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Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I have been talking about the issues I'm having with UWP and the Windows Store in several topics already. But because this often leads to derailing these threads and I don't want to annoy people by repeating the same stuff over and over again, I decided/was asked to create a new topic for this subject.

What's this topic about?

I see a lot of people complaining about the Windows Store on many of the forums and gaming related websites I visit. But those complains are mostly about the many technical issues that people encounter: many people can't even download the games from the Windows Store, and the Xbox App is unreliable as well.

While of course these complaints are just, there are also several other issues with Microsofts latest PC gaming efforts that are barely spoken about. In this topic, I'll try to explain these issues once and for all. :)


Merging PC gaming with Xbox gaming

It's not a secret that Microsofts Xbox One console isn't doing as well as it's competitors from Sony and Nintendo. This is probably one of the reasons why Microsoft is trying to merge PC gaming with Xbox gaming, using UWP, Xbox Live and the Windows Store. By adding the huge PC crowd in the bargain, it will be easier to get exclusivity deals with 3rd party studios and to monetize PC gamers using Xbox Live services.

Trying to merge an open ecosystem (PC) with a closed ecosystem (console) isn't that smart tho. A console has many restrictions that a PC doesn't have. And unlike PC gaming, consoles are still dependable on the retail market and their demands. As a result, Microsofts plan to merge PC gaming with console gaming brings several significant disadvantages of console gaming to PC. Time to explain what I'm talking about.


Mods and community content

Microsoft only allows UWP for games sold in their Store. While UWP may be more secure and future proof, it also has several restrictions that win32 programs don't have. The biggest problem is that UWP games are sold as encrypted "apps", where all game files are inaccessible. These apps are also running in a sandboxed environment with limited access to the OS and other apps.

Because of this, creating mods for UWP games will be very hard or even impossible. While devs may find a way to release games with some kind of built-in mod support, no doubt many devs won't bother to do so and even if they do, there's a huge chance that they'll try to monetize it (like Bethesda's Creation Club). One of the most significant advantages of PC gaming is that you can mod your games to your own liking, which is being proved by the huge amount of mods for games without "official" mod support on sites like Nexusmods.

These restrictions will also have a huge impact on community-made content: many popular games are having excellent additional content made by the community, or even complete overhauls of the gameplay. You can use tools like SweetFX to improve the graphics as you like. You can get rid of unskippable intro movies by deleting the movie files. Broken games are being fixed with community tools (like Durante 's well known DsFix) and I've replayed several classic games with excellent community-made HD texture and interface packs. None of this is currently possible with UWP games.

Of course, not everyone uses mods or community stuff for every game, but restricting it will definitely have an impact for everyone sooner or later. For example, some of the most played games on PC like PUBG are based on mods. This is surely something we need to protect.


Pricing

Another huge issue is the pricing of the games that are sold in the Windows Store. Because of Play Anywhere, Microsoft has no choice but keeping price parity between PC and console. Because PC games are often much cheaper than digital console games in most countries outside the US, this means that PC gamers will have to pay much more for Windows Store games than for similar (or even the same) games in any other store on PC. Microsoft is charging a ridiculous €69.99 for their 1st party AAA games in the Windows Store, which is €10-€20 more than similar AAA games on Steam. Other publishers seem to charge console prices as well: Resident Evil 7 was €49.99 on Steam when it released, but costed €69.99 in the Windows Store. While Play Anywhere is a great feature for the small minority of PC gamers that also own an Xbox console, it's actually bad for every other PC gamer because they need to pay more.

Price parity also means that PC gamers get the same discounts than console gamers get. Not only are discounts on Xbox much worse and less frequent than on Steam and other stores on PC, the best discounts are also held behind the Xbox Live Gold paywall. For example, Forza Horizon 3 is more than 14 months old, but afaik it's price never got below €40 for people without a Gold subscription.

