In a 2015 interview Sakurai directly criticized CERO for being tough on sexual content in rating of Smash 4, naming altering of Palutena's underwear as his main disappointment. He definitely would put fanservice in Smash if he could.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
In a 2015 interview Sakurai directly criticized CERO for being tough on sexual content in rating of Smash 4, naming altering of Palutena's underwear as his main disappointment. He definitely would put fanservice in Smash if he could.
The Palutena trailer was really egregious, and I remember thinking that immediately when seeing it back then. Opens up on a close up shot of her boobs and ass in slomo.
edit-Like really, what is this shit
One reason why some may find those male designs lame and uninteresting is because of the abundance of them while there just isn't for the same style of female characters.
Personally I don't find either lame and am fine with those male characters and just want more of the female version as well, and less of the super pandering designs.
No hard feelings, i can understand that when someone randomly enters the thread for the first time ^^"
I just dont really like the trope/type by itself (stronly inspired by western holywood representation) just plain boring, irrelevant of the gender. But since we have to have them (they sell, a lot of people like them, and the Holywood influenced cultural view IS there) i would prefere them to at least have other gender/race equivalents, and dont just have duded.
Thats why while im not a huge fan, i prefere her to another dude every day. Not having much representation for middle aged women makes it feel fresh, more interesting.
Completly off topic: i was today years old when i found out that wendy carlos (clockwork orange, shining, tron) is female. Reason i had a male in mind: the cover to switched-on-bach.
I find those designs for joel and Sam boring but that's just me, they are also super generic in my opinion. I kid you not when I first saw the announcement trailer for the original last of us I thought joel was an older nathan drake in an alternate timeline world where he didn't stop the eldorado virus from getting off that island. He just shared to many similarities in design, plus it was a naughty dog, property I understood it wasn't by the second trailer but I seriously thought that for a while
With Sam, you mean from Uncharted 4? I honestly thought his design was a little more interesting because they made him at least slightly less "traditionally handsome". Sort of balding and didn't look like a model.
I was more offering a reasoning as to why people may be fine with the "boring" equivalent design of the main character in Returnal; it's rarity comparatively. My opinions on those designs across the board aren't really relevant, just as another take as to why even at a base level there may also be people that love the design of Returnal's character even if it was super prevalent.
I guess I'm just a person that prefers more, for lack of a better word, ordinary designs where the details may be more subtle. I also would prefer older characters across the board. We get that a lot more with male characters and it tends to be why I prefer those games and don't think I would be alone in saying that I would like more of it in terms of female characters. Returnal's character design is the "boring" equivalent to, as AnimaRize said, Joel and Sam that I have been hoping for.
On a side note, it could be cool though to have a thread celebrating women in games for the month.
no i thought we were talking about the guy from dayz gone. the guy who dressed like delsin rowe, is that guy name sam? Honestly i misread death stranding
That thread would immediately become a thread of the forum's favourite anime waifus. 🤷
The Palutena trailer was really egregious, and I remember thinking that immediately when seeing it back then. Opens up on a close up shot of her boobs and ass in slomo.
edit-Like really, what is this shit
It's amazing they didn't do that with the Xeno characters. Or they did and I missed it.
First post, celebrating the newest cross series addition to Smash; Pyra and Mythra!
( ._.)
More characters with "ordinary" designs is the problem. Ordinary almost always means "US american" if we go exotic its maybe a UK/Australian actor they are modeled by.
Being in europe, watching more indie movies from europe than Hollywood movies, seing character types from different ages and cultures...Yeah, its not ordinary, its a concrete style they are aiming. Its US-American, the look they get from TV and cinema.
As i see it:i would prefere for japan to not focus su much on teens, and indies to have less little cute children in the focus when you see the character, with western AAA games i get this focus on middle aged characters a lot and would prefere some mix ups. Maybe thats just a biased view and its less extreme than i feel it is.
Oh you mean Deacon. I honestly think his design is interesting too, but just imo of course. He has his shirt off in a few scenes and he actually has a kind of average body type and isn't even muscular.
Yea I was thinking that too. Maybe if it was done like how Neoxon handled the BHM thread for characters in an organized way.
How much media in any medium around the world is based on middle aged women? We are mostly considered are life as over by the time we hit 30. And that's ignoring that in TV and film the women in all roles both major and background only accounts for something like 17%. You are complaining about something that isn't really relevant to this topic.
I could see something more like... very controlled drip-feed. characters vetted by the community of women then posted for discussion. like "Bio/overview of X character, discuss"
Highlight one at a time each day instead of it being a "post the women you appreciate".
