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Isilia

Member
Mar 11, 2019
5,849
US: PA
It's also a very real possibility that the trailer was made to not have the sexy stuff (although they've done this sort of thing with smash already, so I don't know why they would limit that with Bayo).

It would be nice if they toned down the, uh, nature of her moves. However, I don't see it being cut out.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,155
Just wanted to say in this thread that I know Morrigan is stepping down as a mod but I always thought you did a great job representing this community and I've always appreciated your posts, especially in this thread. Just wanted to say that as I know there's a lot of shit being flung at the moment.

Wanted to chime in as well and agree.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,976
I think it deserves to be dragged far more if you take cultural context and trajectory into account. I can't think of many Western devs that are nearly as continuously and unrepentantly sleazy in the treatment of women as he is, whereas Kojima seems to at least be dialing it down from what I know of Death Stranding (without having played it, at least).
Cage is top of the pile. There's still some disgusting shit in Death Stranding from what I've. Somebody in here probably has a list of it. It's not MGS 4 or 5 bad, but it's still pretty bad in ways. Cage has always been a creep though.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
They are telling you design comes first and story justification comes second (the Thermian argument). If they wanted to have a sexualized design, they would, regardless of who she actually is; and the opposite is also true.
That implies the design is made in a vacuum. Bayonetta is an established character with established expectations. "Story justification" is a terrible term to use here. To me it seems clear that the toned down sexualization isn't being made because they just want Bayonetta to be less sexual, but specifically to contrast this version of her (younger, more idol gothic lolita like) to the one fans have come to expect (dominant, shameless and mature)

So her being Cereza would be very much relevant to that decision.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
That implies the design is made in a vacuum. Bayonetta is an established character with established expectations. "Story justification" is a terrible term to use here. To me it seems clear that the toned down sexualization isn't being made because they just want Bayonetta to be less sexual, but specifically to contrast this version of her (younger, more idol gothic lolita like) to the one fans have come to expect (dominant, shameless and mature)

So her being Cereza would be very much relevant to that decision.
When it comes to Bayonetta of all franchises, designs are indeed made in as close to a vaccuum as it gets. In particular I think you're drastically overestimating how much they are informed from story; the latter is an afterthought, at best. Platinum's MO has always been "make up [what they consider to be] cool shit first, make up justifications for it later" (if that).

Incidentally, this talk about whether she's Cereza or Bayonetta is rather puzzling to me. They're literally the same person; Cereza is Bayonetta's real name. Even if she's a younger version of Bayonetta, it's still more accurate to call her Bayonetta, as she's obviously closer to her adult version than the time-displaced child version in Bayonetta 1 (of course, it's also technically accurate to call her Cereza, much as Jeanne does). So the distiction is meaningless; the only relevant part is whether the game is a prequel to Bayonetta 1 or a sequel to 2.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,544
I appreciate that they toned down the sucker punch skeeviness of bayonetta but the new design has like, a really messy looking silhouette and design overall. Like Barry any contrast it's sorta blobby.

I think it deserves to be dragged far more if you take cultural context and trajectory into account. I can't think of many Western devs that are nearly as continuously and unrepentantly sleazy in the treatment of women as he is, whereas Kojima seems to at least be dialing it down from what I know of Death Stranding (without having played it, at least).
You really have to wonder if anyone said no to Kojima in that regard. There's the part where Fragile is stripped down to her underwear and licked before having her body ruined and referred to as "damaged goods." And you wake up to her showering. Amelie gets groped at one point while unconscious. Mama's entire arc is about her pregnancy and she points out that her body produces milk while groping herself. It's not portrayed AS bad as it could've been but it still always feel unnecessary. These little moments.
It's like, it's way way better than Quiet but still feels firmly in the "women as written by Kojima" category.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
26,097
Tbilisi, Georgia
Incidentally, this talk about whether she's Cereza or Bayonetta is rather puzzling to me. They're literally the same person; Cereza is Bayonetta's real name.
Yeah the whole discussion sounds like "that is not Goku, that is Kakarot!".

