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Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
http://podcast.theycreateworlds.com/e/dreams-of-sega/

Above is the link to a podcast that I would highly recommend to all Sega fans and everyone interrested in gaming history, as it tells the story about the downfall of Sega through the perspective of the Japanese - through Japanese sources that were unearthed recently, such as oral histories and newspapers. Previously, alot was told through the American perspective.

A cliffnote version from me
  • Before the success in the early 90's, Sega was run like a start-up and everything went through Hayao Nakayama, and his whims. Such as the hiring of Tom Kalinske and his plans of reducing the price of the Genesis and including a pack-in game for free. Most of the Japanese board did not approve, but through Nakayama Kalinske made his plans a reality
  • Sega grew and had to be a more professional outfit, where middle management weigh in on decision making, rather than just Nakayama. They needed executives for managing the growing overseas business, toys and anime they got into, and also for their theme park ambitions.
  • Sega was diversifying and Nakayama had his roots in arcades and had his sights on becoming the next Disney, through opening hundreds of in-door theme parks throughout the world, which is gonna cost tons and tons of money
  • Sega of America was only just breaking even, because their marketing cost a ton, which middle management saw as a thorn because they also needed a ton of money for the in-door theme park ambitions. So the decision making for Sega of America was scaled way back.
  • The in-door theme parks had just a couple locations opened overseas and were closed after a while. So that failed. To save face Nakayama wanted to merge with Bandai. That also failed. Nakayama left the company
  • Saturn and Dreamcast happened, attempts to turn to American chip-makers and engineers never worked out
  • Isao Okawa, the Chairman of Sega since 1984, became president in 2000. Bizarrely, he was responsible for both keeping Sega in the console market with the Dreamcast due to his personal funds, and also pulling them out of the console market when it all failed.
  • After Okawas tragic death, he put Hideki Sato as his successor, the head of development of all Sega's consoles since SG-1000. Okawa recommended to merge with Sammy, whose president was Hajime Satomi who he knew personally.
  • Hideki Sato and alot of Sega folks were not in favor of merging with Sammy, because it was felt that it was below to get bought by a pachinko maker. Instead he wanted to merge with Namco. That failed. Hideki Sato left after this failed merger, just like Nakayama before it
By 2004, with a new president, Hisao Oguchi, long time Sega producer as well, gave in to Sammy, and Sega Sammy Holdings was formed. Seems like nobody really could escape the Sammy merger. Even Rikiya Nakagawa, an old arcade developer who was rumored to dislike the idea, ended up joining Sammy for a while anyway!

Crazy stuff, highly recommend listen to it yourself!
 
Jul 7, 2021
3,155
So, judging by the first point, I bet this is going all-in favoring Tom Kalinske as some sort of savior of SEGA? I'm honestly tired of hearing about that man's twisted truths and outright lies. Example: https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?29801-Is-Tom-Kalinske-full-of-it

We haven't heard any insight from SEGA of Japan's side of things outside of what is published in the book SEGA Mega Drive: Collected Works and the excellent site mdshock. I'll take this with a grain of salt.
 
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Caiusto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,986
Man, Sega was such a mess, they were great on different parts of the industry but everyone wanted to say what the other should do and the results speak for itself.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,475
am I confusing stories or didn't the talks with Namco go super poorly because Sega wasn't acting in good faith? I seem to recall reading that Sega was doing some scummy shit behind the scenes and Namco pulled out because of that.
 
OP
OP
Dooble

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
So, judging by the first point, I bet this is going all-in favoring Tom Kalinske as some sort of savior of SEGA? I'm honestly tired of hearing about that man's twisted truths and outright lies. Example: https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?29801-Is-Tom-Kalinske-full-of-it

We haven't heard any insight from SEGA of Japan's side of things outside of what is published in the book SEGA Mega Drive: Collected Works and the excellent site mdshock. I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Alot of the info from the podcast is from MDShock

am I confusing stories or didn't the talks with Namco go super poorly because Sega wasn't acting in good faith? I seem to recall reading that Sega was doing some scummy shit behind the scenes and Namco pulled out

Parent company CSK wanted the merger with Sammy, and Sato went behind their back, unbeknown to them.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.
 

tohlew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
391
I tried to download from that link, but it says I need the Podbean app. I used their RSS feed in my regular podcast app but this particular episode doesn't seem to be up yet :(
 

Joltik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,768
It's wild that Sega almost merged with the two companies that eventually became Bandai Namco.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,891
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.
I can't get behind any of this.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,971
Sega's worst enemy was always Sega. They had the tech, they had the games but high level decision making was severely lacking.
 

alphacat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,941
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.

