no post the one page where Spidey gets mad at Cap for knowing about Venom Flash.
He hits Cap so hard he goes flying
I disagree, and pretty strongly.Raimi Spider-Man is overrated. Those movies were okay for their time but their nowhere near as good as the superhero films of today. A relic of the past.
I'm not sure if you're specifically talking about my post. But I changed that part because you're right, and it didn't really explain what I meant very well.
I'm saying this fight is gonna be a knock down drag out long exhausting fight. Neither one is gonna want to give up, they'll both have their 2nd winds and third winds.... but in the end MCU cap is gonna be getting back up for 8th,9th,10th wind. And in my option Rami's spider man, tobi's Peter Parker, just doesn't have it in him.
If Raimi Spidey wanted to kill Cap he's not getting another chance to get back up. This isn't a matter of will. Besides lifting up the hammer there isn't a physical feat that Cap can do that Raimi Spidey can't. Can't say the same for Cap when it comes to comparing to what Spider-Man can do.
It really is a wash. Pound for pound Cap is outmatched. The moment he throws his shield it's getting webbed out of commission and Raimi Spidey has his way with him.
I probably could've elaborated a bit more where I said "I can't see Raimi Spiderman losing".I love this analysis. I agree 100%. But I think you forgot one crucial aspect: strength of character. While theyre both capable of going hard in the paint, I think that due to sheer will power cap wins.
I think rami man wins the fight at first, but imagine the classic movie scenario where someone is down but not out, has a flash back memory moment of inspiration second wind.
In a fight between MCU Cap and Rami's spider man this could go back and forth for sometime. But in the end MCU Cap wins out because cap never gives up. Where as, in my opinion, Rami's Spider-Man just doesn't have it in him. Deep down he's a punk... and Cap deep down is the embodiment of sheer will power.
In the end it's all about mindset:
"I can do this all day" vs my life is so stressful.
Cap stopped a helicopter, and nobody is gonna argue that trains are cooler than helicopters because trains can't even fly so what are you even trying to say.Spidey stopped a train. And Spidey can climb walls and shoot web, my money is on Spidey.
He needs the grip strength to actually hold on to the webbing. It's a display of durability and strength.Raimi Spiderman stopping a Train isn't really a feat of Strength as much as it's a feat of Durability. Spidey didn't just stand in front of it and put his arms out and absorb the force, bringing the train to a stop. And when he tries to use his legs, not only does he not slow the train down at all but he's shown clutching his knee as he was hurt by the process, even if minimally.
The technique he uses to stop the train relies far more on the tensile strength of the webbing and his bodies ability to withstand being stretched than a use of strength. The only actual strength he's utilizing there is grip strength. That's not to say that he's not strong, just that the feat isn't really one that measures strength. The way the scene is shown, Spidey doesn't actually ever even have a chance to engage his strength before his upper body is pulled to a point where he can't.
By contrast Cap's chopper scene, while similar, actually does showcase Cap's strength because he grabs both the chopper and the railing with his arms in flexion and is able to keep that flex in one arm while eventually pulling the chopper back closer. This doesn't mean that Cap's stronger but that the helicopter scene is one that does actually showcase a feat of strength.
So it's a case where using those particular scenes 1:1 to compare strength isn't great.
A more relevant comparison would be 200 000 N to 15 000 N. Still hugely in favor of Spider-man of course.After looking into the Spider-Man 2 train scene, that's on a totally different level of strength compared to the helicopter Cap scene.
So 3,000 pounds vs 436,515 pounds. Spider-Man is significantly stronger. I take back thinking Cap would win. He would easily get killed in a single punch.
Spidey would stop that chopper in his sleep.Raimi Spiderman stopping a Train isn't really a feat of Strength as much as it's a feat of Durability. Spidey didn't just stand in front of it and put his arms out and absorb the force, bringing the train to a stop. And when he tries to use his legs, not only does he not slow the train down at all but he's shown clutching his knee as he was hurt by the process, even if minimally.
The technique he uses to stop the train relies far more on the tensile strength of the webbing and his bodies ability to withstand being stretched than a use of strength. The only actual strength he's utilizing there is grip strength. That's not to say that he's not strong, just that the feat isn't really one that measures strength. The way the scene is shown, Spidey doesn't actually ever even have a chance to engage his strength before his upper body is pulled to a point where he can't.
