Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[PAFenix]

I'm currently listening to MinnMax's podcast and they're talking about Stellar Blade. One of the reviewers mentioned how as a character Eve is just boring, despite really enjoying her VA. No real comment about the sexualization. Okay.

But then another one chimed in to add that he had a brief interview with the devs, and he specifically asked if they had a lore reason for Eve being into the costumes.

I shit you not.........the answer:

"Yes, we had a reason why she was interested in the clothing she was finding on desolate earth. But we took that out."

They had considered giving her a personality, even one as trite as "oh wow these clothes are interesting/such a foreign concept." Should we explore that? No, that's still too much. 🤣 The convo then pivoted to how inspired the devs were with the biblical references.

 

[Monstress]

Female default pilot

Spoiler

Alternative outfit

Spoiler

Male default pilot

Spoiler

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Vacuum-sealed outfit for female pilots only, because of course.

 

[coffeecat]

I started replaying Fallout 4 with the new update, and was almost immediately struck by multiple dialog lines where my character was referred to as a guy. I remember this being an issue when the game came out as well, it's like they just forgot to include dialog for women all over the place. Combined with the fact that they pretty obviously wrote the backstory and main plot around playing as a man, default you to being a guy, etc., it almost feels like it might have been an "optional" feature that they added later in development.

There's also the incredibly obvious and perhaps even worse issue where it assumes your character's orientation. You can backwards rationalize it (maybe it was an economic arrangement, or a social expectation, or whatever) but it's a pretty awful choice from a role-playing POV. But like, I don't like guys and being forced into a relationship with one sucks, thanks. Even if you're a cis het person, being laden with a spouse and child and assuming that is a compelling motivation for everyone is... yeah, it's not great. 🤦🏻‍♀️

(Also hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster I guess! I'm scared. 🙀 But just wanna say I really enjoy and appreciate the insights and stories shared in this thread.)

 

[SilentPanda]

Vacuum-sealed outfit for female pilots only, because of course.

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The mecha gameplay and mecha option is pretty fun, and they are also selling "named pilot" with customized color mecha and "origional" pilot with chara specific outfit.
Current is only one male and two female pilot.

Spoiler

 

[Hrist]

The part about it that blows my mind is just that I legitimately cannot see why this game justifies such spirited defense. Maybe it's because I am not particularly interested in sci-fi or the post-apocalypse, but it just looks like a game that excels at literally nothing except misogyny and seeing so many people line up to defend it before they even play it just really throws my brain for a loop.

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I mean, given how often Aloy is mentioned by people falling on their swords to defend Stellar Blade, I'd say the reason has little to do with the quality of the gameplay and all about the perceived victory over "ugly" female characters like Aloy. Making (some) women uncomfortable seems to be part of the point, the point is to drive home who is welcome and who isn't.

Imo, of course. Can't read minds. But Aloy is mentioned suspiciously often if that wasn't it.

 

[Naiad]

I mean, given how often Aloy is mentioned by people falling on their swords to defend Stellar Blade, I'd say the reason has little to do with the quality of the gameplay and all about the perceived victory over "ugly" female characters like Aloy. Making (some) women uncomfortable seems to be part of the point, the point is to drive home who is welcome and who isn't.

Imo, of course. Can't read minds. But Aloy is mentioned suspiciously often if that wasn't it.

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It felt surreal to be in the review topic and see people calling out that Aloy had little characterization inside the topic of a game whose MC has zero at all. I understand that Aloy is not going to hit with people 100%, but it strikes me as a bit tone-deaf and a bit annoying.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

It felt surreal to be in the review topic and see people calling out that Aloy had little characterization inside the topic of a game whose MC has zero at all. I understand that Aloy is not going to hit with people 100%, but it strikes me as a bit tone-deaf and a bit annoying.

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Yeah. Even speaking as someone who doesn't like the Horizon games and thinks Aloy is pretty boring, there's still an absolute OCEAN of difference between "kinda boring chosen one archetype" Aloy and "literal non-character" Eve.

 

[Persephone]

Listen I think Aloy is kind of boring but comparing her to Eve is literally hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby.

 

[Naiad]

Yeah. Even speaking as someone who doesn't like the Horizon games and thinks Aloy is pretty boring, there's still an absolute OCEAN of difference between "kinda boring chosen one archetype" Aloy and "literal non-character" Eve.

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I could see people thinking like that with Aloy and don't really fault anyone for it. It's definitely an overplayed trope.