I don't agree with any of this lol
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,197
It's crazy how so many of Sega's wounds are self-inflicted. They really were/are their own worst enemy.

I'm probably 100% wrong on this, but I think there was a portion of SoJ that absolutely did not want to participate in the "console wars" (and the expensive marketing that came with it). The arcades were their strongest market, and they saw the Mega Drive and its porting capabilities as an extension of that.
 

JaredTaco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
710
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.

The Sega Saturn certainly lacked a wide selection of third party titles in North America and Europe, but Genesis and Dreamcast had plenty of third party support. And SEGA's first party software was always super high quality. The first party titles at times didn't cater to mainstream gamer tastes, but that was part of what made SEGA special.
 

Yesterday

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,285
revisiting past Sega console libraries is definitely a different experience using emulators and ODEs compared to buying the games at the time but id say the library is more entertaining to dabble in these days compared to NES through Gamecube Nintendo stuff.
 

GK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,922
Thanks for the recommendation, OP. I downloaded the episode and a bunch of others.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,548
Looking forward to checking this out. Sega's rise and fail was a messy yet very interesting part of videogame history.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.
really? I don't see how you can that, Sega had incredible third party support and look at stuff like the saturn and dream cast. Yes they failed but damn the libraries are top notch.
 

darkhunger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,272
USA
Funny how Sega was since it's founding in the 40s and 60s and even it's successes in the 90s always a sum of its hybrid American and Japanese roots yet its constant failure to bring the two parts together was what caused it's downfall.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,891
I will check out the podcast. It sounds like it has a lot of details.


Agreed. It's amazing how people forget that even Nintendo has released mediocre games, just like every other big company.
Even ignoring Nintendo's mediocre titles, Sega covered a dozen more genres and often with quality games. It's just a crazy statement all around unless you only limit "Sega" to a few series. I won't argue with anybody saying Nintendo had higher highs, but their first party has huge gaping holes in it.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,434
Columbus, OH
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read on this site
 

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,502
Seattle, WA.
Sega's worst enemy was always Sega. They had the tech, they had the games but high level decision making was severely lacking.
This, Sega didn't need competition to do them in, they did themselves in. Just hearing how insistent Nakayama was about immediately opening theme park game centers rather than waiting and building capital and financial reserves over a decade or two before stepping into that and undercutting the successful U.S. branch in the process is their bad business sense in a nutshell.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,395
Sega of America gave the company its highest highs but also did not help at all with the Saturn's global failure. While there are some hits from western Sega development during the Genesis all of their games on the Saturn sucked.

They did make a huge comeback with their sports outings during the Dreamcast era but by then it was far too late.
 

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,502
Seattle, WA.
Sega of America gave the company its highest highs but also did not help at all with the Saturn's global failure. While there are some hits from western Sega development during the Genesis all of their games on the Saturn sucked.
Hard to get anything done when the Japanese branch is strong-arming the U.S. branch out of every business decision they attempted for the U.S. market at that point.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,395
Hard to get anything done when the Japanese branch is strong-arming the U.S. branch out of every business decision they attempted for the U.S. market at that point.
While true after watching a lot of Sega Lord X and really thinking about it I don't think SoA released a single good Saturn game.
 

gnomed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,299
US
That mediocre Sega post is wild. Third party support was extremely huge with Genesis. I'll make an even bolder claim. The support from EA alone probably helped the Sega branding in North America. It's what kept Nintendo competitive in the 16bit era continuing onwards until they stopped producing their own major sports games.
 

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,502
Seattle, WA.
While true after watching a lot of Sega Lord X and really thinking about it I don't think SoA released a single good Saturn game.
A lot of that was because they didn't receive a proper Saturn development kit or proper development tools at all until very late into the Saturn's lifespan. the Sonic-Xtreme debacle is basically what STI was dealing with at that time in a microcosm. Shows how screwed up Sega of Japan's priorities are when their most profitable market (North America) was a total afterthought for a console launch that they didn't even supply proper development tools before the system launched.
 
