Probably gonna happen the same to me, just had to say something lol
Some really thin skinned people there, now imagine going through everything the women in this thread have to go through
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
Some really thin skinned people there, now imagine going through everything the women in this thread have to go through
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I'm not the first to say it but a big problem gaming still has is that despite all the calls for video games to be treated like art at the end of the day there's still a need to treat them like consumer products first and foremost. So the major points of conversation are always going to revolve primarily on how good it looks, how well it runs, how much it costs, and how "fun" it is overall. Even the ones that care about things like sexualization can't help but defer back here. It's why reviews can confidently say "This game is 8/10 as long as you ignore the central thing its advertising", it's why Digital Foundry gets treated like some kind of all-purpose seal of quality despite largely doing (exceptional) technical reviews, it's part of why gaming still struggles with maturing in how it handles narrative and theming.
(As an aside the push at getting accessibility more recognized has been appreciated but even then I suspect it's largely because it still fits the mold of a consumer product and "ease of use", akin to evaluating a movie's available captioning options.)
Gaming is still not equipped to handle a game like Stellar Blade, games that are well made and are overall fun but still exude problematic elements beyond those parameters (which surrounding paratext like everything with the devs behind it). A game like this has no problem gushing about how much the main character's boobs and butt jiggle because it can look you dead in the eyes and say "It doesn't matter as long it runs at 4k60fps and has a good combat system" and know that most gamers will blink. Gamers will sooner raise hell at an unsteady framerate.
Right there with you, I can't believe how positive so many are on this in 2024. I thought we were learning. Even my favorite outlets and reviewers who always call out this shit are dead silent past 'it's there but not blatant.' It's so disheartening.
You have got to be kidding melol…
Sexy lumberjack is...a choice.I like the bear suit
This feels like that Halloween discount costume center sketch.
"Fuck you! Get the fuck down here!"
lol…
They're putting non-exclusive games on that picture, so a fuckton of great female characters to chose from, and they chose her? lol
Even Selene from returnal which is sony isn't even on there
I am still thinking about the Polygon review (and by extension, other reviews that kinda say the same thing phrases differently). The "sure she's sexy but there's no fanservice scenes."
I genuinely do not know how you can be a critic at an outlet that has at least made overtures about caring about this stuff and not see how baffling that statement is. Like, yeah, maybe there's no harem anime "oh tee-hee you saw me at the onsen with my clothes off!" scene, but as we've seen from that gif here the fanservice is all over this game from design to camerawork to physics. The game is, itself, a gigantic fanservice scene.
Like at least acknowledge it even if you're okay with it. I am a girl who has played some sexy trash over the years but I still try to at least actually acknowledge and deal with and offer criticism of this kind of stuff even if it's a game I otherwise like!
Honestly between the media reception overall apart from a couple of outlets, and the general attitudes I've seen in threads here, I'm just really feeling bleak about gaming right now. I definitely don't feel super welcome even here outside of this thread and a handful of others.
I genuinely do not know how you can be a critic at an outlet that has at least made overtures about caring about this stuff and not see how baffling that statement is. Like, yeah, maybe there's no harem anime "oh tee-hee you saw me at the onsen with my clothes off!" scene, but as we've seen from that gif here the fanservice is all over this game from design to camerawork to physics. The game is, itself, a gigantic fanservice scene.
Like at least acknowledge it even if you're okay with it. I am a girl who has played some sexy trash over the years but I still try to at least actually acknowledge and deal with and offer criticism of this kind of stuff even if it's a game I otherwise like!
Honestly between the media reception overall apart from a couple of outlets, and the general attitudes I've seen in threads here, I'm just really feeling bleak about gaming right now. I definitely don't feel super welcome even here outside of this thread and a handful of others.
LMAOONow that outfit is actually cute, but the colonoscopy camera shots.
Yeah, I've enjoyed some games with this kind of pandering before (Nier comes to mind) - but I always liked them DESPITE the embarrassing bullshit, not because of it.
I find this pandering so insultingly juvenile it becomes like a parody of sexiness, going all the way into the grotesque.