Like you can suppose that it is an alternate reality/timeline version of her, but she is still Bayonetta. People namedrop Cereza like she is a different person or something.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,555
Mass
I think it's easier to say "She's Cereza" then "She's an alternate timeline version of Bayonetta, possibly younger but definitely not the Bayonetta we played in the last two games."
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
When it comes to Bayonetta of all franchises, designs are indeed made in as close to a vaccuum as it gets. In particular I think you're drastically overestimating how much they are informed from story; the latter is an afterthought, at best. Platinum's MO has always been "make up [what they consider to be] cool shit first, make up justifications for it later" (if that).

Incidentally, this talk about whether she's Cereza or Bayonetta is rather puzzling to me. They're literally the same person; Cereza is Bayonetta's real name. Even if she's a younger version of Bayonetta, it's still more accurate to call her Bayonetta, as she's obviously closer to her adult version than the time-displaced child version in Bayonetta 1 (of course, it's also technically accurate to call her Cereza, much as Jeanne does). So the distiction is meaningless; the only relevant part is whether the game is a prequel to Bayonetta 1 or a sequel to 2.

Uh, I don't get what is so hard to get about "character design is being informed by character personality and traits". So it doesn't matter how important the story as in plot is or isn't, the characterization as part of the design is still true in Bayonetta and why I'm being annoyed at this argument that the story doesn't matter when I'm not arguing about the plot of the game, but how the character being possibly different reflects in the change of not only costume but choice in animations like her dancing and finishers we see in the trailer. Even the fact that her make-up is different now is part of the character, Bayonetta in previous games used fierce dark red lipstick to match her boldness, and in this trailer she's wearing a really soft light pink tone that matches how her attitude is not really the same.

Also the "they're the same person", yeah sure but while Cereza is Bayonetta as well, she didn't grow up exactly like her because of all the time displaced thing from the first game, so she's only as similar as an alternative timeline version of idk, Spider-Man would be to the mainline version. In practice, still different characters.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Uh, I don't get what is so hard to get about "character design is being informed by character personality and traits".
Nothing whatsoever. The issue isn't that people are somehow unable to grasp "story informs design" as a theory; it's that they disagree with you on where the causality arrow points in this specific case. You think the story came first and influenced her design; while I believe that, if anything, it was likely the reverse.

Furthermore, you are using somewhat circular logic. You believe that, because the story dictates that his is a younger version of Bayonetta, it influenced her character design. But the only reason you believe her to be a younger version at all is because of her character design.

Also the "they're the same person", yeah sure but while Cereza is Bayonetta as well, she didn't grow up exactly like her because of all the time displaced thing from the first game, so she's only as similar as an alternative timeline version of idk, Spider-Man would be to the mainline version. In practice, still different characters.
Is there a source for this? Admittedly my Bayonetta lore is limited to what I remember of the first two games (it was quite a while ago, and the first game's story is a mess), but I was under the assumption that Cereza went back in time and eventually became Bayonetta (a closed loop). I didn't remember there being two different versions of Bayonetta.
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,429


The more I think about it, the more there's a really good story in here. A robot is a manufactured thing, no more human than a can opener, and slapping tits on one doesn't make it "female" any more than one of those cheesy, embarrassing mouse pads. Obviously the AI is programmed to act as some kind of female-stereotype, most likely about as accurate to an actual woman as your average Tales of... character, but in a story about AI breaking out of its restraints that actually becomes a plus. It's also worth noting that sex-bot work is about as degrading to a robot as having to give my cat pills twice a day is to me. Robot isn't human, just human-shaped, and ascribing human reactions towards sex to a non-human is bad anthropomorphizing.

Also, no way in hell could David Cage handle the very careful writing necessary to make this story work, not to mention this is more the job of a novel than video game.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,341
Is there a source for this? Admittedly my Bayonetta lore is limited to what I remember of the first two games (it was quite a while ago, and the first game's story is a mess), but I was under the assumption that Cereza went back in time and eventually became Bayonetta (a closed loop). I didn't remember there being two different versions of Bayonetta.

This also is/was my understanding of Bayonetta 1, but time travel is pretty loose in the Bayonetta games (both because part of the tongue-in-cheek nature of Bayo1 is that even Bayonetta herself doesn't care about the plot, and because time travel doesn't exist so the rules are whatever you want them to be).

