Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[Aexact]

Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦‍♀️

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Haha.
...
:(

If this wasn't so pervasive, I'd think it was kinda fun and in Cyber Sleuth specifically, it has a "she breaths through her skin" justification that would've been a fun twist moment in another context.

Anime games keep going more and more outlandish with the nonsensical cluelessness about cooking so if you're willing to ride with it, it's just silly anime shenanigans. If only the underlying "Lol look how bad they are at cooking" didn't have the subtext of "lol look how bad women, who should be good at it, are at cooking".

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Oh gods, I just met Rei Kishibe. Very sexualized design? Check. Sexually harasses men but it's not framed as harassment? Check. Talks in a very sexual tone constantly? Check. This fucking game.

 

[esserius]

Oh gods, I just met Rei Kishibe. Very sexualized design? Check. Sexually harasses men but it's not framed as harassment? Check. Talks in a very sexual tone constantly? Check. This fucking game.

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Wow I just looked up this character.

Spoiler

Yeesh.

Suzuhito Yasuda, king of random garters.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Wow I just looked up this character.

Spoiler

Yeesh.

Suzuhito Yasuda, king of random garters.

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As if her design isn't bad enough, her idle animation during conversations has her swaying lightly and her breasts moving like the physics were cranked up to 10.

 

[Roliq]

Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦‍♀️

Click to shrink...

There is actually a good story reason for the bad coffee and it makes sense when you see it but that doesn't take away that most of the female designs from Cyber Sleuth are bad

 

[Neoxon]

If we somehow get a third pass & there still isn't a black character.......yeah.

The sad part is that I could honestly see it happening.

 

[Wanderer5]

I looked up her idle animation, and then I ended up flashbacking on the old ninja gaiden sigma commerical with a interesting usage of the PS3 motion control.



Oof lol.

 

[Mahonay]

Oof lol.

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[texhnolyze]

Lmao what the heck is that, I've never seen it before.

 

[Timu]

Lmao what the heck is that, I've never seen it before.

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I seen it back when it 1st came out...yeah I can't believe I remember that perfectly.

 

[TheEchosOfTheCyborg]

Wow I just looked up this character.

Spoiler

Yeesh.

Suzuhito Yasuda, king of random garters.

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Was this drawn by the hentai artist Digimon team hired?

I love Digimon but I wish it wasn't so crummy with their designs for women, both humans and femmine women monster designs (since Digimon can be men or women, like you can have women Greymon or Nunemon etc yet sadly we don't see that in the anime or change genders when the evolve etc). I feel like even over 2 decades Arukenimon is still the only post child/rookie leveled femmine Digimon not to be heavily sexualized:

Part of me wish the feminine Digimon first appeared in the early years when Digimon was heavily inspired by horror and sci-fi tropes characters (like how the 5th Virtual Pets both the child levels were based on the Gremlins and Critters and the the adult levels are based on Godzilla monsters, or the tons of Digimon with Todd Macfarlane demon mouths like Vilemon and Ogremon, the graboid and xenomorph aesthetics of the invertebrate Digimon etc), but that's likely wishful thinking and they wouldn't looked much better then what we got.

It also bothers that characters like Rosemon (who I like) got more and more sexualized as time went on or her pre-evo like Lillymon lost a lot of cooler aesthetics to make her more traditionally pretty (like how her "dress" looked more like part of her body, her cool nail claws or the little fans she had in the original anime that you could see from time to time).

 

[PAFenix]

Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦‍♀️

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hahahhaha that's sooooooooo good! I haven't heard that one before!

.....I can't believe there are people even here that defend these tropes. Maybe it's new to them? I can't think of anything else.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦‍♀️

Click to shrink...

To be fair I make terrible coffee too. Like, it's so bad I'm pretty sure anyone that asks me to make them coffee would be happier with boiled water. 😂

 

[Neoxon]

Of course Sakurai & Bandai Namco snuck in jiggle physics for Pyra/Mythra (had to check the start of the stream when Max's chat pointed it out).

SMH

 

[Rosebud]

Of course Sakurai & Bandai Namco snuck in jiggle physics for Pyra/Mythra (had to check the start of the stream when Max's chat pointed it out).

SMH

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"we need more women in Smash"

 

[super-famicom]

I looked up her idle animation, and then I ended up flashbacking on the old ninja gaiden sigma commerical with a interesting usage of the PS3 motion control.



Oof lol.

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I'm sorry, but wtf did I just watch

 

[ClickyCal']

Of course Sakurai & Bandai Namco snuck in jiggle physics for Pyra/Mythra (had to check the start of the stream when Max's chat pointed it out).

