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sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Prior to Trump's election, there was absolutely an ideological distinction between the free market, neoliberal, neoconservative, capitalist right and the fascist, ethnonationalist right. There was always overlap in racism but their end goals were different.

Since 2016, the gap between the two has been closing.
 
OP
OP
Elegant Weapon
Oct 31, 2017
6,749
I don't. I just say republicans, because there really isn't a difference between the two groups. This is painfully obvious to most minority groups but it seems white Americans still squirm when confronted with the idea that republicans are a pretty racist, white supremacist political party.

Thank you!

Lmao @ posters in here talking about "nuance"
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
Like, it's just the right. "Alt-right" was coined by Richard Spencer to make being right wing seem cooler, so why do so many of you indulge that?

I don't get it. It's like y'all respect their right to identify as extremists... as if the fact that these right wing assholes are willing to say the quiet part out loud really make them so "alternative"

What really is the point of accommodating their attempt to rebrand?
many republicans who agree with all of their points would be insulted to be called alt right. they don't think of themselves as extremists. calling them that anyway isnt what all of them want: only extremely online people with limited public visibility want that.

anyways I don't really use the term. its often used accurately tho
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
it's an easy shorthand to refer specifically to neo nazis and channer edgelords and incels. kind of different from your run of the mill republican
This.

Anyone who thinks Alt Right is just the right hasn't really had any interaction with your standard republican.

Prior to Trump's election, there was absolutely an ideological distinction between the free market, neoliberal, neoconservative, capitalist right and the fascist, ethnonationalist right. There was always overlap in racism but their end goals were different.

Since 2016, the gap between the two has been closing.

This is also fair too.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
It's a useful term to define the conservative counterculture (as opposed to mainstream Republicanism which, even in its more extreme forms, embraces cultural mores and is not iconoclastic).
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
Good points, but I think after Charlottesville the alt right tag became absolutely toxic to regular people.

So yeah, it's been successful in terms of recruiting the various town oddballs into a group but the alt right label has failed to become accepted in the mainstream. They wanted the tweed suits and 'polite' racists to be the image, that didn't happen. Charlottesville forever made the image of the alt right Nazi neckbeard losers to the mainstream.
Do we have any evidence of that? I don't mean that rhetorically; I popped "alt right poll" into Google to see if we have any survey of people's opinions on them, but what I'm instead seeing are articles from last year stating that tens of millions of white Americans have views that are in line with them anyway.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
The term "Alt-right" has evolved and now it means "racist fascists".

I will continue to use it and never as compliment.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,320
Tampa, Fl
I think it's even more funny how their attempts to make "alt-left" a thing failed miserably.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Do we have any evidence of that? I don't mean that rhetorically; I popped "alt right poll" into Google to see if we have any survey of people's opinions on them, but what I'm instead seeing are articles from last year stating that tens of millions of white Americans have views that are in line with them anyway.
No, all I have are my observations and I'm not American so could absolutely be way off.

I would agree some of the things they believe are coming through somewhat (they are here too) but they never achieved the respectability they were looking for. The Richard Spencer tweed suited and 'polite' types were supposed to be the face of this. Their beliefs - even if it's growing - still evoke the same old image of a fat skinhead ranting loser they had before the rebrand. They are only gonna attract angry white males, they aren't gonna get regular families etc with that image.

That's what I think anyway, I could be wrong.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
It's a new movement. Therefore the new name. No one is calling it the Neo-Nazi-lite.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
Mainstream republicans are already extremists.