Like, let's say that the Cereza who Bayonetta sent back to the past eventually grew up to literally, physically be the modern Bayonetta in the flesh. Does that mean the modern Bayonetta, from this point onward, shouldn't have her memories of the original timeline? How did she (referring to the "inspired" Cereza who traveled to the future and returned to the past) end up at the bottom of the destroyed Ithavoll building standing next to her father's lipstick-impaled body?

The cleanest explanation is that it's a closed loop, but it's a "hand wavy" closed loop. Cereza going back in time and changing the past caused some sort of spiritual/mental/emotional awakening in the Bayonetta of the modern day, but it doesn't seem to have actually changed her timeline. Thus... it's not unreasonable to say that that Cereza who Bayonetta inspired (the one who blocked Jeanne's dagger) went on to live her own life in a separate timeline. And this character could be her.

TL;DR: It's bullshit, but I believe it.

I was watching the Direct with my friends and when it became clear that it was Bayonetta 3 (the f*cking Astral Chain fakeout fooled everyone) we all exploded.
We were flying over the moon for at least half an hour rewatching the trailer, commenting stuff about the train segment, the spider and generally joking around about the presentation being redeemed and that the reason they didn't show the final Smash character was that Bayonetta 3 would have overshadowed that announcement.

We were disappointed by the recasting, someone pointed out how appropriate it was for Bayonetta to return on bi visibility day, we discussed the new hairstyle and the magical girl outfit, we laughed at the Snake-like "kept you waiting" self aware memetic line and reenacted some iconic lines from the games. It's been a really long time since a trailer excited all of us in such a way, maybe the Everyone is Here Smash trailer was at that level.

Needless to say we are big fans of the character, with a friend of mine going so far as to call her "one of my three role models".
And you know what a group of fans like us, going over a trailer multiple times and gushing over Bayonetta for half an hour failed to notice?
What only other posters on Era made me realize?

That she didn't get naked when summoning. I didn't even realize that was a thing. I was too busy being euphoric with my friends and thinking about how much I love the games.
So from today onwards if some sequel tones down the sexualization of a character, or some remastered, or whatever, and some chud complains that they are "alienating the TRUE FANS, to pander to people who won't even buy the games" you have direct evidence that the TRUE FANS don't give a flying f*ck. You can call me as a witness if needed.

As for myself, this change can only make me happy. I can't deny that Bayonetta games are and will always be sexual, but it doesn't mean that she has to be sexualized. Okay Nintendo, you have proved that you are no longer a company just for kids, so will you instead be a company for adults and not for horny teenagers? Thank you.
And to be honest if this trailer is reflective of the entire game we can point out to Bayo 3 vs Bayo 2, Fire Emblem Three Houses vs Fates and conclude that they are getting better about this. Now fingers crossed for Xenoblade 3, that's the big one that can make or break this positive change of direction.

This is awesome. :D I had a fairly similar reaction: super hype about the trailer, watched it a bunch, suddenly realized "Oh huh, she keeps her clothes on the whole time...", and then ended up watching it and browsing fanart for literally 3 hours after that.

Like, most of the sexualization/nudity in Bayonetta 1 was okay to me because of how it was framed (e.g. her moments of nudity are tied with the height of her power and confidence, and the camera makes a point to follow the tip of her hair cyclone instead of her body). But... part of the reason I (personally, imo) consider Bayonetta 1 to be a feminist game is that it has a shocking amount of emotion and character depth for what is ostensibly a character action game about a sexy bullet witch.

So if Bayonetta wants to get naked in an empowering way? Sure, that can be part of her character. If she doesn't want to? That's more than fine by me as well. The fact that they're exploring different facets of her character, plus the sense that this game is more focused on Bayonetta as a character than Bayonetta 2 was, is actually the biggest reason why my hype levels are at a 14/10 right now.

(And even if this is an inspired "Cereza" and not the literal "Bayonetta", the character is clearly still Bayonetta in spirit. As far as I'm concerned, the character Bayonetta kept her clothes on for the trailer, regardless of what parallel timeline shenanigans may or may not ensue in the plot.)
 
