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NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
That belief would indicate that some people are innately civil, while others need to have civility taught to — or imposed upon — them. Johnson says this is part of the underlying rationale for the enslavement of Africans imported into America and the genocide of Native peoples.

"People of color don't get to orchestrate the terms of civility," she explains. "Instead, we're always responding to what civility is supposed to be."

So the relationship between alleged civilizers and the people they're "gifting" with civility, Johnson points out, is "inherently undemocratic, unequal and racist." (Think of Native American children being forcibly removed from their homes and placed in so-called Indian boarding schools or Mexican children being punished for speaking Spanish in schools or African-Americans being forced to listen to sermons that preached that servants should obey their masters, etc.)

And so, pushing back against the status quo will be seen as inherently uncivil by the people who want to maintain it. And there are always higher standards expected of those people pushing back.

Rutgers professor Brittney Cooper writes about white reaction to black anger in her book Eloquent Rage: A Black Feminist Discovers Her Superpower. Since the Black Lives Matter movement blossomed, Cooper says, the mere fact that blacks are protesting affects how white society sees those protests.

"Black anger, black rage, black distress over injustice is seen as, one, unreasonable and outsized; and, two, as a thing that must be neutralized and contained quickly." Cooper says this often takes the form of whites "preaching at black people about how they're bad and how they're ungrateful for being angry."

Former President Bill Clinton illustrated this during a Philadelphia campaign event for his wife, Hillary, in 2016.

As he talked about the ways in which the criminal justice system has evolved in recent years, his recitation was challenged by Black Lives Matter activists. "I listened to them," he told the Hillary Clinton supporters, "and they don't wanna listen to me."

He turned to his challengers and shook his finger at them: "You will never learn anything when you're talking." He was, in effect, telling them they were being uncivil.
\

"The idea that these athletes were addressing themselves to a burning political issue — that in and of itself made people mad," Kennedy says.

Kaepernick and other athletes who have chosen to protest social issues are angering people who believe they have strayed from their appointed place as athletes, Kennedy argues. These people want a ballgame, not a lecture — even a silent one.

But, Kennedy adds, by kneeling silently, Kaepernick was acting in the same dignified way civil rights demonstrators did in the 1960s: Students sitting quietly at lunchroom counters until they were dragged away, matrons shoved into police wagons, children being fire-hosed: All were quietly resisting what they believed was a societal wrong.

This is a good fucking read. And as we've seen, civility is also used against women, the LGBT, non-Christians, etc.

Cry civility if old.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
And so, pushing back against the status quo will be seen as inherently uncivil by the people who want to maintain it. And there are always higher standards expected of those people pushing back

This is the crux of the matter as we see over and over again.

BLM protest = "What if someone's grandmother needs an ambulance? "

Kaep takes a knee = "He's disrespecting the flag!"

Kids protesting to raise awareness of climate change = "Why are they missing a school day? Wouldn't have happened back in my day!"

Ilhan Omar calls out lobbyists for an Apartheid state = "She needs to watch her tone and be nicer about war crimes"

White supremacists chanting about blood and soil = "Well we have free speech so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

It's about making sure we only "protest" when are out of sight and earshot so we can be easily ignored and they use racist ideas to do it.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,951
Terana
I hate to Godwin so early, but that meek Hitler cartoon on civility is the gods honest truth.

DgF1FEfVQAA23sK.jpg:large
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,484
Whats extra frusrating is the bar for civility is at "don't talk about shit", just even discussing stuff is seen as uncivil.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,655
My favorite is, "let's keep politics out of video games" or insert whatever hobby. It screams "I don't want to be bothered with the fact that someone who is different than me deserves to be treated or represented equally".
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,876
It never matters what is being said for these people. As long as you present yourself in a particular swagger they will be willing to twist blatantly hateful rhetoric into something tame because nobody wants to admit they think the local asshole is a charming fellow.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,159
Who's the comedian that reverses the scenario in a discussion and the rational person is screaming and fussing, and sounds "stupid". While the racist/homophobe is eloquent and polite. Then talks about how speaking articulately and calmly makes you look like the good guy.

Edit: I think it was Patton Oswalt. But I can't find it. It's not wrong though. We lose credibility, voice and power when we act like that. People are less likely to listen.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
Whites on Twitter were like this just the other day over Russell Westbrook being angry over what happened to him
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,484
Who's the comedian that reverses the scenario in a discussion and the rational person is screaming and fussing, and sounds "stupid". While the racist/homophobe is eloquent and polite. Then talks about how speaking articulately and calmly makes you look like the good guy.