I don't know, it's the internet, filled with men and games, someone will be like "here is why red saber has a see through skirt! you will feel ashamed of your words and deeds: A thesis by footlover"
Yea that could be a good idea actually.
I can already picture at least 10 posts of 2b and a bunch of Pyra and Mythra on the first page of a "post the ones you appreciate" thread if it was just that.
Honestly would probably be more interested in highlighting the devs, reporters and actresses who are woman and work in the gaming industry rather than characters, it's the only way I see it not totally turning into a boy's locker room, and honestly in this forum it always tends to be men that get highlighted for their work, it would be pretty cool to see some women, though it would probably be more work
I feel like anyone who complains about the Returnal mc didn't grow up with Sarah Connor or Ripley as characters. Literally the vibe I got from her instantly.
I'll quote myself:
My post was more a response to the second part of apathetic's post which i read in a more general way. You are right that it was somewhat of topic.
Actually that could be even better. Sadly I doubt that thread would get barely any traction though.
Here's my issue is the average these characters dress the harder for me to remember the characters based on designs alone the characters themselves have to put in the extra work. It's kind of why i prefer stylized designs over functional ones, the more unique you can make your character look in my opinion the better. So personally its easier for me to remember lets say a handsome jack with me not playing the game
than it would be a nathan drake with me not playing the game
i've played both of these by the way.
but that is my personal preference
Honestly, that could be part of it.
But i generally have reservations of this because it could just become a hit-list for online harassment from dudes who would feel excluded.
That's fair, it comes down to personal taste. For me, it's just hard personally to really be able to take stories/characters seriously, especially if they are meant to be that. It's why I vibe so much with realistic styled and setting games. I just can connect with those characters more since they are written and designed to be relatively close to real life.Here's my issue is the average these characters dress the harder for me to remember the characters based on designs alone the characters themselves have to put in the extra work. It's kind of why i prefer stylized designs over functional ones, the more unique you can make your character look in my opinion the better. So personally its easier for me to remember lets say a handsome jack with me not playing the game
than it would be a nathan drake with me not playing the game
i've played both of these by the way.
but that is my personal preference
That is sadly true, it's always a worry when you highlight real women that you might just end up directing abuse at them. And then it's a Catch 22 cus then they don't get the same kudos or recognition as men get and also how important social media reach is nowadays that it can really limit careers. And now I've just made myself depressed :/
Speaking from experience as someone who has and is in the process of doing qualitative research and such, i'd also be reticent to do something like this as a fan-product without the direct permission of those highlighted. Most developers are not public figures even though they're often public-figure adjacent.
for me it's usually dependent on the world the characters or in, if every character of that world or character's race dresses that way i can suspend my disbelief over if the characters look ridiculous, everyone in that world does, now i will likely criticize it when i get done playing especially if the sexualization is over the top. but it's not going to hurt me while playing it because every character dresses like that in that games world.
now when it comes to games based on our reality i understand why realism is preferable. I'd still like it if the character designed popped with it's own uniqueness. give the character a jacket they like to where, a scarf, some knee and elbow pads something to make them stand out from crowd. remember i initially didn't think that joel and nathan were 2 different people when last of us was initially announced. I prefer it when i could look at an image or silhouette of a character and immediately recognize the character without having to play the game
Guess I didn't mean to imply that "ordinary" has to mean white, but when thinking about it the only counter example that comes to mind is Ghost of Tsushima.
This is something that I agree with and why I add quotations to "ordinary" and try not to say realistic. Fitting the world setting the work is in is important. I want more games with older/non perfect/non pandering character designs in non realistic settings just as much as any other genre.
Amusingly, that was also the only one i had in mind, and thats from just ~ 6 months ago.
Thats something im 100% behind.
Appealing to the type of fanbase that would think Pyra is a good character.The Palutena trailer was really egregious, and I remember thinking that immediately when seeing it back then. Opens up on a close up shot of her boobs and ass in slomo.
edit-Like really, what is this shit
Yea but it's weird because I played Kid Icarus Uprising, and while I hated the controls and didn't really like the humor, her character wasn't like that in the game at least. So it's even worse than Pyra in that regard.
But it was in most of the extended materials like the short used to promote the game that nintendo made
This video just popped up in my feed and I found it pretty interesting. The YouTuber Jill Bearup goes over how creators could make a sensible armor for women that conforms to fantasy aesthetics and critiques a number of "armor" designs in movies and games like Skyrim and League of Legends.
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Oh, they did. The reveal at the Ninty Direct literally has a rotating, upward panning shot starting at Pyra's butt.
