Why NVIDIA Corp. Will Design a Fully Custom Chip for the Next Nintendo Switch

[Pablo Mesa]

article
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/04/26/why-nvidia-corp-will-design-a-fully-custom-chip-fo.aspx

Going forward, though, I believe that NVIDIA will build truly custom processors for Nintendo's future Switch game consoles (if NVIDIA is indeed contracted to provide the chips for those consoles).

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After the Tegra X1, though, NVIDIA's Tegra processor designs have become decidedly less mobile-focused and more automotive-focused.....
Since NVIDIA's mainstream Tegra processors are targeted at the automotive market (where power efficiency is still important but the total power consumed by the chips can be higher), I think NVIDIA will need something different for a future Nintendo Switch.

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The good news for both Nintendo and NVIDIA is that a custom processor for a future Nintendo Switch would still likely be built from many of the same building blocks that are used to craft the automotive-focused Tegra processors...
NVIDIA could also cut out any hardware inside of the chip that's not relevant to gaming/multimedia performance (like the dedicated computer vision engine that's embedded in the chip to support self-driving car applications) to save on both power and cost. NVIDIA could even use the power/space savings that result from cutting the proverbial fat to beefing up things that matter to gaming (for example, adding more graphics processor cores).

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Ill personally add, Security, using an already released, well documented Chip for Switch surely have not helped on the security for the console.

 

[Skittzo]

Probably the biggest plus about using off the shelf hardware should have been that they would be easy to produce in mass quantities. Clearly that didn't pan out, so yeah I don't see any reason why they shouldn't go custom for the next Switch.

 

[Jraphics Horse]

Yeah I came to the same conclusion, even if Nvidia wanted to carry on their Shield brand for some reason, it would likely be based on the chip Nintendo need this time rather than the other way around.

 

[345]

something that most people don't realise about nvidia is that they explicitly got out of mobile chip development way before the switch was even announced. the tegra X1 failed in other devices and was available to nintendo at a presumably favourable price, but it's not like there's an obvious runway for an X2 or 3 that would make sense for the switch — nvidia's non-PC dev has been focused on self-driving cars for years.

could the switch convince nvidia to develop a new SoC? sure — as they did with the GPU for the PS3, it wouldn't be much of an architectural stretch. but the main point is that we're already seeing the problems wrought by nintendo picking an unsuccessful, outdated chip off the shelf.

 

[MP!]

I fully expect them to just because it seems volta isnt designed with consoles in mind. I'd love to see what a custom nvidia system can do.

edit: I mean yeah they wouldnt really be able to plop a stock chip in there like they did the first time... there would be inevitable redesigns arranging cores and such... even if it wasnt a fully 100% new chip design it would for sure not be off the shelf again.

 

[Shoichi]

I believe Nvidia is living their original vision that was for their Shield handheld line which never took off, in the Nintendo Switch.

Nvidia imo will be just modifying whatever processor they have that is mobile compatible with some modifications on it. Especially if the Switch and its successor systems are as successful sales wise.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

something that most people don't realise about nvidia is that they explicitly got out of mobile chip development way before the switch was even announced. the tegra X1 failed in other devices and was available to nintendo at a presumably favourable price, but it's not like there's an obvious runway for an X2 or 3 that would make sense for the switch — nvidia's non-PC dev has been focused on self-driving cars for years.

could the switch convince nvidia to develop a new SoC? sure — as they did with the GPU for the PS3, it wouldn't be much of an architectural stretch. but the main point is that we're already seeing the problems wrought by nintendo picking an unsuccessful, outdated chip off the shelf.

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What's the problem? Nvidia is making successful GPU architectures, memory controllers and uncores, sound processors, etc. Just don't include the car processor special sauce, and throw in some Cortex 73 or Cortex 75 cores, and it's done.
AMD doesn't sell multi-teraflop APUs off the shelf either, but they make them for consoles.

 

[345]

What's the problem? Nvidia is making successful GPU architectures, memory controllers and uncores, sound processors, etc. Just don't include the car processor special sauce, and throw in some Cortex 73 or Cortex 75 cores, and it's done.
AMD doesn't sell multi-teraflop APUs off the shelf either, but they make them for consoles.

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well yeah, that's what i'm saying. there's a reason the switch had to use an off-the-shelf maxwell chip for a 2017 release. lots of reasons, in fact!

nintendo's success will no doubt convince nvidia that it's worth taking a look at mobile-focused chips again, but let's be clear: the only reason for nvidia to do so will be nintendo, and it won't be a broad re-entry into the mobile SoC market. i saw a ton of hopeful speculation on here and previous locations that the switch would or could use a mythical tegra "X2" chip that doesn't actually exist.

point is, the next switch will have to be a custom nvidia design, because there isn't really any other option.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

Tensorcores would not be needed.
The latest Xavier SOC has a 256 bit bus. Which is great since it has more than 4x the bandwidth of the Switch.
If the Switch successor can have 130 GB/s bandwidth that'll allow the system to have up to 3 teraflops docked.

8 core arm
8GB LPDDR4, 256 bit bus, 100GB/s
1024 CU, > 2 teraflop docked.
1080p / 1440p screen.