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GrandeRampel

Member
Jul 22, 2020
209
Bari, Italy
The more I think about it, the more there's a really good story in here. A robot is a manufactured thing, no more human than a can opener, and slapping tits on one doesn't make it "female" any more than one of those cheesy, embarrassing mouse pads. Obviously the AI is programmed to act as some kind of female-stereotype, most likely about as accurate to an actual woman as your average Tales of... character, but in a story about AI breaking out of its restraints that actually becomes a plus. It's also worth noting that sex-bot work is about as degrading to a robot as having to give my cat pills twice a day is to me. Robot isn't human, just human-shaped, and ascribing human reactions towards sex to a non-human is bad anthropomorphizing.

Also, no way in hell could David Cage handle the very careful writing necessary to make this story work, not to mention this is more the job of a novel than video game.

I adore stories of robots gaining free will and trying to become more like humans and being accepted in the human society. And I especially love the very obvious fact that a machine doesn't have a concept of gender, but could develop one. Perhaps one similar to ours, or completely different. And of course there is a clear difference between the "gender" you are created to be and the one you choose to have for yourself, with all the trans subtext you could write into it.

The fact that Cage didn't just botch the concept, or write it off as impossible because of some bullsh*t lore reason, but simply didn't even realize it was a thing to ponder about with androids is just more proof that he is an hack writer.

You are seriously telling me that you spent multiple pages on SPORTS and how androids existing would ruin them, but you didn't have a single thought about "machines maybe could be different from us on matters such as gender and sexuality"?
I'm not even asking much. Even just an optional line. Even just a random member of Jericho asking Markus what pronouns to use with him because it's not just somethng to assume when meeting a new fellow non-human pal. But... no it is probably asking too much from Cage. Because to realize that he would have to realize that it's something you shouldn't assume with fellow human pals too. And for someone I'm CONVINCED only recently understood that gay people exist that is just too complicated a concept. -.-



TL;DR: It's bullshit, but I believe it.

Hold up. Is that? I don't want to assume but could this possibly be a reference of the JoJo variety? Because it certainly looks like one.

Anyway yeah I can't wait for Bayonetta 3, gosh! I personally am on board with the alternate timeline theory, but even if it doesn't come true I trust the team at Platinum to come up with something amazing. (I will admit that one reason I would like that theory to be true is that the concept of timeline 1 Cereza interacting with timeline 2 Cereza sounds amazing on paper and I want to see it on screen).

EDIT: But wait, would timeline 1 Cereza look just like timeline 2 Cereza or would she have her Bayo 2 design?
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,429
I adore stories of robots gaining free will and trying to become more like humans and being accepted in the human society. And I especially love the very obvious fact that a machine doesn't have a concept of gender, but could develop one. Perhaps one similar to ours, or completely different. And of course there is a clear difference between the "gender" you are created to be and the one you choose to have for yourself, with all the trans subtext you could write into it.

I'm going to allow myself to go off-topic for one shortish post- I honestly don't understand why an AI would want to be human. I've never been able to wrap my head around that trope, and there's no getting around that as a species we're really screwed up. We're smart enough to know where we fail (racism/sexism/short-term thinking/survivor bias/etc etc etc.) but only able to lessen rather than eradicate those issues. Let's not even get into how screwed up memory is, and how that effects us in ways we can't understand. We've got a long, long way to go to be the species we dream of being, and I can't imagine an AI would want to basically lobotomize itself to become us. It's like the reverse of cultural appropriation except on a species-wide scale.

Actually, something Rami Ismail said the other day ties into this directly-



Anyway, sorry again for wandering off topic and I'll shut up now.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,954
They are telling you design comes first and story justification comes second (the Thermian argument). If they wanted to have a sexualized design, they would, regardless of who she actually is; and the opposite is also true.


I think it deserves to be dragged far more if you take cultural context and trajectory into account. I can't think of many Western devs that are nearly as continuously and unrepentantly sleazy in the treatment of women as he is, whereas Kojima seems to at least be dialing it down from what I know of Death Stranding (without having played it, at least).
Forgive my ignorance, but what kind of cultural context are we talking about here?
 

