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Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
From the lurking I've done on this forum, it seemed like "liberal" and "the left" have been colloquially used interchangeably but recently, I've being seeing an increase in the visibility of posters that distinguish the two.

So what's the difference between liberal and left? Is it the same difference as liberalism and leftism? Also, what's neoliberal?
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,798
Neoliberalism is economic liberalism, as in free-market capitalism, deregulation, free trade, etc.
 

corasaur

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,988
In the average face-to-face conversation liberal and left are still synonyms.

online some socialists use "leftist' to specifcially mean "want to work on getting rid of capitalism" and use "liberal" for people left of center who are still capitalists. i'm assuming those people still use those words IRL but i haven't met any of them yet.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,386
From what I understand liberal means a person who falls left from center on the political spectrum, whereas the left refers to those who are solid left/solid liberals meaning they are beyond moderate left.

Liberalism is an ideology rooted in individual freedoms and participation in a limited government, traditionally compatible with systems like democracy and capitalism. Leftism is what people usually mean when they misuse the word liberalism, and that applies to a general left-wing ideology.

Occasionally, as some people have referred to in this thread, the left refers to those at ends with neoliberal/capitalist systems (as is the US today), wanting it to be replaced with a system similar to European Democratic Socialism (which is very left Capitalism) or actual Socialism.

Hope this helped.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
From Wikipedia:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles.

The bolded is super imporant.

It's open to interpration. The words 'liberty' and 'equality' are super hard to define.

For example, what do people mean when they say 'freedom'? And normally, that can be answered by asking 'freedom from what?'.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Assuming we're using the US definition of Liberal and as far as actual content/character? Little difference.

Liberals and Leftists are both about the equitable management of an unjust system.

"Leftism" is supposed to be about a political struggle for a clean break from that unjust system, but instead most Leftists are just "Left of Capital" and any revolutionary rhetoric is just window dressing for their reformist politics.

Much of the binding forces between the two is their reformist position and their patriarchal "the world would be a better place if you dumbasses just learned/did what you were told".
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,428
It's an (North) American thing. Socialists call themselves leftist because of socoalism's negative connotations. This distinguishes them from liberals (which is another way of saying leftist) that believe in capitalism.

In the rest of the world, liberal means free-marketeer (usually centrist, but can be right wing too).
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,386
What does classical liberal mean? I've seen people use that to refer to folks like Jordan Peterson.
Haven't listened to any Peterson, but I would assume he is referring to maximized individual freedom both political and economically, as well as very limited government. Classical liberalism would refer to the philosophy America was founded on, which wanted to grant a larger voice politically to aristocrats and white property owners, therefore greatly limiting the scope of a centralized government system like the British monarchy, them instead resorting to a greater emphasis on States' rights, serving as the foundation for the creation of Federalism, which is the shared power between a national government and multiple state governments. I would assume he's pro-states' rights in this regard.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
yeah liberalism is the current ruling system, the status quo, the center (free market, individualism. social rights serve profit motives and if not, don't exist at all)

the left wants to progress to a new system, the right reacts to this by wanting to return to conservative liberalism, pre-liberalism
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
What does classical liberal mean? I've seen people use that to refer to folks like Jordan Peterson.
In theory it means someone who subscribes to Liberalism as an ideology who aren't necessarily liberal as it's colloquially used in contemporary political discussion. It plays out much differently in practice.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
What does classical liberal mean? I've seen people use that to refer to folks like Jordan Peterson.

They tend to prioritise 'freedom (of white men) from the government' over anything else that may hamper an individual's freedom, such as lack of social mobility and economic injustice. Therefore you will see them argue for a 'small government' and the like a lot:



(See above).

For some reason, they also like referring to people like Thomas Jefferson a lot as if he is some kind of guiding light.

Thomas Jefferson being someone who owned 600 slaves.

In contrast to this, I think that governments exist to promote freedom, and that social welfare programs are absolutely critical in allowing everyone to seek the opportunities they wish and be free to live the lives that they want. I, for example, don't consider wealthy people being taxed to fund these programs 'attacks on freedom', whereas a self-identified classical liberal might.

Considering that in democracies it is (in theory) much easier to hold governments accountable than corporations, I don't mind them being large.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
yeah liberalism is the current ruling system, the status quo, the center

the left wants to progress to a new system, the right reacts to this by wanting to return to conservative liberalism, pre-liberalism
You're just talking about economics here, right?

Because I've yet to meet a self-described "liberal" who is happy with the status quo regarding social issues.

As far as I can tell, "leftist" is just another word for "socialist."
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,386
Liberals are at the center of the center.
If you want to define liberal in terms of liberalism then I can see this argument, but considering the colloquial usage of liberal at least in American politics, it does refer to the general left side of the spectrum, often held opposite to conservative, i.e. general right.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
They tend to prioritise 'freedom (of white men) from the government' over anything else that may hamper an individual's freedom, such as lack of social mobility and economic injustice. Therefore you will see them argue for a 'small government' and the like a lot:



(See above).

