Skies

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,340
I don't think even MS and Sony believe this marketing buzz. It's very well relevant.

Yeah this always been some shit the Sony and/or Microsoft try to sell fo different reasons, but it's never tracked. They are competitors and absolutely what works for Nintendo would absolutely work for Microsoft.

If Gears, Halo, Fable, etc. were firing at all cylinders right now Microsoft wouldn't be having nearly the amount of issues it is currently having. It's also complete BS because Microsoft could easily make CoD, MineCraft, Diablo, etc. exclusive and get themselves out of the hole they built themselves, but they refuse to do that (less money to make I'm sure). But then they also preach that their hands are tied and exclusives/quality games would not fix their current hardware issues which again is false.

It's all just PR BS. They have a different agenda yet they try to act like they are the little guy trying their hardest because it's the better public position to take. In reality all their decisions behind closed doors are really made from greed without zero care for the consumer, which is not exactly a good PR stance to market. Enter Phil Spencer and company. Complete facade.
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,094
That tells you all you need to know, Xbox finally crossed a line that even the die hards across the internet cant find a spin to put on this.

Which begs the question of, will the consumer ever trust the Xbox brand ever again, trust them in a way that will make them financially viable. I would imagine putting out a console next gen would be very risky for them unless it has some sort of Steam viability attached to it.

Like it'd be one, cruel, thing if Xbox had the juice, but they don't! They *need* creative studios that have shown they can put out good games consistently; why would a consumer stick with Xbox at this point?
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
303
Monopoly is the wrong word, apologies. More the description of clear winner and will always be a winner due to namesake. Sony has the history, the good and the bad but clearly has the market wrapped up when it comes to console gaming. Any kid walking into a store knows what a PlayStation is, hell the grandma's know what it is.

That kind of universal understanding is both rare and potent to competitors.
The problem is, as we've seen in Japan, PS can also lose markets even where they dominate Xbox heads up.

We have to see what the impact of Switch 2 is in every market. If Switch 2 goes super nova like 1 did, that's a huge issue for Sony even in Western markets.

PS software sales have cratered in Japan even with decent console sales because Nintendo's mindshare is so strong that all gamers there are buying is Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, and whatever else is on Switch etc. (as well as the typical Minecraft, Roblox, Fortnite, etc.).

That may not happen elsewhere but it's still a risk to PS; when Nintendo's software engine is firing on all cylinders, the mindshare that it has is unmatchable. If that leads to 3rd party going to Switch 2 to try to get Japanese sales back, it can boomerang everywhere.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,836
I don't know how people continue saying this when Playstation is destroying largely because of this. Exclusives are part of the brand identity. They are important for all systems

Exclusives are overrated, when things are going well everyone points to them as the thing that made the console a success. Yet, the very same Mario Kart 8 that has now sold over 60 million units couldn't save the WiiU. So many brilliant titles on the WiiU have flourished on the Switch. Roblox was a defacto Xbox exclusive during last gen. One of the most popular games in the world and it did jack to move the needle. Also, Sony being willing to sell their first party titles on PC is telling.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,794
Exclusives are overrated, when things are going well everyone points to them as the thing that made the console a success. Yet, the very same Mario Kart 8 that has now sold over 60 million units couldn't save the WiiU. So many brilliant titles on the WiiU have flourished on the Switch. Roblox was a defacto Xbox exclusive during last gen. One of the most popular games in the world and it did jack to move the needle. Also, Sony being willing to sell their first party titles on PC is telling.
Exclusives aren't the ONLY thing that matters, but it's hard to use Nintendo as an example and make the argument that their first party software isn't a major selling point for them. Do you really think Switch would have sold well without Nintendo games?
 

Nixius

Member
Feb 20, 2024
297
The problem is, as we've seen in Japan, PS can also lose markets even where they dominate Xbox heads up.

We have to see what the impact of Switch 2 is in every market. If Switch 2 goes super nova like 1 did, that's a huge issue for Sony even in Western markets.

PS software sales have cratered in Japan even with decent console sales because Nintendo's mindshare is so strong that all gamers there are buying is Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, and whatever else is on Switch etc. (as well as the typical Minecraft, Roblox, Fortnite, etc.).

That may not happen elsewhere but it's still a risk to PS; when Nintendo's software engine is firing on all cylinders, the mindshare that it has is unmatchable. If that leads to 3rd party going to Switch 2 to try to get Japanese sales back, it can boomerang everywhere.
Japan has always been a special market, I don't think the things happening there will reflect on other markets, Plus isn't the general notion PS5 software is struggling because the hardware is being scalped to other markets?
 