GrandeRampel

Member
Jul 22, 2020
209
Bari, Italy
Jamesac68

I completely get your argument, but there are some counterarguments to consider.
To avoid going completely off-topic let's talk about GLaDOS, an excellent female character and also a robot who certainly doesn't want to become human at all.
And yet despite this, she certainly is very similar to a human in how she thinks and feels, to the point of being petty and cruel. When writing a machine character we can't get around the fact that machines are created by humans, and as such will be influenced by human nature. Even the most cold and pragmatic AI will be just as cold and pragmatic as we made them, and even if we imagine a world many centuries in the future in which humans are no more (think Nier: Automata) and as such machines are created by other machines and learn from them, would they truly be completely disconnected from us? Even after thousands of generations, generation 1 at least will have learned everything from us.

It's a poor comparison the one you made with that tweet you posted. It's less group A of a certain religion which we assume to be inferior and that they would love to be more like US group B of another religion, and more group A of a certain species which we assume would love to be more like US their literal creators and gods.
And sure, all our failures and limits still remain, and would be plain to see for an advanced AI. And they could hate us for our ugliness and rebel against us, perhaps just to be our equals, perhaps to dominate or even exterminate us, and in that case they would prove to be exactly like us in many ways. Just as prideful, just as self-centered, just as hypocritical.

Just because an AI with complete free will would be certainly different from us and more intelligent, it doesn't mean they wouldn't have some of our defects. It doesn't mean that they couldn't be free from some of our limits but ironically desire them, like mortality. The ability to die can be a blessing, it can be a miracle.

It doesn't mean that they couldn't be strictly inferior in some ways. I said "more intelligent" before, and you said that for an AI becoming more like a human would be like lobotomizing themself, but there are many kinds of intelligence. What if they were lacking in creative intelligence. What if they couldn't dream of electric sheeps? To dream could be an alien concept to them, and they could be utterly fascinated by it and envy us. You seem to assume that a non-biological life form would be superior to us in all things, and as such they would have nothing to envy, or to admire, but that's not guaranteed at all. In a way assuming that the first strong AI capable of being considered a life form would be perfect, or capable of bettering themself without help until they are perfect, is being optimistic and wildly overestimating humanity.

To bring the discussion back to gender, another thing to consider is that while it is possible that they could develop the concept of gender by copying us, their creators, it's also possible that for for a sentient being there's no avoiding duality. After all the only things we know about intelligent life forms, we know from studying humanity. We know how our mind works and we can speculate that other minds of aliens or what-not could work differently. But perhaps not. Perhaps all minds work that way, and we didn't notice because we only have one point of comparison. We could meet aliens, or create a strong AI tomorrow and discover that their minds work the same way, with a conscious mind, a subconscious mind and an unconscious mind.

TL;DR: While thinking that a strong AI would 100% want to be like us is naive, it is also naive to think that a strong AI would 100% want nothing to do with us and also be perfect. After they are made by us, our creations, and we are far from perfect.

If you want to exchange ideas about this incredibly fascinating topic, we could do it via DM, since this thread isn't really for disccusing AIs. Not even videogame ones.
 

Keiriks

Omicron Persei 8 Logic
Member
Aug 19, 2021
6,267
Reykjavík, Iceland
But... part of the reason I (personally, imo) consider Bayonetta 1 to be a feminist game is that it has a shocking amount of emotion and character depth for what is ostensibly a character action game about a sexy bullet witch.
I agree, a feminist reading of Bayo 1 is actually a lot easier than one would think. Not to say it's a flawless entry into the feminism canon or anything, its issues are as numerous as they are well documented, but its major themes are arguably emancipation and sisterhood. Like, the main villain is Bayo's abusive father who wants to use her as a tool to achieve his own goals while Bayo's only true equal, both emotionally and in power, is her coven sister Jeanne. The one time Bayo is damseled, Jeanne rides up a rocket on a motorcycle and tells her that she's way too awesome for this bullshit. Then Bayo wakes up and punches God into the sun. Bayo has connected with her past throughout the game, freed herself from her father's influence and reunited with Jeanne and is symbolically reborn as she emerges from a coffin into the sunlight at the end, a bookend to the rainy nighttime funeral at the start of the game back when she herself was in the dark. It writes itself.

