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Oct 30, 2017
1,249
User Banned (1 Month): Inappropriate drive-by in a sensitive thread, trying to start a derail
Chris Rock is an absolute arsehole at times but Will and Jada give me the heebie jeebies. Think it was that televised sitdown Will and Jada had.

Her justifications for fucking her sons friend were awful and Will just accepted it.

I mean he has every right to, but he came across as a beat dog.

So yeah, I'm not team Chris Rock but Im sure as shit not gona' defend the Smiths.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,461
Chris Rock is an absolute arsehole at times but Will and Jada give me the heebie jeebies. Think it was that televised sitdown Will and Jada had.

Her justifications for fucking her sons friend were awful and Will just accepted it.

I mean he has every right to, but he came across as a beat dog.

So yeah, I'm not team Chris Rock but Im sure as shit not gona' defend the Smiths.
What do Will and Jada's marriage have to do with Chris Rock insulting her based on her appearance?
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
I haven't pretended shit. Stop saying I've said stuff I haven't. When did I say violence is never the answer? I said violence can be an answer to threats.
This is just a topic you're not going to be able to move some people on. To justify this, people are having to jump through so many hoops. Suddenly we can't expect grown people to have higher standards for resolving conflict than children, the meaning of violence from a general and legal standpoint dont exist, the teaching of proper escalation of violence and use of force doesn't exist, expecting men in general to be more disciplined when it comes to matters of protection and aggression because most experienced folks know how quickly things can go left. If you read this thread you'd expect people here are jumping out the window at any slight perceived towards them (spoiler: they aren't).

Because this conflict is centered around a black woman, people are going to dig in their heels and downplay the aspects that don't they like (the actual assault) and turn the aspects they want to use to justify violence up to 10 (a joke that didnt go over turns into generational trauma). So even though I'm black and have been around the block, because I don't agree with this I can have someone saying wild shit like this to me:

Only if you're someone that lacks the most rudimentary understanding of how minorities are represented can influence perception of them, and result in violence upon them.

So the perception of black men being overly aggressive doesn't matter? The image of an idol in the community showing kids this is how you settle conflicts is okay? Even Will understands he fucked up. This isnt even getting into black men and our ability (or inability) to be able to properly heal in personal and public life when a fuck up sets us off course.

And I'll say it again, when we have mass shooters and other deranged lunatics using similar perceived slights like the great replacement theory (immigration is "violence") to commit violence we know thats fucked up and call it out, but when our side does it, the standards suddenly fade away and everything is permitted.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,461
This is just a topic you're not going to be able to move some people on. To justify this, people are having to jump through so many hoops. Suddenly we can't expect grown people to have higher standards for resolving conflict than children, the meaning of violence from a general and legal standpoint dont exist, the teaching of proper escalation of violence and use of force doesn't exist, expecting men in general to be more disciplined when it comes to matters of protection and aggression because most experienced folks know how quickly things can go left. If you read this thread you'd expect people here are jumping out the window at any slight perceived towards them (spoiler: they aren't).

Because this conflict is centered around a black woman, people are going to dig in their heels and downplay the aspects that don't they like (the actual assault) and turn the aspects they want to use to justify violence up to 10 (a joke that didnt go over turns into generational trauma). So even though I'm black and have been around the block, because I don't agree with this I can have someone saying wild shit like this to me:



So the perception of black men being overly aggressive doesn't matter? The image of an idol in the community showing kids this is how you settle conflicts is okay? Even Will understands he fucked up. This isnt even getting into black men and our ability (or inability) to be able to properly heal in personal and public life when a fuck up sets us off course.

And I'll say it again, when we have mass shooters and other deranged lunatics using similar perceived slights like the great replacement theory (immigration is "violence") to commit violence we know thats fucked up and call it out, but when our side does it, the standards suddenly fade away and everything is permitted.
Wait did I misunderstand you or are you actually trying to compare the understanding of what Will did to the reasoning that lunatics use to justify their mass shootings?


The fuck?
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
Wait did I misunderstand you or are you actually trying to compare the understanding of what Will did to the reasoning that lunatics use to justify their mass shootings?


The fuck?

The issue is that once you start stepping away from clear and objective examples of violence, you end up in a place where anyone can justify violence over anything as long as they feel like they were slighted. It sounds insane because you empathize more with Will's situation than some dude thinking whites are about to genocided and he needs to make an example but the actual justification to violence is nonexistent in both cases.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,372
Her justifications for fucking her sons friend were awful and Will just accepted it.

I mean he has every right to, but he came across as a beat dog.

What the fuck is this post? And why do you think it's relevant? Who asked you your opinion about their sex life and their open marriage, and what does it have to do with this situation?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,461
The issue is that once you start stepping away from clear and objective examples of violence, you end up in a place where anyone can justify violence over anything as long as they feel like they were slighted. It sounds insane because you empathize more with Will's situation than some dude thinking whites are about to genocided and he needs to make an example but the actual justification to violence is nonexistent in both cases.
Yeah I'm just going to disagree with you and leave it at that. Because that is honestly crazy to me to make that comparison and I don't know where to start explaining why.
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
Yeah I'm just going to disagree with you and leave it at that. Because that is honestly crazy to me to make that comparison and I don't know where to start explaining why.

I genuinely want to hear your thoughts even if you want to do over PM because I feel like the inability to see it is proving my point:

Violence is good when its people we like doing it, but bad when its people we don't like doing it.
If you aren't using a clear standard on how to gauge when escalation is needed or that using loose standards on violence is dangerous, a lot of narratives in this thread fall apart.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,421
This thread turned out the same way you'd expect it to.

People really want to make this a good guy vs bad guy narrative where the only people that matter are cishet men. Reality is the victim that deserves to be paid attention to is Jada.

I've been thinking about it so I'll lay down my take:
  • Chris Rock has a history of punching down towards black women. This is inappropriate in general, but I think it's especially inappropriate when you're hired to do a bit for an allegedly professional and prestige organization.
  • The Oscars hiring Chris Rock, knowing he has a history of punching down towards black women, was inappropriate. Especially bad to not go over "punching down tonight would be incredibly inappropriate and an incredibly bad look for us."
  • You can think that Will slapping Chris was wrong without judging his character or believing he is morally corrupt. I especially think that white people need to leave judgement out of this. To my knowledge Chris did not end up in the hospital, and is not pressing charges, so leave that between the two of them. You know neither of them personally, neither are your friend, and neither are going to hurt you.
  • This isn't a reason to boycott Will's movies and he shouldn't be removed from any projects. If it wasn't for the media shoving this in our faces everyone would forget about it. He's not a serial abuser and I doubt he'll ever do this again.
  • At the same time, it's reasonable for the Oscars to not have Will back for x number of years. If I'm at an event, and the hired comedian is being a misogynistic asshole, and I hit that misogynistic asshole, I'm not going to be invited back to that event. Even if it was the right thing to do.
  • The Oscars should've lost their prestige the moment they gave a standing ovation to Roman Polanski. We should all be boycotting the Oscars and as far as I'm concerned Will not attending the Oscars is the right thing for Will to do. Fuck the Oscars.
  • Chris punching down towards a black woman became a 900 post thread about exclusively two cishet men. The human being that matters here is Jada. And all black women, really.
The real bad guy is racism, sexism, and the Oscars. It was entirely greenlit by committee to punch down at black women. If it wasn't for Will, society at large and especially Era would've just let it all slide because it turns out (collectively) we seem to be okay with bashing black women in general until it's turned into a story about cishet men.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,726
And I'll say it again, when we have mass shooters and other deranged lunatics using similar perceived slights like the great replacement theory (immigration is "violence") to commit violence we know thats fucked up and call it out, but when our side does it, the standards suddenly fade away and everything is permitted.
I think there is an appreciable difference between mass shootings and what is being talked about here, and also a difference between real slights and made up ones

Violence is good when its people we like doing it, but bad when its people we don't like doing it.

I don't know if that's the case, maybe it's moreso people we like are probably usually going to have a better justification for violence because they have similar values in which case yeah they are going to have people be more charitable towards them
 
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Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
Good thing we don't have to compare Will Smith to a murderer to show what he did was bad and unjustified. Will Smith said so himself. The premise of this thread was that he is "remorseful". The question is, does he actually believe that his actions were worthy of remorse? Because that would run counter to what most of the defenders in this thread are saying. The other option is that he is being performative now after the fact because of the consequences he suffered or because someone else convinced him to do it. Either way it isn't what the defenders in this thread would say.
 

Killer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
The thing about the situation is that the elephant in the room is the racial double standard. While what Smith did is wrong there's a laundry list of prominent celebrities who have done the same, or worse, who don't get ostracized or just fall back into grace. Even the Tom Cruise example brought up earlier in the thread doesn't feel the same. He still was in 2-3 big budget movies basically every year after his Oprah moment.
So it feels off to a lot of members that Hollywood, and the public at large, are willing to gloss over stuff like Sean Penn beating Madonna, Fassbenders alleged domestic violence incidents, the laundry list of sexual abusers who get written off as "just a mistake" or "he's changed." For me it's a bit tiring to see Will Smith shot on so much for one mistake after 40 years in the public eye while someone like Ezra Miller was seen on camera choking a woman and a large chunk of Era played it off as "oh they're just goofing around" and now that it's become apparently they're a serial abuser at best it's "oh they need help." So the infantantalizing of white celebrities who fuck up compared to black celebrities is obnoxious and reads like the most annoying kind of respectability politics mixed with white navel gazing about the black community.

I absolutely agree that other celebs deserve it more than him. I think if social media was a thing back then it would have been different for these actors. Ezra situation is pathetic all around and they are a criminal full stop.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,987
The thing about the situation is that the elephant in the room is the racial double standard. While what Smith did is wrong there's a laundry list of prominent celebrities who have done the same, or worse, who don't get ostracized or just fall back into grace. Even the Tom Cruise example brought up earlier in the thread doesn't feel the same. He still was in 2-3 big budget movies basically every year after his Oprah moment.
So it feels off to a lot of members that Hollywood, and the public at large, are willing to gloss over stuff like Sean Penn beating Madonna, Fassbenders alleged domestic violence incidents, the laundry list of sexual abusers who get written off as "just a mistake" or "he's changed." For me it's a bit tiring to see Will Smith shot on so much for one mistake after 40 years in the public eye while someone like Ezra Miller was seen on camera choking a woman and a large chunk of Era played it off as "oh they're just goofing around" and now that it's become apparently they're a serial abuser at best it's "oh they need help." So the infantantalizing of white celebrities who fuck up compared to black celebrities is obnoxious and reads like the most annoying kind of respectability politics mixed with white navel gazing about the black community.

Also, Antony Starr(Homelander) physically assaulted a guy in a bar earlier this year, and is apparently an asshole, but that hasn't stop people from praising the guy and wanting to see him get more work.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,510
The thing about the situation is that the elephant in the room is the racial double standard. While what Smith did is wrong there's a laundry list of prominent celebrities who have done the same, or worse, who don't get ostracized or just fall back into grace. Even the Tom Cruise example brought up earlier in the thread doesn't feel the same. He still was in 2-3 big budget movies basically every year after his Oprah moment.
So it feels off to a lot of members that Hollywood, and the public at large, are willing to gloss over stuff like Sean Penn beating Madonna, Fassbenders alleged domestic violence incidents, the laundry list of sexual abusers who get written off as "just a mistake" or "he's changed." For me it's a bit tiring to see Will Smith shot on so much for one mistake after 40 years in the public eye while someone like Ezra Miller was seen on camera choking a woman and a large chunk of Era played it off as "oh they're just goofing around" and now that it's become apparently they're a serial abuser at best it's "oh they need help." So the infantantalizing of white celebrities who fuck up compared to black celebrities is obnoxious and reads like the most annoying kind of respectability politics mixed with white navel gazing about the black community.

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

Good thing we don't have to compare Will Smith to a murderer to show what he did was bad and unjustified. Will Smith said so himself. The premise of this thread was that he is "remorseful". The question is, does he actually believe that his actions were worthy of remorse? Because that would run counter to what most of the defenders in this thread are saying. The other option is that he is being performative now after the fact because of the consequences he suffered or because someone else convinced him to do it. Either way it isn't what the defenders in this thread would say.

defenders

This take is completely disingenuous.

Will Smith can be remorseful because he realizes he made bad choices and those choices had cascading negative impacts on others.

And at the same time, it can be true that much of the commentary around the incident is a gigantic, racially charged overreaction to what transpired.

This idea that Smith believing he was wrong is somehow antithetical to the social backlash being disproportionate is nonsensical and a complete misreading of the people you label as "defenders" of Will Smith.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾



defenders

This take is completely disingenuous.

Will Smith can be remorseful because he realizes he made bad choices and those choices had cascading negative impacts on others.

And at the same time, it can be true that much of the commentary around the incident is a gigantic, racially charged overreaction to what transpired.

This idea that Smith believing he was wrong is somehow antithetical to the social backlash being disproportionate is nonsensical and a complete misreading of the people you label as "defenders" of Will Smith.
Well while this isn't really the focus of what I said I don't use "defenders" as a pejorative. (Notice I intentionally didn't use the old ERA mainstay "defense force" which has negative connotations). So I don't see what's wrong with the word "defender" here when it isn't really the point of what I was saying or a mischaracterization of those who are still justifying his slap after he admitted it was regrettable.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,510
Well while this isn't really the focus of what I said I don't use "defenders" as a pejorative. (Notice I intentionally didn't use the old ERA mainstay "defense force" which has negative connotations). So I don't see what's wrong with the word "defender" here when it isn't really the point of what I was saying or a mischaracterization of those who are still justifying his slap after he admitted it was regrettable.

Because you're extracting all nuance out of the conversation when you pretend that it's all about being pro/anti slapping people.

The word "defender" is being used in the same matter "defence force" is often used - to falsely align nuanced responses with binary positions.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
Because you're extracting all nuance out of the conversation when you pretend that it's all about being pro/anti slapping people.

The word "defender" is being used in the same matter "defence force" is often used - to falsely align nuanced responses with binary positions.
Afaik im the only one using that word and I'm telling you what I meant right now. Not trying to make a binary just trying to refer to what I perceive as a group in the thread. And if you're worried about me missing the nuance you can go back a page and find me talking about the nuance without reducing it to pro/anti slapper.
 

Gr8one

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,513
Also, Antony Starr(Homelander) physically assaulted a guy in a bar earlier this year, and is apparently an asshole, but that hasn't stop people from praising the guy and wanting to see him get more work.
He didn't do it during the oscars. I think that was a bigger deal in the industry at least for work. I don't read into the gossip but what I have been trying to say very poorly in the thread is that he got caught on camera during a live broadcast slapping a presenter of the show. It wasn't a horrible slap but it's probably not an image a Disney or Fox executive wants to see out of the biggest star in Hollywood.

I remember the threads here or on reddit all about Jada and Will and the Smith's private life. I think the slap plus their private life tabloid BS has made Hollywood movers and shakers blacklist the family which is bs.

I feel like the whole issue with the Smiths is a white America thing because we all forgot about this shit here, this latest apology was surprising because I thought this was over.

I still believe he is one of biggest stars outside of America. Myself and everyone I know in my friends circle still loves Will Smith and we already forgave him months ago. I think everyone but trolls understands why he did it, it's just he shouldn't have done it where he did it.
 

threi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,023
Ontario, Canada
This thread turned out the same way you'd expect it to.

People really want to make this a good guy vs bad guy narrative where the only people that matter are cishet men. Reality is the victim that deserves to be paid attention to is Jada.

I've been thinking about it so I'll lay down my take:
  • Chris Rock has a history of punching down towards black women. This is inappropriate in general, but I think it's especially inappropriate when you're hired to do a bit for an allegedly professional and prestige organization.
  • The Oscars hiring Chris Rock, knowing he has a history of punching down towards black women, was inappropriate. Especially bad to not go over "punching down tonight would be incredibly inappropriate and an incredibly bad look for us."
  • You can think that Will slapping Chris was wrong without judging his character or believing he is morally corrupt. I especially think that white people need to leave judgement out of this. To my knowledge Chris did not end up in the hospital, and is not pressing charges, so leave that between the two of them. You know neither of them personally, neither are your friend, and neither are going to hurt you.
  • This isn't a reason to boycott Will's movies and he shouldn't be removed from any projects. If it wasn't for the media shoving this in our faces everyone would forget about it. He's not a serial abuser and I doubt he'll ever do this again.
  • At the same time, it's reasonable for the Oscars to not have Will back for x number of years. If I'm at an event, and the hired comedian is being a misogynistic asshole, and I hit that misogynistic asshole, I'm not going to be invited back to that event. Even if it was the right thing to do.
  • The Oscars should've lost their prestige the moment they gave a standing ovation to Roman Polanski. We should all be boycotting the Oscars and as far as I'm concerned Will not attending the Oscars is the right thing for Will to do. Fuck the Oscars.
  • Chris punching down towards a black woman became a 900 post thread about exclusively two cishet men. The human being that matters here is Jada. And all black women, really.
The real bad guy is racism, sexism, and the Oscars. It was entirely greenlit by committee to punch down at black women. If it wasn't for Will, society at large and especially Era would've just let it all slide because it turns out (collectively) we seem to be okay with bashing black women in general until it's turned into a story about cishet men.
I refuse to engage in this thread anymore as explaining things to those who don't want to listen, nor understand, but to talk is not worth my time or effort, but I want to you know that this post has not been ignored by at least one user.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
I just wanted to show a bit of appreciation to Royalan for having a Saint-like patience confronting some of the people ignoring the context of the matter in this thread. I wish I had half your patience and cool with some of these people and I appreciate you.

It's impressive how quiet or evasive certain people become when you confront them with exactly the thing that would stop people from giving their arguments any reasonable doubt.

I don't condone violence at all. But this thread is mostly about something other than violence, but those keep insisting that we're justifying it, condoning it or excusing it are either malicious or just not paying any attention at all to the context at all and I've seen some users repeatedly ignoring it, even when quoted or responded to by multiple individuals.

While I do think that Chris Rock should have absolutely apologized to Jada, I wouldn't want for him to feel, or be, pressured into doing so. It wouldn't be an honest excuse, in my opinion, if he only made it due to peer pressure and I think his silence on everything but the slap speaks leagues about him.
 

Good4Squat

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,154
Some people absolutely are condoning and justifying it. You may not be one of them. But to say no one here has done that is just plain false.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Some people absolutely are condoning and justifying it. You may not be one of them. But to say no one here has done that is just plain false.

That's not what I said. Some people have been trying to draw attention on Jada and how she's not being represented in this discussion, how she was subject to a terrible joke about an illness outside of her control and most people think that doesn't warrant any sort of apology or sympathy.

I even saw a post on this thread suggest something along the lines of "she waived her rights to an apology when Chris got slapped".

That's simply not how things work.

Some of the people more apologetic towards Chris Rock have been repeatedly given context and asked about where they stood when it comes to Jada's treatment in the midst of all this and those questions were left largely unanswered as they jumped to quoting another person instead of answering questions that they find uncomfortable.

This is why I said that this thread has become mostly about something other than the violence. People have been trying to provide context so that those unaware understand that this feud, spat, or whatever you want to call it, between Chris Rock and Jada didn't materialize out of the blue but is part of a decades-long well-documented pattern and because of that some people are less than sympathetic towards him. I understand that because I know the context.

In my mind, there's a difference between "I condone violence" and "I understand why the violence happened." Maybe that's just my perspective or the way I've been reading the thread, but that's the feeling I got from reading most of it. That isn't to say that some people have been condoning it, but I think those people are fewer than the ones berating those who try to provide the context as to why this happened.

The person who was victim of the hurtful joke that sparked the violence is the only one who hasn't received an apology or even as much as a few ounces of sympathy even though most people are in agreement that it was, at the very least, a "joke" that was made in very poor taste by a person who, we know for a fact, knew better than to mock a woman's hair because of what it signifies to them because he starred in a documentary precisely about hair.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,456
Can't believe people managed to catch a perm over this topic

... Actually I lied I can see it
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,564
Still stunned that we had someone try and refer to the fact that transphobia bolsters an unsafe environment for trans people as an opinion, and say that it's the same as the perceived slights a mass shooter has when murdering people.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,313
Gentrified Brooklyn
Whew, stayed out of this thread and just watched it grow like a weed.

While it was an incident for the history books going to say that the discussion has very little to do with the slap and circumstances but the idea of decorum and peace above all and who lived in a world where it served them well (well, up until 2016). I get the shock of a slap on live tv, but we live in a world where parliamentary fist fights break out.

www.bbc.com

Parliament brawls around the world

As Julius Malema's EFF group disrupt the opening of South Africa's parliament, we look at parliamentary brawls around the world - from throwing eggs to throwing fists.