I feel that her personality really shines in her interactions with Sylens honestly. It's hilarious watching those two speak and you don't really get that spark in many others. Not saying that her dialogue with the rest of the cast is bad per say, but you really don't get that "heat" as you do with Sylens.

God, I'm going to miss Lance Reddick so much.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I could see people thinking like that with Aloy and don't really fault anyone for it. It's definitely an overplayed trope.

I feel that her personality really shines in her interactions with Sylens honestly. It's hilarious watching those two speak and you don't really get that spark in many others. Not saying that her dialogue with the rest of the cast is bad per say, but you really don't get that "heat" as you do with Sylens.

God, I'm going to miss Lance Reddick so much.

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Yeah, one of the central issues I have with Aloy is that the games are so focused on making her SMART and RIGHT and THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN TEACH THESE BACKWATER FOOLS THE RIGHT WAY TO LIVE, and that level of disconnect between protagonist and supporting cast wears me out, especially when we have a game that's set in a post-apocalyptic world but everybody talks like they're normal people in 2015. It doesn't feel like a realistic setting to me in a lot of ways and the ways people talk is one of the main reasons for that.

Sylens was the only character who could meet Aloy on even ground, and it added a lot. Her attitude is less grating when she's not BLATANTLY the smartest person in the room at all times. Know-it-all characters only work for me in small doses, or when they're very carefully counterbalanced with a likeable deuteragonist.

 

[Lumination]

I'm currently listening to MinnMax's podcast and they're talking about Stellar Blade. One of the reviewers mentioned how as a character Eve is just boring, despite really enjoying her VA. No real comment about the sexualization. Okay.

But then another one chimed in to add that he had a brief interview with the devs, and he specifically asked if they had a lore reason for Eve being into the costumes.

I shit you not.........the answer:

"Yes, we had a reason why she was interested in the clothing she was finding on desolate earth. But we took that out."

They had considered giving her a personality, even one as trite as "oh wow these clothes are interesting/such a foreign concept." Should we explore that? No, that's still too much. 🤣 The convo then pivoted to how inspired the devs were with the biblical references.

Click to shrink...

I have been disappointed with MinnMax's two episodes covering it not because of their opinions, but because of all the times to not have any of the women on the show that day...

 

[ozumas]

People bringing Aloy to the conversation to defend Eve are people that haven't watched Steller Blade dialogues or Eve personality or they are simply discussing in bad faith because as much as somebody can find Aloy boring or even dislike her, she has 4242 more times personality than Eve. Dialogues in Stellar Blade are almost insulting and I think Eve would even benefit from being a silent protagonist and the game allow you to chose some dialogues because it is clear Shift up doesn't know how to write dialogues, female characters or even characters in general.

 

[Naiad]

especially when we have a game that's set in a post-apocalyptic world but everybody talks like they're normal people in 2015. It doesn't feel like a realistic setting to me in a lot of ways and the ways people talk is one of the main reasons for that.

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There's a reason for that, won't say it's the best one, but the game does touch upon why they're so fluent in just English at the very least if that's any consolidation to you.

They do absolutely make her seem to be the only smart one and I can see that being relative to her own tribe, the Nora, because they absolutely despise tech....but other tribes like the Karja and Oseram are way more intuitive than they are given credit for in-game. And, Eren is like the worst representative of the ingenuity of the Oseram. Pretty sure Petra is about as smart as Aloy and could understand a lot of stuff if given the chance too. The only other tribe that comes close to knowing more than Aloy (yet still somehow wrong) is the Quen.

 

[memzero64]

I'm currently listening to MinnMax's podcast and they're talking about Stellar Blade. One of the reviewers mentioned how as a character Eve is just boring, despite really enjoying her VA. No real comment about the sexualization. Okay.

But then another one chimed in to add that he had a brief interview with the devs, and he specifically asked if they had a lore reason for Eve being into the costumes.

I shit you not.........the answer:

"Yes, we had a reason why she was interested in the clothing she was finding on desolate earth. But we took that out."

They had considered giving her a personality, even one as trite as "oh wow these clothes are interesting/such a foreign concept." Should we explore that? No, that's still too much. 🤣 The convo then pivoted to how inspired the devs were with the biblical references.

Click to shrink...

God forbid that the woman main character in a video game is ever given any shred of actual femininity in their character or personality that might alienate or not be relatable to the predominantly male dominated gamer demographic.