Really, the only thing that truly goes against this reading is... Bayonetta 2. I did not like the evil dad good actually retcon. I didn't like any of Bayo 2's plot, actually. There not being a "Cereza I am your father" moment was good I guess.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,544
Bayonetta is the Sucker Punch of the video game industry. As in it's not very feminist at all and the majority of it is the director's fetishes on full display. With a relatively terrible to boot albeit less overtly misogynistic. Tho...the director of sucker punch isn't on record talking about his specific fetishes/preferences regarding women and how that played a part in the costume design of the movie. Which uh..cannot be said for Bayo. 👀

I honestly wonder how it would've been received if it had the exact same presentation, like the same cutscenes and such, but terrible character action gameplay. It's sexual empowerment as written by men projecting their own kinks onto a woman who...literally never has sex ever? You know when so much media that genuinely does portray sexual empowerment in other mediums outside of the gaming industry it's a wonder that sexual empowerment in video games always defaults to, "there's fanservice and objectification." But hey, at least she has one line about liking the thing that the team of male writers would never allow their female character to actually do. 🙃 I'm not saying that Bayonetta should constantly be having sex, just that, it's fanservice, even if under the veneer of being self aware and breaking the fourth wall, is just that. Fanservice, created and led by straight dudes, ("actually bayo's designer was a female" being a common gotcha), for other straight dudes. Hence the creepy things like "if she gets too hurt she loses her magic and becomes naked because her skintight clothes are made of hair...uhh..feminism?"
 
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WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,617
Never found Bayonetta to be remotely feminist either 🤷‍♀️
Me neither. Bayonetta is guilty of all the things we criticize other sexualized games for. In many ways, there are moments in Bayonetta even more embarassing than others. You don't see this in Nier Automata.
FmJ3JV.gif

OnlyScaredIcefish-size_restricted.gif
 

Isilia

Member
Mar 11, 2019
5,849
US: PA
Yeah, I cannot see that game as anything but male gaze porn.

You don't see many games where men are empowered because they spread eagle and their ass is in the camera all the time
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,825
So, I just finally got to Kisara in Tales of Arise, and her ass hanging out doesn't bug me as much as I thought it would. I think it's because I find the way she walks far more distracting and cringey. Here is the important Knight, and she walks like this:

tumblr_mix1htfreW1qjqbr2o1_400.gifv


The camera on her ass is just the icing on top. There's no defending that design when the camera itself is all over her cheeks.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,341
I agree, a feminist reading of Bayo 1 is actually a lot easier than one would think. Not to say it's a flawless entry into the feminism canon or anything, its issues are as numerous as they are well documented, but its major themes are arguably emancipation and sisterhood. Like, the main villain is Bayo's abusive father who wants to use her as a tool to achieve his own goals while Bayo's only true equal, both emotionally and in power, is her coven sister Jeanne. The one time Bayo is damseled, Jeanne rides up a rocket on a motorcycle and tells her that she's way too awesome for this bullshit. Then Bayo wakes up and punches God into the sun. Bayo has connected with her past throughout the game, freed herself from her father's influence and reunited with Jeanne and is symbolically reborn as she emerges from a coffin into the sunlight at the end, a bookend to the rainy nighttime funeral at the start of the game back when she herself was in the dark. It writes itself.

Really, the only thing that truly goes against this reading is... Bayonetta 2. I did not like the evil dad good actually retcon. I didn't like any of Bayo 2's plot, actually. There not being a "Cereza I am your father" moment was good I guess.

This is/was my reading of the first game as well. In addition to what you said, I also love the point that Bayonetta serves as a role model for herself by channeling the sort of strength and confidence that her mother had.

It's a very YMMV game though (which is why I emphasized "imo" in my original statement). Of the people who find Bayonetta positive or feminist, I don't think any of them would defend certain aspects of the game. Bayonetta 1 is messy and complicated, and there's absolutely no right answer for whether someone thinks the strong points (characters, story/themes, general aesthetic of femininity as heroic power) outweigh the negatives (Joys, Rodin, Kamiya's metacommentary). It's entirely possible for two people to fully agree on the "facts" of Bayonetta, and yet have different opinions on the final holistic result.