Last but not least: no more game keys. Steam allows all devs to sell game keys for free, to sell on their own website or in competing 3rd party keystores. For Steam games sold in these stores, the devs don't have to pay Valve the usual 30% cut. By doing this, Valve has created the same kind of competition for digital games than PC gamers used to have for retail games. This has lead to great things like Humble Bundles and cheap sites like CdKeys. Sadly, Microsoft doesn't allow devs to sell keys for Windows Store games at all. Only Microsoft and their official retail partners are allowed to sell keys, which again leads to higher prices than PC gamers are used to have for Steam games.


Open versus closed

Lots of people seem to underestimate what the open nature of the PC platform has done for gaming. To explain this, I would like to quote mister Durante again:

The reason the vast majority of technical gaming innovations have happened and continue to happen on PC is because people can implement them and apply them to existing software arbitrarily, without the knowledge or consent of either Microsoft, or the games' publisher, or by being a hardware driver vendor.

This is no longer true for UWP games, and for Play Anywhere games it's even worse. Devs will be limited to what Microsoft allows for Xbox games, which are known to have a whole bunch of rules and policies. While some of them are to protect the customer, most of them only benefit Microsoft.

So far, Valve has been incredible open towards anything, as long as it doesn't abuse or damage Valve or their customers. Steam allows games in every file format, supports different operating systems, supports every VR set, has universal controller support, and even allows the integration of competing ecosystems (uPlay, Arc etc). Again, Microsoft doesn't allow any of this in the Windows Store.

Also, every feature in Steam is completely optional, including the use of DRM. Meanwhile, games sold in the Windows Store seem to have five layers of DRM. Some of them are mandatory to use for all games, even more if they are using Xbox Live. Despite all of this, UWP games aren't protected against piracy or cheating. Several UWP games are hacked already, and if CheatEngine can read and change variables in UWP games, so can other hacking tools.


Not only for 1st party games

To conclude this post, I'd like to explain why I think PC gamers should ignore the Windows Store until Microsoft fixes the issues mentioned above. People should realize that Microsofts PC gaming "efforts" aren't only for their own games; Microsoft wants 3rd party devs and publishers in their Store and UWP ecosystem as well. They are already making deals with other publishers to get their games in the Windows Store, and they are forcing smaller devs to release their games in the Windows Store as well if they want to release on Xbox One.

Just like Microsoft is competing against Sony in console space by making (timed) exclusivity deals with 3rd party devs and publishers, they will no doubt do the same on PC to compete against Steam as soon as the Windows Store becomes popular enough.

I don't think that should happen, because every game exclusive to the Windows Store means a loss for PC gamers: higher prices, worse discounts, less features, no modding, no community content, no Mac or Linux version etc etc etc. That's why - in my opinion - PC gamers should think twice before they support the Windows Store. There are plenty of other games on PC, sold in stores that respect the perks and open nature of PC gaming.
 
Last edited:

Migs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15
I'm sorry if this question is outside the topic of conversation, but what is the ecosystem called Arc that you listed as an example next to UbiPlay?
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Not sure there is much to worry about if Steam and others exist. PC gamers want open platforms, Microsoft will have a hard time stopping that.

Sure, it's disappointing that Microsoft games won't be open but I doubt it will go far beyond that.
 

Trago

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,605
Not sure there is much to worry about if Steam and others exist. PC gamers want open platforms, Microsoft will have a hard time stopping that.

Sure, it's disappointing that Microsoft games won't be open but I doubt it will go far beyond that.

They'll try to strong-arm developers into implementing UWP if they make Windows 10 S mandatory moving forward. It's a legit concern.
 
OP
OP
Ge0force

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Not sure there is much to worry about if Steam and others exist. PC gamers want open platforms, Microsoft will have a hard time stopping that.

Sure, it's disappointing that Microsoft games won't be open but I doubt it will go far beyond that.

That's why I've added the section "not only for 1st party games". I'm afraid we will see 3rd party devs and publishers embracing the Windows Store and UWP as well once Microsoft can prove that their exclusives are successful.
 