Edit: I think it was Patton Oswalt. But I can't find it. It's not wrong though. We lose credibility, voice and power when we act like that. People are less likely to listen.
Who is talking about screaming and fussing? And why jump instantly to that?

We are talking about the simple act of bringing up issues is counted as a breach of civility
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,159
Who is talking about screaming and fussing? And why jump instantly to that?

We are talking about the simple act of bringing up issues is counted as a breach of civility
I feel like I'm being taken out of context here. I don't mean that in the literal sense. But behaving in ways that is considered "uncouth". Do you know what I'm saying? I'm saying it's much easier to effect change when you use the existing rules/expectations to your favor. Then trying to fight the current. I guess?
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,484
I feel like I'm being taken out of context here. I don't mean that in the literal sense. But behaving in ways that is considered "uncouth". Do you know what I'm saying? I'm saying it's much easier to effect change when you use the existing rules/expectations to your favor. Then trying to fight the current. I guess?
What is uncouth? cause listening to some people "uncouth" is kneeling quietly off to the side. "Uncouth" is asking a cop for their ID . "Uncouth" is daring to say "This isn't right".

Now who gets to decide "uncouth"?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
I feel like I'm being taken out of context here. I don't mean that in the literal sense. But behaving in ways that is considered "uncouth". Do you know what I'm saying? I'm saying it's much easier to effect change when you use the existing rules/expectations to your favor. Then trying to fight the current. I guess?

It doesn't matter how polite or timid you are, you will always be uncouth if you are being progressive. It will always be met with "Well I agree with you but you know, now is not the appropriate time for this discussion"

That's why you have to kick down the door and start pissing over the living room, they will always ignore you otherwise.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,159
It's satire, it's not meant to be taken literally. It's what the far right pretends they're doing and they fool themselves into thinking that's what it looks like.
I get that. That's the greatest irony I'm trying to point out though. Is it actually does reflect that like that even rationale people. When I was younger so many people checked out of conversations. Said I was exhausting etc. Becuase of always pressing the issues, voicing frustration etc. Around these issues. It didn't get me anywhere. Being calm, empathetic and just talking to people was what made the difference. Not pointing out why their thoughts were awful and they were wrong. That's all I'm saying.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,159
It doesn't matter how polite or timid you are, you will always be uncouth if you are being progressive. It will always be met with "Well I agree with you but you know, now is not the appropriate time for this discussion"

That's why you have to kick down the door and start pissing over the living room, they will always ignore you otherwise.
I personally disagree. But that's ok. There's more than one way to skin a cat. (I really don't understand the eytmology of that term btw).
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The reason why it works is because liberals have bought into the lie that the "noble path" is always the right one. Look at how the Civil Rights movement is treated as. Look at how conservatives created a fantasy that cleansed the Civil Rights Movement of it's uncomfortable truths. Look at how they choose to show any victory as a unity and understanding of both sides rather than the suppressed fighting tooth and nail for every right. The left has fallen for this lie hook line and sinker and will follow the rigged rules to the letter until the bitter end thinking it is the noble "captain going down with the ship".

It pisses me off so much.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
I personally disagree. But that's ok. There's more than one way to skin a cat. (I really don't understand the eytmology of that term btw).

What disenfranchised or oppressed group ever managed to get equal rights without pissing off those on power?

Civil Rights movement in the US didn't.

Anti-Apartheid campaigners didn't.

Suffragettes didn't get women the vote by being polite.

You can disagree but you'd still be wrong.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,036
I do wonder if a left wing politician that is uncivil would succeed? Like I would be a terrible politician because I don't think I could hold my tongue and hold back from roasting right wingers.

Man, I would be in congress calling out these racist wannabe nazi republicans exactly that to their face. I would call them fake ass christians. etc etc.

Could somebody succeed on the left just have zero censorship towards the right? Like I get that the left is held to a much higher standard than the right, but come on, the civility shit is not working. Start telling it like it is. Don't tip toe around these fuckers feelings anymore. Don't let them play fucking victim when they are called out.

If they get pissed, their a bunch triggered snowflake nazi cuntwads.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Could somebody succeed on the left just have zero censorship towards the right? Like I get that the left is held to a much higher standard than the right, but come on, the civility shit is not working. Start telling it like it is. Don't tip toe around these fuckers feelings anymore.

