What's the best "Song of Ice and Fire" of modern Sci-fi?

apocat · Jan 6, 2018

butzopower said:
Do books from The Culture series have to be read in order? I started Consider Plebus, but I wasn't feeling the characters or plot as much. Would be willing to get one a try that has the highest recommendation.

Nah, they are pretty much stand alone. Consider Phlebas is probably not the best one to read first, even though I started there as well. I haven't read more than a handful, but the player of games or use of weapons are probably better as a starting point, and much better books as a whole.

behOemoth · Jan 6, 2018

I can't think of anything but Dune and Red Rising. I never read Hyperion.
Sci-fi tends to be more about technological fears in recent years. Three-Body Problem/Remembrance of Earth's past is pretty awesome. The Nexus trilogy was pretty awesome as well.

Ronnie Poncho · Jan 6, 2018

Phantom Thief said:
Not exactly the same, but Seveneves by Neal Stephenson might fit? It's just one book though, not a series.

I'd love to see Seveneves adapted as a TV show. I think it's being made into a film, but I can't imagine fitting all that into a film - it deserves 2 seasons of 10 episodes at least to fit such a vast story.

HStallion · Jan 6, 2018

Dune is only similar for like the first book or two. Then it gets fucking CRAZY in ways ASoIaF never even comes close to matching

hello sexual enslavement, god Emperor worm and if you thought Jon Snow coming back to life was something... lol

. Not too mention the series had to be finished by Herbert's hack of a son and its not good.

BossAttack · Jan 6, 2018

apocat said:
It kind of fits. The expanse has a similar structure with different viewpoint characters, and it does a great job of portraying different conflicting political interests in a morally gray way that is somewhat similar to asoiaf. It has the looming threat of something unknown that threatens all factions. It differs with how you largely follow a semi-constant group of protagonists through the books, and it isn't as inherently cynical and subversive about genre tropes as asoiaf. The way the conflicts play out is also fairly different. But there are enough common ground to draw parallels. It's not a asoiaf clone by any means, but I'd be hard pressed to find something completely analogous, and hopefully that's not what op is after.

Yeah, but ASOIAF is actually written well.

hendersonhank · Jan 6, 2018

Wormsign said:
It might be a bit older than you're requesting but if you haven't checked the series out you might be interested in Piers Anthony's Bio of a Space Tyrant.

Came here to post this. Fun, sprawling series, but be prepared for a level of sexism that isn't too popular these days.

flook · Jan 6, 2018

Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen is more fantasy so probably not what you are after although it does have a large cast of superbly realised characters and an interconnecting plot. The first novel (in a series of 10) is a difficult start as it opens with zero exposition but as a whole its highly recommended. Its also complete and the author has written/is writing other novels set in the same world.

THErest · Jan 6, 2018

HStallion said:
Dune is only similar for like the first book or two. Then it gets fucking CRAZY in ways ASoIaF never even comes close to matching

hello sexual enslavement, god Emperor worm and if you thought Jon Snow coming back to life was something... lol

. Not too mention the series had to be finished by Herbert's hack of a son and its not good.

Nope nope nope. Series was never finished. Never.

HStallion · Jan 6, 2018

THErest said:
Nope nope nope. Series was never finished. Never.

You mean you didn't read the gripping Accountant of Dune and spellbinding Spice Farmer of Dune?

Kill3r7 · Jan 6, 2018

HStallion said:
Dune is only similar for like the first book or two. Then it gets fucking CRAZY in ways ASoIaF never even comes close to matching

hello sexual enslavement, god Emperor worm and if you thought Jon Snow coming back to life was something... lol

. Not too mention the series had to be finished by Herbert's hack of a son and its not good.

Yep. Although I thought it was well known that the first three books are the real classics. If you are really feeling ambitious maybe the next three books which Frank Herbert also wrote. The rest are junk.

Nox · Jan 6, 2018

I'd say The Expanse and maybe Honor Harrington ?

HStallion · Jan 6, 2018

Kill3r7 said:
Yep. Although I thought it was well known that the first three books are the real classics. If you are really feeling ambitious maybe the next three books which Frank Herbert also wrote. The rest are junk.

The first three are the most similar in that they're about political intrigue, back stabbing, between noble houses but on a galactic scale but even by the third book shit's already starting to go crazy.

Palette Swap · Jan 6, 2018

linkboy said:
Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy is my favorite sci-fi book series.

I read all three books last year and they had me hooked.

I read them recently and thought the series was absolutely phenomenal and will be considered an all-time classic soon enough, but I don't believe it really fits the ASOIAF bill.
As others have mentioned, the Expanse series kind of matches that, even if it's a bit trashy military sci-fi at times.