By contrast Cap's chopper scene, while similar, actually does showcase Cap's strength because he grabs both the chopper and the railing with his arms in flexion and is able to keep that flex in one arm while eventually pulling the chopper back closer. This doesn't mean that Cap's stronger but that the helicopter scene is one that does actually showcase a feat of strength.
So it's a case where using those particular scenes 1:1 to compare strength isn't great.
Spider senses can't stop him from being juked.Yeah, the Spider-Sense in the Raimi Movies is far more developed and effective then the counterpart in the MCU. Theoretically, MCU Cap should not be able to get a single hit in, even if he is way out of Peters league combat-wise.
A single hit? Raimi's spider-man gets sucker punched/regular punched all the time. Doesn't matter how good the spider sense is when dude can clearly get distracted/tricked. The Super Serum Cap took is at least on par if not better than the Green Goblim formula.Yeah, the Spider-Sense in the Raimi Movies is far more developed and effective then the counterpart in the MCU. Theoretically, MCU Cap should not be able to get a single hit in, even if he is way out of Peters league combat-wise.
Raimi Spider-Man is overrated. Those movies were okay for their time but their nowhere near as good as the superhero films of today. A relic of the past.
Don't forget that Cap is waaaaayyyy faster and stronger than Flash. Now if it were Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, who can dodge gunfire at point-blank range, I agree that Cap wouldn't be able to touch him.Yeah, the Spider-Sense in the Raimi Movies is far more developed and effective then the counterpart in the MCU. Theoretically, MCU Cap should not be able to get a single hit in, even if he is way out of Peters league combat-wise.
A single hit? Raimi's spider-man gets sucker punched/regular punched all the time. Doesn't matter how good the spider sense is when dude can clearly get distracted/tricked. The Super Serum Cap took is at least on par if not better than the Green Goblim formula.
He needs the grip strength to actually hold on to the webbing. It's a display of durability and strength.
Spidey would stop that chopper in his sleep.
Put Cap on that train and those civilians are dead.
Honestly Ock would just toss him off and Cap wouldn't be able to retaliate. That train scene showcases exactly what makes Spider-Man so unique. His overall power set is just too much for Cap.
He's getting his ass beat cause of his lack of experience in fighting. His Spider-senses isn't making his body automatically dodge or deflect attacks. It isn't making him plan his counter attacks.
If it was Spider-Man like, five or ten years after his start, yeah, he'd probably drop MCU cap.
I don't think you're doing your job. I watched my uncle die, and we went after the wrong man. And now you're saying"you had suspicions for two years? Witnesses? Why weren't we told about that?
Everything that Peter had done in the past two years to atone for his great sin was simply an endless pursuit in the face of an existence that had suddenly become terribly, even blindingly unfair.
As someone who mentioned the Spidey Sense, I would say that it's not an invincible defense mechanism, but it is literally a superhuman evasion advantage.Ya'll keep claiming the spider-sense is some invincible defense mechanism but he still gets his ass beat in the movies. Yea sure, you can claim it's for plot purposes cause it's not fun watching your main character wreck shit, but it doesn't change the fact that his spider-sense ain't saving him from getting knocked around.
Case in point below:
He's getting his ass beat cause of his lack of experience in fighting. His Spider-senses isn't making his body automatically dodge or deflect attacks. It isn't making him plan his counter attacks.
If it was Spider-Man like, five or ten years after his start, yeah, he'd probably drop MCU cap.
Head-on collision too. Somebody add up these force vectors.
Cap is obviously incomparably better than Flash, I just used him for the examples of how the Spidey Sense works. Which is basically that he can see things coming from any direction. Cap wouldn't know that Spiderman has a Spidey Sense, so he wouldn't immediately know to exploit it to put Spiderman in a worse position. And even if Cap learned it pretty quick, he'd just be able to get a couple punches in before Spiderman backed off.Flash is a normal ass human being while MCU cap is on the super soldier serum.
The trilogies best example of his spider-senses kicking was that Flash fight in the first movie. The same movie with Green Goblin rocking him.