SMH

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Wow, so I was right then when I noticed that originally. I knew I wasn't just seeing things. That's honestly just embarrassing to put in.

 

[Raftina]

Was this drawn by the hentai artist Digimon team hired?

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The human character designer, Suzuhito Yasuda, is best known for Devil Survivor and Durarara.

If we somehow get a third pass & there still isn't a black character.......yeah.

The sad part is that I could honestly see it happening.

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After FP2, the game has only 3 more provisioned character slots in the code. So we not get a FP3. The downside to that is, of course, that there is almost certainly not going to be a Black character.

 

[Cerulean_skylark]

As if her design isn't bad enough, her idle animation during conversations has her swaying lightly and her breasts moving like the physics were cranked up to 10.

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That's not even the worst thing.

The way she talks is in a constant, sultry (?), mature sexual woman archetype.
it's infuriating and slow. i quit that game like 5 hours in and watch some let's play.

 

[AnimaRize]

Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦‍♀️

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: cyber slueth

can't expect alphamon to know how to cook it's a giant robo knight with no taste buds

but seriously it's a tired trope

 

[SnazzyNaz]

Speaking of Cyber Sleuth, there is a character in that game who is explicitly non-binary which was a nice surprise.

Playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and, aside from the groanworthy character designs which go without saying, not too far into the game there is the obligatory "women can't cook" joke. Only it's coffee. Kyoko, the adult woman running the detective agency, makes horrendously bad coffee according to a man side character. 🤦‍♀️

Click to shrink...

Like the poster who replied to you mentioned, there is a legitimate story reason for the coffee thing (and I do feel it has more legs than the Quiet breathes through her skin shit) but they definitely could have hinted at the 'reveal' without using a sexist stereotype.

 

[Servbot24]

I really don't understand why Nintendo fans find XBC2 designs to be in any way acceptable.

 

[Schnee]

I really don't understand why Nintendo fans find XBC2 designs to be in any way acceptable.

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This just reminds me of that period around the early Switch days with the "Nintendo now" images showing a bunch of female Nintendo character's asses like BotW Zelda and Twintelle among others.

 

[Sacul64]

I should have known far better than to wonder about how far sexualization can go in a Japanese fighting game, shouldn't I?

Those first two pics don't look like the same character at all. If I had any kind of emotional attachment to the former I'd be fucking livid.

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Funny you should say this, I played a lot of the Story mode in the first BB and did not get the sequels and I just had the reaction you described. I really liked Noel.

 

[RedSwirl]

Wait did Raita do those Xenoblade characters? That would explain everything.

 

[carrot_]

I really don't understand why Nintendo fans find XBC2 designs to be in any way acceptable.

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I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

 

[ClickyCal']

This just reminds me of that period around the early Switch days with the "Nintendo now" images showing a bunch of female Nintendo character's asses like BotW Zelda and Twintelle among others.

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The most boys club shit ever. It was accompanied with stuff like "Nintendo remembered how to sell consoles now."

 

[Weltall Zero]

If we somehow get a third pass & there still isn't a black character.......yeah.

The sad part is that I could honestly see it happening.

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Could? It's pretty much guaranteed at this point. Twintelle was the one option served to them on a platter and look how much they cared.

I'm especially disappointed that they didn't bother normalizing Pyra's body a bit like they did with Bayonetta. So much for "it's a game for good kids" I guess. I love Sakurai as a dev as much as the next guy but it's obvious by now he's entirely out of touch with progressive topics like representation or feminism. :(

Of course Sakurai & Bandai Namco snuck in jiggle physics for Pyra/Mythra (had to check the start of the stream when Max's chat pointed it out).

SMH

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Not being familiar with the characters, my reaction during that trailer when she switched forms with the camera focused on her face was "well, at least she has an alter ego, which surely has more norm- [camera shows whole body]... nope, never mind; she changes between a woman with melon-sized breasts and a woman with baby head-sized breasts."

Funny you should say this, I played a lot of the Story mode in the first BB and did not get the sequels and I just had the reaction you described. I really liked Noel.

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I can only imagine and empathize with your pain. :(

 

[ClickyCal']

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

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It's straightup gaslighting.

 

[Foot]

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

Click to shrink...

Absolutely not a fault of yours. The game is telling people like us we aren't welcome.

 

[grand]

I really don't understand why Nintendo fans find XBC2 designs to be in any way acceptable.