Kill3r7 · Jan 6, 2018

HStallion said:
The first three are the most similar in that they're about political intrigue, back stabbing, between noble houses but on a galactic scale but even by the third book shit's already starting to go crazy.

No doubt. Although when it comes to sci-fi Ender's Game to Speaker for the Dead changes the most thematically.

Jag · Jan 6, 2018

Palette Swap said:
As others have mentioned, the Expanse series kind of matches that, even if it's a bit trashy military sci-fi at times.

That's what makes it so enjoyable.

HStallion · Jan 6, 2018

SciFi comics might also be a better venue for something like the OP is looking for. Even something like Saga might work though obviously that's a bit more personal an intimate and obviously more humorous.

THErest · Jan 6, 2018

HStallion said:
You mean you didn't read the gripping Accountant of Dune and spellbinding Spice Farmer of Dune?

In all seriousness, my mom kept buying me their books, and I read them. I read that first prequel trilogy. I read that Butlerian Jihad trilogy. I read the series conclusion.

All of it was shit. Allll of it. Even my young brain knew, reading that prequel trilogy, that they kept getting shit wrong. I mean, Gaius Helen Mohiam is Jessica's real mother? By a rape, no less? Kynes, the Emperor's planetary ecologist went native--because he grew up on Dune among the Fremen? A rich young dude becomes a cyborg? A freaking cyborg! The Harkonnens have a no-ship????? A FUCKING NO-SHIP!

Then we had The Butlerian Jihad trilogy AKA The Terminator iiiiinnn spaaaaaaaace. Which then became the conclusion to the whole series.

If those two jokers ever had actual Frank Herbert notes, they must have pissed and shat all over them, wiped their asses with them, tossed them in a fire, inhaled the smoke, then sat down to write their Dune books.

tokkun · Jan 6, 2018

Atenhaus said:
Also The Expanse series is an obvious choice here.

I like the first 2 books, but I'm not sure I see the comparison to ASoIaF. It's really more reminiscent of video game typical plots, as slightly unassuming 30-ish white dude with military background improbably saves the universe multiple times while becoming increasingly badass in the process.

apocat · Jan 6, 2018

BossAttack said:
Yeah, but ASOIAF is actually written well.

Hahaha! Ok, you just made me laugh out loud in a crowded subway wagon!

Yeah, Martin is a much better writer, I won't contest that. You don't read the expanse for the prose. That said the expanse books are legitimate page turners, and the world building is pretty great, at least in my opinion.

Palette Swap · Jan 6, 2018

Jag said:
That's what makes it so enjoyable.

Oh yeah, definitely, I guess it was a back handed compliment, but it does really well what it aims to do. It's just that people asking ASOIAF in space and getting Halo's cousin might be surprised.

theDream · Jan 6, 2018

For excellent characters, an amazing twisty turny plot and space ships, read Illuminae.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/178074837X/?tag=e100-21

It's excellent, and not up its own ass with hard sci fi. It's just very good story telling and good characters. It's funny, and romantic without being corny and has excellent dialogue. A very adventurous story with AIs and conspiracy theories. The prose is solid too.

HStallion · Jan 6, 2018

THErest said:
In all seriousness, my mom kept buying me their books, and I read them. I read that first prequel trilogy. I read that Butlerian Jihad trilogy. I read the series conclusion.

All of it was shit. Allll of it. Even my young brain knew, reading that prequel trilogy, that they kept getting shit wrong. I mean, Gaius Helen Mohiam is Jessica's real mother? By a rape, no less? Kynes, the Emperor's planetary ecologist went native--because he grew up on Dune among the Fremen? A rich young dude becomes a cyborg? A freaking cyborg! The Harkonnens have a no-ship????? A FUCKING NO-SHIP!

Then we had The Butlerian Jihad trilogy AKA The Terminator iiiiinnn spaaaaaaaace. Which then became the conclusion to the whole series.

If those two jokers ever had actual Frank Herbert notes, they must have pissed and shat all over them, wiped their asses with them, tossed them in a fire, inhaled the smoke, then sat down to write their Dune books.

I stupidly read some of them as well, I believe it was a couple of the Chapter House novels and man... they were all so bad. It almost felt like a parody of the original stories without realizing it was supposed to be a serious novel.

THErest · Jan 6, 2018

Kill3r7 said:
Yep. Although I thought it was well known that the first three books are the real classics. If you are really feeling ambitious maybe the next three books which Frank Herbert also wrote. The rest are junk.