Re-Tails

Member
Aug 16, 2020
251
In a creative industry like this, there's no getting around the need to show up with quality content. If you put good exclusive games on the system, people will show up.

Very well said. Xbox never really succeeded with that since the PS4/Xbone era.

Things like GP, backwards compatibility, cross-buy are certainly nice-to-haves. But they've never been the main factors that capture the gaming market.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
303
Exclusives are overrated, when things are going well everyone points to them as the thing that made the console a success. Yet, the very same Mario Kart 8 that has now sold over 60 million units couldn't save the WiiU. So many brilliant titles on the WiiU have flourished on the Switch. Roblox was a defacto Xbox exclusive during last gen. One of the most popular games in the world and it did jack to move the needle. Also, Sony being willing to sell their first party titles on PC is telling.
Great exclusives move the consoles though whether the AAA exclusives on PS or Nintendo's franchises, and the reality is that Switch is more of a handheld successor (where Nintendo's always been the 800lb gorilla because of Pokemon guaranteeing every handheld tens of millions of sales) than anything else.

Switch took off because of BotW turning into a "game of the generation" that was literally selling consoles singlehandedly until Odyssey and the rest arrived.

BotW (Switch version) outsold the Switch in the US in its first month as crazy as that sounds. There was an insane frenzy for BotW that became an insane frenzy for Odyssey that became an insane frenzy for Pokemon, etc.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,836
Exclusives aren't the ONLY thing that matters, but it's hard to use Nintendo as an example and make the argument that their first party software isn't a major selling point for them. Do you really think Switch would have sold well without Nintendo games?

Did you read my other post?

Great exclusives move the consoles though whether the AAA exclusives on PS or Nintendo's franchises, and the reality is that Switch is more of a handheld successor (where Nintendo's always been the 800lb gorilla because of Pokemon) than anything else.

Switch took off because of BotW turning into a "game of the generation" that was literally selling consoles singlehandedly until Odyssey and the rest arrived.

BotW (Switch version) outsold the Switch in the US in its first month as crazy as that sounds. There was an insane frenzy for BotW that became an insane frenzy for Odyssey that became an insane frenzy for Pokemon, etc.

It doesn't sound crazy at all. I have 3 of them in my house. The last 2 open world Zelda games have outsold the last 6 mainline releases. Their success was unprecedented even for them. Think how many of their franchises have set new sales records.
 

Bardoon

Member
May 27, 2018
2,423
England
Arkane hits hard for me because I love their work in Prey and Dishonored, but it's horrible for all the studios and every dev now out of a job. So much talent just discarded.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,397
The problem with the thought of current Xbox leadership stepping down is that the replacements are still going to try to do what they can to please shareholders/corporate MS.

I mean, they should probably still step down, but I'm not sure it would change much.
 

Embiid

Member
Feb 20, 2021
6,108
What Spencer did for the change? I don't buy "Next year" PR anymore.

Xbox One damage could easily be repaired with money if they didn't mishandled their studios they would've had 5-10 killer application for this gen.

They didn't cancel Redfall. They didn't fix Starfield's problems.

State of Decay 3, Perfect Dark, Avowed, Everwild, Halo Infinite, Forza Motorsport all had development issues.

With a proper management, Xbox wouldn't be PS or Nintendo level today but at least they would recapture Xbox 360 magic.

Like I said, Mattrick's mistakes could be repaired but Spencer's mistakes can't be repaired. His Game Pass vision is the biggest failure of gaming industry.
I don't agree at all and think focusing on individual games like you did in this post and in your previous post mentioning Titanfall and Moon Studios is telling me you're completely missing the big picture, that we're fundamentally looking at it from a different scale. I elaborated on that here…

www.resetera.com

Xbox is shutting down Arkane Austin, Tango Gameworks, and Alpha Dog Games. Roundhouse Studios absorbed by ZeniMax Online Studios.

Again, there was no way for Xbox to win this gen after losing the most important gen ever unless either: 1) They attempt a radical, industry shifting strategy/idea and it blows up. It didn’t, not to the extent they needed. 2) Sony having a PS3 level own goal. They didn’t. They smartly...
 

Heid

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,816
Said "what the fuck" out loud.

To be fair, he's sticking up for them almost immediately after Redfall's release and they were getting shit on left right and center.

Things can change in a year in all kinds of ways.
Redfall was crap when it launched and its crap now. Literally nothing changed.

