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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
The ironic part is the majority of regular people (at least in the US) would see them playing this and still react the same way as seeing them play a porn game lol.
It's like if I want to watch Porn I'll just watch porn. Porn is funny enough cheaper than a video game. I don't get why every game needs to have T&A shoved in my face. It's honestly why I tend to just cover up the women characters decently if I have the option to.
I think anxiety over this point isn't worth the headache. "Sex sells" is as old as time. It's not as if other devs are completely unaware of the option of it, and Stellar Blade is hardly the only successful game on the market that capitalizes on a cute lady protagonist as a selling point.
The reason other devs aren't going to all immediately spring to the sex-doll aesthetic isn't because they didn't know about it until now. They just have more integrity than Hyung Tae Kim.
Fucking thing about Stellar Blade is that even if there were reasonable outfits it wouldn't change the character framing and camera focus/placement. Shit was noticeable all the way back to the first trailers that showed up for the game. Not even gonna re-post that video from a bunch of pages ago. When the camera isn't going directly into the ass the ass comes directly to the camera.
Kinda a separate but related thing I've been thinking about is how odd it is to have such direct and massive sexualization but no context for it whatsoever. As in it doesn't matter to or effect any part of the characters/story. Not a bayonetta situation of the character owning it/doing it with purpose but also not something pushed upon them/used as abuse or even recognized. No other characters seem to notice or react either. It's literally all for the audience and has no bearing on her personality or situation.
Kind of a fragment of a thought but something that I've been kicking around.
Kinda a separate but related thing I've been thinking about is how odd it is to have such direct and massive sexualization but no context for it whatsoever. As in it doesn't matter to or effect any part of the characters/story. Not a bayonetta situation of the character owning it/doing it with purpose but also not something pushed upon them/used as abuse or even recognized. No other characters seem to notice or react either. It's literally all for the audience and has no bearing on her personality or situation.
Kind of a fragment of a thought but something that I've been kicking around.
I know I'm baffled at the so-called appeal of playing as some combat warrior going to war with mutant aliens or whatever and it's impossible for the character to wear anything resembling armor. I just... what even is this vibe? Not a single part of this emotionless sex doll wearing varying degrees of lace and latex makes a lick of diegetic sense in regards to every other part of the game. They couldn't make it more clear that they've made an unserious toy for pervy juveniles.
Not surprising at all. These chuds want attractive women, but they don't want them to have any agency or power. That's the reason for all the hate Alanah discussed in the above video that she got for her awards show dress - she's knows what she looks like, she enjoys it and enjoys showing it off, and they HATE that. Same with Bayonetta - a character who is sexualised but owns it confidently and makes it part of her personality. They want women who look like Alanah or Bayonetta, but only if they don't know they look like Alanah or Bayonetta - because if they know, then they have influence.
This is so true. They are championing obviously sexualized characters like Eve, while constantly shitting on sex workers, onlyfans models, twitch streamers who show some skin etc. Crying about how they exploit men, how their dads must all be ashamed and so on.
Yeah, once you cross into the big budget games, it's men falling over each other to make their fantasy wives, and "feminine" often becomes code, the way certain gamers use it. I still think that "overly masculine" women aren't really a thing in games (sadly, for me, who'd like a butch character once in a while - I found the post arguing 'over masculinizing' was even a thing to be really jarring, because it's just not imo), but it would be nice to have more femininity not from a male perspective in bigger budget games for sure. :/
They want property. Sex workers are people with their own wishes that exist for themselves, not for (insert generic dude), and that just riles them up. I don't think it's unrelated how anime content aimed at this demographic is now infested with male """heroes""" buying slave women.
They're all just a bunch of sexually repressed men who are filled with rage. Real women will receive their hatred when they show the ability to express their sexuality at all, (in a way these men could never fathom) and these dweebs know they would be rejected by any of them in real life which only compounds their anger.
Eve in Stellar Blade has no agency. The fact that she is a glorified doll is no coincidence either, as this is the exact non-threatening, risk free, type of interaction with a sexually on-demand "female" that they can feel comfortable with. Something digital, and completely fabricated for their personal sexual gratification. An automaton that is unable to make them feel shame.