Eh, the fourth is my second favorite after the first. Then the third. The second serves little purpose but to set up the third, IMO.

I found God Emperor of Dune fascinating. Everything is different. It makes the series so long term. The first book may as well be ancient Egypt compared to the fourth. And you really had to pay attention to understand Leto's design (or just read the next book, lol). If you found it all too weird, strange, unsettling, or overwhelming, congratulations, so does the main character.

ZeroNoir_ · Jan 6, 2018

The Expanse!

BossAttack · Jan 6, 2018

apocat said:
Hahaha! Ok, you just made me laugh out loud in a crowded subway wagon!

Yeah, Martin is a much better writer, I won't contest that. You don't read the expanse for the prose. That said the expanse are legitimate page turners, and the world building is pretty great, at least in my opinion.

Hehe.

I gave up on the series after the first book, though it was absolute trash and painfully cliche. Like, Miller is just a pure noir detective stereotype with zero twist or added complexity. And, Holden is mentally challenged.

I've been enjoying the show though, hopefully they can keep the interesting parts of the books while veering far away from its many bad ideas and prose.

THErest · Jan 6, 2018

HStallion said:
I stupidly read some of them as well, I believe it was a couple of the Chapter House novels and man... they were all so bad. It almost felt like a parody of the original stories without realizing it wasn't a serious novel.

The notion that these two authors read and understood Dune is like the idea that Trump reads and understands...well, anything.

EDIT: To avoid further derailing the thread, I know you said don't just say Dune, OP, but Dune by Frank Herbert, at least through the fourth book.

HStallion · Jan 6, 2018

THErest said:
Eh, the fourth is my second favorite after the first. Then the third. The second serves little purpose but to set up the third, IMO.

I found God Emperor of Dune fascinating. Everything is different. It makes the series so long term. The first book may as well be ancient Egypt compared to the fourth. And you really had to pay attention to understand Leto's design (or just read the next book, lol). If you found it all too weird, strange, unsettling, or overwhelming, congratulations, so does the main character.

Just saying if I ever run for President, its on the Golden Path platform

PostModernMaybe · Jan 6, 2018

Retroarnold said:
What about the Red Rising series by Pierce Brown?

It's told only from one view point, but it's an epic sci-fi saga with political intrigue, interconnected plots, and in book 2 and 3 lots of spaceships and epic battles. Book 1 is more like a messed up Battle Royal/Hunger Games.

I'll co-sign this!

Ratrat · Jan 6, 2018

Z.. said:
I read the first 6. Great stuff, if you liked the anime you will definitely enjoy them. Started reading them after watching 10~15 episodes since I was enjoying it alot and didn't want to spoil the books by watching it all first. I kept reading and then watching it as I went along but at a certain point I just felt like continuing to read them was a bit pointless since the adaptation was just nailing everything whilst amplifying it's appeal.

I see. Thought you were knocking the books. Guess it just depends on which medium you prefer.

tokkun · Jan 6, 2018

THErest said:
In all seriousness, my mom kept buying me their books, and I read them. I read that first prequel trilogy. I read that Butlerian Jihad trilogy. I read the series conclusion.

All of it was shit. Allll of it. Even my young brain knew, reading that prequel trilogy, that they kept getting shit wrong. I mean, Gaius Helen Mohiam is Jessica's real mother? By a rape, no less? Kynes, the Emperor's planetary ecologist went native--because he grew up on Dune among the Fremen? A rich young dude becomes a cyborg? A freaking cyborg! The Harkonnens have a no-ship????? A FUCKING NO-SHIP!

Then we had The Butlerian Jihad trilogy AKA The Terminator iiiiinnn spaaaaaaaace. Which then became the conclusion to the whole series.

If those two jokers ever had actual Frank Herbert notes, they must have pissed and shat all over them, wiped their asses with them, tossed them in a fire, inhaled the smoke, then sat down to write their Dune books.

The quality of writing is much lower, but let's not act like there weren't some pretty ludicrous plot elements in the later Frank Herbert novels as well. All the Duncan Idaho stuff, Miles Teg, the Honored Maters, Space Jews, etc. I can totally believe that a lot of those stupid plot points came from Frank's notes.

Deleted member 29682 · Jan 6, 2018

Glasgow Mega-Snake said:
Tuf Voyaging is more a short story collection with some overarching plots than a novel. It's pretty unique, as it starts as as a fun and pulpy space romp that doesn't take itself too seriously (really, some of the concepts are ridiculous, you have to just roll with it), but gets pretty dark with the later stories. Tuf is one of GRRM's best characters imo.