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Fanboyism + "well it doesn't affect me personally"-ism + objectification of women being accepted broadly in society


Which is basically the argumentive & reasoning sections of this thread's hypothetical thesis

 

[RecLib]

The "teehee this girl can't cook look at how embarassing that is" trope is so widespread across anime games that its honestly embarrassing for the writers. Even if you take away the sexism (as Aexact pointed out, its essentially "woman bad at thing woman supposed to do!?"). Its a core underlying writing issue, you should be ashamed and embarrassed as a writer to recycle the same jokes you've seen done a thousand times before.

Spoiler: cyber slueth

can't expect alphamon to know how to cook it's a giant robo knight with no taste buds

but seriously it's a tired trope

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Its coffee though. Like seriously, you put a filter on, you dump some grounds in the filter, you run water through it.

Spoiler

even a robot with no taste buds can do that

 

[Dary]

Absolutely not a fault of yours. The game is telling people like us we aren't welcome.

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Which, for some people, is a selling point. They want games (and consoles) that will cater to (validate) their "tribe". Simple as that. XB2 could have the exact same story, but with a completely different artstyle, and they'd ignore it, because it's not "for them". Equally, give the Last of Us a Code Vein makeover, and they'd be happy to embrace it.

Edit:

 

[PaperSparrow]

We talking Digimon and sexism? I could write pages on that, lol.

Its coffee though. Like seriously, you put a filter on, you dump some grounds in the filter, you run water through it.

Spoiler

even a robot with no taste buds can do that

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: End Spoilers for CS

It's less she doesn't know how/can't taste and more she finds putting in strange ingredients like mayo and red bean paste tastes good because she's a Digimon. The real Kyoko shows up at the end and finds it weird the MC drinks that shit.

Mind you, the trope sucks even if they "subvert it" because it's so prevalent in anime to the point of oversaturation, even the subversions of it are. The designs certainly don't help, with Kyoko in particular not looking like a detective at all. I'm thankful Survive's character designs look to be a massive improvement... if it ever comes out.

 

[Cerulean_skylark]

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

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That game is loaded with "Here's one for the boys" moments that its' no surprise it wouldn't appeal to some women. It's pervasive throughout the game.

I played the whole thing and it never got any less stupid in any sort of content, no matter the quality of the rest of the game.

 

[Akainu]

Like the poster who replied to you mentioned, there is a legitimate story reason for the coffee thing (and I do feel it has more legs than the Quiet breathes through her skin shit) but they definitely could have hinted at the 'reveal' without using a sexist stereotype.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

Her car being the color of alphamon is the first hint.

 

[ClickyCal']

Which, for some people, is a selling point. They want games (and consoles) that will cater to (validate) their "tribe". Simple as that. XB2 could have the exact same story, but with a completely different artstyle, and they'd ignore it, because it's not "for them". Equally, give the Last of Us a Code Vein makeover, and they'd be happy to embrace it.

Click to shrink...

Tbh, I have literally seen some people say in other threads that Returnal would just be a better game if it wasn't "realistic styled", so it does seem like it comes down to that for some. Even though the game looks totally unique in every way in gameplay and setting, with a unique protagonist.

 

[SnazzyNaz]

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

Click to shrink...

Not your fault and I'm sorry to hear you're being made to feel that way.

 

[Ferrs]

Random rant, but I'm playing Nioh 2 and although we have agreed some times how the female character designs are more tamer than the usual Team Ninja stuff, I keep getting annoyed when I think what they did with Ginchiyo's character in Nioh 1.

Not a japanese culture expect, but IIRC she was a badass in real life, and the changes of her character in the game are kinda.. problematic? spoilers

Spoiler

In the game, it's hinted that she's raped by Tokichiro one day that Tachibana (her husband) was away. In real life though, Tokichiro tried to invite her to her castle multiple times, but she always armed and with her army of women (because she trained women to have their own personal army) and that scared Tokichiro, eventually giving up.

In the game her husband also cheats on her but they end up still together because she's just too loyal to him, in real life he doesn't cheat on her but she ends up dumping him when they can't have kids. She still helps him later on on the Siege of Yanagawa but that's it, they part their ways after that-

Did I already said she trained women to make her own army? because when she dumped Tachibana she became a Buddhist nun and trained her fellow nuns, and fought at the Siege of Yanagawa. At the end died as a noble woman.

Why they have such an historical badass woman and rewrite it with what is shown in Nioh 1 is beyond me.

 

[Sesha]

"we need more women in Smash"

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Also, just in case:

 

[ClickyCal']

Also, just in case:

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I don't even want to think of what that money's paw would be. Come on Nintendo, just do the right thing.

 

[Sheldon]

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

Click to shrink...

