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Bosh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,226
This is something that's been bothering me for a while and I get kinda riled up about it every time I see it unfold. And every time it keeps happening, people keep falling for it...

It all started with Molyneux. He was the master of 'Instead of telling you what my product is, let me just go wild with what I think it could be and get you all excited!" - And that was fine, until you actually put your money down and then the game was nothing like what Peter was hyping it up to be. He pulled this shit for a good decade or more with journalists and gamers loving listening to Uncle Peter and the amazing things he's doing for the industry. It took him to release some pretty damn shoddy games for press and gamers to finally not listen to the lies anymore.

Then came Sean Murray, who apparently had learned straight from the Peter Molyneux handbook. This guy apparently just loooooved the spotlight. Even days before No Man's Sky released, he hyped up the Multiplayer that didn't even exist and was all too happy to let people think that No Man's Sky was 'Minecraft in Space', where you could literally do everything (you being able to do everything is generally a common theme behind the gaming snake oil salesmen, cause hey, that sorta attracts everybody!). Obviously there was massive backlash when No Man's Sky finally released and the product being nothing like what Murray hyped it up to be. But what happened then? They released a bunch of updates, so let's forget about the initial lies and deception and hey, let's actually shower him with awards again, cause he finally kinda sorta delivered on what he said the game would be years earlier. Thanks, Geoff Keighley. Rewarding that kinda behavior will surely help the industry grow stronger.

And then came Cyberpunk. Made by the guys that made Witcher 3, so this shit had to be good. Here's our Cyberpunk universe and - trust us - you can do fucking everything! Here the entire CDPR PR department took all the cues from what worked for Molyneux and Murray and just went completely apeshit with it. Gamers were to believe that this is "Sci-Fi GTA in First Person". What's not to love? Every video released by CDPR was carefully crafted to create a picture in players minds that was just insanely compelling. They stopped just short of outright saying that this thing would cure cancer. This strategy resulted in a sensational 8 million pre-orders. What happened then was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CymqHdNYkg&ab_channel=BeatEmUps. The product was a fraction of what the developer hyped it up to be and on top of that it barely even ran on consoles that it was supposed to 'run surprisingly well on!'.

I'd argue that all 3 of those are clear examples of you folks all being made fools of. And even the 'journalists' in this industry happily played along, each and every single time.

And let me also say, from the perspective of a developer, all of this just sucks. Back in 2014, I remember some journalist from some big publication telling us that Ori almost got the cover article of some magazine I read frequently, but ultimately they had to pick No Man's Sky cause it was the 'bigger game'. I kinda agreed back then, thinking to myself: "Ok, I get it, they have to promote the bigger game, they obviously have to go for the clicks. Sucks, but that's how the game is played." But then I really felt bamboozled once No Man's Sky came out and it became clear that all this hype was really just built on lies and the honest guy who just showed his actual product really got kicked in the balls because the lying guy was able to make up some tall tales that held absolutely no substance.

I know this whole thread might come off as me sounding bitter and I'm sure there'll be some people that see this as me shitting on other devs. No, I'm not. I'm shitting on liars and people that are okay with openly deceiving others. I'd argue that we should all agree that this shit is not okay. If I go and buy a car and the car salesman sells me a car that supposedly has 300 horse power, but on the drive home after the purchase I notice that he switched out the motor when I wasn't looking, I'd be rightfully pissed off, cause I was deceived.

And yet, gamers and journalists don't really seem to mind all that much. Yeah, the backlash is coming, but usually you see a ton of people then arguing that they like the game that came out of it anyway. That is so not the point. It doesn't matter if the snake oil actually tastes fine. Don't sell me on features that don't exist. Don't paint a picture that you'll not be able to deliver. Just don't fucking lie to me. You're fucking over gamers, you're fucking over journalists (that should know better, so shame on you!) and you're fucking over other developers.

There, I said my piece, felt like a chip I needed to get off my shoulder and I think this is a wrong that we should set right so that this won't happen anymore.

Ori and the Will of the Wisps should of been mentioned above as well as your 4th example. There are games you highlight that I don't particularily find fun to play, worth mentioning on any reccomendation list, but at the end of the day at release they all were playable (With a few crashes here and there). Will of the Wisps was not on the launch Xbox One.

The game fully stuttered every 20 seconds. I play games on everything, 30fps with dips I can live with. Will of the Wisps you would jump and mid game it would fully freeze for a second then move on. In a platforming game, its especially jarring.

Next up we could tackle bugs that caused the game to crash. I redownloaded the game, I started a fresh save nothing fixed this unitil a patch was released a month after release. Will of The Wisps had a hard stop on progression for a month because the game would freeze everytime during the transition during
Spider boss as the game cuts to black midway through the fight
.

Somehow the art style got mangled from the first game to the second. Just a screengrab, and idea of what was shown off for the game during trailers leading up to release in terms of what to expect
X04_XSX-1.png


Versus origional Xbox One (Which I get it won't be 4k...etc, I own a pc to game as well and know console games tend to be lower settings, I just wanted to play the game on my couch and not my office) Below two screenshots I took and show how blurry and fuzzy the game was. It somehow looked much worse then the first Ori on Xbox One.
save-0.png

save.png


At launch, it was a console exclusive on Xbox, yet both Xbox & PC versions had a ton of issues. It took two patchs and over a month to get the game playable on the Origional Xbox One for me to finish, which begs the question (below is your words not mine)

I know this whole thread might come off as me sounding bitter and I'm sure there'll be some people that see this as me shitting on other devs. No, I'm not. I'm shitting on liars and people that are okay with openly deceiving others. I'd argue that we should all agree that this shit is not okay. If I go and buy a car and the car salesman sells me a car that supposedly has 300 horse power, but on the drive home after the purchase I notice that he switched out the motor when I wasn't looking, I'd be rightfully pissed off, cause I was deceived.