And very much agreed that a feminist reading of Bayonetta 2 is much harder if not downright impossible. The sequel actually cuts back on many of the more controversial elements (no Joys, fewer naked scenes) but couldn't be further off the mark in the plot/themes/characters department.
  • Loki kissing Bayonetta.
  • Rodin stealing Bayonetta's kill on Alraune.
  • Alraune being played for laughs in general.
  • Rosa's role as a mother being completely unexplored. (Her few scenes have her taking on the role of Balder's dying wife.)
  • Redeeming Bayonetta's abusive and manipulative father.
  • Balder asking Bayonetta to call her daddy and Bayonetta... calling him daddy. Fucking yikes.
  • Jeanne being full-on damseled, without the subversive heroic escalation that the first game had.
  • Luka and Loki's ogling.
  • Bayonetta in general being less of a heroic powerhouse, often losing battles in cutscenes or needing a male character to bail her out.
Like, I actually hate Bayonetta 2's story lmao. When the game was first announced, I remember thinking "The first one seems like such a fluke with how it repackages repugnant tropes into something I actually love... what if they can't pull it off again?" And lo and behold, they failed to pull it off again. Praying for Bayonetta 3.

(And just to emphasize it, Bayonetta 1 is very YMMV. I don't disagree with anyone who determines "Yeah, no, it's not working for me." That's a 100% personal decision.)
 
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seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,469
Bayonetta is the Sucker Punch of the video game industry. As in it's not very feminist at all and the majority of it is the director's fetishes on full display. With a relatively terrible to boot albeit less overtly misogynistic. Tho...the director of sucker punch isn't on record talking about his specific fetishes/preferences regarding women and how that played a part in the costume design of the movie. Which uh..cannot be said for Bayo. 👀

I honestly wonder how it would've been received if it had the exact same presentation, like the same cutscenes and such, but terrible character action gameplay. It's sexual empowerment as written by men projecting their own kinks onto a woman who...literally never has sex ever? You know when so much media that genuinely does portray sexual empowerment in other mediums outside of the gaming industry it's a wonder that sexual empowerment in video games always defaults to, "there's fanservice and objectification." But hey, at least she has one line about liking the thing that the team of male writers would never allow their female character to actually do. 🙃 I'm not saying that Bayonetta should constantly be having sex, just that, it's fanservice, even if under the veneer of being self aware and breaking the fourth wall, is just that. Fanservice, created and led by straight dudes, ("actually bayo's designer was a female" being a common gotcha), for other straight dudes. Hence the creepy things like "if she gets too hurt she loses her magic and becomes naked because her skintight clothes are made of hair...uhh..feminism?"

Same. I very much don't get what's feminist about Bayonetta at all. I think people just see a good character action game, and it's a woman that looks sexy.

So that's somehow uh, empowering and all I guess?
 

Isilia

Member
Mar 11, 2019
5,849
US: PA
Wouldn't be a remake of a old game if the women couldn't be sexualized just a bit.

Though my brother says the angel is a boy? I'm not sure if true. I wasn't around when he was playing it.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,857
The Actraiser remake~~
FAA9FhLVkAYQZaX

Old one
FAA_uXlVQAARMoU


Remake

FAA_uXiUUAI0y0t


Old
FAAXIUNVUAEps_k


Remake
FAAXJzIVkAEeKo6


....
FAJkSsOVkAMT-kT

FAJkSsXUcAQa6qg

FAJkSsXVgAU0P_A

I'm still only in the first settlement, which I thought was fine. (The first set of pics of people praying). Hadn't seen those last three pics yet. Lol wow........

Wouldn't be a remake of a old game if the women couldn't be sexualized just a bit.

Though my brother says the angel is a boy? I'm not sure if true. I wasn't around when he was playing it.

As far as I've played, no one has used a pronoun when speaking to the Angel. Tbh, with the way the Angel speaks about mortals, I would hazard a guess that they don't have the same view of gender that mankind has. Could also explain the androgynous art in regards to them. But I don't expect this game to make a point of actually talking about that.
 

FulcrumTK

Member
Oct 6, 2020
997
The new Actraiser angel design, yeesh... EDIT: Actually maybe it isn't so bad? I thought the clothing was midriff-baring, but it's kinda flesh-colored anyway, so it's hard for my colorblind eyes to tell, lol.

About Bayonetta, I don't really understand some of the praise it gets from queer fans. I remember a lesbian fan saying they like the "palpable tension" between Bayonetta and Jeanne, and I just...