From someone who enjoyed XB2: don't feel ashamed, it's the game's fault and it's also not that great.

 

[Sesha]

I don't even want to think of what that money's paw would be. Come on Nintendo, just do the right thing.

Click to shrink...

Elma but she's got her white alien true form somehow (costume or transformation) would've been one example.

 

[Rotobit]

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

Click to shrink...

"Well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great" feels like something that outright admits the designs are bad and it's a problem, so I dunno why those folks are argumentative about it. If Pyra/Mythra/etc. are great characters beneath their character designs, then those fans should be even more annoyed they look so stupid (Pyra especially) than those on the outside looking in.

Like, I really enjoy the Cold Steel games (yet to play IV), but I'll be the first to admit some of those designs are outright embarassing and some pervy moments in those games actively work against it. One of my favorite characters (Fie) is repeatedly let down by having her wear extremely stupid and distracting clothes after the first game. Pretending those issues don't exist is just silly and can effectively render the other positives moot.

 

[Choppasmith]

I feel like so much of that thread (if that's what you're referring to with this) once again just devolved into "well just play the game and you'll see the characters and story are great," which I feel like not only misses the whole point (you shouldn't HAVE to be made to "look past" that stuff to experience a great game), but also makes me feel awful and ashamed (because I just CAN'T just look past it to enjoy the game, which then I feel like is my own fault). :(

Click to shrink...

Yep, I was pretty much told off that I didn't play the whole game so I just didn't know how good the game was. I tried to point out that Pyra's personality doesn't really "match" the outfit she's wearing but said poster, a woman actually, said I just didn't know about the character development that makes her more confident by the end of the game.

Me:

Also, I swear I think I saw someone rationalize it as "You see the Blades look the way they do because they're not actually human but, see, the villain sees them as objects meant to be used and abused on a whim but Rex, the HERO, sees them as equal people because he's just so pure."

Like, it wants to be a game for the male gaze that's playing it but ALSO tries to rationalize it in-universe (aka "she breathes through her skin")

I might've shared this story in the first OT or something, but I'll post it again:

Growing up, my sister, who never really got into games would LOVE watching me play games like FFVI and other RPGs. She could enjoy the story and characters and not have to fumble with controllers trying to play it herself. She lives with me now and that's still a thing. When I was playing XC2, we were definitely eye rolling and mocking Pyra's outfit, but then I got to the infamous "Blushy Crushy" and my sister watching the two different options was just getting increasingly annoyed there wasn't a way to say "No" until you're forced to go through the whole thing until she finally said FUCK OFF and stormed out of the room.

Oh but, I'm not suppose to take that scene seriously. Ughh. It's infuriating. I see other people, women included, who can look past it and can really enjoy it, and I just can't see how.

It's like all that AND Elma and XCX getting skipped that makes them the worst additions to Smash for me.

 

[RecLib]

Like, I really enjoy the Cold Steel games (yet to play IV), but I'll be the first to admit some of those designs are outright embarassing and some pervy moments in those games actively work against it. One of my favorite characters (Fie) is repeatedly let down by having her wear extremely stupid and distracting clothes after the first game. Pretending those issues don't exist is just silly and can effectively render the other positives moot.

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Cold Steel series is aggressively homophobic too, its problems run a lot deeper than visual designs.

 

[ClickyCal']

"If you can just see past their designs and get to understand their charac-"

Nah, I don't feel like having to tolerate misogyny to try to understand.

 

[Rotobit]

Cold Steel series is aggressively homophobic too, its problems run a lot deeper than visual designs.

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Yeah for sure, whenever it does those dumb jokes I have to roll my eyes. And anything with Musse, in general.

 

[Timu]

Cold Steel series is aggressively homophobic too, its problems run a lot deeper than visual designs.

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It's homophobic as well??? I had no idea, that sounds insane!

 

[Neoxon]

Could? It's pretty much guaranteed at this point. Twintelle was the one option served to them on a platter and look how much they cared.

I'm especially disappointed that they didn't bother normalizing Pyra's body a bit like they did with Bayonetta. So much for "it's a game for good kids" I guess. I love Sakurai as a dev as much as the next guy but it's obvious by now he's entirely out of touch with progressive topics like representation or feminism. :(

Click to shrink...

I don't really fault them for going with Min Min, between her being the #1 most popular ARMS character & Yabuki's favorite. Most of my criticisms are with Sakurai not even considering Twintelle, but rather Ninjara (who's almost exclusively popular in Japan) as the 2nd choice. But yeah, you're right in that Sakurai is completely out of touch regarding progressive topics.