It's disappointing that even games that don't over-sexualize their character designs still feel they need to over masculinize women to make them more relatable to the male demographic. Like as if they can't just be eye candy for men, they at least need to be "one of guys". They can't be into fashion or jewelry, they are only allowed to be into guns, sports, and tech/gadgets!

 

[NicoNicoRose]

I started replaying Fallout 4 with the new update, and was almost immediately struck by multiple dialog lines where my character was referred to as a guy. I remember this being an issue when the game came out as well, it's like they just forgot to include dialog for women all over the place. Combined with the fact that they pretty obviously wrote the backstory and main plot around playing as a man, default you to being a guy, etc., it almost feels like it might have been an "optional" feature that they added later in development.

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It is irritating especially as Courtenay Taylor's performance as the fem player character is so good that she feels like she should be the default.

Not that I even think the male MC's performance is bad per se from what I've heard of it, but Fallout 4 is one of those instances where I feel like the fem protag's performance elevates the game so, so much. Courtenay Taylor in this game, Cherami Leigh in Cyberpunk, Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, Melissanthi Mahut in Assassin's Creed Odyssey...

 

[ratify]

The part about it that blows my mind is just that I legitimately cannot see why this game justifies such spirited defense. Maybe it's because I am not particularly interested in sci-fi or the post-apocalypse, but it just looks like a game that excels at literally nothing except misogyny and seeing so many people line up to defend it before they even play it just really throws my brain for a loop.

Why couldn't this level of hype be attached to something like Lies of P or Rise of the Ronin? Why is THIS the game that people are so supportive of?

Click to shrink...

Sorry I'm not good with online context. Did you actually want a response to your question or were you just venting?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

It is irritating especially as Courtenay Taylor's performance as the fem player character is so good that she feels like she should be the default.

Not that I even think the male MC's performance is bad per se from what I've heard of it, but Fallout 4 is one of those instances where I feel like the fem protag's performance elevates the game so, so much. Courtenay Taylor in this game, Cherami Leigh in Cyberpunk, Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, Melissanthi Mahut in Assassin's Creed Odyssey...

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I cannot believe that Ubisoft marketing tried to push Alexios as the face of Odyssey. Kassandra is such a better version of that character it blows my mind. Alexios is just a dumb meathead and all of his line reads push that, whereas Mahut nails basically every level of emotion Kass could possibly have.

Sorry I'm not good with online context. Did you actually want a response to your question or were you just venting?

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Speaking honestly, if I was ever put in a room with Sony's head of second party publishing and partnerships, I would absolutely ask him why he thought this game, of all games, was worth pushing in the face of Sony's repeated attempts to push strong, non-sexualized female characters, when there are any number of other independent games they could've invested in instead without this level of insipid misogyny front and center.

I don't think anyone but Sony could give me an answer, and I doubt I'd be satisfied with it even if I got it. So yeah, it's mostly just venting.

 

[PAFenix]

I have been disappointed with MinnMax's two episodes covering it not because of their opinions, but because of all the times to not have any of the women on the show that day...

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Definitely a head scratcher lol Janet Garcia has been swapped in after the discussion is over and I'm pretty sure she's mentioned playing the demo at least.

 

[Naiad]

It's disappointing that even games that don't over-sexualize their character designs still feel they need to over masculinize women to make them more relatable to the male demographic. Like as if they can't just be eye candy for men, they at least need to be "one of guys". They can't be into fashion or jewelry, they are only allowed to be into guns, sports, and tech/gadgets!

Click to shrink...

I don't see women having hobbies such as guns, sports, and tech as "over-masculining" women. That's setting up a dangerous precedent that hobbies are defined by gender roles only and to be into something either makes you feminine or masculine. By all means, am I suddenly a more "masculine woman" because I enjoy video games? Am I suddenly being masculine for liking Command & Conquer?

In that instance, is a man suddenly feminine for liking flowers? For caring about the fashion brands that he wears?

Hobbies do not have set genders that they apply to and the people who think that they do are part of the problem.

 

[toomanyalmonds]

With only 16 slots and the minuscule budget, Nen Impact is probably going to have one of the worst gender ratios in a fighting game. Probably getting 12 men, 3 woman and 1 non binary character. It's a real shame, the series is in a really good place nowadays and definitely the best in shonen. I hope Machi will at least get the tracksuit and the wolf cut as alt costume, it's her best look.

 

[Kyle Cross]

I need to stop going into the SB threads, I don't know why I keep doing this to myself.