That eurogamer review what the actual fuck it says it a embarrassment for gaming then goes on about it being a harrassment rod then goes on about how shouldn't hate women who have issue with the game then gives it 4/5.
What is going on with this game and journalism feel insane past few weeks
What is going on with this game and journalism feel insane past few weeks
Legit wondering if the reviewer is too baked in modern anime and anime-style video games to judge it fairly. Like to flat-out say "there isn't anything that counts as fanservice" either they're lying through their teeth or they're so numb to this kind of stuff they don't even realize it. I've seen enough anime Youtubers slip on that to know just how much someone can get desensitized to this kind of stuff.
Oh fuck I think it is. Was wondering why it was looking familiar lol.
(Artist best known for Ultimate Spider-Man for the record).
Gaming has long had a need to evolve into something closer to film criticism, but that's unlikely to happen with the massive consolidation of gaming news sites. The current state of things means that you need to have a review at launch and can't take time to fully take everything surrounding a game into context (which is a whole other crazy story given how game updates can fundamentally change things).
Odds are we will eventually get some nice think pieces about Stellar Blade and what it represents to the industry (likely once we know sales figures), but it will never have the reach of the no doubt numerous streamers playing the game knowing that showing off the most extreme outfits will draw the largest audience.
I genuinely have no idea why reviewers are being so cowardly about this and dancing around the pack of elephants in the room. It's one of the most alarmingly unsubtle games in a decade and journalists are acting all coy like this shit is something only some people will notice.
I have no idea lol, afraid I don't know much about comics.
Thanks Moonlit, I appreciate that ♥ I couldn't resist a peek at the Cybernetic Bondage one though, in the second spoiler, and I think my eyes discovered a new way to roll.
lmao literally
this week has reaffirmed to me that, despite all the progress made over the last decade or so, the industry, the gaming community, and gaming journalism is still by and large, childish and immature, and worst of all, very cowardly.
Thirsty people will drink the water even if it has chemicals in it.
It's Lucy drinking the radioactive water. After some point, they will stop caring. Unlike water, they don't need it to survive.
It stops just short of asking why we can't just keep politics out of games. Why talk about this important shit when there's sick looking combos?
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What's really getting my goat is the "you can enjoy the game's fanservice without hating women!!" takes like stop besmirching the reputation of oppressed horny gamers 🥺
I dunno. I've willingly gone through a ton of objectifying stuff over the years and if anything that's just made me more aware of it when it happens. I can't discount the idea of becoming numb to it, but... It's so blatant here that I'm not sure how.
I know, eh? I didn't think it could get that bad, honestly, but it's easily the worst one of the bunch. For what it's worth, there are definitely others I saw (and left out) that I think you'll love!
I actually left out a lot of outfits I wanted to talk about, because there are just... so many. I'd end up repeating myself on a few of them. A lot of them are just bizarre, though. I do look forward to seeing other people's takes on them.
Such oppression. The least catered to group in gaming.
Not like this very studio isn't already taking home huge bank on that NIKKE cash.
Ugh.
That's an interesting thought and it had occurred to me too. I watch a good amount of anime, but virtually all of what I watch tends to be on the less-fanservicey end of yuri and slice-of-life (and the handful of things that I've watched and enjoyed that are noticeably hornier are both A. still centered around women characters and B. also significantly and deliberately sillier than anything I see in Stellar Blade). Not that those genres don't have issues around this stuff, but I know I'm not getting the full firehose of shonen tropes and fanservice.
I've had the experience of seeing something in one of my shows where I was like "ehhh that's a little much" and then I see a clip from something a lot more mainstream popular and I realize oh no it can be so much worse and I'm not fully numb to it yet.
EDIT: though as MoonlitSeer says a part of me thinks seeing this stuff has made me more aware of it, so I'm just really not sure at this point. I don't see how you could just turn off and not notice it.
I swear gamers think they really are the oppressed group for even having to see a mild, pretty basic criticism regarding the blatant objectification. And honestly it's one that the vast majority of games media has decided to give a pass on as well
I know it's not an original thought or anything, but like, outside of the blatantly horny outfits that make non sense in the context of a combat soldier, even the outfits that are almost solid have such weird concessions to being horny that they just wind up looking ugly. Like I would be able to ignore some of this stuff a little more if the outfits were at least actually well-designed. From the little stuff like that full-body suit (which is otherwise great) having those heels for no reason to the bigger stuff like whatever is going on with the "mechanic" outfit.