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andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,434
Columbus, OH
That mediocre Sega post is wild. Third party support was extremely huge with Genesis. I'll make an even bolder claim. The support from EA alone probably helped the Sega branding in North America. It's what kept Nintendo competitive in the 16bit era continuing onwards until they stopped producing their own major sports games.

It's weird because the software libraries for the Sega consoles from the MD/Genesis onward had… no real deficits in terms of genre availability. Early on, SEGA handled so many of their own ports of third party titles. It is laughable to suggest the MD was lacking compared to the SNES. Even the Saturn had much better third party support (and overall genre representation) compared to the N64.
 

Scarlett

Member
Dec 5, 2020
1,168
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.

Not even much of a Sega fan, but I'm not down with this.

Leaning on the Seal of Quality, ha.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,891
Sega of America gave the company its highest highs but also did not help at all with the Saturn's global failure. While there are some hits from western Sega development during the Genesis all of their games on the Saturn sucked.

They did make a huge comeback with their sports outings during the Dreamcast era but by then it was far too late.
Well I enjoyed Three Dirty Dwarves….that might be it. Who did the soccer games? I liked those.
 

Rurouni

Member
Dec 25, 2017
1,387
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.
Strongly disagree with A LOT of this, good lord.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
A lot of first party Sega games didn't appeal to me. I would say, yes, Genesis had the most amount of first party games that I could appreciate. For sure Sonic 1-3, Sonic & Knuckles, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star, Shining Force, Shenmue and Skies of Arcadia were great. Those are the ones that stood out to me as a kid. Never got around to checking out Dragon Force, Panzer Dragoon and Magic Knight Rayearth. It may have been more of a marketing issue, as Nintendo games seemed to be exposed to me a lot more frequently. But I don't know, games like Vectorman, Ecco the Dolphin, Seaman, and Space Channel 5 I didn't want to play.

Edit: Alright sorry. I won't make Sega fans hate me even further. Carry on.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
962
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.

lmao
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,825
1, thank you so much this is gonna be a good listen.

2, I bought but never actually sat down to read my copy of Console Wars. I know at the launch people were a tad dismissive over its 'style' or how it portrayed so-called real events, but I think the author/publisher/book itself said as much as well at the time? I will give it another go as I listen to this.

EDIT: Yes this is a brazen attempt to avert such off-topic de-railing happening before my eyes.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,891
1, thank you so much this is gonna be a good listen.

2, I bought but never actually sat down to read my copy of Console Wars. I know at the launch people were a tad dismissive over its 'style' or how it portrayed so-called real events, but I think the author/publisher/book itself said as much as well at the time? I will give it another go as I listen to this.

EDIT: Yes this is a brazen attempt to avert such off-topic de-railing happening before my eyes.
No! You must pile on!

I just downloaded the episode for future listening. Didn't understand from OP this was a two year old episode in a long running podcast and thought this was a new series just about Sega.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,246
A lot of first party Sega games didn't appeal to me. I would say, yes, Genesis had the most amount of first party games that I could appreciate. For sure Sonic 1-3, Sonic & Knuckles, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star, Shining Force, Shenmue and Skies of Arcadia were great. Those are the ones that stood out to me as a kid. Never got around to checking out Dragon Force, Panzer Dragoon and Magic Knight Rayearth. It may have been more of a marketing issue, as Nintendo games seemed to be exposed to me a lot more frequently. But I don't know, games like Vectorman, Ecco the Dolphin, Seaman, and Space Channel 5 I didn't want to play.

Edit: Alright sorry. I won't make Sega fans hate me even further. Carry on.
You are pretty much forgetting genre standards such as Virtua Fighter, Outrun/Daytona/Sega Rally/HangOn, Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis, Jet Grind/Set Radio, Shinobi. IMO where Sega didn't transition too well is in making longer lasting single player games, ie you could play Marios, Zeldas, Metroids for about 6 - 10 hours, Sega focused more on tight controlling arcade experiences that were shorter.
 

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,502
Seattle, WA.
I bought but never actually sat down to read my copy of Console Wars. I know at the launch people were a tad dismissive over its 'style' or how it portrayed so-called real events, but I think the author/publisher/book itself said as much as well at the time? I will give it another go as I listen to this.
Watch the documentary if you get a chance, a better execution of what the book was attempting to do because they got everyone involved (Kalinske, Al Nilsen, Shinobu Toyoda, Howard Lincoln, etc) to do actual sit-down interviews and discuss what happened rather than re-telling it as dramatic narrative.
 