 

[MoonlitSeer]

God, I'm going to miss Lance Reddick so much.

Click to shrink...

Same. I loved him in absolutely every role he's been in. The world is a worse place without him around.

I don't see women having hobbies such as guns, sports, and tech as "over-masculining" women. That's setting up a dangerous precedent that hobbies are defined by gender roles only and to be into something either makes you feminine or masculine. By all means, am I suddenly a more "masculine woman" because I enjoy video games? Am I suddenly being masculine for liking Command & Conquer?

In that instance, is a man suddenly feminine for liking flowers? For caring about the fashion brands that he wears?

Hobbies do not have set genders that they apply to and the people who think that they do are part of the problem.

Click to shrink...

Guess I'm just not allowed to like mecha anymore. Too masculine, you know.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Same. I loved him in absolutely every role he's been in. The world is a worse place without him around.

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I started watching Fringe for the first time right after Lance died, and the show lost me as soon as his character got pushed into a recurring background part. I don't think the show works without Broyles.

 

[MoonlitSeer]

I started watching Fringe for the first time right after Lance died, and the show lost me as soon as his character got pushed into a recurring background part. I don't think the show works without Broyles.

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I think that's exactly where I stopped watching it, too. Can't quite recall because it was while it was still airing, but he was one of my favourite characters!

 

[Kyuuji]

Listen I think Aloy is kind of boring but comparing her to Eve is literally hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby.

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Feel the same about Aloy and yeh, there's more personality in the opening cutscene of Horizon than in hours of gameplay so far.

God, I'm going to miss Lance Reddick so much.

Click to shrink...

His loss is really felt. He was more than his roles but the hole in Destiny is painful.

 

[MoonlitSeer]

His loss is really felt. He was more than his roles but the hole in Destiny is painful.

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I can never go back to playing Destiny, but I'm not sure I'd really want to anymore without him.

 

[ventuno]

[Hidden content]

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Your saying this gave me pause in a good way. It made me realize that sometimes I feel like I have to make sure that I accompany praise for certain characters or stories as a disclaimer so anything I say doesn't somehow get used to downplay some criticism. It goes beyond striving for nuance, accuracy and justness when expressing my opinions and it really is frustrating to have to do extra work for something that I can summarize as simply as "but this isn't my fault!"

Thankyou! That really helps refine my thought process on it all.

It sucks, it's the sort of titillation that most media left behind decades ago.

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You're welcome! This thread has been really great for being able to reflect on issues that get shoved out of main discussion hubs.

I'd say there's at least been a motion to be less publicly sexist and dismissive about it, but as the fuss around Stellar Blade proves (amongst other things), many people were just waiting to drop the act and undo all the work we thought we had done.

 

[Naiad]

Guess I'm just not allowed to like mecha anymore. Too masculine, you know.

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Throw it out, you can only like mecha if they're pink and white transformers with heart stickers and bedazzled.

His loss is really felt. He was more than his roles but the hole in Destiny is painful.

Click to shrink...

It truly, truly is. The man was such a great seasoned actor no matter what role he played. This is great.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU-2C8Ec6co

Edit: Wanted to include the FULL skit.

 

[Isilia]

Plenty of weirdly sexual mecha out there. I suppose that's the stuff for the girls.

Especially if they have whips. Women love whips.

...Especially when Zech's Gundam has one. Phew.

 

[MoonlitSeer]

Throw it out, you can only like mecha if they're pink and white transformers with heart stickers and bedazzled.

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I.. I do like Arcee. And ya know, Char's Zaku is sometimes pink! I guess he's for the girls.
No he's not.

 

[coffeecat]

I don't see women having hobbies such as guns, sports, and tech as "over-masculining" women. That's setting up a dangerous precedent that hobbies are defined by gender roles only and to be into something either makes you feminine or masculine. By all means, am I suddenly a more "masculine woman" because I enjoy video games? Am I suddenly being masculine for liking Command & Conquer?

In that instance, is a man suddenly feminine for liking flowers? For caring about the fashion brands that he wears?

Hobbies do not have set genders that they apply to and the people who think that they do are part of the problem.

Click to shrink...

I think both can be valid, right? I definitely want games where traditionally feminine characters are shown positively and valued equally to more masculine ones, and ideally for games to be able to explore those characters fully in terms of depth and screen time. They're much less common in the triple-A space, but they are definitely tons out there if you're willing to look more at mid budget or indie games.