Like I think you could absolutely make an outfit that has that sort of vibe and would look cute and at least adjacent to being believable, but that ain't it.
EDIT: also that dress, I actually really like that dress! I own some dresses that look like that (I'm into girly kei and gothic lolita). But as you say, they can't stop posing her like a sex doll, so it comes across looking just off.
I made the mistake of checking out some Stellar Blade discussions on other sites, ones that I would think are "neutral"/"normal", but nah, the conversations are dominated by the "anti-woke" crowd and the few that do pushback against that rhetoric are ignored, downvoted, ridiculed, or simply drowned out. Seeing so many people circlejerking about how totally outraged everyone is about SB (and interestingly barely discussing the game itself, unless it's about the "fanservice"), feels far more "negative" than seeing the mostly positive discussions of the game here in its relevant threads with a few people commenting on the game's sexualisation or other issues.
It's actually refreshing that, for the most part anyway, people CAN talk about the negatives of the game here without being dogpiled and gaslit. If people are really so adverse to "negativity" surrounding the game, they should probably avoid online discourse all together and just focus on playing the game, because there will ALWAYS be people that disagree with your opinion that X game is the best thing ever, or that there's wider issues surrounding the game, or that it is in fact possible to like a game while still having criticisms of it (the old "don't like it don't play it" I've heard so often comes to mind here, like saying anything remotely negative about a game must mean you're just a "hater").
Anyway, for what it's worth, I don't always agree with you but I appreciate your posts here as well. People that seemingly HAVE to comment things like that when they could just easily not say anything and just ignore you... it says a lot more about them than it does you.
I don't know if this is appropriate but. I have lurked in this thread for a long while now - and the forum in general to be honest. But this thread has given me a lot of insight and helped me to look at the games media I consume from a different perspective.
I may well be in the minority, I don't know. But the discourse you provide here has had an effect on me, and I hope on others, even if what goes on in review threads, OTs and on other sites for certain games makes it seem like it doesn't for the community at large.
I just wanted to say, because it's hard to point out these kinds of issues all the time when the response is negativity, or apathy. All of your posts are appreciated.
I may well be in the minority, I don't know. But the discourse you provide here has had an effect on me, and I hope on others, even if what goes on in review threads, OTs and on other sites for certain games makes it seem like it doesn't for the community at large.
I just wanted to say, because it's hard to point out these kinds of issues all the time when the response is negativity, or apathy. All of your posts are appreciated.
How is Era admin handling SB? Is the discussion taking place here right now not allowed in the OT? It should totally be in there if you ask me... would be major strange vibes if mods wouldn't allow it.
Based on the OT, it seems like it is allowed. I think many of us are just tired of screaming into the void about this fuckin game. You post criticism or commentary and it gets drowned out by "looks sick, can't wait" type shit.
It's allowed. The staff post in the OT points out that discussion can be had both there and here. It's just easier for many people who already hang out in this thread to use it over going over to the other one. There is already an established vibe and community here, and the other OT is an unknown variable where more people are likely to be argumentative over the points we're raising.
Yeah, the response to criticism is just to post harder. To drown it out with breathless excitement and dearly-held hopes that the company will stick around for decades.
That and from what I've seen in the Playstation thread, Foot I'm sorry I didn't listen you can take away my coffee :(...but any constructive criticism gets more or less seen as "too negative" by some posters and harshing their positive outlook with the game.
It's like, "Okay, I'll remember this when Horizon 3 comes out and ya'll continue to say the game sucks because Aloy is too forward-thinking and independent".
Omg, I dipped my toe into the PlayStation OT to get up to speed and... Jesus. Like I fuckin can't with that. I almost started sparring with folks in there but I thought to myself, "just sip your coffee, enjoy your morning, and don't catch a ban over this." I don't normally visit that thread and I think I'll keep it that way going forward.
why focus on some posters then? there are other people, like Kyuuji or myself, that while still wanting to play the game, are not shy about critisizing the ridiculous objectification on display. Engage with those, not with the trolls.