Neo Nazis, edgelords and incels are just regular run of the mill republicans, regardless of what websites they use
This take lacks any sort of nuance and in the age of Trump has become increasingly common among anyone who hates Trump. Hating Trump is fine, but acting like the alt-right and typical Republicans are the same is not.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,734
I guess I never really thought about it that way, something to keep in mind moving forward. I would just say Nazi, but in less politically-inclined people it evokes the imagery of uniforms and Germany when the reality is they have evolved into a different packaging with the same ideals. It's just a more easily-understood way where it's more likely the person you're talking to will know what you are referring to.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
it bucks against neocons, paleo-cons or plain cons

Atl-Right is a new breed of conservatism that is anti-Trade, anti-EU, anti-NATO, Pro-Kremlin, that is goes against the conventions of traditional allies that other forms of conservatism used to have.

who would have thunk that the Right in the US would turn Alt-Right and turn their backs on the century old alliance with the UK and France to allign themselves with their Cold War enemy: Russia

it's a re-aligment of alliances that pokes right at the root cause of the source of the pheoenenmenon......... Russia
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
I don't know if Republicans and the alt-right have total overlap, but part of the issue with the supposed loss of nuance is that a lot of these scary white supremacy movements aren't actually new to America. The difference is moreso how they're packaged and how they interact which gives them more power now than they did when we were kids.

Beyond just Nazis - who were recruiting in American since the originals via things like the German American Bund - you also have stuff like the KKK, which is native to America and actual a model that the Nazis used for themselves. You had the racist science being pushed internationally by Americans such as Theodore Lothrop Stoddard. You had Henry Ford publishing leaflets about the Jewish conspiracy. There were a whole bunch of prominent Americans being invited over to Nazi Germany to shake hands.

And it's not like old school racism is that old; there were still Civil War veterans alive when Donald Trump was born. You can find video of people who fought to keep slavery:




The alt-right also includes Neo-Confederates. And Neo-Confederates are tied to the efforts to preserve statues of Confederate figures, statues built to intimidate, under claim of history. It's tied to the promotion of the confederate flag as a symbol of southern identity. And those are tied to the Daughters of Confederacy, who promoted historical revisionism.

A lot of these insidious things have been lying in wait this whole time. Yes, they're enabled by the internet now, but are they really new? It's not uncommon for the statements from prominent figures tied to the racism of back then to be eerily similar to the defenses you'd see posted on the internet or spouted by Fox News' talking heads today.
 
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Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
the term is so useful and accurate for describing its subject matter that the alt-right now hates it when you call them alt-right
 

Zelenogorsk

Banned
Mar 1, 2018
1,567
If i want to specifically call out the 4chan edgelord /pol/ crowd i think alt-right is the most widely understood term for that.
"the alt-right started gamergate"
"republicans started gamergate"
The second sentence isn't wrong but i think the first sentence makes more sense.

My dad is a republican and i'm pretty sure he has no idea what the fuck kekistan is.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Specificity, mostly. There is a difference. They're both bigots, but they're bigots in different (but equally unacceptable) ways. Typical establishment Republicans ultimately want to get along with neoliberals/centrists, and vice versa, because they're comfortable with the current status quo- which is, yes, incredibly bigoted and needs addressing. They're concerned with maintaining their own power first and foremost, hence their platitudes towards pretending to care about racism and agreeing to idolize the likes of, say, MLK (when their forebears LOATHED the man) who are in direct opposition to their goals. Alt-righters are not comfortable with the current status quo and hate anyone even marginally to the right of themselves and feel they are holding back whatever race, nation, or culture they are a part of. They find allies in MAYBE Tea Partiers, but they hate typical establishment Republicans almost as much as they hate liberals and leftists.

Basically, one group wants things to stay the same as it has since Reagan/Thatcher, which clearly doesn't work due to the fact that many are still marginalized. The other wants radical change, but to benefit themselves and only them and theirs. Everyone who is already marginalized and not in their in-group (say, white, straight men and those in their patriarchal family units) will simply be trampled on even more than usual, while elevating the useful idiots who fit their in-group to their cause and casting down those who allied with neoliberals and those who thought they'd be the "exceptions".

So yeah. There's a difference.

Also they hate being called alt-right even though THEY coined that term.