Trago

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,605
That's why I've added the section "not only for 1st party games". I'm afraid we will see 3rd party devs and publishers embracing the Windows Store and UWP as well once Microsoft can prove that their exclusives are successful.
Not sure that will ever happen unless The Windows Store takes off, and honestly most PC gamers who are interested in playing Microsoft's first party games would only ever use the Windows Store for their games and nothing else.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Anything is possible but Microsoft have tried many times before. The money isn't with Microsoft and that's what counts.

As for UWP, couldn't that evolve to be more open, if you want people to move on from Win32 they'll probably have to.
 

snail_maze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
974
Thank you for this, windows store is often just seen as a crap client/marketplace and not as a UWP delivery system which is the bigger concern
 

SolidSnakeUS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,617
UWP should never be a thing. The fact that they are trying a walled off garden approach to games is fucking frightening. If you're doing not only a walled off economy, but a walled off functionality, then you're gonna get fucked. EXEs will never go away. While everything is starting to go digital now instead of physical, guess what? They still use EXE files. So why change a good thing? Oh right, profit and control, because fuck consumers. That's basically how I think MS sees it.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,524
Ibis Island
I still have issues just downloading titles. I've yet to get Gears 4 on my pc since it keeps looping and restarting the download. It's saddening. Since I have a computer with far better specs and my One or a One X.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Yup, windows store still considers my gaming desktop as not being able to run Halo Wars and Halo Wars 2 for some reason. Have tried everything too.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,324
I'll support whatever I want, typically its the lowest price... irregardless of platform or opinion from a stranger.
 

FormatCompatible

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,071
I still have issues just downloading titles. I've yet to get Gears 4 on my pc since it keeps looping and restarting the download. It's saddening. Since I have a computer with far better specs and my One or a One X.
Yep same here. That's the main reason why I won't support the store, it's ridiculous how slow the download speeds are.
 

RF Switch

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,118
What if the reason i dont play games on PC is because id rather have a console type experience? Why cant both Steam and UWP be supported? Why cant the customer make the choice which is what seems to be going on now?
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,764
USA
I just use it a replacement for first party MS games. I'd never buy a third party game on Windows store that's available literally anywhere else.
 
UWP should never be a thing. The fact that they are trying a walled off garden approach to games is fucking frightening. If you're doing not only a walled off economy, but a walled off functionality, then you're gonna get fucked. EXEs will never go away. While everything is starting to go digital now instead of physical, guess what? They still use EXE files. So why change a good thing? Oh right, profit and control, because fuck consumers. That's basically how I think MS sees it.
Uwp is a microsofts answer to chrome books, Android and iOS. Those are the future of computing for the all the young and casual people. If Microsoft wants to remain relevant, something like uwp had to happen. Janky ass, unsecure ass win32 is definitely not it. Microsoft tried pushing that type of thing on its owned and failed so now they are using successful things like traditional windows and Xbox in order to put UWP on. It's not about being a walled garden. It's about remaining relevant in the consumer space. The only reason why MS games are not on steam is because steam doesn't accept uwp because games have to be launched from an executable.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
The Windows Store is simultaneously the worst storefront on PC, and a designated delivery method for UWP, a more restrictive format with long term damaging effects for the entire ecosystem if it were to ever catch on.

There is absolutely no way I would ever use it.
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
Windows Store would have a hard time taking off even if it wasn´t an absolute trainwreck. Steam is just too popular and with games like PUBG that´s not going to change.
 

TeamLeftMatch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,683
If I'm being honest the Windows Store is one of the big factors turning me away from buying Sea of Thieves (that and the fact I don't know anyone else buying the game so I have no one to play it with). It baffles me how Microsoft thought this was a good storefront. I'm aware that Steam didn't have a good launch but that was in 2004 and this is not Microsoft's first attempt at this (Games for Windows live).
 

Klobrille

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,360
Germany
I don't think its a great thing to say people what they should and what they shouldn't do. If there is a great game available, I'll use it. Easy as that. I am where the games are.
 

Sinatar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,684
I have never bought anything from the windows store nor will I, everything about the storefront itself and UWP's is the drizzling shits.
 