For some reason, they also like referring to people like Thomas Jefferson a lot as if he is some kind of guiding light.

Thomas Jefferson being someone who owned 600 slaves.

In contrast to this, I think that governments exist to promote freedom, and that social welfare programs are absolutely critical in allowing everyone to seek the opportunities they wish and be free to live the lives that they want. I, for example, don't consider wealthy people being taxed to fund these programs 'attacks on freedom', whereas a self-identified classical liberal might.

Considering that in democracies it is (in theory) much easier to hold governments accountable than corporations, I don't mind them being large.

conservatives (small C) believe that the market is where Liberal values are upheld and the government through regulation can be an impediment to the market and therefore liberal values.
 

Deleted member 9986

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Oct 27, 2017
1,248
You're just talking about economics here, right?

Because I've yet to meet a self-described "liberal" who is happy with the status quo regarding social issues.

As far as I can tell, "leftist" is just another word for "socialist."
That liberalism rules today does not mean that they are content with all conditions that are in place. You can be captain of the team but still have things not going your way yet. In this case it is the left-overs of conservative ethics (feudal era) colliding with liberal capitalism (post-feudal).
It's stupid to have capitalism and be racist for example , there is money to be made from all races. The only reason to be racist is in case of emergency, like if your power or economic system is threatened.
 

bricewgilbert

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
868
WA, USA
If you want to define liberal in terms of liberalism then I can see this argument, but considering the colloquial usage of liberal at least in American politics, it does refer to the general left side of the spectrum, often held opposite to conservative, i.e. general right.

Sure but it's an extremely harmful duality. The difference in beliefs and policies among members of the entire liberal umbrella is pretty big. So much so that it's not useful as is demonstrated by pretty much every political thread on this website and the supposed need to have the question answered in the form of this thread.
 

Buzzman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,549
"I have never really understood exactly what a 'liberal' is, since I have heard 'liberals' express every conceivable opinion on every conceivable subject. As far as I can tell, you have the extreme right, who are fascist racist capitalist dogs like Ronald Reagan, who come right out and let you know where they're coming from. And on the opposite end, you have the left, who are supposed to be committed to justice, equality, and human rights. And somewhere between those two points is the liberal.

As far as I'm concerned, 'liberal' is the most meaningless word in the dictionary. History has shown me that as long as some white middle-class people can live high on the hog, take vacations to Europe, send their children to private schools, and reap the benefits of their white skin privilege, then they are 'liberal'. But when times get hard and money gets tight, they pull off that liberal mask and you think you're talking to Adolf Hitler. They feel sorry for the so-called underprivileged just as long as they can maintain their own privileges."
-Assata Shakur, copkiller
 

EkStatiC

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,243
Greece
If you want to define liberal in terms of liberalism then I can see this argument, but considering the colloquial usage of liberal at least in American politics, it does refer to the general left side of the spectrum, often held opposite to conservative, i.e. general right.
Globally, a liberal considered to be more to the right of the center of the political spectrum. Usually we say that are to the center until they say or do something and move them accordingly.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,594
Honestly it depends on the person calling them that. So often people use it as a means to insult or dismiss another's point of view to the point that ther terms have lost a lot of their meaning in general.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I hate everything about this conversations because when it comes down to the specific the difference is anything from the left being social democrats to straight commies to everything in between, when, in reality, the left right divide was originally created as a relative one of those in favor of monarchy and those in favor of democracy(The leftists from the french meeting were actually in favor of constitutional monarchy). It was not about communism.

No, this entire stupid debate is just a bunch of no true scottsman us vs them nonsense where people just assume the establishment is ALWAYS out to get them even in the face of evidence that that's not what they're doing on a particular issue, labeling anything they don't like as the neoliberal centrist order which will destroy the world.

Honestly it depends on the person calling them that. So often people use it as a means to insult or dismiss another's point of view to the point that ther terms have lost a lot of their meaning in general.
Yup.
 

Deleted member 6230

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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Another thing about classical liberals like Jordan Petersons and Sam Harris of the world is they hardcore subscribe to the so called "Market Place of Ideas" that is all idea should be allowed to enter discourse and what should determine the merit of this ideas is their validity and arguments. The free speech warriors basically. Obviously this falls apart in practice for many reasons. For one you risk spreading propaganda out of naivety (or malice). Another is a person may claim to be a free speech absolutist but there's always going to certain ideas they aren't willing to put up with. For example Jordan Peterson will never have a debate with a socialist and Sam Harris is gonna dodge people like Tanahesi Coates
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
It's helpful to think of it with a historical perspective. Liberals emerged in opposition to feudalism, mercantilism, and monarchism. They believed that all men are created equal and thus should have equality before the law. Life, liberty, property etc. This obviously went hand in hand with capitalism since it meant anyone (in theory) could own property, and not just aristocrats, and become rich through their own "hard work" without government interference. Liberals believe in constitutional limited representative democracies and capitalism.