But it's also hard to deny most mainstream games deal in themes that are centered around violence and power, which can make it harder (obviously not impossible) to fit in themes outside of that. It's not surprising that someone like Lara Croft or Kait Diaz is going to mostly put on tactical gear and shoot guns, and I think it's awesome that we have women who are just as capable action heroes as men.

What I would personally like to see more is more games where the women are clearly written and designed by women, not men. I just played through Gravity Rush on PS4 and I loved the main character for being feminine and having a positive personality and relationships... but the game is constantly derailed by her costume designs, the creepy comments about her appearance and scenes like where a man

Spoiler: CW sexual harassment

bumps into her and knock her bathtowel off for "comedy".

Another recent example was Far Cry 5, where many scenes and especially the ending comes across so, so much worse if you're a woman, to the point of being outright triggering for people. I could barely believe it shipped that way. That one was honestly disgusting and made me pretty much swear off Ubisoft games going forward... along with all the, you know, "other stuff" at Ubisoft.

We talk a lot about male gaze in games, but maybe just as problematic is the continued trend of men making games, who are blind on how scenes or dialog will come across to women. We would have so much more depth in our writing, but also more likely avoid these pitfalls, if there was more inclusion and awareness behind the scenes.

 

[BearBobomb]

View: https://youtu.be/Dh4dDyRNPvg

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I shit you not.........the answer:

"Yes, we had a reason why she was interested in the clothing she was finding on desolate earth. But we took that out."

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I mean considering the quality of writing in the game, I'd expect some Kojima level reasoning.

 

[Abdiel]

Yeah, one of the central issues I have with Aloy is that the games are so focused on making her SMART and RIGHT and THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN TEACH THESE BACKWATER FOOLS THE RIGHT WAY TO LIVE, and that level of disconnect between protagonist and supporting cast wears me out, especially when we have a game that's set in a post-apocalyptic world but everybody talks like they're normal people in 2015. It doesn't feel like a realistic setting to me in a lot of ways and the ways people talk is one of the main reasons for that.

Sylens was the only character who could meet Aloy on even ground, and it added a lot. Her attitude is less grating when she's not BLATANTLY the smartest person in the room at all times. Know-it-all characters only work for me in small doses, or when they're very carefully counterbalanced with a likeable deuteragonist.

Click to shrink...

Maybe the first game suffered more from this, but the the sequel has a lot more characters who are aware or directly informed of the older world to act a foils for dialogue and I think that helped a lot.

And the dlc was great. I've always liked Aloy as a protagonist but it was great to see more nuanced interactions with more vibrant characters. I can get why not everyone likes her, but it bothers me a bit that she gets used as a target by so many chuds as a perceived easy target since she's less "conventionally attractive" and more "masculine" of a hero lead. They can fuck off. As if those things are somehow negatives.

Anyone making those comparisons to Eve falls flat on their face though, it's disingenuous at its core, even if you dislike Aloy for some reason, Eve isn't in the same realm of being a defined... everything we've seen shows she's a blank.

 

[Hrist]

I wouldn't say we don't have many games with feminine female characters. Less in action games, sure, but battle dresses aren't really that rare - I genuinely have a harder time finding female characters that aren't feminine. Butch women are pretty much nonexistent, sadly.

Not that I'm unhappy with feminine characters as such - playing a game called Puzzles for Clef right now, little puzzle game starring a cute rabbit in a dress. Fluffy and cute.

Listen I think Aloy is kind of boring but comparing her to Eve is literally hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby.

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Yeah, I wouldn't exactly call myself a horizon fan either - Aloy has just been such a lightning rod in the sludge discourse of "they are making the women ugly!!!111one" it's just notable when she of all characters keeps being dropped.

 

[Naiad]

I think both can be valid, right? I definitely want games where traditionally feminine characters are shown positively and valued equally to more masculine ones, and ideally for games to be able to explore those characters fully in terms of depth and screen time. They're much less common in the triple-A space, but they are definitely tons out there if you're willing to look more at mid budget or indie games.

But it's also hard to deny most mainstream games deal in themes that are centered around violence and power, which can make it harder (obviously not impossible) to fit in themes outside of that. It's not surprising that someone like Lara Croft or Kait Diaz is going to mostly put on tactical gear and shoot guns, and I think it's awesome that we have women who are just as capable action heroes as men.