Merging PC gaming with Xbox gaming

It's not a secret that Microsofts Xbox One console isn't doing as well as it's competitors from Sony and Nintendo. One of the consequences is that it's not that easy for Microsoft to get exclusive deals with 3rd party devs and publishers anymore. Understandable, because it's a huge risk to exclude the huge audiences on PS4 and Steam.

This is probably one of the reasons why Microsoft is trying to merge PC gaming with Xbox gaming, using UWP, Xbox Live and the Windows Store. By adding the huge PC crowd in the bargain, it will be easier to get exclusivity deals with 3rd party studios and to monetize PC gamers using Xbox Live services.

Trying to merge an open ecosystem (PC) with a closed ecosystem (console) isn't that smart tho. A console has many restrictions that a PC doesn't have. And unlike PC gaming, consoles are still dependable on the retail market and their demands. As a result, Microsofts plan to merge PC gaming with console gaming brings several significant disadvantages of console gaming to PC. Time to explain what I'm talking about.
Microsoft just wants uwp to take off so they can remain relevant in the consumer space. Uwp is not a replacement for Windows anymore than iOS being a replacement for OSX. If uwp takes off, nothing will happen to win32 for PC gaming.
 
Oct 30, 2017
272
I have had no issues downloading anything from the MS Store at all. Well, maybe once early on after Win 10 Launched. But after that, no issues what so ever. That is not to say others have not had these issues, just that I have not. I have never been huge into modding either, dabbled a bit with Morrowind and Skyrim, but that is pretty much it. I usually prefer to play the game as intended from the dev and judge on that personally. I have no issue using the Win Store in the slightest. If a game I want to play is there, I will get it there. I do not have allegiance to any one store, though I generally do game through either Steam or GOG Galaxy. The store front, or whether it is Win32, UWA, or UWP, makes no difference to me.

I just want to play games. Can I do that buying from the Win Store? Yes? Alrighty then, I am good to go.

EDIT: Also, I fully believe that over time the ability to MOD UWPs will be made available. Have not heard anything, nor have any source for it either. I just think that if a dev wants to give customers the ability to MOD the game, they will eventually get there.
 

Samsquanchewans

User Permed at their request
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,257
#NOTJAPAN
In some cases too, despite the good conduct that everyone is giving microsoft for doing Crossplay, for some of the third party game on the Windows Store they refuse to give crossplay with Steam/Origin/uPlay users
, same PC economy. It has gotten to the point that, it became a marketing slogan for some of the games released after. Just look at how barren Call of Duty IW and MWR got on the Windows Stire
 

Kaako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,736
Have had my "new" built gaming PC for about 3 months now. Have not touched the windows store nor planning to anytime in the future. I'd like to see them try and strong arm major 3rd party devs on their garbage.
 

Falcon511

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
I just built a new pc this weekend. Downloaded Halo wars 1 and 2 and Forza horizon 3 . All worked fine except the Download speeds were slow though .like I was only getting 80 on the down. Personally I haven't had a problem with the games. But the store itself is bad . They need to fix the overall package .

Personally I don't care about UWP or win32 and what restrictions or they have. I don't mod my games. I did once in skyrim, thought it was cool and gave zero fucks after that. I still buy games on steam and Fortnite is my most played games on PC right now.

I can understand the hate it gets. I can understand why PC gamers don't like MS. My advice is for those to start the switch to linux and soon ish. MS isn't getting rid of uwp and walking it back.

To be honest I am curious to see what will happen if sea of theives has some success on the windows store. I'm sure there won't be any break downs. /s
 

LordBaztion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,812
Lima Perú
I'm not a PC gamer, I'm a xbox gamer and I like that MS is extending Xbox to PC.
I'm going to get Sea of Thieves with gamepass. With that single license I will be able to play simultaneously from my X1 with my friend from Argentina on his xbox and my brother on my PC.
From the perspective of a xbox player, windows store and play anywhere gives you an incredible deal. I hope it takes off for more publishers to be willing to support play anywhere.
 