In the US, liberalism split into "liberalism" and "conservatism", with "liberalism" being a proactive welfare state and "conservatism" being laissez-faire. This has further changed to the point where conservatives are starting to openly embrace fascism.

"Leftism" is a broad term covering a variety of anticapitalist movements, but its core principles relate to egalitarianism, destroying hierarchies, radical change, etc. Socialism developed out of the struggle between owners and workers within capitalism. Leftists want to upend capitalism and all other systems of oppression in general.

In essence, liberals were once revolutionary but are now the status quo, with the exception of the fascist wave sweeping the world. Leftists are people who want to go further beyond liberalism because they see it as insufficient to create a truly egalitarian world.
 

Deleted member 15440

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Oct 27, 2017
4,191
It's an (North) American thing. Socialists call themselves leftist because of socoalism's negative connotations. This distinguishes them from liberals (which is another way of saying leftist) that believe in capitalism.

In the rest of the world, liberal means free-marketeer (usually centrist, but can be right wing too).
it's not just NA and leftist is used as a more all-encompassing term to include ideologies like left libertarians, communists, and anarchists as well as socialists
 

Woolley

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,422
In the real world US left and liberal mean pretty much the same thing.

Online left means socialist.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
It's helpful to think of it with a historical perspective. Liberals emerged in opposition to feudalism, mercantilism, and monarchism. They believed that all men are created equal and thus should have equality before the law. Life, liberty, property etc. This obviously went hand in hand with capitalism since it meant anyone (in theory) could own property, and not just aristocrats, and become rich through their own "hard work" without government interference. Liberals believe in constitutional limited representative democracies and capitalism.

In the US, liberalism split into "liberalism" and "conservatism", with "liberalism" being a proactive welfare state and "conservatism" being laissez-faire. This has further changed to the point where conservatives are starting to openly embrace fascism.

"Leftism" is a broad term covering a variety of anticapitalist movements, but its core principles relate to egalitarianism, destroying hierarchies, radical change, etc. Socialism developed out of the struggle between owners and workers within capitalism. Leftists want to upend capitalism and all other systems of oppression in general.

In essence, liberals were once revolutionary but are now the status quo, with the exception of the fascist wave sweeping the world. Leftists are people who want to go further beyond liberalism because they see it as insufficient to create a truly egalitarian world.

Wrap it up, we're done here.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,502
Dallas, TX
It's vague and difficult to draw a hard line, but I would say liberalism is what you would typically think of as the Democratic Party. It supports a large welfare state and regulatory structure on top of a capitalist economic system, but doesn't have an issue with that system as a whole, provided enough tweaks are allowed. Leftists are more opposed to the whole thing, questioning way more basic concepts of private property, profit motives, the existence of corporations, etc.

Liberalism is essentially the idea that corporations should go on doing their thing, so long as it's in accordance with regulations and they pay taxes to support public services and redistributive payments to the poor. Leftists would more argue that privately held corporations are too powerful, regardless of any tax and regulation scheme, and that we should be moving towards putting them into public ownership. Or, say, Obamacare is liberal — give people money to buy their own insurance, with private companies able to compete for those dollars — versus a more leftist single-payer solution where private health insurance is abolished entirely in favor of direct government provision.
 

Deleted member 22490

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Oct 28, 2017
9,237
It's helpful to think of it with a historical perspective. Liberals emerged in opposition to feudalism, mercantilism, and monarchism. They believed that all men are created equal and thus should have equality before the law. Life, liberty, property etc. This obviously went hand in hand with capitalism since it meant anyone (in theory) could own property, and not just aristocrats, and become rich through their own "hard work" without government interference. Liberals believe in constitutional limited representative democracies and capitalism.

In the US, liberalism split into "liberalism" and "conservatism", with "liberalism" being a proactive welfare state and "conservatism" being laissez-faire. This has further changed to the point where conservatives are starting to openly embrace fascism.

"Leftism" is a broad term covering a variety of anticapitalist movements, but its core principles relate to egalitarianism, destroying hierarchies, radical change, etc. Socialism developed out of the struggle between owners and workers within capitalism. Leftists want to upend capitalism and all other systems of oppression in general.

In essence, liberals were once revolutionary but are now the status quo, with the exception of the fascist wave sweeping the world. Leftists are people who want to go further beyond liberalism because they see it as insufficient to create a truly egalitarian world.
Sphagnum with the good take as always
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
i tend to think of liberalism as a mask of acceptance and wokeness for capitalism to put on, when capitalism itself is simply a ravenous maw that will grind the lower classes into soylent regardless of their ethnicity/gender/orientation.

modern liberalism is only useful as an ideology to fight bigotry in the most base-level "representation in media" and "cops playing basketball with black kids" type of sense. it's "thou shalt not be rude". if the bigotry is systemic, and economically benefits entrenched industry like the prison system, good luck fighting it without more concrete moral politics.
 