What I would personally like to see more is more games where the women are clearly written and designed by women, not men. I just played through Gravity Rush on PS4 and I loved the main character for being feminine and having a positive personality and relationships... but the game is constantly derailed by her costume designs, the creepy comments about her appearance and scenes like where a man

Spoiler: CW sexual harassment

bumps into her and knock her bathtowel off for "comedy".

Another recent example was Far Cry 5, where many scenes and especially the ending comes across so, so much worse if you're a woman, to the point of being outright triggering for people. I could barely believe it shipped that way. That one was honestly disgusting and made me pretty much swear off Ubisoft games going forward... along with all the, you know, "other stuff" at Ubisoft.

We talk a lot about male gaze in games, but maybe just as problematic is the continued trend of men making games, who are blind on how scenes or dialog will come across to women. We would have so much more depth in our writing, but also more likely avoid these pitfalls, if there was more inclusion and awareness behind the scenes.

Click to shrink...

I guess for me, I don't see a disconnection or the need for those kinds of distinctions for characters that are women. For instance, take Bayonetta as someone who uses a gun but absolutely uses her sexuality and feminine charms as part of her character. The guns do nothing to detract from her being feminine nor do they make her masculine in any way. Women can like fashion and jewelry and equally be badass at the same time as these are not mutually exclusive qualities.

The only reason why certain hobbies and things have a gender value at all is because of patriarchal societal norms that have been outdated for the longest of times and proven to only be divisive rather than empowering to women at all.

 

[MoonlitSeer]

I guess for me, I don't see a disconnection or the need for those kinds of distinctions for characters that are women. For instance, take Bayonetta as someone who uses a gun but absolutely uses her sexuality and feminine charms as part of her character. The guns do nothing to detract from her being feminine nor do they make her masculine in any way. Women can like fashion and jewelry and equally be badass at the same time as these are not mutually exclusive qualities.

The only reason why certain hobbies and things have a gender value at all is because of patriarchal societal norms that have been outdated for the longest of times and proven to only be divisive rather than empowering to women at all.

Click to shrink...

This is exactly why I like Elphelt in Strive. On the surface she has this fairly stereotypical fluffy pink dress look (albeity with some punk highlights), but then she's heading a metal band with gruff vocals and is toting around a big gun. Does that detract from her femininity in any way? No. In fact not much is actually made of it. It's just part of who she is and it isn't questioned.

It's a conversation I've had a lot with friends, about how what we view as gendered hobbies shouldn't define how masculine/feminine a person is. That's up for themselves to define. At the same time, though, I'm not quite sure how to work through the block there of "what then defines femininity/masculinity?" It's something I still need to work out.

 

[Naiad]

This is exactly why I like Elphelt in Strive. On the surface she has this fairly stereotypical fluffy pink dress look (albeity with some punk highlights), but then she's heading a metal band with gruff vocals and is toting around a big gun. Does that detract from her femininity in any way? No. In fact not much is actually made of it. It's just part of who she is and it isn't questioned.

It's a conversation I've had a lot with friends, about how what we view as gendered hobbies shouldn't define how masculine/feminine a person is. That's up for themselves to define. At the same time, though, I'm not quite sure how to work through the block there of "what then defines femininity/masculinity?" It's something I still need to work out.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much. I like playing RTS games like Command & Conquer because they're good for my brain and I have no issue with micro-management games. It was part of my childhood.

That doesn't stop me from getting my nails done and looking cute.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

[coffeecat]

I guess for me, I don't see a disconnection or the need for those kinds of distinctions for characters that are women. For instance, take Bayonetta as someone who uses a gun but absolutely uses her sexuality and feminine charms as part of her character. The guns do nothing to detract from her being feminine nor do they make her masculine in any way. Women can like fashion and jewelry and equally be badass at the same time as these are not mutually exclusive qualities.

The only reason why certain hobbies and things have a gender value at all is because of patriarchal societal norms that have been outdated for the longest of times and proven to only be divisive rather than empowering to women at all.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, to be clear I agree 1000% with what you're saying here and I'm so sorry if my comment came across as diminishing that!

I just really wish we had far more diverse expressions of people in games, period, whether that's fashion, presentation, body types, gender, races and ethnicities, levels of ability, age ranges, personalities and interests, and more. Those things matter to people (even if some of them are social constructs), and yet at the same time do not and should not define them. There is absolutely room for it, developers just need to make it.