If I should give Moon Studios another shot down the road, it would only be logical for you and others to give other game studios another shot. One person, or a few rouge comments does not represent an entire team that put these games together.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,500
Now that are just lame excuses.

It's not really an excuse though. Where I work, anyone who is set to have press interviews at events or otherwise goes through mandatory media training and for good reason. Game developers are humans just like you and everyone else in this thread after all. That doesn't excuse the lies that were told, but context is important.
 
May 10, 2019
677
I choose to not think of a Sean Murray as a "liar" and have that weigh on my heart. I take more issue with the system that got Hello Games into their launch situation.

This is pretty much why I refuse to put Sony on any sort of pedestal anymore - since they (likely due to pub fund and timed exclusivity agreements) were the ones forcing the game out when HG was still catching up on over a year of lost work from the flooding situation. What was Murray going to do, throw Sony under the bus in public before (or even just after) they launched? Especially when the release bonuses were contingent on meeting the deadlines and the studio would go under without them?

Also the "muh multiplayer" whine in 2021 makes me even happier that I didn't have to share a universe with anybody else in 2016 when I was perfectly fine with exploring the voids of space alone while I was recovering from a heart attack. So yeah, I'm more than a little fucking biased.
 

Grifter

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,573
First several posts I read in this thread was "this snake oil tastes good!" when that's unacceptable, we should expect better, and OP clearly lays out why.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,528
I think the issue is that while most of these devs aren't lying, they announce what they ultimately want for the game and then let the Internet hype do its thing while it compounds.

Then the inevitable dev problems come and by then it's too late to try to kill the hype machine.

NMS is a great example of how blind the internet hype can be, even in Era.

Me and other users kept saying "Hey, this all sounds great, but considering the size of that studio, doesn't this seem like a grand undertaking? Even something that an AAA studio would struggle with?" And others would ignore that.

NMS is in a great spot now, but people should have known then that the hype was being overblown and the game was going to need time to where they originally wanted it to be.

It's tough because obviously you have to be able to sell your game so you promise what you see is the perfect game in your head that you will make. But there will always be complications.

So devs should either try to make the game sound appealing while not overselling it, or continually keep the hype in check with honest dev checkups/roadmaps.

And more should look into early access. I guarantee you NMS would not have gotten the flak it received had they said they were doing early access first.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,442
Florida
Now who is lying lol...

A huge section of your post was about how your studio didn't get magazine features because of Sean

God this thread is so fucking weird.

And got capped off with a dig about NMS winning a Game Award. Which like, even if it wasn't his intention still makes the entire section seems like him venting his sour grapes.
 
OP
OP
thomasmahler

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
And no, The day 1 patch didn't fix shit
It was broken on Xbox One when I played it too with crashes and performance issues
Journalists should be strict only when it's not your game is it now?

My dude... This journalist played the unpatched version that was 4-5 months old. He did for some reason not even get the version that MS told us would be the one that journalists would use to review the game. So since players would never see that version, I think it's more than fair to ask him to look at the stuff through the right lense. And yes, if he didn't like that version, he should've rated it accordingly, of course! That journalist actually then rated the game up 20 points or so cause he thought it played a lot better than the version he initially got. There was nothing deceptive there, sorry to disappoint you.
 

MegaSackman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,753
Argentina
NMS went waaaay beyond what was proimised and they charged $0 for it so, I guess the debt is paid and they deserve the accolades for that.
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
My dude... This journalist played the unpatched version that was 4-5 months old. He did for some reason not even get the version that MS told us would be the one that journalists would use to review the game. So since players would never see that version, I think it's more than fair to ask him to look at the stuff through the right lense. And yes, if he didn't like that version, he should've rated it accordingly, of course! That journalist actually then rated the game up 20 points or so cause he thought it played a lot better than the version he initially got. There was nothing deceptive there, sorry to disappoint you.
You said the day1 patch fixed the issues the game was having?
Which it clearly didn't
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,500
First several posts I read in this thread was "this snake oil tastes good!" when that's unacceptable, we should expect better, and OP clearly lays out why.

I don't understand the point of this thread though, especially in it's focus of NMS. Sean Murray lied, 5 years ago. The game came out and didn't meet expectations. The man was humbled and the team worked for the next 4-5 years fixing up and improving the game. Now it's (supposedly) a great game.

Were people supposed to shun NMS, Sean Murray and Hello Games forever? That's a ridiculous position to take. It's not okay for developers or anyone to lie about a product they're selling, but what point is there in harbouring anger about a videogame for years to come, even after it ends up improving dramatically and the developers seemingly learn their lesson. Peter Molyneux lied consistently about multiple games and never corrected that, and we have yet to see what happens with Cyberpunk. The examples cited in the OP are all completely different scenarios, and the practice of developers outright lying about the game they're making right up to release isn't that common a trend. It's most relegated to some extremely high profile and egregious instances.

Judging by some of the other posts that have come to light, it just seems like Thomas here has an extremely large chip on his shoulder and Sean Murray lives rent free in his head for whatever reason. A discussion that needs to be had though is that a lot (not all) of the games press hold the industry to account for absolutely nothing and are glorified PR amplification machines.
 

Judge

Vault-Tec Seal of Approval
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,148
This thread is temporarily locked while we review the thread and it's associated reported content.
 

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,735
After further review, we are leaving this thread locked.
 
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