You're the only other person I've heard who's read Tuf Voyaging. I like it a lot, even if it gets a bit weird with the whole god comparisons in later stories. I really do like the idea of the series and it suits itself really well to a short story anthology. I think GRRM said that if it were ever adapted he'd want Conleth Hill (Varys) to play Tuf, which is basically how I imagined him in my mind anyway.

Kill3r7 · Jan 6, 2018

THErest said:
Eh, the fourth is my second favorite after the first. Then the third. The second serves little purpose but to set up the third, IMO.

I found God Emperor of Dune fascinating. Everything is different. It makes the series so long term. The first book may as well be ancient Egypt compared to the fourth. And you really had to pay attention to understand Leto's design (or just read the next book, lol). If you found it all too weird, strange, unsettling, or overwhelming, congratulations, so does the main character.

Interesting, I might have to reread them. It's been near 20 years since I read them.

apocat · Jan 6, 2018

BossAttack said:
Hehe.

I gave up on the series after the first book, though it was absolute trash and painfully cliche. Like, Miller is just a pure noir detective stereotype with zero twist or added complexity. And, Holden is mentally challenged.

I've been enjoying the show though, hopefully they can keep the interesting parts of the books while veering far away from its many bad ideas and prose.

The show is smart about introducing certain characters earlier than in the books, which works to its benefit. And Holden is absolutely barely a character, nobody really likes him. However I'll have to admit liking the noir in space subplot, it's tropey, but in a fun way. Hope the show gets a few more seasons.

THErest · Jan 6, 2018

tokkun said:
The quality of writing is much lower, but let's not act like there weren't some pretty ludicrous plot elements in the later Frank Herbert novels as well. All the Duncan Idaho stuff, Miles Teg, the Honored Maters, Space Jews, etc. I can totally believe that a lot of those stupid plot points came from Frank's notes.

I got no problem with Miles and Duncan. Miles was OP in one book, but not the other. Space jews was a bit weird, but it could have been any culture steeped in tradition. Honored Matres were wacky as shit, but they still served a thematic purpose, and they kind of had to be wacky in the sense that they came from the unknown, they are outsiders.

Anyway, the issues (that I remembered off the top of my head having read those books 10-15 years ago) I listed in my post that you quoted are in direct contradiction with Frank's books. Gaius Helen Mohiam, as a matter of record, is not Jessica's mother. Kynes was appointed to Dune. Cyborgs sure as shit did not and could not exist. Neither did no-ships, as they were invented thousands of years later as a response and solution to the God Emperor's powers.

RetroGiant · Jan 6, 2018

Frontier Saga? I've only read like 3-4 of them but it's pretty grand in scale. Not as much lore or world building though.

Ratrat · Jan 6, 2018

Brian Damage said:
You're the only other person I've heard who's read Tuf Voyaging. I like it a lot, even if it gets a bit weird with the whole god comparisons in later stories. I really do like the idea of the series and it suits itself really well to a short story anthology. I think GRRM said that if it were ever adapted he'd want Conleth Hill (Varys) to play Tuf, which is basically how I imagined him in my mind anyway.

That casting is perfect. It will never happen though.

Kneecap · Jan 6, 2018

David F. Hamilton - Night's Dawn Series
David Weber - Honor Harrington Series
Ian Banks - Culture novels

You can't go wrong with any of these although the Hamilton and Weber series do go on a book or two long (my Hamilton set is 6 large paperbacks long).

Another Weber series worth noting is his Safehold series. Currently at 8 huge books with at least one more to go, this series has a hard science fiction context, but is more interested in laying out Weber's depiction of the evolution of military technology from galleons and crossbows through modern firearms.

WeAreStarStuff · Jan 6, 2018

linkboy said:
Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy is my favorite sci-fi book series.

I read all three books last year and they had me hooked.

I came here to make this exact post. I'm on the final book and they have been phenomenal. I cannot recommend this series enough. Read it now.

Deleted member 29682 · Jan 6, 2018

Ratrat said:
That casting is perfect. It will never happen though.

A man can dream...

Glasgow Mega-Snake · Jan 6, 2018

Brian Damage said:
You're the only other person I've heard who's read Tuf Voyaging. I like it a lot, even if it gets a bit weird with the whole god comparisons in later stories. I really do like the idea of the series and it suits itself really well to a short story anthology. I think GRRM said that if it were ever adapted he'd want Conleth Hill (Varys) to play Tuf, which is basically how I imagined him in my mind anyway.