Jazzman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
161
Sadly Sea of Thieves pushed me to the M$ store, but that will hopefully be my 1 and only game purchase through them.
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,829
No worries OP. I deleted that piece of garbage from my PC after the unending problems I had with Horizon 3.

The worst thing about PC gaming is that 20+ years of games are held hostage by a company that doesn't care about them in the slightest.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,452
I still have issues just downloading titles. I've yet to get Gears 4 on my pc since it keeps looping and restarting the download. It's saddening. Since I have a computer with far better specs and my One or a One X.

Not to defend the Store or anything, but try running this in PowerShell as an admin:

Code:
Add-AppxPackage -Register ("$(Get-AppxPackage -Name "Microsoft.WindowsStore" | select -ExpandProperty InstallLocation)\appxmanifest.xml") -DisableDevelopmentMode

It'll reinstall the Store app and usually fixes any issues.
 

asd202

Enlightened
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,568
I wonder if time will come when MS will have enough market share on PC when they will dare and try to charge for online like they did on Consoles.
 

scaryrobots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,130
Doing Robot things
I've been a PC gamer all my life and I literally don't care. I'm a fan of Halo and Gears, and if the only way to play them on PC is through the store then that's fine by me.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,631
meh, Steam etc.. is not going anywhere. If support for classic Win32 type applications went away then Windows Marketshare would drop to zero.

Microsoft does not have the same Market power they had in the late 90s so I wouldn't worry. As long as one company doesn't get a grasp on most of the market then it will be fine. And to be honest, I think Steam needs a large competitor like Microsoft. More competition, the better.

Mods, I can see both sides of the story. One wants security and the other wants openness. I think there is a middle ground that Microsoft will find. Won't be as open as it is now, but if a dev wants full mod support, they can build a classic Win32 game.

My biggest issue is from my understanding Microsoft requires the new appx packages to be signed. I assume places like steam could become a trusted signer and distribute them if they wanted.

But I do think Microsoft should drop the requirement though. I should be able to make an application and then deploy it via the web without it needing to be signed.

And yeah Microsoft digital prices are godawful. Still trying to appease the Retailers.

For the most part, I like the new application model, Windows badly needs it.

Anyway, I am not going to limit my digital purchases to one store. I like choices on where to shop. Best thing about PC Gaming.
 
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LuckyLocke

Avenger
Nov 27, 2017
863
It's funny how ms haters like OP always assume the worst possible scenario for every ms initiatives, meanwhile the competition does the exact same thing right under their noses and they don't bat an eye.

UWP is meant for lightweight users and educational purposes. Win32 is not going anywhere anytime soon. Just like macOS isn't going anywhere anytime soon. There are thousands of companies exploiting and actively developing on the win32 platform. Do you really think they will shut down their main revenue stream for small wins in the gaming business?

Come on now.


As for modding, it can be added to a closed ecosystem, it will only require additional efforts on their part to develop the platform. Look at how great steamworks is.
 

Deleted member 2317

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
I won't touch GFWL with a ten foot pole, their exclusives are weak sauce anwyays. Mods are half the reason I buy in PC over consoles so UWP can eat it.

It's also funny to see so many people defend MS in this initiative after their history of PC gaming.
 

Lat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,322
I use the windows store as a companion to my Xbox One experience. I'm 99% digital (1% if there's a steelbook edition). All my UWP games on my gaming laptop is because I purchased it on my xbox one. And I love it. I love that I can play at work, get my achievements, go back home and continue with RE7, Shadow of War, Forza 7 and FH3, etc. I'm also happy that my sub for gamepass will be also useful for my PC gaming.

Am I pissed for not having steam compatible games? Of course not. Because in my situation, I'd have to double dip on games I already purchased.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,444
I'm not a PC gamer, I'm a xbox gamer and I like that MS is extending Xbox to PC.
I'm going to get Sea of Thieves with gamepass. With that single license I will be able to play simultaneously from my X1 with my friend from Argentina on his xbox and my brother on my PC.
From the perspective of a xbox player, windows store and play anywhere gives you an incredible deal. I hope it takes off for more publishers to be willing to support play anywhere.