If I talk about the alt-right, I do mean the alt-right or at least the alt-right/tea-party coalition that helped enable Trump. But I mostly refer to all of the right AS the right and all Republicans as Republicans, because the specificity of alt right vs. tea party vs. establishment Republican, while useful some of the time, is not useful all of the time. They're all flavors of shit.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that Republicans only exist in America. Alt-right can be used to describe many parties or parts of parties the world over. If you're only concerned with America I can see why it may seem redundant. But I'm as concerned for the marginalized abroad as I am at home. If I speak of the alt-right it's the group that includes Jordan Peterson, Sargon of Akkad and uyoku dantai. They can't be Republicans as they aren't American.
 
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FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
it's an easy shorthand to refer specifically to neo nazis and channer edgelords and incels. kind of different from your run of the mill republican

Yea, they're a pretty specific breed of right winger. Like, David Frum is clearly a conservative and a republican, but he's not alt-right. The alt-right are essentially a loosely connected collection of hate groups. They label themselves differently, but in the end they all share the same racism, bigotry, and misogyny.
 

Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
Prior to Trump's election, there was absolutely an ideological distinction between the free market, neoliberal, neoconservative, capitalist right and the fascist, ethnonationalist right. There was always overlap in racism but their end goals were different.

Since 2016, the gap between the two has been closing.

Yeah, but there is quite a lot of imprecision in how the terms are deployed, nevertheless. Things that have been Republican talking points for years are now alt-right in some liberal spaces, and there's a looooooong way to go before conservatives get "J-woke" (arguably the lynchpin of alt-right ideology) en masse.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I still can't get over the term "intellectual dark web" because like they weren't intellectual and the figureheads mostly hung out on youtube
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,588
Racoon City
Thank you!

Lmao @ posters in here talking about "nuance"

They also conveniently forgot about the tea party, and ignore the fact republicans have constantly been moving further and further right. Why do I need nuance when anyone can take a cautionary look at history of conservatives and see the same shit time and time again?

Not all republicans, yet they all fall in line every single time. There's no nuance between racism bring yelled through a megaphone vs coded language to those who are the target of said language and policies.

Not to mention the "standard republicans" embraced both the tea party and alt right, so why should I make a distinction?
 
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Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
I think the term originated from the need for something to call the resurgence of fascist ideology without being accused of hyperbole.

I think it was a bit of "the boy who cried wolf" when trying to compare this to Hitler or Nazis.
 

Etrian Oddity

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,429
Threads like this make me wonder if certain posters on ERA ever interact with actual humans outside of the internet, if they literally believe every conservative is an active neo-nazi/incel/fascist. There is absolutely a nuance between the right and alt/far right, but "lol nuance"
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Yeah, they didn't even get banned from anything. There was nothing dark about it, well their views are dark I guess.

Fucking Bari Weiss.

Honestly the worst part about it is people talking about it abbreviated as "IDW" and I'm like since when are the Ducktales and Transformers comics politically regressive
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
I think the term originated from the need for something to call the resurgence of fascist ideology without being accused of hyperbole.

I think it was a bit of "the boy who cried wolf" when trying to compare this to Hitler or Nazis.

The difference between this and the boy who cried wolf is that the wolf wasn't already there when the boy started.
 

TheAndyMan

Banned
Feb 11, 2019
1,082
Utah
It's the label these call themselves(bc white nationalism/fascism/race realist doesn't sound as "hip".)
"Hey there fellow kids, wanna hear about JQ?" -Alt Right millenial
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
The difference between this and the boy who cried wolf is that the wolf wasn't already there when the boy started.

Interesting point, I always wondered if it was a case of people becoming hateful due embitterment with "the system".
Or if it was a case that shitty people who were always there, simply became better connected and organised.

Maybe a bit of both?
 
OP
OP
Elegant Weapon
Oct 31, 2017
6,749
Threads like this make me wonder if certain posters on ERA ever interact with actual humans outside of the internet, if they literally believe every conservative is an active neo-nazi/incel/fascist. There is absolutely a nuance between the right and alt/far right, but "lol nuance"

Draw a map with two roads intersecting, creating four roads. At the center is a $100 bill. At the end of each road is Santa clause, the easter bunny, an non fascist capitalist right winger and a run of the mil "might makes right" police loving immigrant hating racist republican. Who do you think gets the the $100 first?