All this subconscious shame and self-hatred is directed at real women and "the libs", while they jerk off to the very things they pretend to be against. It's a sad, hypocritical existence. Thank god most of them never leave their homes, and we only have to deal with them online.
*edit*
Not that they don't go after gay men like myself, but it is interesting that I do feel like there is far more vitriol towards women, and I think there is some level of repressed homosexuality at play as well for a lot of them that only comes out when it's something they are interacting with in the physical world. Online, they can keep it secret. Who knows.
Eve in Stellar Blade has no agency. The fact that she is a glorified doll is no coincidence either, as this is the exact non-threatening, risk free, type of interaction with a sexually on-demand "female" that they can feel comfortable with. Something digital, and completely fabricated for their personal sexual gratification. An automaton that is unable to make them feel shame.
All this subconscious shame and self-hatred is directed at real women and "the libs", while they jerk off to the very things they pretend to be against. It's a sad, hypocritical existence. Thank god most of them never leave their homes, and we only have to deal with them online.
*edit*
Not that they don't go after gay men like myself, but it is interesting that I do feel like there is far more vitriol towards women, and I think there is some level of repressed homosexuality at play as well for a lot of them that only comes out when it's something they are interacting with in the physical world. Online, they can keep it secret. Who knows.
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Literally all of this(in bold) is true, well said!
And they're getting worse somehow!
This is one of the most insane trends in an already embarrassing genre that I've seen in a long time. It's truly mind boggling. The fact that there are entire teams of people/companies making this shit is highly concerning.
Sometimes, I'd rather their internet access be magically made to be unavailable too. It can be exhausting online at times.
Oh absolutely. Im just glad to get a break from them in some realms of social society at all. Until we have some sort of Real ID associated internet presence, they will always hide behind anonymity online I feel.
*edit again* I'm way too worked up lately, I'm just ranting all the time haha
I genuinely cannot believe it's something that is getting ANY sort of play. It's extremely troubling that companies seem to think it's a viable storytelling conceit, much less viable enough to have a whole bunch of franchises serving it.
This is the first time I have ever heard of vagina bones and I'm dying. Having flashbacks to when an old friend's co-worker shared his poorly written erotica with her. He had no concept of female anatomy/how to describe sex whatsoever, despite having a girlfriend. We were both baffled.
Alanah Pearce made some good points in her video, particularly regarding women sexualized in games being celebrated yet actual women enjoying their bodies and sexuality are shamed. Other users in this thread also shared some great thoughts expanding on this topic in turn. Pearce has mentioned a few times how she purposefully dresses down and wears baggy shirts on her channel as otherwise her comment section turns overly judgmental, which is awful.
Damn, it's frustrating the dev team took that out. As there is such a focus on outfits in Stellar Blade, I would have loved if Eve had an active growing interest in old world fashion. It would also help to smooth over the more anachronistic nature of some of the outfits in the post-apocalyptic science fiction setting*. It seems like there are other old world collectibles, so it would have been easy enough for Eve to have a fascination with all things from the world that came before. (Maybe Eve does in-game, and I just haven't seen it mentioned.)
*I annoy myself so much with outfits in any game. For Stellar Blade, while a lot of the old world outfits are less objectifying -- Red Passion is fabulous! -- they clash anachronistically with the setting. My eternal media torment between world logic and nice outfits remains.
I hadn't watched any coverage on Stellar Blade from MinnMax, but that's really disappointing to read. What drew me to the channel last year was the passionate GOTY discussions where the group thoroughly talked in depth about the positives and negatives of each game whilst having a fun time with each other. Their approach to Stellar Blade seems antithetical to what I liked about the channel in the first place.
Fantastic post in general, and you verbalized something I'd felt over the years but wasn't actively cognizant of: the 'clash of relatability and unappealing elements' is so on point.
