stripe each time, with 1 color giving me 50 variations. Wouldn't I then have 50 NFT's I can sell?
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,133
Re: You can't fit images directly into NFTs/blockchain because the size is too big.

How big exactly is the size of an NFT? Is it possible, in theory, to put an ASCII art or a 8-bit pixel art just a few kilobytes worth directly inside the blockchain and not just the link to it? Don't get me wrong, I still think the whole business of it is a grift, I just find it baffling that all the smart people that create the technology haven't solved the 'this is not the art, just a receipt' problem.
I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that blockchain tech is designed mainly for tracking transactions, not storing files.

It's worth pointing out that storing artwork on the chain would solve almost none of the actual issues with art NFTs.

Ok, I'm still confused.

However I can take a pre existing image, let's say the US flag, and alter the coloration of only 1 stripe each time, with 1 color giving me 50 variations. Wouldn't I then have 50 NFT's I can sell?
Sure, but you wouldn't even need to change the flag. Or have a flag. A pretty big point of the video is that the images are completely superfluous.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,203
Ok, I'm still confused.

However I can take a pre existing image, let's say the US flag, and alter the coloration of only 1 stripe each time, with 1 color giving me 50 variations. Wouldn't I then have 50 NFT's I can sell?
If we're talking legally, I think what it broils down to is that NFTs are too new for anyone to have regulated yet, so you can get away with anything until you can't.

If we're talking practically, the key is that the image isn't the NFT itself. The NFT is just a receipt and it has a link in it. It has no control over what's at the other end of that link, it just says that it's associated with whatever happens to be there.

If some random stranger sends an e-mail to you with a link and you have no idea what it is, it could be a virus or something - that's the same scenario. The NFT has no way of knowing if the image is unique, or if the person minting the NFT is the original owner. It has no way of knowing that it's still an image and that isn't a virus now.
 

chaobreaker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,629
This video confirms what I understood about this whole grift but a comment on the video has a more crucial point to make:

"That's why NFT bros are so vocal about their support for the entire system. It's built on believing it works." Exactly! We often make the mistake of believing that the NFT bros are stupid or incompetent. There are plenty of NFT bros that understand the technology well enough to know that it has no value whatsoever. They make their money by selling hype. It's also part of the reason why I think that finding good information on NFTS is difficult. These guys have a vested interest in people not understanding the technology, because if they did, they would be able to make more informed purchasing decisions.

Cryptobros never EVER argue the technology in good faith. Every word that comes out of their mouth about crypto or NFTs is to ultimately serve their goals of finding more marks to join the speculative market so they aren't holding the bag when the bubble bursts.

Everything from "NFTs will let you use an asset from one blockchain game in another blockchain game" or "artists can protect their works by minting them on the blockchain" is all patently false and they know it.

They have no answers to why all these new cryptocurrencies or NFTs are full of scammers and rugpullers. Or why all these artists are getting their art stolen by NFT makers or why there are bots hijacking thousands of highly followed social media accounts to hock crypto.

They are not arguing in good faith.
 

Senator Rains

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,392
Good video, I think. Still not too sure about how it all fits into the metaverse.

When there's obvious bias it starts to undermine the validity of the argument. I'm not saying I disagree with a single thing in this video, more that it would be more effective in my opinion if it clearly laid out how this all works without such obvious bias.

While I don't think the video is "biased", I definitely think his characterization is reductionist to the point that it leaves you with less infromation.

Mainly, his points about:

1- Owning a videogame NFT can mean you transfer that NFT into a different game. He follows up by saying it's not possible because assets are different. But NFTs are not assets? And what about if they were two games from the same creator of the NFT.. could you then transfer it? How come literally everyone is clamoring for the Castelvania NFT?

I'm honestly fine with labeling all of people who bought Castlevania NFTs are idiots. I just need more evidence to prove they're idiots lmao. I mean Konami isn't some dudebro who created NFTs randomly and is laundering money through them… this is a company that is regulated and controlled by laws. They wouldn'tve done this if all of it was, as the video says, nothing… right?

2- Who the hell is Mr. Blockchain? Is he the same as the creator of NFTs? If yeah, then that removes the scarcity because a different creator can create the same "queue" right?


I'm sure that NFTs are a scam at worst, and a terrible idea of ownership at best. I wouldn't even compare them to Crypto. But I do need to be better informed in order to explain my reasoning for others who are just as persuadable.
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,769
Well I have this ability that allows me to compare different fruit.
Does your skill extend to the ability to discern, say, the relative merits of a physical Golden Delicious (that you can hold in your hand, eat, compost, grow a tree from its seeds, etc.) and a database entry that currently links to a digitised photograph of an orange via a hyperlink but could tomorrow point to nothing, a picture of my cat's anus or worse (depending on the hosting provider still being in business or selling up to a 3rd party who's got a thing for catbums or whatever).

I don't care about the specifics because no two situations are the same, all I know is people hated DLC because they felt developers were omitting things only to add them later yet nowadays everyone loves pre order bonuses.
People being happy with the situation whereby they offer up their money in advance to receive something in-game that either proves they wre there day 0 or helps them cheese the game or whatever is a very, very different thing to what NFTs might offer anyone inside and out of gaming (which is, effectively, a whole load of fuck all).

It's a lazy argument to simply say "people hated DLC/MTX yet look at them now!" without stating why NFTs offer even a single parallel to that situation, purely because NFTs offer zero to gaming that isn't already there.