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
From my experience the distinction is capitalism. Taming it is liberals goal, replacing it is the lefts.
 

Senator Rains

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,340
Economically, Liberals believe capitalism to be flawed but can work and be improved.
Leftists believe capitalism is inherently wrong and want it gone, replaced by social democracy, socialism, or communism.

Socially, they're pretty much the same.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,428
it's not just NA and leftist is used as a more all-encompassing term to include ideologies like left libertarians, communists, and anarchists as well as socialists

I meant the line between liberalism and leftist being blurry is an NA thing. In the rest of the world, liberals and leftists are two completely different things. In the US, leftists are just "extreme liberals".
 

Deleted member 15440

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Oct 27, 2017
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I meant the line between liberalism and leftist being blurry is an NA thing. In the rest of the world, liberals and leftists are two completely different things. In the US, leftists are just "extreme liberals".
it only seems that way because leftists in other countries have their own parliamentary parties. in america the only electoral vehicle for non-reactionary politics is the democratic party, which is why you see leftists sometimes trying to work through a liberal organization to try and improve things.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,386
Globally, a liberal considered to be more to the right of the center of the political spectrum. Usually we say that are to the center until they say or do something and move them accordingly.
A global usage throws the American perspective right out the window, I'm just going off what I see after being subject to American politics for my life and education. But even terms like "left" hold different meanings when comparing US politics to other countries.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Liberals are people who think individuals can be free whilst still having a socioeconomic system based around exploitation.

They're not bad and society is kind of alright at the moment, but they'll probably be on the wrong side of history.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
If you are a leftist in the US or most Western allies you probably are a liberal in all but the psychic realm of Marxism/anarchism/whatever you believe would be best. That's okay, everyone has to make a living and most of us work normal jobs, vote, own retirement investments, etc. because that's what you do to survive. But generally it's shorthand for "I am to the left of most Democrats," and not "I am a communist," like it would mean elsewhere.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Liberals believe in incrementalism, and working with traditional apparatuses from business to political parties, leftism/the far left operates further left from the mainstream covering the socialist, communist and anarchist categories. The Left trends to have vastly larger ideas that they think can be pushed through with brute force, yet a downside to this is since they pivot away from authority structures in politics, like political parties, they don't have the resources to do this or continuum of knowledge like liberals do. Their movement comes in bursts, then going dark again reforming itself for the next round years down the line. Overall both groups have more in common in general in how they want to save the world but there are huge rifts on how to achieve that.
 
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Deleted member 22490

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Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Economically, Liberals believe capitalism to be flawed but can work and be improved.
Leftists believe capitalism is inherently wrong and want it gone, replaced by social democracy, socialism, or communism.

Socially, they're pretty much the same.
I would say that a lot of social goals line up, however leftists also recognize how economics can affect people socially. There's a popular saying among leftists: you can't have economic justice without social justice and you can't have social justice without economic justice.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Neoliberalism is economic liberalism, as in free-market capitalism, deregulation, free trade, etc.
This is completely incorrect. Neoliberalism is the Reagan/Thatcher/Greenspan lassez-faire shit from the '80s that got utterly discredited with the '08 crash. The Lassez-Faire stuff is not part of the economic or liberal mainstream.
What does classical liberal mean? I've seen people use that to refer to folks like Jordan Peterson.
It's libertarian coded language for "I'm both a libertarian and a douchebag."
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I would say that a lot of social goals line up, however leftists also recognize how economics can affect people socially. There's a popular saying among leftists: you can't have economic justice without social justice and you can't have social justice without economic justice.

That's not exclusive to Leftism. Intersectionality between social justice and economics is a common opinion supported by liberals.
 

Deleted member 6230

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That's not exclusive to Leftism. Intersectionality between social justice and economics is a common opinion supported by liberals.
Anecdotal but I met plenty of self described liberals who are pro social justice but don't really see it for the economic part of delivering on that. For example a lot of those same peopl would agree that black lives matter, police brutality is bad and will list off reforms to that institution but they would completely fall apart when you start talking about reparations.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Anecdotal but I met plenty of self described liberals who are pro social justice but don't really see it for the economic part of delivering on that. For example a lot of those same peopl would agree that black lives matter, police brutality is bad and will list off reforms to that institution but they would completely fall apart when you start talking about reparations.
Thank you for reminding me about this, I meant to post it up eventually.

This is a massive perception problem driven by the fact that middle-class white people mostly interact with middle-class black people and because Wealth and Income are not synonymous.