 

[red_shift_ltd]

It's a conversation I've had a lot with friends, about how what we view as gendered hobbies shouldn't define how masculine/feminine a person is. That's up for themselves to define. At the same time, though, I'm not quite sure how to work through the block there of "what then defines femininity/masculinity?" It's something I still need to work out.

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+1 on Guilty Gear and it's representation. It's my favorite fighting game series because of the evolution of the characters and the willingness to just let them be who they are.

I've been thinking about that a lot lately too. Beyond the stuff about how historically gender norms have been assigned all over the place I settled on "Does it make me happy?" as me determination. I still struggle with the patriarchal values I was brought up with but I try to be brave and just be me. I can be a swordfighter and paint my nails and present male, it's ok. I want to live in a world where everyone can safely express themselves too so I try and support people when they embrace their nature.

 

[Naiad]

Yeah, to be clear I agree 1000% with what you're saying here and I'm so sorry if my comment came across as diminishing that!

I just really wish we had far more diverse expressions of people in games, period, whether that's fashion, presentation, body types, gender, races and ethnicities, levels of ability, age ranges, personalities and interests, and more. Those things matter to people (even if some of them are social constructs), and yet at the same time do not and should not define them. There is absolutely room for it, developers just need to make it.

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What I tend to find is that there are a lot more indie and mobile/gacha games willing to market towards the aspects of fashion (probably because fashion is an easy thing to market gacha on in general) and it really depends on the developer at large like you said.

You compare outfits made in Love Nikki to Genshin or Honkai and you'll see the clear distinctions of the developer's opinion about that. I haven't really found an outfit in Love Nikki that's objectifying, but I've seen plenty from Mihoyo.

I would love to see an action game that gives me the ability to customize looks without making me feel like I shouldn't be playing the game 100%. Horizon kind of hits that niche for me as I've gotten into action RPG's quite a bit, but sadly the market for good action RPG's representation of women in a tasteful manner is far and few in between. Let me play dress-up and have sick combat please.

 

[Tamino]

View: https://youtu.be/Dh4dDyRNPvg

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Firstly, this is a great thread that has taught me a lot. This thread got me to sign up for an account after years lurking. I followed from the previous site which I also lurked.

But I've been bothered by the "increasing polarization" point that keeps being repeated. The world has always been very polarized. I mean, I don't think we'll be seeing world peace any time soon. I'm from the US so limit that to just the US if desired. It's just that through better technology and a hard-earned tolerance of different viewpoints, more and more diverse voices are being heard. The voices tend to be "angrier" because the most motivated people are the people most likely to want to shout, so to speak. It's amplified further when the very motivated are also good programmers and/or have deep pockets.

There's still a "default position" of many things in the US but it isn't as strong as it used to be. The one dominant pole of the recent past was not good place to be in my opinion (I'm a black male). Some people disagree with my opinion in some ways or other. So here we are. I do wish the disagreements would be more civil. But considering some of the positions of the past dominant pole and some resentments, reprisals , etc, some incivility is to be expected.

 

[Kyuuji]

I wouldn't say we don't have many games with feminine female characters. Less in action games, sure, but battle dresses aren't really that rare - I genuinely have a harder time finding female characters that aren't feminine. Butch women are pretty much nonexistent, sadly.

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For me it's not as much that they aren't there, rather that the higher budget and larger the release the more highly-feminine female characters are victim to sexualised elements that scream low hanging fruit more than anything more considered. It usually feels like a man's view/interpretation of the feminine as opposed to a woman's relationship with it, even if elements they each work to accentuate can and do overlap. Which is why it's often jarring as you have this clash of relatability and unappealing elements. Granted I like the juxtaposition of a female character who revels in femininity crossed with things that would clash on a thematic level, which makes it more difficult to find, but it's still been something I've felt for awhile now when it comes to feminine leads in general.

The issue at large is not enough women leading in the creation of female characters, which filters down into how women are represented in both the masculine and the feminine. So this isn't a counter to suggest butch women have it any easier, but rather to say finding elements that embrace femininity and aren't pigeonholed into a cutesy game or a hyper-sexualised one are fewer than they seem when we break from indie titles.

 

[memzero64]

I don't see women having hobbies such as guns, sports, and tech as "over-masculining" women. That's setting up a dangerous precedent that hobbies are defined by gender roles only and to be into something either makes you feminine or masculine. By all means, am I suddenly a more "masculine woman" because I enjoy video games? Am I suddenly being masculine for liking Command & Conquer?

In that instance, is a man suddenly feminine for liking flowers? For caring about the fashion brands that he wears?