For a personal example, I'd love to play the Atelier series. I hadn't realized until recently that the basic premise was generally young women running an alchemy workshop with a side of Entrepreneurship! Saving a loved one! Going on adventures with friends! Mysteries to uncover! Relaxing gameplay loop! It personally appeals to the nostalgia of media and genres I adored when I was a kid, and yet also still appeals to me as an adult with a core premise that is still quite refreshing for a video game. (Some indie games have also followed similar concepts, which is great.) Of course, for every great character design, there's another that's awful and sexualized. It's that clash of relatability and unappealing elements that I find myself so conflicted with, simultaneously being drawn to it yet irritated by it all at once. It's a similar situation with Stellar Blade -- there are gameplay and art design elements I really like, and others I'm extremely frustrated by.
Echoing what everyone has said, there is absolutely not enough diversity in voice and perspective for designing and writing female characters. Depressingly, it applies to all characters in general, really. Sigh.
Damn, it's frustrating the dev team took that out. As there is such a focus on outfits in Stellar Blade, I would have loved if Eve had an active growing interest in old world fashion. It would also help to smooth over the more anachronistic nature of some of the outfits in the post-apocalyptic science fiction setting*. It seems like there are other old world collectibles, so it would have been easy enough for Eve to have a fascination with all things from the world that came before. (Maybe Eve does in-game, and I just haven't seen it mentioned.)
*I annoy myself so much with outfits in any game. For Stellar Blade, while a lot of the old world outfits are less objectifying -- Red Passion is fabulous! -- they clash anachronistically with the setting. My eternal media torment between world logic and nice outfits remains.
I hadn't watched any coverage on Stellar Blade from MinnMax, but that's really disappointing to read. What drew me to the channel last year was the passionate GOTY discussions where the group thoroughly talked in depth about the positives and negatives of each game whilst having a fun time with each other. Their approach to Stellar Blade seems antithetical to what I liked about the channel in the first place.
Fantastic post in general, and you verbalized something I'd felt over the years but wasn't actively cognizant of: the 'clash of relatability and unappealing elements' is so on point.
For a personal example, I'd love to play the Atelier series. I hadn't realized until recently that the basic premise was generally young women running an alchemy workshop with a side of Entrepreneurship! Saving a loved one! Going on adventures with friends! Mysteries to uncover! Relaxing gameplay loop! It personally appeals to the nostalgia of media and genres I adored when I was a kid, and yet also still appeals to me as an adult with a core premise that is still quite refreshing for a video game. (Some indie games have also followed similar concepts, which is great.) Of course, for every great character design, there's another that's awful and sexualized. It's that clash of relatability and unappealing elements that I find myself so conflicted with, simultaneously being drawn to it yet irritated by it all at once. It's a similar situation with Stellar Blade -- there are gameplay and art design elements I really like, and others I'm extremely frustrated by.
Echoing what everyone has said, there is absolutely not enough diversity in voice and perspective for designing and writing female characters. Depressingly, it applies to all characters in general, really. Sigh.
We've mentioned Bayonetta a lot, but I'll have to mention her again because she's such a good example: there actually was a vocal minority of chuds criticizing Bayonetta for her confidence and the way she carries herself. They shamed her for her pride and mentioned that she sends a bad message to women about how they should act. Really puts some things in perspective.
They celebrate Eve because it is clear that every single aspect of her is designed to service them, so they feel they have power over something they covet. It's not just sexuality, it's not just attractiveness, it's the very idea of a woman being made completely available to them without having to consider her feelings, her wants, what any of this means for her. They should just have her, even the most mundane moments (she can't even walk without that moment being turned into a gratifying moment for these chuds by way of a camera angle).
A woman walking down the street might not even notice them for whatever reason, a woman on the internet might not be reading their tweets or want to engage with their response to hers and that's the kind of thing they can't stand. They celebrate the presentation of Eve because they can band together and tell each other that their gross, creepy entitlement is okay and brandish that message to the world loudly if they just band together. Even the little comments about how their wife, girlfriend, great aunt from Denmark and third cousin twice removed love Eve is just about serving their message.