Look, I'm autistic, subtext often goes over (or under?) my head. But the game is rated M and is very explicit otherwise. Don't we deserve better than subtext or "tension"? Especially in a game where the main character says stuff like this:
Do I look like I have any interest in children? Now making them, well that's another story.
…And also especially considering they included that bizarre scene where Luka accidentally grabs Bayonetta's butt as she saves him from some falling debris and they end up landing crotch to crotch. Why is the het stuff so explicit while the queerness is just subtext? Is this really the best queer fans can get?

That all being said, some people think the person at the end of the 3 trailer is Jeanne, and...
bayonetta3-blogroll-2-1632437157903.jpg

Give me the cool butch lady give me the cool butch lady GIVE ME THE COOL BUTCH LADY
 
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Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,324
UK
I fucking hate when I hear people say Bayonetta or Kill la Kill [!] are empowering to women. 🤦‍♀️
Usually I hear males making this case so they don't feel bad about enjoying this heh. I've read some good pieces from women for Bayonetta's character though, and expressing sexuality but still acknowledge the fault of the male gaze with the camera.
 
Jun 2, 2019
1,059
So is this confirmation that Bayonetta is still gonna get naked for certain attacks?

I wrote a comment on Kamiya's tweet in which I basically said that I believe Bayonetta doesn't need to get naked to be cool, as what people love about her is her charismatic and confident personality.

Well, he just blocked me.

So yeah, I take this as confirmation that we can expect the absolute worst from this game developed by manchildren.
 

Keiriks

Omicron Persei 8 Logic
Member
Aug 19, 2021
6,267
Reykjavík, Iceland
I wrote a comment on Kamiya's tweet in which I basically said that I believe Bayonetta doesn't need to get naked to be cool, as what people love about her is her charismatic and confident personality.

Well, he just blocked me.

So yeah, I take this as confirmation that we can expect the absolute worst from this game developed by manchildren.
tbf Kamiya will block anyone who doesn't tweet him in Japanese, it's his gimmick.
 

FulcrumTK

Member
Oct 6, 2020
997
Another thing about the Bayonetta series I'm not a fan of is people treating its grown man creator acting like a 13-year-old like it's cute.
 

Roliq

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 23, 2018
6,226
I imagine that's not the case for all the people tweeting glowing praise at him about his new game, though. I'm sure he loves to see that.
No, he really blocks so many people even when they praise the game, he even unblocked someone who made a drawing, quoted it saying he liked it and then blocked them again, some people even mention they are blocked despite not even saying anything to him
 

FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,040
Only played Bayonetta 1. Enjoyed the combat but found it creepy, cringey and it made me uncomfortable. Wouldn't touch another game in the series and never understood the hype for them personally.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,764
I wrote a comment on Kamiya's tweet in which I basically said that I believe Bayonetta doesn't need to get naked to be cool, as what people love about her is her charismatic and confident personality.

Well, he just blocked me.

So yeah, I take this as confirmation that we can expect the absolute worst from this game developed by manchildren.

I mean, to be fair, I Kamiya blocked me for asking when the w101 would come out.

He blocks everyone, it's a meme at this point.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
I never understood what made Bayonetta a feminist game.
It always felt creepy in a "It's the dev's kink" kind of way.
I would also argue that Bayonetta's design is and has always been trash.
 

Godfather

Game on motherfuckers
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,511
I never understood what made Bayonetta a feminist game.
It always felt creepy in a "It's the dev's kink" kind of way.
I would also argue that Bayonetta's design is and has always been trash.
I think I liked her when it first came out because it was more "adult" when compared to other shit, and it's not trying to hide what it is.
 

WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,617
I think I liked her when it first came out because it was more "adult" when compared to other shit, and it's not trying to hide what it is.
I never really understood why that's a positive. That is the same reasoning some people use for liking Yoko Taro despite his perverted tendencies like asking fans to send him erotic pictures of 2B so he can save them. Because he's not trying to hide how juvenile he is, that makes him more likeable?
 
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spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,392
I think I liked her when it first came out because it was more "adult" when compared to other shit, and it's not trying to hide what it is.

But there's always been a significant segment of the fandom, even on here, that defends it for "satirizing" male gaze, saying bayo owns her own sexuality, or something. And they always counter with "she was designed by a woman so you cannot claim male gaze" etc. It's always been embarrassing.