Like, you cannot change some people's minds, or educate them. They need to want to educate themselves, and they won't do that with some random forum post telling them they are wrong.
The only solace I take in the Stellar Blade thread is that it's the easiest, prefect example to give whenever people try to brush aside the critique that posters on Era will defend or let problematic crap slide, as long as its for a game said poster(s) like.
It's something I knew for a while, but save Cyberpunk (before its release) and arguably Final Fantasy XVI, it's never been so mask-off levels apparent.
It's something I knew for a while, but save Cyberpunk (before its release) and arguably Final Fantasy XVI, it's never been so mask-off levels apparent.
It is allowed there, it's just that alot of people are using plausible deniability to hide their misogyny and are making those threads into dumpster fires for criticism involving anything other than game mechanics. I checked a few days ago and it's not worth it at all. You'd have a better time talking to a brick wall.
You'll still get people replying to you with bullshit and as easy as it is to suggest ignoring them it does wear on you. You're right that there are people open to the discussion in the thread, as there was in the last one. I think that's why it's important for us to critique as we play, as people already in there and a part of the conversation. Making sure these elements are raised within that as we come across them is easier than people trying to fight a tide.
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You're right. I usually try not to truthfully, but seeing someone edge Planetsmasher on, I just had to throw my two cents in there for that. Most other cases, I've been ignoring others trying to gall me into bad-faith arguments. There's been a lot of moments in that thread where I've rolled my eyes and bit my tongue because it's not worth it as you've said and it's clearly a case with others that no matter what you say it's just going to fall on deaf ears because they don't want to see anything past their own beliefs.
I guarantee you that they do. Every time I try to post about the game's problems in certain threads, people come out in swarms to flood the thread with hype tweets from random journalists or Sony regional branches so that my posts are buried.
Same, here. "Sip your coffee, don't embarrass yourself. Don't make your husband pull his chair out from the dining room that's adjacent and go 'You got banned, didn't you.'..." 🫠
I don't think there is anything wrong with engaging with them, even if it won't change their viewpoints, maybe it will make them go somewhere else if they get challenged whenever the post some misogynistic bullshit.
If we don't want this place to become neogaf over time, standing up for certain ideals shouldn't be discouraged I feel. And engagements like that can have a cumulative effect over time on someone, not always, but sometimes.
This is not by any means to suggest anyone should feel obligated to do so. While I will comment here and there on posts I find repulsive, I usually just add someone or the thread to my ignore list. But have noticed an uptick in the amount of small-minded content as the site grows over time, and the noticeable moderator effort to "keep the peace" as opposed to having some sort of standard they would like for the community.
Another reason, at least for me, is that it feels kinda weird to be active in the OT for a game I'm not actively playing. I'll still lurk it, but I think those who are actually engaging with the material are better equipped to discuss it there. Given I don't have a PS5 I can't really engage with it on the same level as Kyuuji could, and I think her voice is more important there as a result.
But that's just my own quirk. I don't like misinformation so I value actual experience first and foremost.
But that's just my own quirk. I don't like misinformation so I value actual experience first and foremost.
Trying to have a nuanced and honest discussion about the game is a fool's errand at this point.
Discourse will maybe a bit better in 6 months to the end of the year when folks have simmered and the culture warriors have moved on.
Its very obvious that its done out of spite.
If you follow the flow of discussion in these threads its clear when posters are attempting to divert discussion, when:
1)The blind praise is very vague and not related to anything posted in the last couple pages, basically pulled out of thin air
2)When directly or indirectly referenced in posts, there is no attempt to elaborate their position, its to completely ignore it when its very clear that they are closely following the thread.
That being said not a fan of cross-thread drama, but I will say that I relate to the feeling of frustration that users are so invested in their favorite games that they take any type of criticism as a personal attack. The discussion around FF16's issues with racial diversity had similar posting behaviour, which still pisses me off to this day.
All I can say is don't set expectations, and you won't be disappointed.