If they get pissed, their a bunch triggered snowflake nazi cuntwads.
Ilhan Omar and AOC are the closest you'll get to this currently. They go in hard for politicians but hold back by internet standards.

And yeah they get censured and finger-waggled a lot even by their "teammates". This is a case of civility being used as a cudgel to silence dissent.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,928
It's as I always say: people on the left and right know that unpending the status quo of white supremacy is going to require actual work to the benefit of someone other than themselves. No one wants to put in that work. No one wants to take responsibility for the now. Easy way to continue kicking the can down the road is to continuously claim there's a magical way to solve these problems while conveniently neglecting the question of a real-world working example, thus continuously chastising minorities for never- in the 400+ years white supremacy has been a thing- utilizing this obviously blatant solution to all of our racial ills and putting the blame on us for what is ultimately white apathy and delusion.

"There's an island, Snitter."
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
This is the crux of the matter as we see over and over again.

BLM protest = "What if someone's grandmother needs an ambulance? "

Kaep takes a knee = "He's disrespecting the flag!"

Kids protesting to raise awareness of climate change = "Why are they missing a school day? Wouldn't have happened back in my day!"

Ilhan Omar calls out lobbyists for an Apartheid state = "She needs to watch her tone and be nicer about war crimes"

White supremacists chanting about blood and soil = "Well we have free speech so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

It's about making sure we only "protest" when are out of sight and earshot so we can be easily ignored and they use racist ideas to do it.
This is moderates and (some) white liberals in a nutshell.
 

Deleted member 31199

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
1,288
Using that one example the OP mentioned, I feel that once 2000 came and went, so did Bill Clinton's use. Maybe if Gore used him during the 2000 election, it would be different but who knows.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,655
It's as I always say: people on the left and right know that unpending the status quo of white supremacy is going to require actual work to the benefit of someone other than themselves. No one wants to put in that work. No one wants to take responsibility for the now. Easy way to continue kicking the can down the road is to continuously claim there's a magical way to solve these problems while conveniently neglecting the question of a real-world working example, thus continuously chastising minorities for never- in the 400+ years white supremacy has been a thing- utilizing this obviously blatant solution to all of our racial ills and putting the blame on us for what is ultimately white apathy and delusion.

"There's an island, Snitter."
The bold is so true but I also think it's that they don't want to give up their advantage over everyone else, that means it'd be an even playing field and they don't want that especially when it means their children and so on would love the advantage. It's very simple, who would give up an advantage with anything? It's like the quote, "When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression."
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,310
I think people like Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson etc. Are a key of their success yes. They say dumb shit. But present it well.

The point is flying past your head at lightspeed.

We can whisper our injustices.

We can write them on a sheet of paper and pass them over to you.

We can write them in cursive in a greeting card and send them in the mail.

The fact of the matter is White America has no interest in fixing or addressing the concerns of Black Americans. It's been established for over 400 years.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,928
The bold is so true but I also think it's that they don't want to give up their advantage over everyone else, that means it'd be an even playing field and they don't want that especially when it means their children and so on would love the advantage. It's very simple, who would give up an advantage with anything? It's like the quote, "When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Tim Wise has an interesting answer to the question in that white supremacy also harms white folks.

When you're expecting a specific plan for life and things go the other way, stress, addiction, and depression kick in far more than it does for people who already understand life is not a meritocracy. When you think all of the dangerous enemies are urban or abroad, you're unequipped to handle the mass shootings that continuously happen in your own neighborhoods. When you insist that social welfare is a nefarious plan to give minorities a free ride, you willingly strip away your own financial security and dignity and find yourself with fuck all to your name.

Like toxic masculinity, white supremacy also fucks up the demographic it's supposed to position at the top.
 

Conal

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,868
In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent has to have a conscience.
- Stokely Carmichael

 
OP
OP
NoName999

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Aztechonology, you're the prime example of using civility as a cudgel when you think that Ben "Talks over and interrupts everyone" Shapiro is the prime example of respectability.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Thank you so much for this article. It really is a mindset built on and maintained by straight white Christian male supremacy. Implicitly, subconsciously all of our country knows that those who are disenfranchised have a right to be even more vicious in regards to seeking simple equality. We have the right to be loud and unapolagetic and full of rage. We have the right to push even harder. That fear of acknowledging how just many disenfranchised groups are entitled to be furious is an undercurrent with this kind of rhetoric. When society reacts to the slightest protest by BLM it's basically an entire culture leaping in fear at the shadow of the true weight of inequality. It needs to pretend that "civility" is the ultimate good to shut us up and delay as much as it can the actual shit storm that's been built from the abuse of the marginalized since colonists first set foot on US soil.
 

sooperkool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,159
Who's the comedian that reverses the scenario in a discussion and the rational person is screaming and fussing, and sounds "stupid". While the racist/homophobe is eloquent and polite. Then talks about how speaking articulately and calmly makes you look like the good guy.