Tell me why NFTs are inevitable - exactly what do they bring to designers, developers, publishers and gamers that doesn't already exist?

NFTs are growing in popularity also. They too will be here to stay.
NFTs are growing in popularity? With who? With people who "invested" in them who want to pull more people in to push their stake higher up the pyramid. Show me one instance of where there's a use of NFTs in gaming that is popular beyond the fact that someone, somewhere is making more money than they put in. Just one.
 

Adulfzen

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,658
gotta love the people coming in here to astroturf and trying to sell NFT as a concept, completely oblivious to how they look from an outside perspective while repeating the same talking points every single time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,452
Well I have this ability that allows me to compare different fruit. I don't care about the specifics because no two situations are the same, all I know is people hated DLC because they felt developers were omitting things only to add them later yet nowadays everyone loves pre order bonuses.

I can name you about a thousand examples of things that people hated that are no longer around now.
Now what?

Like, what kind of argument is this? "There is this one thing that people hated at first and now they are okay with it, so surely that applies to this as well"

Also, "everybody loves pre order bonuses" lol
 

Brat-Sampson

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,576
It's snake oil. People literally *only* ever buy them because they're told they can make money doing it. That's a scam/pyramid scheme right there. Especially when the thing they're buying has zero inherent value. It's just a tag linked to (often) an image that is (obviously) infinitely reproduceable.
 

Polk

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,406
1- Owning a videogame NFT can mean you transfer that NFT into a different game. He follows up by saying it's not possible because assets are different. But NFTs are not assets? And what about if they were two games from the same creator of the NFT.. could you then transfer it? How come literally everyone is clamoring for the Castelvania NFT?

I'm honestly fine with labeling all of people who bought Castlevania NFTs are idiots. I just need more evidence to prove they're idiots lmao. I mean Konami isn't some dudebro who created NFTs randomly and is laundering money through them… this is a company that is regulated and controlled by laws. They wouldn'tve done this if all of it was, as the video says, nothing… right?

2- Who the hell is Mr. Blockchain? Is he the same as the creator of NFTs? If yeah, then that removes the scarcity because a different creator can create the same "queue" right?
1. going with languages analogy. Let's say one game was written in English, other in Spanish and third one in French. NFT to work would require something on the end of NFT to be represented in all languages, or each game to have translator. Now imageine if we are not only talking about languages, but dialects and accents withing those languages. People were buying Castlevania NFTS beacuse they look cool and their name will be on some Konami website.

2. Mr. Blockhain is just group of people running the public database. Everyone has the same copy, so you know you can trust them. And everyone can create their own smaller database within bigger database.
 

CONCHOBAR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,922
Phenomenal video by Josh, probably the best I've watched explaining NFTs and how they're being used. There were some things about NFTs that I still had not come to understand, like that they don't actually give you ownership over the things they're attached to, so the video was particularly enlightening to me in that regard. I thought his overarching analogy of 'the queue' was particularly apt.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,133
1- Owning a videogame NFT can mean you transfer that NFT into a different game. He follows up by saying it's not possible because assets are different. But NFTs are not assets? And what about if they were two games from the same creator of the NFT.. could you then transfer it? How come literally everyone is clamoring for the Castelvania NFT?
It would take a lot of coordination and effort to make this a reality. By "assets are different" he meant that you can't just take a gun from one game and drop it into another and expect it to work. The programming is completely different between games. There would have to be unified specifications for what a gun is and any participating game would need to implement guns exactly like that or have an interface for interpreting gun blueprints to its own logic.

The kicker is that if something like that were to happen, NFTs would have nothing to do with it, they'd just be the authentication method. They could also just authenticate with your Steam or PSN account or whatever.
I'm honestly fine with labeling all of people who bought Castlevania NFTs are idiots. I just need more evidence to prove they're idiots lmao. I mean Konami isn't some dudebro who created NFTs randomly and is laundering money through them… this is a company that is regulated and controlled by laws. They wouldn'tve done this if all of it was, as the video says, nothing… right?
Companies do NFTs because they're free money. That's it.

There is a difference between some rando minting some Castlevania gameplay and Konami officially doing it. It's kind of comparable to owning a signed copy of something. Like an NFT, a signature is essentially meaningless, but we still see some value in that. So yeah, if someone thinks having a GIF "signed" by Konami (and their name on a website) is worth what they paid for it, fair enough. But if they think it means anything beyond that, they are indeed an idiot.
 

ZeroMaverick

Member
Mar 5, 2018
4,520
LMAO I didn't realize those people weren't actually buying the images but were actually just buying a spot in a database. I thought: "Well, it's silly to buy something that can be easily reproduced, but I guess if people really like those monkeys, then cool...? I bought Fortnite skins, so I know how it goes."

But you're telling me they aren't even buying the images, and I'm losing my mind over it lol I had no idea it was somehow dumber than I thought.
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,007
I'm honestly fine with labeling all of people who bought Castlevania NFTs are idiots. I just need more evidence to prove they're idiots lmao. I mean Konami isn't some dudebro who created NFTs randomly and is laundering money through them… this is a company that is regulated and controlled by laws. They wouldn'tve done this if all of it was, as the video says, nothing… right?

What laws? The video makes a point of mentioning that there really are no regulations governing these things yet.