The run of the mil republican, because the rest are figments of your imagination.


Seriously, where are these non extremist republicans denouncing the oh so much more extreme and not at all mainstream "alt right?"

They're nowhere because it's all the same team. Just because Fox News is mainstream does not mean it's not extremist or fascist; it very much is.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
Draw a map with two roads intersecting, creating four roads. At the center is a $100 bill. At the end of each road is Santa clause, the easter bunny, an non fascist capitalist right winger and a run of the mil "might makes right" police loving immigrant hating racist republican. Who do you think gets the the $100 first?

The run of the mil republican, because the rest are figments of your imagination.


Seriously, where are these non extremist republicans denouncing the oh so much more extreme and not at all mainstream "alt right?"

They're nowhere because it's all the same team. Just because Fox News is mainstream does not mean it's not extremist or fascist; it very much is.

You should watch Real Time with Bill Maher. I know he's an asshole but he often has regular republicans on his show who denounce the far/alt-right and can have sober conversations devoid of bigotry. Hell, even George W. Bush appears moderate compared to the far right these days.
 
OP
OP
Elegant Weapon
Oct 31, 2017
6,749
You should watch Real Time with Bill Maher. I know he's an asshole but he often has regular republicans on his show who denounce the far/alt-right and can have sober conversations devoid of bigotry. Hell, even George W. Bush appears moderate compared to the far right these days.

You're letting "W Bush appears moderate compared to the far right" get in the way of the fact that W Bush is in no way fucking moderate.

I'm sure there are tons of republicans that honestly believe they're not fascist racists but that doesn't mean they aren't.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,214
Because household conservatism doesn't involve white nationalism. Racism sure, but usually the ignorant kind, not the nazi kind. White nationalism is an alternative manifestation of political conservatism in America.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
Because household conservatism doesn't involve white nationalism. Racism sure, but usually the ignorant kind, not the nazi kind. White nationalism is an alternative manifestation of political conservatism in America.
I don't think that's true?


American conservatism has pretty openly used white racism for a while now, and it was never at any point rooted in "ignorance" so much as deliberate exploitation.
 
OP
OP
Elegant Weapon
Oct 31, 2017
6,749
Because household conservatism doesn't involve white nationalism.

Wow, we're not going to agree at all about that.

Have you never heard of the southern strategy? It was all about appealing to racists. That's what modern "conservatism" is built on.

This "nuance" y'all talking about is really disingenuous attempts to sanitize the right.
"oh that's just ignorant racism, not white nationalism..."

seriously?
 
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May 29, 2019
503
They also conveniently forgot about the tea party, and ignore the fact republicans have constantly been moving further and further right. Why do I need nuance when anyone can take a cautionary look at history of conservatives and see the same shit time and time again?

I believe the tea party espoused far right views and continues to push the republican party further right. I think when people speak of republican nuance, that shift is an example of what they are speaking about, regardless of the possibility (truth?) of the republican party having a racist core that should be removed.

In the pursuit of efficacy, I make the distinction.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,214
Wow, we're not going to agree at all about that.

Have you never heard of the southern strategy? It was all about appealing to racists. That's what modern "conservatism" is built on.

This "nuance" y'all talking about is really disingenuous attempts to sanitize the right.
"oh that's just ignorant racism, not white nationalism..."

seriously?

Wtf? Understanding there are different types of racism is pretty fucking important when it comes to addressing it. You can't treat everyone and your dumb grandma like a nazi.
 
OP
OP
Elegant Weapon
Oct 31, 2017
6,749
Wtf? Understanding there are different types of racism is pretty fucking important when it comes to addressing it. You can't treat everyone and your dumb grandma like a nazi.

your presented distinctions between "white nationalism" and "ignorant racism" are dubious and not actually addressing shit.

You seem really worried how people that support mainstream racism are treated while not addressing the fact that "grandma"* supports fascism, simply because it's normalized


*great job at painting republicans that aren't "alt right" as innocent as possible. As if Nazi Germany was just soldiers and no complicit citizens