Edit: I think it was Patton Oswalt. But I can't find it. It's not wrong though. We lose credibility, voice and power when we act like that. People are less likely to listen.

They won't listen either way. This is the error that you make. People think that there is some o=sort of key or technique to getting these people to understand. The won't because it's not in their heart to do so, they won't because they like the position they're in and don't want to lose it.

This isn't a goddmn video game, there isn't some pattern that you can run or some cheat code that wil bring these people over to our side. The only time it will happen is when there is more pain of some kind for them to experience if they don't.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
I get that. That's the greatest irony I'm trying to point out though. Is it actually does reflect that like that even rationale people. When I was younger so many people checked out of conversations. Said I was exhausting etc. Becuase of always pressing the issues, voicing frustration etc. Around these issues. It didn't get me anywhere. Being calm, empathetic and just talking to people was what made the difference. Not pointing out why their thoughts were awful and they were wrong. That's all I'm saying.
MLK was shot and killed in response to being one of those disenfranchised people who was as polite and eloquent as possible. The most patient and reasonable demonstrations during the civil rights era were admonished by an overwhelming amount of white people as being uncivil. Homosexual and Trans people had to be angry and violent to spur on a much needed change in the perception of LGBTQ+ rights. There's no perfect way to affect change because it's not actually about the delivery, it's about the message. Bandying about this "you catch more flies with honey" mindset is ludicrous because it breaks down in the face of bigotry because bigotry isn't a reaction to how nice or gentle marginalized people are. It's not actually a reaction to anything. Bigotry is just about hate. There is no foundation that is chipped away at simply by saying the right words. If there were the tomes and tomes of books making the case for equality would have ended inequality a long time ago.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,655
Tim Wise has an interesting answer to the question in that white supremacy also harms white folks.

When you're expecting a specific plan for life and things go the other way, stress, addiction, and depression kick in far more than it does for people who already understand life is not a meritocracy. When you think all of the dangerous enemies are urban or abroad, you're unequipped to handle the mass shootings that continuously happen in your own neighborhoods. When you insist that social welfare is a nefarious plan to give minorities a free ride, you willingly strip away your own financial security and dignity and find yourself with fuck all to your name.

Like toxic masculinity, white supremacy also fucks up the demographic it's supposed to position at the top.
Yup, makes sense and you see it frequently. Then you also see how white supremacy blinds them from how the wealthy are truly manipulating their lives for the worse. I don't think we as a species can ever achieve greatness or tackle the issues that will lead to our extinction until white people overcome racism and realize white supremacy is a bane not boon in the long run.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Yup, makes sense and you see it frequently. Then you also see how white supremacy blinds them from how the wealthy are truly manipulating their lives for the worse. I don't think we as a species can ever achieve greatness or tackle the issues that will lead to our extinction until white people overcome racism and realize white supremacy is a bane not boon in the long run.
I feel the exact same. There are so many fundamental aspects of progressing as a race that are tied to ending inequality and bigotry on a massive scale or at the very least getting people invested in the current status quo out of powerful and influential positions near completely. Energy, science, education, health, food, money, the environment, international relations and policy, etc. all have an undercurrent where slavish devotion to the ideals of the supremacy of the privileged over the marginalized prevents actual progress within those arenas. Even well meaning people are desperate to pretend otherwise but they're being naive. It's a consistent pattern that a very large sect of humanity will sabotage themselves and people they love if it means that the people they deem as "inferior" or "undesirable" fall with them.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
Don't perpetuate hate = Don't fight back.
"Hey buddy, if I protested at my job I'd be fired. Theres a time and place for protests."
"which is where i don't have to see, or hear it"
I get that. That's the greatest irony I'm trying to point out though. Is it actually does reflect that like that even rationale people. When I was younger so many people checked out of conversations. Said I was exhausting etc. Becuase of always pressing the issues, voicing frustration etc. Around these issues. It didn't get me anywhere. Being calm, empathetic and just talking to people was what made the difference. Not pointing out why their thoughts were awful and they were wrong. That's all I'm saying.
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