Ironically that's at least less egregious than the Palutena one, but also just because it's a gameplay clip. Zero Suit Samus's brawl intro is maybe the worst.
Want to be anymore obvious?
So yeah, the only thing keeping Smash from going full horndog is the E10+ rating.Ironically that's at least less egregious than the Palutena one, but also just because it's a gameplay clip. Zero Suit Samus's brawl intro is maybe the worst.
Want to be anymore obvious?
Male gaze shots introducing women has been a thing for a long, long ass time. It's well ingrained into cinematography conventions independent of otaku pandering.
I just played a old game that did that the other day oddly enough!
I remember the push back I got on here for pointing out that twintelle's reveal trailer starts with a wide pan shot of her ass. And then there's the weird moaning like sounds playing throughout the trailer. Because of course the only black woman in the game gets sexed up.
For something that is hopefully a bit positive: Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend? I suspect there are a lot of difficult choices because Smash has so few women to begin with. And those who do appear mostly adhere to a narrow set of standards--fair skinned, youthful, conventionally attractive, and non-threatening. There are a lot of opportunities for a diverse presence--far more than a Fighter's Pass, a game, or even a series to encompass, to be honest.
I would like to recommend Raji from Raji: An Ancient Epic
Raji has a highly unusual combination of characteristics that makes her particularly good--and difficult to duplicate.
Most users in this topic have seen the tokenism excuse: If you pick a character just because they are <insert group here>, then you are fulfilling a quota. That should not be an obstacle to getting some characters to represent underrepresented groups, but it can be a legitimate problem if all of the characters are supporting characters, from indie games, from mobile games, or a combination of the above. If all 6 characters are like that, then it can create a harmful association--similar to the Korean game = grindy MMORPG, made in China = cheap and shoddy type associates. I think a character who can avoid this pattern is a good choice--not the only choice, of course.
Here is Raji. She is the protagonist--no skipping over the protagonist to get to her. Her game uses the Unreal Engine and has a reasonable budget (it is actually an indie game, though). And it is a retail game released on PC and consoles--not a mobage.
One way to avoid only selecting indie and/or mobile games is to pick supporting characters (or the occasional protagonist) from a small set of mainstream series. Why should we not? If Nintendo can pick Pyra/Mythra because they are more popular then Rex, then certainly it can pick someone like Sheva (Resident Evil 5). But there can be some issues when the character is a dominant culture looking at a relatively marginalized one. For example, Farah Karim (Call of Duty) is a practically dressed and competent Muslim woman, but she is also in a game that glorifies the American military as it invades a fictional Middle Eastern country. Plus it is a missed opportunity to pick a character who is the dominant culture looking at the marginalized culture--after all, we have good games from indigenous groups, Africans, Muslims, etc. Since Raji was made by an Indian studio, you get the best of both worlds.
I do not mean that the choices have to meet all these criteria, but it is certainly good to highlight someone who does. Pity the ResetEra topic on the game basically died with no activity.
About Raji's appearance: She is youthful and conventionally beautiful, so she is not breaking new grounds there. Her outfit exposes her belly and is not practical for a warrior. But it is a traditional Indian outfit in a game inspired by Hindu mythology. With everything else going for her, I think it is fine in context.
Side note: I am tempted to ask this question ("Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend?") as a thread. Good idea/bad idea?
I would like to recommend Raji from Raji: An Ancient Epic
Raji has a highly unusual combination of characteristics that makes her particularly good--and difficult to duplicate.
- She has noticeably darker skin than the characters in the game--not Black or even on the darker side for Indians but obviously darker than the characters in the game.
- She is the protagonist of the game.
- She is unabashedly Hindu-inspired--and so is the game.
- Her game was made by Indian lead creatives at an Indian game studio.
- She comes from a prestige game--a reasonably budgeted commercial retail game that is on the PC and consoles.
- The game has a feminist take on Hindu mythology, placing Durga at the head of the pantheon (replacing the male Brahma) and putting the goddesses and other women of the mythology in the forefront.
- She is minimally sexualized. Her dress exposes her midriff (not easily visible in this picture), but the game is isometric, it is a stylized Indian dress, and there are no other sexualizing elements.
Most users in this topic have seen the tokenism excuse: If you pick a character just because they are <insert group here>, then you are fulfilling a quota. That should not be an obstacle to getting some characters to represent underrepresented groups, but it can be a legitimate problem if all of the characters are supporting characters, from indie games, from mobile games, or a combination of the above. If all 6 characters are like that, then it can create a harmful association--similar to the Korean game = grindy MMORPG, made in China = cheap and shoddy type associates. I think a character who can avoid this pattern is a good choice--not the only choice, of course.