It's been super interesting reading the criticisms of the game here and I'm not surprised it's mostly dismissed by most outlets. From the jump, Eve just put me off. She's just….weird. That infamous gif is just fucking weird. It's so weird that Eve is more of a doll than 2B who's literally a robot. Eve's ass looks to be on display at all times. That comment from the developers about wanting to design an attractive backside because that's what the players will be looking at is so weird. This game is somehow more creepy to me than the Dead or Alive Xtreme series. Those games at least fully admit what they're all about. Some of you hit the nail on the head on what I find so creepy about SB. Eve has no agency. When the camera zooms in on Bayonetta, it's because she allows it to. She's in control. She knows she's sexy. She owns it. When the camera zooms in on Eve it feels like it's just creeping one her without her knowledge all for the pleasure of the player. I think there's a difference between a character design that's sexy and a character design that's horny. Eve is the latter. She exists to be ogled.
I know some of you here are playing the game so I'd be curious to see if there are more creepy gifs like the upskirt one and how frequent they are. I'm also curious about Eve as a character. 2B is a horny character but helps that to me she ended up being a pretty good character and had a very sweet relationship with 9S. Is Eve actually a character with a personality? Something as simple as her being really into fashion would go a long way. But without that it just comes across as a way to let perverts dress up a doll.
I know some of you here are playing the game so I'd be curious to see if there are more creepy gifs like the upskirt one and how frequent they are. I'm also curious about Eve as a character. 2B is a horny character but helps that to me she ended up being a pretty good character and had a very sweet relationship with 9S. Is Eve actually a character with a personality? Something as simple as her being really into fashion would go a long way. But without that it just comes across as a way to let perverts dress up a doll.
she isn't, and that's ironically part of the problem. She's made for horny people, but the character itself has no urgency, she's just a anime cutesy hero. She is not Bayonetta (who IS horny, which is the point obviously), like you said, she's just a sex doll, in fact, she literally looks like a sex doll (and so does Tachy, thats another character), as in, the way they textured the characters has this real "doll" look to them.
Here, this is as far as personality EVE has probably, I dunno I only played the demo for now (to be fair, this is kinda cute, why not more of this and less of...you know)
View: https://x.com/Genki_JPN/status/1783912140417671598
And even here they had to include a little "cute giggle" so, you know...
edit: wait you said 2B not EVE my bad. My point stands >_>
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MAX(Dood) just said on stream that he's staying far away from the game. He said the discourse is too toxic that he doesn't really want to be apart of it.
It's sparse but there are moments where she does have some personality. Islands in the void if you will, but they're appreciated. Cans are one of them as you say, and for added context there's a bit of dialogue between Lily and Eve where Lily is curious and it's noted that Eve's not seen cans of drink before and finds them a cool curiosity and asks Lily to build her a cabinet to store them.
Hard for me to say authoritatively not having been to South Korea but from googling the labels of a couple and not seeing anything I'm pretty sure they're made up. There's like 48 of them.
I have no idea, I just came across that while drinking my morning coffee lol :(
It is. Someone said here yesterday they usually don't engage with game threads they are not interested in or don't like, and I'm the same, usually when I don't particularly care about a game, even if I'm playing it (case in point, Ronin), I just don't feel like participating in discussion, as I don't feel like I'll bring anything to the table since I'm not really enjoying it.
With SB, I also don't feel like participating, but because I just kinda don't want to talk about it, even if I do end up liking it. I can't be hyped for that badass scene that just happened because in the next one, the camera went up EVE's ass or something. Again, I always bring it up, but it's basically Xeno 2 all over again for me personally, and I'm not shy about loving that game, but the things it does and has (we know the things) are so off putting, I'm certainly not going to defend any of it (since it's indefensible lol), and it just makes talking about the game itself just a huge bummer.
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I've never hidden away from the fact that I play/watch pornographic content, and could easily discuss the best of it without any shame if wasn't for the fact that:
A.) It's banned here.
B.) Any thread attempting sensible discussion would just be lost to the chuds in record time. You only have to glance at a thread on F95Zone to know how that could degenerate into a festering pit of humanity's worst tendencies.
It's been interesting to watch how the narrative around 2B has shifted, due to Eve somehow being even worse. Design wise, she suffers from the exact same issue that Eve is being criticized for, which is that she's a sex-doll with no awareness toward her own appearance, just a robot ninja with a perfect body in high heels and a leotard.
That people have softened on her speaks to the quality of her game's story writing. Her relationship with 9S, her place in the story, all of the wonderful robot characters, and her development and discovery, all make Nier Automata one of the more memorable games in recent memory for me, but this is in spite of her design, not because of it.