Hobbies do not have set genders that they apply to and the people who think that they do are part of the problem.

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That's reductive of my point, but I 100% agree that hobbies and interests shouldn't have designated gender roles and that is the problem. But it is naive to think most players won't associate hobbies and interests with traditional gender roles. The point is games don't want to alienate the predominantly straight male target demographic and thus avoid giving their main characters traits or interests that the player find too "feminine".

 

[Messofanego]

God, I'm going to miss Lance Reddick so much.

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What really sucks is Lance Reddick talking about how systemic racism affected his career after The Wire and the roles he was getting. And just as he was getting an uptick in roles recently, he passes away.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aWLEMCe2S0

 

[Commander Quackers]

I'm currently listening to MinnMax's podcast and they're talking about Stellar Blade. One of the reviewers mentioned how as a character Eve is just boring, despite really enjoying her VA. No real comment about the sexualization. Okay.

But then another one chimed in to add that he had a brief interview with the devs, and he specifically asked if they had a lore reason for Eve being into the costumes.

I shit you not.........the answer:

"Yes, we had a reason why she was interested in the clothing she was finding on desolate earth. But we took that out."

They had considered giving her a personality, even one as trite as "oh wow these clothes are interesting/such a foreign concept." Should we explore that? No, that's still too much. 🤣 The convo then pivoted to how inspired the devs were with the biblical references.

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Unbelievable, can't have the sex doll be too independent, might scare chuds

I started replaying Fallout 4 with the new update, and was almost immediately struck by multiple dialog lines where my character was referred to as a guy. I remember this being an issue when the game came out as well, it's like they just forgot to include dialog for women all over the place. Combined with the fact that they pretty obviously wrote the backstory and main plot around playing as a man, default you to being a guy, etc., it almost feels like it might have been an "optional" feature that they added later in development.

There's also the incredibly obvious and perhaps even worse issue where it assumes your character's orientation. You can backwards rationalize it (maybe it was an economic arrangement, or a social expectation, or whatever) but it's a pretty awful choice from a role-playing POV. But like, I don't like guys and being forced into a relationship with one sucks, thanks. Even if you're a cis het person, being laden with a spouse and child and assuming that is a compelling motivation for everyone is... yeah, it's not great. 🤦🏻‍♀️

(Also hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster I guess! I'm scared. 🙀 But just wanna say I really enjoy and appreciate the insights and stories shared in this thread.)

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Yea the intro really paints your ability to role play into a corner.

 

[Morrigan]

I don't see women having hobbies such as guns, sports, and tech as "over-masculining" women. That's setting up a dangerous precedent that hobbies are defined by gender roles only and to be into something either makes you feminine or masculine. By all means, am I suddenly a more "masculine woman" because I enjoy video games? Am I suddenly being masculine for liking Command & Conquer?

In that instance, is a man suddenly feminine for liking flowers? For caring about the fashion brands that he wears?

Hobbies do not have set genders that they apply to and the people who think that they do are part of the problem.

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Thank you. I give lots of side-eye to that post myself honestly. "they need to over masculinize women", like, excuse me?

 

[The Ethereal One]

View: https://youtu.be/Dh4dDyRNPvg

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I was getting ready to post this video in here despite having yet to sit and watch it myself. I thought some of her takes in her video about attractiveness in western games were weird/off so I wonder what her stance here is.

 

[Naiad]

Thank you. I give lots of side-eye to that post myself honestly. "they need to over masculinize women", like, excuse me?

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You're welcome. I had the same reaction myself which is what prompted me to respond and then being told it's naive of me to think that most gamers aren't going to look past the sexist traditional gender role stigmas. No, it's not naivety. It's called "I expect better and should expect better" from the men perpetuating the very damn stigma that they created as a means to control and oppress women in what they do, how they should behave, and what was "created" for them to enjoy. Let's not beat around the bush here when we say "most players".

It's never been about alienating the straight male demographic because characters are too "feminine", it's always been about alienating other people like women, trans, and minorities into feeling that they don't belong in video games. The generic straight men playing video games with characters that are women are not going to care that the woman is into fashion, guns, jewelry, etc, and feel alienated by them not being "one of the boys" so long as you give them T&A. Those types of gamers were never interested in women having a personality beyond their body in the first place.

 

[TrendingNonGamer]

I mean considering the quality of writing in the game, I'd expect some Kojima level reasoning.

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She breathes by jiggling