Uniomni

Banned
Jun 13, 2022
1,891
Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.
I agree.

I just remember weighing the library of games my best friend had(Genesis) vs what my cousin had(Snes) and man if me and my best friend didn't both always chip in to have my cousin come over.

On an enthusiast forum like this you'll get pushback but man your feelings aren't isolated.

Cue the importers coming to hit us with the WA energy.

To the thread premise though, I didn't learn how bad Sega was at the actual business side of things until almost a decade after they folded their hardware side.

I just remember my cousins(same one referenced earlier) despondency when the Dreamcast went under and Sega went 3rd party.

He was damn near in tears.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
5,000
I think folks may be off in terms of Sega's third party support, at least from Japanese publishers. Square, Enix, Capcom, and, Konami were primarily putting their games on Nintendo platforms back in the day.

Western third parties were definitely a different story though.
 

Gearkeeper 8A

Member
Oct 27, 2017
626
Sega destiny was sealed the moment they began expand on things that werent games and having an internal power struggle between 2 regions doesnt help.

This is why i think Nintendo grounded NOA freedom during the N64-gamecube they didnt want any of that, and i think the modern conflict between Playstation branchs is a repeat of that but less problematic.
 

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,933
I'm so glad I got to check out Sega World Sydney as a kid. Definitely an only in the 90s experience!
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,434
Columbus, OH
I agree.

I just remember weighing the library of games my best friend had(Genesis) vs what my cousin had(Snes) and man if me and my best friend didn't both always chip in to have my cousin come over.

On an enthusiast forum like this you'll get pushback but man your feelings aren't isolated.

Cue the importers coming to hit us with the WA energy.

To the thread premise though, I didn't learn how bad Sega was at the actual business side of things until almost a decade after they folded their hardware side.


I just remember my cousins(same one referenced earlier) despondency when the Dreamcast went under and Sega went 3rd party.

He was damn near in tears.

I had an SNES, Genesis and TG16 during their hey day and this post is all sorts of wrong.

Each system had their own strengths and weaknesses. I can easily see how one person would prefer the library of another. It's not like there was a universal consensus back then as to which console was definitively better.


I think folks may be off in terms of Sega's third party support, at least from Japanese publishers. Square, Enix, Capcom, and, Konami were primarily putting their games on Nintendo platforms back in the day.

Western third parties were definitely a different story though.

Capcom licensed their properties to SEGA and eventually developer for the Genesis on the strength of its western sales, the system was a niche hardcore gaming one in Japan.

Konami equally spread out their titles between the SFC, PC platforms (their MSX games for example) and the PC-Engine though. Their biggest cultural phenomenon in Japan that wasn't an arcade game first was the PC-Engine Tokimeki Memorial.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,856
Vice City
will hit this up tomorrow, thanks OP

Sega game libraries always felt so lacking. I think Sega had the same third party issue that Nintendo still has, in which third party games are second fiddle to the well known first party Sega or Nintendo games, however, for Sega it was worse because their first party games were inconsistent in quality, while Nintendo could always boast about that Nintendo Seal of Quality. Clearly Nintendo has a longer list of strong first party IPs.

I agree.

I just remember weighing the library of games my best friend had(Genesis) vs what my cousin had(Snes) and man if me and my best friend didn't both always chip in to have my cousin come over.

On an enthusiast forum like this you'll get pushback but man your feelings aren't isolated.

Cue the importers coming to hit us with the WA energy.

To the thread premise though, I didn't learn how bad Sega was at the actual business side of things until almost a decade after they folded their hardware side.

I just remember my cousins(same one referenced earlier) despondency when the Dreamcast went under and Sega went 3rd party.

He was damn near in tears.

real sorry to hear y'all never got to explore the library, or had poor taste in the day~
for real though, saturn needed imports but genesis/megadrive and dreamcast, if you missed the quality that's on you. SNES had a likewise fantastic library but depending on the genres you were into/actually checked out, you missed out heavily just relying on that one - hate to see it

*haha "seal of quality", man the marketing game back then was strong (says a fan of blast processing™