Pretty much

Just like PC gamers are not obligated to care about features that are good for xbox owners (like play anywhere) I'm not losing my sleep for using it either. So I want Microsoft to fix the goddamn tech issues and then I want it to succeed and more devs getting onboard. Sorry OP.
 
I just use it a replacement for first party MS games. I'd never buy a third party game on Windows store that's available literally anywhere else.
The same goes for me. I would never buy anything I can found elsewhere there.
I wanted FH3, bought the key cheaply and redeemed on the store without problems.
I don't own XBOX and don't plan on buying one so this is the only link and way for me to enjoy games in this ecosystem for unforseenable future.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,491
Austin
Don't worry we don't, but I will definitely buy their games if and when they come to the platform of my choice which is steam. I moved to windows 10 picked up forza horizon 3 but between my hate for windows 10 and all of the issues I've had with the store like huge ass expanded downloads or my group of friends not being able to all connect to a game together because apparently their are torreto issues or something with the service. I went back to windows 7 only use steam and never been happier.
 

708

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
I agree with everything you said. Thanks for taking the time writing this.
Because some people may think that:'"well, personally I don't use mods. Therefore, I don't care about the lack of mods and community made contents". So I'll try (with my broken English :D) to explain some of the things that imo the ability to mod games has done for PC gaming and game industry in general.
Literally every Valve game outside of Half-Life and Left 4 Dead only exists because of modding. Counter-Strike exists because of modding, Portal exists because of modding, Team Fortress exists because of modding, Dota exists because of Modding. Overwatch was inspired by Team Fortress and MOBA genre (which again exists because of mods). LoL was inspired by DOTA. Behemoths like PUBG and Fortnite Battle Royale, dozens of battle royale games/modes that will come out and the entire battle royale genre exist because of modding.
I might be exaggerating, but imo we're getting Japanese games on PC because of Dark Souls. It proved that there's an audience for Japanese games on PC. Dark Souls had a terrible port which as mentioned in the OP, was fixed by Durante's DSfix. At the moment, DSfix has ~450k unique downloads, ~1.9M total downloads and ~5.7 total views on its Nexus Mods page.So it probably did play a role in 3M sales of pc version of Dark Souls. And again, I might be exaggerating, but DSfix probably had a role in the embrace of PC by Japanese devs.
As mentioned in the OP, games are being fixed by community made tools. DSfix was already mentioned. Nier: Automata had a terrible port which Square never bothered to patch and was fixed by the community. Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines is considered one of the best RPGs ever made by a lot of people. But guess what? It was released in a terrible state with A LOT of bugs. It was fixed by the community and can be enjoyed by a lot of people only because of modding. One of the best RPGs (or even best games) of all time would've been lost in time otherwise.
PC gaming absolutely should never get merged with Xbox Gaming and get turned into a closed ecosystem like consoles. Something like this will greatly damage PC gaming and even the whole game industry. Microsoft has proved that they abandon things when they're not leading the market. I just hope that PC games ignore windows store so that Microsoft either release their games in win32 format or if not, leave the pc gaming scene.
English is not my first language, so I apologize if some parts of my post are not understandable.
 

Guardians

Banned
Dec 23, 2017
654
It's always funny that people still complain about everything what Microsoft is doing with the Windows Store but still using Windows as their OS. If you don't like it how Microsoft sells THEIR games through THEIR store than install Linux!
 

Gamesadict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
742
Good post. I've personally decided that if I want to play any of those MS games I might as well buy an Xbox.
I certainly agree with the price issue, they are absolutely terrible in my country compared to those on Steam. In the background Valve recommend a set of fair prices for each country, which only the most greedy of publishers decide to override for higher ones. Those prices are the same as the Windows store, lol. We basically get "overpriced retail store" level of prices in digital form.