Here is Raji. She is the protagonist--no skipping over the protagonist to get to her. Her game uses the Unreal Engine and has a reasonable budget (it is actually an indie game, though). And it is a retail game released on PC and consoles--not a mobage.
One way to avoid only selecting indie and/or mobile games is to pick supporting characters (or the occasional protagonist) from a small set of mainstream series. Why should we not? If Nintendo can pick Pyra/Mythra because they are more popular then Rex, then certainly it can pick someone like Sheva (Resident Evil 5). But there can be some issues when the character is a dominant culture looking at a relatively marginalized one. For example, Farah Karim (Call of Duty) is a practically dressed and competent Muslim woman, but she is also in a game that glorifies the American military as it invades a fictional Middle Eastern country. Plus it is a missed opportunity to pick a character who is the dominant culture looking at the marginalized culture--after all, we have good games from indigenous groups, Africans, Muslims, etc. Since Raji was made by an Indian studio, you get the best of both worlds.
I do not mean that the choices have to meet all these criteria, but it is certainly good to highlight someone who does. Pity the ResetEra topic on the game basically died with no activity.
About Raji's appearance: She is youthful and conventionally beautiful, so she is not breaking new grounds there. Her outfit exposes her belly and is not practical for a warrior. But it is a traditional Indian outfit in a game inspired by Hindu mythology. With everything else going for her, I think it is fine in context.
Side note: I am tempted to ask this question ("Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend?") as a thread. Good idea/bad idea?
Personally I think she's dope and would be down, but the smash fan base would flip their shit if she got in, on the spectrum of VG history that smash prides itself on I don't think she would even be on Nintendos radar to get in either, they want someone they can market. The large amount of hate solely from people going "who?" Is the reason I think she has no chance. Even as a rep as a unique indie rep people would complain that it's not shovel knight, hollow knight, shantae, sans etc. I'd love to be proven wrong though.For something that is hopefully a bit positive: Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend? I suspect there are a lot of difficult choices because Smash has so few women to begin with. And those who do appear mostly adhere to a narrow set of standards--fair skinned, youthful, conventionally attractive, and non-threatening. There are a lot of opportunities for a diverse presence--far more than a Fighter's Pass, a game, or even a series to encompass, to be honest.
I would like to recommend Raji from Raji: An Ancient Epic
Raji has a highly unusual combination of characteristics that makes her particularly good--and difficult to duplicate.
I think points 1 and 6 do not need an explanation given the context of this topic, so I would like to highlight the importance of points 2-5 in combination. One advantage is that it squarely defeats the tokenism issue. Another advantage is that it is the character's own culture telling its own story.
- She has noticeably darker skin than the characters in the game--not Black or even on the darker side for Indians but obviously darker than the characters in the game.
- She is the protagonist of the game.
- She is unabashedly Hindu-inspired--and so is the game.
- Her game was made by Indian lead creatives at an Indian game studio.
- She comes from a prestige game--a reasonably budgeted commercial retail game that is on the PC and consoles.
- The game has a feminist take on Hindu mythology, placing Durga at the head of the pantheon (replacing the male Brahma) and putting the goddesses and other women of the mythology in the forefront.
- She is minimally sexualized. Her dress exposes her midriff (not easily visible in this picture), but the game is isometric, it is a stylized Indian dress, and there are no other sexualizing elements.
Most users in this topic have seen the tokenism excuse: If you pick a character just because they are <insert group here>, then you are fulfilling a quota. That should not be an obstacle to getting some characters to represent underrepresented groups, but it can be a legitimate problem if all of the characters are supporting characters, from indie games, from mobile games, or a combination of the above. If all 6 characters are like that, then it can create a harmful association--similar to the Korean game = grindy MMORPG, made in China = cheap and shoddy type associates. I think a character who can avoid this pattern is a good choice--not the only choice, of course.
Here is Raji. She is the protagonist--no skipping over the protagonist to get to her. Her game uses the Unreal Engine and has a reasonable budget (it is actually an indie game, though). And it is a retail game released on PC and consoles--not a mobage.
One way to avoid only selecting indie and/or mobile games is to pick supporting characters (or the occasional protagonist) from a small set of mainstream series. Why should we not? If Nintendo can pick Pyra/Mythra because they are more popular then Rex, then certainly it can pick someone like Sheva (Resident Evil 5). But there can be some issues when the character is a dominant culture looking at a relatively marginalized one. For example, Farah Karim (Call of Duty) is a practically dressed and competent Muslim woman, but she is also in a game that glorifies the American military as it invades a fictional Middle Eastern country. Plus it is a missed opportunity to pick a character who is the dominant culture looking at the marginalized culture--after all, we have good games from indigenous groups, Africans, Muslims, etc. Since Raji was made by an Indian studio, you get the best of both worlds.