Cap throws his shield at spidey, he dodges it cause of his senses, but turns out, Cap made him jump in mid air and he's unable to dodge the real attack. Like I said, Spider senses don't make him a better or smarter fighter. He's just way too young and inexperienced to go toe to toe with MCU Cap without taking an L.
I suppose it's kind of an unfair fight seeing as the Raimi movies takes place in the span of two years through three movies while MCU Cap has been in a lot more movies and has gained even more experienced fighting various kinds of enemies.
Yes, all that matters to me.Tobey: Pizza Time.
Cap: Hail Hydra.
Tobey: I missed the part where that's my problem.
Cap: I understood that reference.
Tobey: That's a cute outfit, did your husband give it to you?
Cap: Yeah I know, I know.
Tobey: Stings doesn't it?
Cap: I can do this all day.
Tobey: You'll get your rent when you fix this damn door!
Cap: Language!
If we were comparing memes, tobey is waaaay above cap, with more god-tier memes in 3 movies compared to how many ever cap was in.
Raimi Spiderman stopping a Train isn't really a feat of Strength as much as it's a feat of Durability. Spidey didn't just stand in front of it and put his arms out and absorb the force, bringing the train to a stop. And when he tries to use his legs, not only does he not slow the train down at all but he's shown clutching his knee as he was hurt by the process, even if minimally.
The technique he uses to stop the train relies far more on the tensile strength of the webbing and his bodies ability to withstand being stretched than a use of strength. The only actual strength he's utilizing there is grip strength. That's not to say that he's not strong, just that the feat isn't really one that measures strength. The way the scene is shown, Spidey doesn't actually ever even have a chance to engage his strength before his upper body is pulled to a point where he can't.
By contrast Cap's chopper scene, while similar, actually does showcase Cap's strength because he grabs both the chopper and the railing with his arms in flexion and is able to keep that flex in one arm while eventually pulling the chopper back closer. This doesn't mean that Cap's stronger but that the helicopter scene is one that does actually showcase a feat of strength.
So it's a case where using those particular scenes 1:1 to compare strength isn't great.
Strongly disagree. The only thing the current movies are better at is CGI special effects.Raimi Spider-Man is overrated. Those movies were okay for their time but their nowhere near as good as the superhero films of today. A relic of the past.
Nah man, it's definitely about strength. It's the same as lying on your back on a bench with heavy ass weights in your outstretched hands. It's a static hold. You need your muscles to exert the opposing force of, in this case, a runaway train. You don't need to visually show flexion to have your muscles exert force. Go sit up against the wall with your knees in a ninety degree angle. Still takes strength.
And without the muscle tension in his chest, shoulders, biceps and forearms Spideys arms would be ripped out of his sockets and his elbows and wrists would just snap. Matter of fact, his muscles protecting his joints against the force of a runaway train, and the bones in his arms not snapping, gives Spidey INSANE durability.
The two scenes are actually really comparable because they're both static holds. But in stead of using his chest/shoulders/biceps to stop the helicopter Cap is using just his biceps, which gives you far less strength. If Cap where to have been in a same position as Spidey, using the same muscles he'd have much less difficulty with the chopper. Though also a far less impressive flex ;)
However, this does not the negate the fact Jarmel pointed out that the force of the train is a HUNDRED times more than that of the chopper. If I can hold 30 kilo's in both arms for ten seconds in a static biceps hold, for a total of sixty kilo's, doesn't mean I can hold 3000 kilo dumbells in a static dumbell hold. Would be really cool though.
Given the train and helicopter comparison the difference in just strength, and associated durability, is just way, waaaay to big to even make this a fair fight. Spidey takes this. And I'm even a pretty big Cap fanboy. Like him much better than Tobey.
As someone who mentioned the Spidey Sense, I would say that it's not an invincible defense mechanism, but it is literally a superhuman evasion advantage.
If you look at the Flash fight in Spiderman 1, Peter makes Flash really, really angry, then goes off and starts opening his locker. His focus is entirely on unlocking his lock, and then he gets a tingle, his eyes go wide, and suddenly he can "see" everything that's going on around him. He can see a paper airplane in flight. He can see a fly buzzing in the air. And he can see Flash's fist coming towards the back of his head. So he dodges the punch using his superhuman agility, without even looking.