Haha yeah I don't think I know anyone else who's read it. I wanted to check out some of GRRM's earlier stuff and actually randomly found Tuf Voyaging in a bookstore. I think GRRM's publishers rereleased a lot of his older works when GOT's popularity exploded, but I don't think they sold well, at least here you hardly see them anymore

As to Varys... yeah I can see it

Kneecap · Jan 6, 2018

spelk said:
Haha yeah I don't think I know anyone else who's read it. I wanted to check out some of GRRM's earlier stuff and actually randomly found Tuf Voyaging in a bookstore. I think GRRM's publishers rereleased a lot of his older works when GOT's popularity exploded, but I don't think they sold well, at least here you hardly see them anymore

Its been decades since I read it, but I remember it fondly. I was told about it by a very active member of the WisCon community who said, even way back then (pre Song), that he would read anything GRRM wrote even his shopping list.

Rendering... · Jan 6, 2018

The Culture series is unmissable even though it doesn't offer a serialized story.

butzopower said:
Do books from The Culture series have to be read in order? I started Consider Plebus, but I wasn't feeling the characters or plot as much. Would be willing to get one a try that has the highest recommendation.

Not really. There are scattered references that you'll miss if you don't read the books in release order, but never anything important.

Try The Player of Games or Use of Weapons. They're widely agreed to be among the best books in the series.

Look to Windward is also outstanding.

Dogtato-kun · Jan 6, 2018

flook said:
Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen is more fantasy so probably not what you are after although it does have a large cast of superbly realised characters and an interconnecting plot. The first novel (in a series of 10) is a difficult start as it opens with zero exposition but as a whole its highly recommended. Its also complete and the author has written/is writing other novels set in the same world.

I'm reading this series now, like 4 books in. While I agree that it's mainly a fantasy series, a lot of the concepts that are described as "magic" and "gods" and whatever could be interpreted as the manipulation of alternate/pocket dimensions and various evolutionary stages of humanity. I also agree that the first book or two are rough to get into, but I'm now actually enjoying the somewhat disjointed way the story's being told.

I also don't know if this really fits the topic, but I'd like to suggest the Xeelee books by Stephen Baxter. They aren't a straight narrative like A Song of Ice and Fire, but they do tell a complete story, and are some of the most creative and satisfying hard science fiction books I've read recently.

TinMachine · Jan 6, 2018

Dr.Phibes said:
Otherland by Tad Williams. Not a lot of spaceships, but the writing more than makes up for it. Probably my favourite series of books.

Second this. Otherland ticks off all the boxes: epic worldbuilding, batshit crazy ideas, fully developed characters and partly scary as hell / funny as shit. Oh, and The Expanse series, of course. And Peter F. Hamiltons Night's Dawn -trilogy.

firehawk12 · Jan 6, 2018

Heshinsi said:
No lol. There's 12 mainline books, and she actually achieves everything she's earned through blood and tears. Seventy percent of her accomplishments are through her own sheer will, training, expertise, and stubbornness. Twenty percent due to her ability to command loyalty and devotion from her subordinates, and the final ten percent coming down to luck.

I know, I guess putting it in italics was not sarcastic enough. lol

dead souls · Jan 6, 2018

The Expanse, though it's a little different--its authors actually release books and the series didn't fall apart in books 4/5.

spelk · Jan 6, 2018

Naturally The Expanse is a prominent choice.

Has anyone mentioned The Gap series? Perhaps that is an overlooked series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_Cycle

I'd also chip in with Jack Campbell's (John G. Hemry's) The Lost Fleet series too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Fleet

kswiston · Jan 6, 2018

Window said:
LOGH is a good shout with the history parallels (War of the Roses, Alexander), large cast of characters, Machiavellian-ism, scope and shocking deaths. No sex though.

I have read the first two. They are enjoyable, but it sort of skews closer to YA fiction than ASOIAF in terms of character complexity.

pulga · Jan 6, 2018

What's the essential Dune reading list? Asking because I'm gathering the kid smelled cash after the dad died and went on a writing spree.

Ether_Snake · Jan 6, 2018

As a fan of sci-fi, I have to say I have yet to read a single book that I can consider great. Movies tend to better serve the genre. Dune had potential in terms of ideas, but I felt it was a tedious read, poorly paced and with dull dialogue.

As far as anything as well written as GoT—minus George's tiresome habit of writing lengthy descriptions of garments every single time a character appears in a scene no matter how pointless it is—with interesting characters and well written arcs, I can't think of anything that comes close at all.

What's the best "Song of Ice and Fire" of modern Sci-fi?

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