 

[senj]

It's too bad that AMD's movement into ARM cores never really went anywhere. There would have been some interesting options out there, otherwise.

 

[Turrican3]

Ill personally add, Security, using an already released, well documented Chip for Switch surely have not helped on the security for the console.

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I don't know, as far as I understand it's just (?!) a vulnerability in the Nvidia code, it could have happened on a 100% obscure, undocumented chip as well.

(it would have likely taken more time to discover though, but who knows? hackers usually do their best on popular hardware, and the Switch is exactly that)

 

[Dekuman]

It will be semi custom. The base tech will likely be based on their desktop tech. Just a quibble over terminology.

 

[808s & Villainy]

It will be semi custom. The base tech will likely be based on their desktop tech.

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Why would they based a mobile chip on desktop tech?

 

[Instro]

That's pretty much a no brainer as Nvidia is only designing Tegra chips for cars right now. Assuming this is indeed a long term partnership, which I'm sure it is. Nvidia will leverage their ongoing development in both desktop and mobile markets to make something in lock step with their roadmaps. The X1 was a necessity because of where Nvidia was at when Nintendo came on board, and because of the timeline that they had for getting the Switch to market.

 

[Iucidium]

TL;Dr they have no choice.
Now make it an X2 :D

 

[justiceiro]

Too soon to Tell, a lot of things can change in the next 10 years

 

[Dekuman]

Why would they based a mobile chip on desktop tech?

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Well it worked with Tegra K1 and X1.
Prior to that Nvidia was developing mobile gpus which hit into a few tablets and the ouya but were not impressive

Since Tegra 4 they went with adapting their desktop gpus.

K1 is based the the desktop kepler used in the 7series gtx
X1 is based on the desktop maxwell in the 9 series gtx
X2 is a die shrink of the maxwell aka Pascal used in the 10 series

 

[Gobias-Ind]

Nvidia is on record saying they expect this Switch thing to result in a 20-year partnership between them and Nintendo. I dunno if they'll have something off the shelf or make something custom, but I bet they already know exactly what's next.

 

[Mr Swine]

Why would they based a mobile chip on desktop tech?

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Because Nvidia are producing GPU that can be used on many different fronts. Not like in the old days where Nvidia and AMD had plenty of different GPU's and not cut down ones

 

[808s & Villainy]

Well it worked with Tegra K1 and X1.
Prior to that Nvidia was developing mobile gpus which hit into a few tablets and the ouya but were not impressive

Since Tegra 4 they went with adapting their desktop gpus.

K1 is based the the desktop kepler used in the 7series gtx
X1 is based on the desktop maxwell in the 9 series gtx
X2 is a die shrink of the maxwell aka Pascal used in the 10 series

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Didn't know this. Thanks

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Tensorcores would not be needed.
The latest Xavier SOC has a 256 bit bus. Which is great since it has more than 4x the bandwidth of the Switch.
If the Switch successor can have 130 GB/s bandwidth that'll allow the system to have up to 3 teraflops docked.

8 core arm
8GB LPDDR4, 256 bit bus, 100GB/s
1024 CU, > 2 teraflop docked.
1080p / 1440p screen.

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Holy bandwidth starved system, Batman!!!

Only 100GB/s for a > 2 TFLOPs systems?!?!

PS4 is 1.8TFLOPs on the GPU alone, with 176 GB/s system BW, and that system is heavily bandwidth starved in most games.

 

[Vena]

The T214 is already, effectively, a custom chip. Even if the documentation pointing to 8GBs is only for dev unit upgrades, its still a departure from the 4GB limit on the original and so likely has an upgraded bus as well. It may even find its way onto a 16/14nm fabrication line in the not too distant future, which was a dead end for the stock X1.

T214 being a backported, rewritten s.e., of the T186 isn't some 'small' project of just hitting a button. They've done some heavy tweaking under the hood to have, effectively, two very different Switches out in the market soon with very different foot prints and security handlings. Which, all the same, is pretty funny that the Switch will exist in two rather distinct forms from an encryption point of view. It's even already in Firmware 5.0 with now two completely differently locked down package1 loaders.

I have to wonder if they can't/won't start just outright blacklisting SDKs from old Switches.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

Holy bandwidth starved system, Batman!!!

Only 100GB/s for a > 2 TFLOPs systems?!?!

PS4 is 1.8TFLOPs on the GPU alone, with 176 GB/s system BW, and that system is heavily bandwidth starved in most games.

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PS4 is missing delta color compression and other bandwidth improvements in the later GCN pipelines.

If you look at recent AMD and Nvidia GPUs, the ratio of per 100 GB/s bandwidth to teraflops is 1 to 2.5 teraflops. i.e. 1080TI with 484GB/s and ~11 teraflops.

 

[Deleted member 36708]

Tensorcores would not be needed.
The latest Xavier SOC has a 256 bit bus. Which is great since it has more than 4x the bandwidth of the Switch.
If the Switch successor can have 130 GB/s bandwidth that'll allow the system to have up to 3 teraflops docked.

8 core arm
8GB LPDDR4, 256 bit bus, 100GB/s
1024 CU, > 2 teraflop docked.
1080p / 1440p screen.

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Ha!