Then he's fighting Flash and it's as if Flash is standing still (because Spiderman's agility level is crazy high). But while all of Peter's focus is on his slow-mo fight with Flash, someone tries to sucker punch him from behind, and the Spider Sense activates again (with an audio cue) and Peter does a backflip over his new attacker, again without looking.
In Spiderman 2, Peter has "lost" all of his Spiderman powers (he's mentally suppressing them, because he blames them for his hard life of great responsibility), until Doc Ock throws a car at him, from behind, and his eyes go wide and he reacts with superhuman speed to save himself and Mary Jane.
Raimi Spiderman basically has eyes in the back of his head, and it's difficult/impossible to sneak up on him. He also has the reflexes and speed to perform some pretty amazing dodges, regardless of what direction the attack comes from. And once you get past his superhuman dodging ability, he's fast and strong and durable as hell. Spiderman can and does get hit, but the Spidey Sense is a huge factor working in Spiderman's favor.
I think the Spidey Sense comes into play firstly when dealing with Cap's shield. Cap tends to throw his shield, have it reflect off some object, and bounce it towards hitting a guy in their blind spot. But that's exactly the sort of attack that the Spidey Sense works best against. Also, Cap's shield works amazingly well at deflecting large amounts of force (like Thor hitting it with his hammer in Avengers 1), but Spiderman's webs have about as much attack power as getting gum in your hair. Cap's shield is wasted in a fight against Spiderman. Webs are not about attack power, but if you glue the shield to the ground (with webs capable of stopping a train), that shield is taken completely out of the fight. Rock beats scissors, and Spiderman beats Cap's shield.
The second benefit of Spider Sense, I would say, comes in how I feel Cap has the advantage in close quarters, but Spiderman has the advantage at range. I do agree that Cap is a much better fighter, so regardless of Spiderman's strength/speed/durability/Spidey Sense, Spiderman will be out-fought by Cap at close range. But when Spiderman retreats to catch his breath, Cap won't just let him do that. Cap will pursue Spiderman, but he can't sneak attack Spiderman, because the Spidey Sense will tell him when it's time to move again.
Incidentally, I said earlier that Cap wins if he has the hammer, no contest, but I just realized that there's something Spiderman can do to put up a fight. It's the shield. The shield can put up a fight against the hammer (as seen in Avengers 1), but you've gotta be strong to use the shield effectively, and Spiderman's got that in spades. If Spiderman can steal Cap's shield, then Spiderman probably stands an even chance in his fight against Cap with the hammer.
People keep saying that Peter was holding back against Ock, but it makes zero sense for him to not at least hit the guy hard enough to knock the dude out. It was bad writing for the sake of the plot that makes either Peter weak or Ock super human because even if Peter was holding back and punching at normal man strength Ock shouldn't be able to take that.
It's not a legitimate static hold. The comparison to being on the bench doesn't work because on a bench your arms aren't getting support. With the train scene, Spidey's completely supported through his entire arm, with exception to his wrists, and the webbing is flush with and bending around the train essentially taking the brunt of the immediate pressure as the fulcum and changing the the direction of the force from being towards his back (like it would be towards the ground if on a bench) to being outwards. Your evaluation could work if Spidey had been shown to engage his muscles groups before being forced backwards but that's not how they chose to choreograph the scene. It would essentially be pulling his arms straight out of the sockets in a direction that the muscles aren't built to assist in preventing. Had they shown Spidey pull his arms up from his elbows (as in towards the sky as his grip is shown to be thumbs up) then an argument could be made about strength being used but they didn't so he's really only using grip strength to hold on to the webbing which is doing most of the work. The physics shown in the scene are not exact of course. That's a given and honestly to be expected. But from what's shown it's not a test of strength but rather his bodies natural ability to withstand being pressured in an unnatural direction.
Cap's scene has a similar directional pull but he's able to utilize his strength precisely because he started from a position of flexion. Had his arms been fully extended, there wouldn't be much he could use outside of grip strength to keep the Chopper from escaping. The really interesting thing about the Cap scene though is that whoever designed it seems to have known about how the body works to some degree because Cap switching his grip gives him the ability to recruit more muscles groups in securing the Chopper with his flexed left arm and then he somehow leverages very underutilized muscles groups with his right to pull down rather than in. Maybe's it's just coincidence though and the grip switch was done for the precise reason you suggest. Impressive flex. :D