In the build up to SB's release, people would use 2B as a bar for Eve's personality, but pre-release with N:A we had no idea that 2B would turn out the way she did - all we saw was the blindfolded sex-doll. It seems some people forgot that point. I was ready to begrudgingly accept that SB could be a good game (and maybe come to like Eve) if it showed the same kind of ingenuity and charm as N:A, but seems like nah. At best it's a decent action game, and that's not enough to offset the cringey pandering I'd subject myself to with it.
That people have softened on her speaks to the quality of her game's story writing. Her relationship with 9S, her place in the story, all of the wonderful robot characters, and her development and discovery, all make Nier Automata one of the more memorable games in recent memory for me, but this is in spite of her design, not because of it.
In the build up to SB's release, people would use 2B as a bar for Eve's personality, but pre-release with N:A we had no idea that 2B would turn out the way she did - all we saw was the blindfolded sex-doll. It seems some people forgot that point. I was ready to begrudgingly accept that SB could be a good game (and maybe come to like Eve) if it showed the same kind of ingenuity and charm as N:A, but seems like nah. At best it's a decent action game, and that's not enough to offset the cringey pandering I'd subject myself to with it.
I still think 2B sucks and 9S and A2 are actual characters in comparison
My one credit to NA is that you also have dudes in dumb outfits unlike SB where the self insert dudes are in 17 layers of clothing
It's been a while since I played Nier Automata - does it ever do the same cringey camera-angle stuff as seen in the SB gif? Or is the horniness really restricted to 2B's outfit?
If I remember correctly there was an achievement for upskirting her
It does not. Like obviously you do get flashed during gameplay while running and jumping around, and there is a portion towards the end of routes A/B where the front part of her skirt gets shredded off, but the camera never goes out of its way to linger and ogle during cinematics. The very first scene introducing 2B where it pans up her body is basically the worst it gets, and it's extremely tame compared to Eve's intro lmao.
Kyuuji Rhaknar Did some searching, and like you surmised, Kyuuji, seems like they're fictional. With some inspiration and references, like the "Dionysos" is obviously a stand in for the real South Korean drink brand, Bacchus.
Was mostly curious if the hollow characteristisation extended to ignominously making her stop in her tracks to hawk energy drinks.
Was mostly curious if the hollow characteristisation extended to ignominously making her stop in her tracks to hawk energy drinks.
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I do recall this but isn't it called "What Are You Doing?" I don't know if that makes it better but using the trophy system to bust people is at least creative.
It does mean you need to upskirt her to Platinum the game, though.
This is pretty much how I remembered it, yeah.
Yup, the trophy / achievement is called like that:
What Are You Doing?
2B's secret discovered 10 times.
Afterwards, after the 10th time, 2B knocks you out (fourth wall) and you get a Game Over.
You can also buy trophies later so you can get it without doing this.
But still, yeah....
you don't need to cause you can buy the achievements with ingame money, lol
obviously it's easier to just do the camera thing for 5 sec and get it for free, but the option is there
I believe it was an achievement for attempting to upskirt her. The game would tease you by having her kick the camera if you got too close to seeing the cheeks, and if you tried it like 10 times you got the achievement. It's base humor but at least it was self aware. I know, it's a low bar
But other than that the camera work never really encouraged you to ogle. It was a pretty standard game camera.
There's literally a button combo you can press to blow her dress off. It's so dumb.
You could definitely explode the skirt off. This was like the biggest discussion point pre-release when it got revealed. That and the photoshop someone made of her anus.
You know, 2 games with problematic views and being very thin with their content.
I'm so tired.
Just so I'm clear, since I had no interest in that game...
Weren't those twins faceless robotic victims of human SA and other abuse until the game made them murderous and they still have weird sexualization in their boss fight as faceless sex bots?
Really great way to "welcome" a new female character and "celebrate" their own.
They are so desperate for anyone to talk about their shitty game lol
Judas will make everyone forget Atomic Heart, sorry guys 🤷♀️
Pretty sure everyone forgot about Atomic Heart awhile back lol.