I do not mean that the choices have to meet all these criteria, but it is certainly good to highlight someone who does. Pity the ResetEra topic on the game basically died with no activity.
About Raji's appearance: She is youthful and conventionally beautiful, so she is not breaking new grounds there. Her outfit exposes her belly and is not practical for a warrior. But it is a traditional Indian outfit in a game inspired by Hindu mythology. With everything else going for her, I think it is fine in context.
Side note: I am tempted to ask this question ("Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend?") as a thread. Good idea/bad idea?
Yea, the only indie I could see them putting in is maybe Shantae because the Nintendo connection. Which is unfortunate because it is some good representation....but her design, yea.
That game has been on my wishlist on Psprices for a while. It looks fantastic I just can't justify it with my overwhelming backlog as it is.For something that is hopefully a bit positive: Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend? I suspect there are a lot of difficult choices because Smash has so few women to begin with. And those who do appear mostly adhere to a narrow set of standards--fair skinned, youthful, conventionally attractive, and non-threatening. There are a lot of opportunities for a diverse presence--far more than a Fighter's Pass, a game, or even a series to encompass, to be honest.
I would like to recommend Raji from Raji: An Ancient Epic
Raji has a highly unusual combination of characteristics that makes her particularly good--and difficult to duplicate.
I think points 1 and 6 do not need an explanation given the context of this topic, so I would like to highlight the importance of points 2-5 in combination. One advantage is that it squarely defeats the tokenism issue. Another advantage is that it is the character's own culture telling its own story.
- She has noticeably darker skin than the characters in the game--not Black or even on the darker side for Indians but obviously darker than the characters in the game.
- She is the protagonist of the game.
- She is unabashedly Hindu-inspired--and so is the game.
- Her game was made by Indian lead creatives at an Indian game studio.
- She comes from a prestige game--a reasonably budgeted commercial retail game that is on the PC and consoles.
- The game has a feminist take on Hindu mythology, placing Durga at the head of the pantheon (replacing the male Brahma) and putting the goddesses and other women of the mythology in the forefront.
- She is minimally sexualized. Her dress exposes her midriff (not easily visible in this picture), but the game is isometric, it is a stylized Indian dress, and there are no other sexualizing elements.
Most users in this topic have seen the tokenism excuse: If you pick a character just because they are <insert group here>, then you are fulfilling a quota. That should not be an obstacle to getting some characters to represent underrepresented groups, but it can be a legitimate problem if all of the characters are supporting characters, from indie games, from mobile games, or a combination of the above. If all 6 characters are like that, then it can create a harmful association--similar to the Korean game = grindy MMORPG, made in China = cheap and shoddy type associates. I think a character who can avoid this pattern is a good choice--not the only choice, of course.
Here is Raji. She is the protagonist--no skipping over the protagonist to get to her. Her game uses the Unreal Engine and has a reasonable budget (it is actually an indie game, though). And it is a retail game released on PC and consoles--not a mobage.
One way to avoid only selecting indie and/or mobile games is to pick supporting characters (or the occasional protagonist) from a small set of mainstream series. Why should we not? If Nintendo can pick Pyra/Mythra because they are more popular then Rex, then certainly it can pick someone like Sheva (Resident Evil 5). But there can be some issues when the character is a dominant culture looking at a relatively marginalized one. For example, Farah Karim (Call of Duty) is a practically dressed and competent Muslim woman, but she is also in a game that glorifies the American military as it invades a fictional Middle Eastern country. Plus it is a missed opportunity to pick a character who is the dominant culture looking at the marginalized culture--after all, we have good games from indigenous groups, Africans, Muslims, etc. Since Raji was made by an Indian studio, you get the best of both worlds.
I do not mean that the choices have to meet all these criteria, but it is certainly good to highlight someone who does. Pity the ResetEra topic on the game basically died with no activity.
About Raji's appearance: She is youthful and conventionally beautiful, so she is not breaking new grounds there. Her outfit exposes her belly and is not practical for a warrior. But it is a traditional Indian outfit in a game inspired by Hindu mythology. With everything else going for her, I think it is fine in context.
Side note: I am tempted to ask this question ("Suppose Nintendo were to announce a Fighter's Pass 3 dedicated to video game women, who would you recommend?") as a thread. Good idea/bad idea?
Speaking of which, Evans Remains is on sale on PSN right now, I really love the look of the lead character and it seemed to pass a lot of people by. It's a puzzle platformer.
Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦♀️