Wolfenstein 2 is surprisingly bad shooter...

[resident_UA]

Also, I think the title of the thread could stand to be a little less inflammatory. Framing it that way will make people either more inclined to post harsh negativity or aggressively defensive opinions.

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I think it's telling that people mostly agree. I did think about the title for a second. But this actually exactly how I feel... I gave it benefit of a doubt. And I realize that shooting could be subjective (I can see it being better on PC). But there's nothing that can excuse REALLY bad level design.

 

[Psychotron]

Biggest disappointment of 2017 for me. Broke my heart when hours in I realized I wasn't having much fun at all. Meanwhile, I had a smile from ear to ear playing TNO. Some of the changes they made this time had me seriously scratching my head.

 

[Silky]

I haven't played it yet but I'm a little surprised by the reactions in this thread. Seems like the game got mad praise in reviews. Was it all because of the story? I mean TNO was surprisingly strong in that department as well but it wasn't revolutionary or anything.

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Easier difficulties make the game way more enjoyable and yes, the story and cast, characterization and pacing shits on other games from high levels

 

[TheMirai]

I actually totally agree. It's still a pretty fun game but the incentive to crank up the difficulty just isn't there. The game has a few good methods of playing and none of them feel especially great.

BJ is too frail. I get that it's the point but even the armor you acquire chips away extremely fast, and it's hard to tell where you're being shot from at any given scenario, so your health gets chewed away. The stealth works with little slowdown bits in case you almost get caught, but I didn't find enough cubbies to slip into and lategame there's a LOT of explosive barrels lining the rooms, which instakill you via knockdown and the fact that you're still being shot at. Also, most of the lategame enemies fire too fast for heavy weapons to even be bothered with, compounding the frailty problem of BJ. The laserkraftwerk heavy beam was fantastic but half the time it was a DPS race to make sure I mowed down the other heavy soldiers with their beams before they killed me.

Plus, when you get to lategame and get a new mobility upgrade, the Laserkraftwerk feels even more pointless than it already did. I think I fired it like ten times at non-kraftwerk enemies, and once was in a mandatory mission in the u-boat.

The stealth in this one felt good since I could put silencers on everything, but it led to the Oblivion problem of "you have to kill everyone before they see you or else the captain psychically knows he spotted someone," which wasn't as much a problem in the first game I don't think? If I'm meant to be caught at some point I should be tougher, even on medium difficulties, and this game seems to punish non-stealth accidentally. And I played on a decent difficulty, too!

I could go on. It's a very messy game all around. I hope that by the third game, they get a grasp on it.

 

[Tickling]

Was tempted for it in the Xbox sale this has put me off till it's a £10 now.

 

[cosmickosm]

I beat the game earlier in the week and I really just didn't like it at all. I mean, storyline wise and the cutscenes were great, but the gameplay was boring. The difficulty was all over the place and I couldn't tell where the hell I was even being shot from. It got to the point where I just turn the difficulty all the way done and made a bee line for completion. Really bad followup to TNO which was very fun and not at all frustrating for the most part. TNC overdid it with the commanders too, I started rolling my eyes whenever those signals would pop up since it was so frequent.

I had actually pre-ordered the game along with the season pass expecting a great followup but damn, talk about a regretful purchase.

 

[digitalrelic]

I completely agree. I enjoyed the game but it was worse than the first one IMO.

The level design is labyrinthian, unintuitive, and kind of directionless. The notification for when you're taking damage and from where is borderline nonexistent. I often found myself shocked that I was down to 8 HP after a battle. Requiring a button press for health pickups is just as stupid as it's always been.

I'm glad the writing, acting, and storyline are all so good, because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to finish this game. It hurts to say that because I loved the original and I loved DOOM, but this was a let down in the gameplay/fun department.

Who would've ever thought a Wolfenstein game would have mediocre gameplay and an amazing story? 2017 is weird.

 

[Charpunk]

I loved new order but simply hated the gameplay in this. The shooting felt terrible and was just not fun. I finally just said whatever and put it on the easiest difficulty just to blow through it to see the story.

 

[Yerffej]

What? It's a fantastic shooter. I can't even begin to understand how you can say it's gameplay is the weakest aspect of the package.

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I think OP's is a common sentiment with this series. The gameplay certainly wasn't what I enjoyed most in the first. It's of a bygone era in the way it plays for the most part.

 

[Silky]

Hopefully all these issues will be ironed out in time for the Switch Definitive 600p version!

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What was the point of this post

what was the reason for it

 

[spam musubi]

I think it's telling that people mostly agree. I did think about the title for a second. But this actually exactly how I feel... I gave it benefit of a doubt. And I realize that shooting could be subjective (I can see it being better on PC). But there's nothing that can excuse REALLY bad level design.

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I think "bad" is just not a descriptive enough word, and the "surprisingly" just makes it inflammatory. I would have gone for something like "wolf 2's level design and shooting are disappointing" or something. Sounds more like an invitation to conversation instead of wanting to shit on a game.

 

[Effect]

Level design. So the levels aren't simply long corridor where you go form A to B? Actually branches out in different directions like a real location would be setup? Basically Call of Duty vs Goldeneye 007 (or shooters from back in that era) in terms of level design? That's not a bad thing to me.

 

[Cugel]

I wouldn't go as far, but I definitely tought it was a lesser game than the first and its DLC standalone.

 

[Open Wound]

The level design in Wolfenstein 2 I found it to be surprisingly on point for combat scenarios, relatively confusing for navigation purposes (like this thread shows, although I find having such problems to find an exit to be quite extreme, the levels are reasonably small), and frustrating from a stealth viewpoint.

In firefights the environments just work beautifully in giving multiple routes so you can't be stationary (enemies will come from all over the place otherwise), and gives you an out from being just out in the open. So you just end up moving really fast between those different routes that also take into account verticality and ends up being an absolutely amazing firefight every time. But those advantages for combat scenarios are exactly why I'm not conviced by the stealth treatment done in them. You never have a clear view of the place you're on, so the risks you're forced to take are much greater than any stealth game I've played or the previous Wolfenstein, so sometimes my success or failure feels arbitrary. That's also why navigation is a bit confusing.

All in all, a remarkable, but deeply flawed, effort in terms of level design, in my opinion.

 

[Raptomex]

It's definitely more challenging than the previous game but I thought the gameplay was fun. The actual act of firing the weapons is fun as is shredding enemies to pieces with your bullets. However, the damage indicator needs some serious work. That's my biggest issue. I normally have no idea if I'm taking damage until I'm about to die. The encounters are underwhelming. I never experienced any type of "wow" factor like I did with TNO and TOB. However, you are provided more freedom with most encounters here.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

I felt the same about the first game too *shrug*

 

[resident_UA]

Spoilers regarding that mission below.

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This is the mission where I dropped the difficulty to the lowest. And it felt REALLY good! That's how that level should feel especially considering where the story goes. I can't believe I almost forced myself to get through it on normal difficulty.

 

[OnionPowder]

I feel like it's a great shooter so far. I'm playing on hard on PC and blowing through it pretty well. Game punishes you for mistakes pretty hard, but on some of the harder areas I can usually get through within 1-3 times.

 

[R.T Straker]

Yes it is pretty bad and a much inferior game to the glorious Wolf TNO.

 

[Poutine Runner 2049]

I thought it was a fantastic little shooter.

Gunplay is beyond satisfying. You can check the waypoint marker at any time so I don't see how you kept getting lost.

I beat the game on do or die and didnt have many complaints about the difficulty either.

Cant say I share your complaints and I definitely wouldnt call W2 a bad game.

 

[Silky]

Level design. So the levels aren't simply a long corridor? But actually branches out in different directions like a real location would be? Basically Call of Duty vs Goldeney 007 in terms of level design? That's not a bad thing to me.

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There hasn't been a shooter that follows the corrodor/linear template in a few years man

The hub world is sprawling with multiple layers/rooms to explore

It's not GoldenEye/Turok though, think of it more like idk Half-Life stages or something

 

[Kill3r7]

Not sure I agree. I finally got around to it last. The story is excellent so far and the gameplay seems fun. At first I thought something felt off about the gunplay but then I remembered that Destiny 2 has ridiculous recoil on hand cannons.

 

[Uno Venova]

It's just really odd that the marketing promotes, and the gunplay lends itself better to a bombastic, shootout, guns blazing type of affair. But they give you the health of Adam Jensen in Human Revolution.

 

[Novocaine]

I'm 100% with you OP.

I just finished the game today and I'm glad I did. The story is amazing, the presentation is fantastic but playing it felt awful. Shooting felt bad and you get creamed so quickly. I blasted through the game on easy in the end because I wanted to see it through.

I feel like the game might be better played with M/KB.

 

[PanzerKraken]

Level design. So the levels aren't simply a long corridor? But actually branches out in different directions like a real location would be? Basically Call of Duty vs Goldeney 007 in terms of level design? That's not a bad thing to me.

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The levels are open, its not scripted and linear like a COD game. The issue is the combat design is largely designed around commanders. Commanders are typically in the far back of a group of enemies and if you start some shit, they set off the alarm and you get horded with ever growing hordes of enemies that feel near endless. You are almost forced to rush through the encounter area to the back where the commanders are to stop the enemies from spawning or summoning in big shit to stomp you. So it often feels like you are being pushed forward in the battles instead of getting to explore or use the terrain provided.

Its funny cause when you return to areas doing the side missions, you will see a lot more of levels you didn't in previous play cause you just ran straight through it the first time.

 

[Divvy]

I didn't play it as cover shooter at all! A great example of why gameplay actually makes this game worse is the "judge" scene (trying not to spoil). That moment should feel badass! but unless you are really good you will die in that level. That's bad game design.

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I disagree with this.

The judge scene

Spoiler: spoilers

works much better as a struggle. It's meant to be you clawing and struggling your way to escape only to have it snatched from you by having it be a dream.

 

[Musician]

I'm wondering how many people complaining about the shooting are playing on a controller. I finished it on PC and it felt pretty good all the way through to me, but I can imagine if you can't make fast adjustments on the fly whilst running things might feel shitty. I only felt frustrated in the last phase of the last battle, mostly due to

Spoiler: end game enemy

how much damage those robots did in a single shot.

I played it mostly stealth whenever there was a commando in the level. Sneaking around with the silenced pistol, which is an instant kill if you shoot someone in the head fyi, usually felt pretty great. If I got detected I pulled out two guns (any two really) and made a beeline for the commando, shooting people on the way. I felt extremely powerful either way; either as a nazi killing shadow or a whirlwind of bullets.

Maybe I should add that I never aimed down sights. I played it a whole lot more like doom than a more tactical shooter when things went down for real.

Edit: This was on the default difficulty.

 

[Duxxy3]

Played on easy with a keyboard and mouse. I didn't have any gameplay complaints.

 

[resident_UA]

I think "bad" is just not a descriptive enough word, and the "surprisingly" just makes it inflammatory. I would have gone for something like "wolf 2's level design and shooting are disappointing" or something. Sounds more like an invitation to conversation instead of wanting to shit on a game.

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Well if it was just a bad game with shitty direction it would not be surprising at all. :) The surprising part is that they got so much right and fumbled on basics.

 

[LebGuns]

I agree with everything you said OP, and would add the shitty ass extremely short time-to-death this game has, even on normal difficulty. There isn't enough armor in the game that would make you die in 3 hits.

 

[Silky]

This is the mission where I dropped the difficulty to the lowest. And it felt REALLY good! That's how that level should feel especially considering where the story goes. I can't believe I almost forced myself to get through it on normal difficulty.

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Do or Die literally wasn't that bad for me until the last level.

Spoilers for the ending stage

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

 

[Courage]

The most disappointing part for me was the amateur implementation of stealth this time around. Enemy routes and expanded vision cones make sneaking around a frustrating task. In New Order, stealth was too easy but I'm afraid they took it to the other extreme.

I do think the gunplay is improved in terms of weapon feedback and audio. You're also more nimble, which allows for some interesting run and gun tactics, especially later in the game with the upgrades you get. Unfortunately the encounters around those mechanics are cheap, spamfests which reminded me of COD campaigns at their worst, where you have enemies shooting from all directions and can't decide how to approach.

I wish they focused on the game design of things as much as they did on their world and writing.

 

[Khronico]

Eh, I disagree. Played on PC and had a blast. Game really rewards movement and aggressive play. Playing it like a cover shooter would be miserable.

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Same, Played on PC and had a ton of fun (Default difficulty). Once you get spotted you should be constantly on the move and ALWAYS dual wield.
I spent most of the game sprinting around the combat areas mowing down nazis, it was extremely satisfying.

 

[Keyframe]

Gameplay was indeed shit. I liked the setpieces and the story. I actually dropped difficulty to easiest after a while because I hated the gunplay that much and wanted the game to be over.

 

[Cranston]

My biggest disappointment of 2017.

It seems to be getting universal praise but I thought it was average at best. Floaty, weak shooting, awful level design, terrible difficulty spikes with cheap damage hikes and the worst opening level in shooter memory.

 

[No Depth]

Also felt similar about the first game despite playing it twice and getting the plat(for reasons beyond the core gameplay). Chief reason I held off on the sequel until a sale price. Was hoping the concerns were addressed in the sequel after 3 years of discussion, but it seems to have gotten worse despite the strong narrative and writing.

 

[ozfunghi]

What was the point of this post
what was the reason for it

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What's the meaning of life?
Because the game will be coming to the Switch at a later time. That means it's a "late" port once more, which isn't always a bad thing per se. WiiU also got a bunch of late ports, but with improvements made.
I doubt they will "fix" the levels though, so in this case it's likely just going to be a downgraded version, graphically. Which i don't mind as long as it looks decent, being a Switch only gamer atm.

 

[Deleted member 13855]

What gameplay differences does easy vs default give for those of us who have not started yet?

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There are insane difficulty spikes and open combat arenas where enemies start spawning behind you. It doesnt feel balanced, fair, or fun.

I started the game on hard and you basically have to hide behind cover and try to pick off enemies as they come to you. Playing stealthy helps a bit but the stealth feels way different in this game and the commanders you need to kill to clear the area are always in a tiny room out of the fucking way.

I hit a point in the story where you have to defend an area for an undetermined amount of time with enemies coming at you from all directions. After dying 20+ times I turned it down to easy.

I played TNO earlier this year and beat it on the hardest difficulty.

Unfortunately I don't think the gameplay in TNC is as good as that game and the story isnt as strong.

 

[FriedConsole]

Good to know as media personalities are only focusing on the story. Bummer as I liked the gameplay of the first one.

 

[Cranston]

I actually dropped difficulty to easiest after a while because I hated the gunplay that much and wanted the game to be over.

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To be honest, did this after about fifteen minutes, when I realised the game was employing cheap, one shot mechanics.

 

[Hopping_Mad]

It felt like they didnt build upon the first game at all. I mean the first one was over the top, but this just went stupid for thr sake of it. No cohesiveness.

 

[Mullet2000]

I kinda feel like I'm from another planet the way that people talk about this game being too hard or the shooting being bad.

I loved every minute of the combat and loved how much the game encouraged agressive play. Granted I played on KB/M so maybe that's the difference.

The game doesn't do a good job of indicating when you're being shot though. That part is bad.

 

[Sleuth Semanticist]

Yeah, I agree. The level design and gameplay only really shine when the rooms are small/narrow but you're given multiple corridors or stories to run and double back through. On top of that, I'm playing on the difficulty just above normal and it's very easy until it's not. I get flanked and 2-shot with overcharged HP with no way to really prevent it.

The "kill the captain or get mobbed" design just further exacerbates all these problems. Levels are too big with too many deadends, hitscan weapons with unpredictable damage levels, weak stealth. It makes me play the game like a snail in stealth to take out the captains and save scum till I do, then I can go guns blazing.

It has some identity problems. The game seems to encourage reckless run-and-gun, but your toughness and enemy damage can literally end you as soon as you pop out. So you play for cover? You don't regen enough HP (and least on Hard), and the levels tend to be big enough for the enemies to flank you.

Doom 2016 at least reliably rewards you with health or ammo for aggressive plays, allows you to dodge most enemies' attacks, and the levels tend to be circuit-like, so you can usually run in loops without hitting a deadend. I beat it on Ultra-Violence without really feeling cheated by the game's design upon death.

 

[Courage]

It's just really odd that the marketing promotes, and the gunplay lends itself better to a bombastic, shootout, guns blazing type of affair. But they give you the health of Adam Jensen in Human Revolution.

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Well you're able to overcharge your health up to 200, and there's a shitload of HP around. Even that can be frustrating sometimes though, since you have to manually look for healthpacks and pick them up yourself, and that obviously breaks up the flow of a combat encounter.

 

[Jeff ChickenDig]

I'm curious if I'd have a better time if I played this on pc. Game does seem to be tuned for precise aiming. These enemy movements are pretty complex and are sponges.

The best weapon I found was the scoped assault rifle lol.


First game wasn't amazing as a shooter either but at least stealth was more viable. Doesn't seem to plausible in this game.

 

[TheChungusAmongUs]

I knew I was right in skipping playing this.

While I enjoyed the narrative from New Order and Old Blood, I absolutely loathed playing these games. They are awful shooters.

-Mediocre level design
-Higher difficulties stop the game from being a run and gun and instead a constant peek a corner palooza (why are there 5 difficulty settings?)
-A pointless stealth system for some reason
-The health system doesn't work with how quickly enemies can kill you on higher difficulties

I saw all of these things from the first 2 games and looking that this one seems to have changed literally nothing I knew I was right passing on it and just watching the story beats on youtube.

 

[TheGhost]

The shooting is not satisfying, you don't even feel like you're landing shots. The only satisfying thing is using shotguns and taking limbs off

 

[GMM]

It's a bad shooter if you play it on anything than the easiest difficulty. I found it to be a super fun experience just mowing down Nazis as an unstoppable force and enjoying the fantastic story.

 

[Caspar]

I haven't played it on a controller on a console so I don't know how much that differs, but on PC with m&k it's about as good an FPS I've played in years.

I'm playing on default difficulty and about 3/4 through the game. I would say the level design is nothing to write home about, but damn this game just feels so good.

Sneaking through a level at the beginning, picking off guys with the pistol and throwing hatchets at Nazi faces, and then once the alarm has sounded rip out the shotgun, hold down sprint, and blast my way to the Nazi officer guys, then spin back round and clear up everyone else left, switching weapon every few seconds, throwing grenades and hatchets like confetti, rushing round corners and stabbing people..

I'm playing it the exact same way as Doom last year, just super fast, never stop moving, heart in the mouth stuff. Then back to stealth and silenced pistol for the start of the next encounter. It's just a blast to play, everything feels silky smooth and razor precise.

I'd say if you're often finding yourself hiding behind cover or trying to hold onto a single position you're probably making it harder for yourself. Just run run run and never give them a clean shot on you. Also by always moving you're constantly picking up health and armor, like it's literally laying around everywhere.

Again, mouse & keyboard may be the crucial ingredient, I haven't tried controller.

 

[resident_UA]

Good to know as media personalities are only focusing on the story. Bummer as I liked the gameplay of the first one.

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To be fair if you lower the difficulty to easiest it makes gameplay tolerable enough to where it's enjoyable in combination with the story. It's becomes a weaker version of Doom without executions and much challenge :)