Unless you're suggesting Redfall has improved in the last year? And now it's worth shutting down? Oh no its because Microsoft is need of money now, yes. The trillion dollar company.

Mate just admit its all PR bs. Defending a game, killing a studio... its all to do one thing and that's protecting their dollar.
 

Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,928
It's kinda feeling to me they bought Bethesda for Fallout/ES, and then bought Activision for COD and the rest doesn't really matter. That's like 80 billion dollars for like 3-4 IPs. If someone releases a surprise mega hit, well that's great but if they don't, then they are just dead weight that can be scrapped.

Edit: they probably also wanted Doom and Wolfenstein too, but my point still stands
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
303
Japan has always been a special market, I don't think the things happening there will reflect on other markets, Plus isn't the general notion PS5 software is struggling because the hardware is being scalped to other markets?
Yeah, we're seeing a weaker Yen increase sales of both consoles in Japan (as well as software), it's probable that plenty of that is actually leaving Japan.

Still, I think there has to be a concern that some exclusives won't work for Sony's partners if it means lost Switch sales.

I think Square is the first company that's likely to go back to Nintendo; Final Fantasy has become an afterthought in Japan and basically lost its fanbase there to a large extent. Part of that is creative choices in 16 "FF for westerners", but part of that is the games not being available on Switch.

Square needs to get FF back onto Switch 2 to rebuild that fanbase.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,093
Richmond, VA
They just shaved millions off MS' bottom line. If anything, they've secured their positions for years to come with decisions like that. Expect the closures to continue in the pursuit of profit margins.

Considering that running a giant third party publisher is just as dependent on managing studios and developing games as running a first party publisher, I'm not optimistic about their continued leadership.
 

kxs

Member
Jul 25, 2022
344
If digital libraries were that important, Xbox series consoles wouldn't be selling significantly worse than Xbox One. You'd expect the numbers to be the same at the very least so clearly there are people willing to leave an ecosystem even if they have digital games on there just for Xbox they are leaving it instead of joining there's. The reality is that Xbox has been poorly handled for years now and the responsibility for that falls on Phil. He has done a terrible job managing studios and now they're in this position

I agree.

Even when Microsoft botched the Xbox One launch, the console still had strong sales due to the popularity of the Xbox 360. There wasn't much of a digital library then.

But now we have a decade of poor decisions and mismangement. A platform without an identity.
 

Re-Tails

Member
Aug 16, 2020
251
Personally, all recent gaming hardware purchase I've made has been down to exclusives:
- Wii: Mario Galaxy 2
- Switch: Mario Odyssey
- PC build: Hitman at 4k120
- Switch 2: I know I'll be getting it for Splatoon 4
Never bought an Xbox or a PS since none of their games interested me enough.

I have GP and the importance of exclusives is obvious.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
303
It doesn't sound crazy at all. I have 3 of them in my house. The last 2 open world Zelda games have outsold the last 6 mainline releases. Their success was unprecedented even for them. Think how many of their franchises have set new sales records.
Agreed, I think the thing is that Nintendo found a way to make their handheld line a true console and that transferred the success there, so it's sort of hard to compare to the Wii U or anything before because Switch is also a successor to Gameboy and DS lines.

Pokemon was going to guarantee the Switch 20-30 million sales no matter what (i.e. double the Wii U's lifetime sales) even if BotW and Odyssey weren't good games.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,836
Yeah, and it's confusing how you can say exclusives are a driving force for Nintendo, then say they're overrated and use Nintendo as an example.

They are overrated in the sense that they are not the primary driving force of success. Folks like to hang their hat on exclusives to explain Switch's success ignoring the mobile/handheld aspects of the console. The Switch also streamlined Nintendo's development cycles. Their studios no longer needed to develop for two devices. The motion controls allowed for kids and non gamers to play in a way they were comfortable (maybe intuitive is the better word) with. I can't explain why games that failed to move the needle on the WiiU, absolutely crushed it on the Switch. Also, Nintendo is the last console maker that keeps their first party titles fully console exclusive.
 

SilentEagle

Member
Jan 9, 2021
6,054
I don't agree at all and think focusing on individual games like you did in this post and in your previous post mentioning Titanfall and Moon Studios is telling me you're completely missing the big picture, that we're fundamentally looking at it from a different scale. I elaborated on that here…

www.resetera.com

Xbox is shutting down Arkane Austin, Tango Gameworks, and Alpha Dog Games. Roundhouse Studios absorbed by ZeniMax Online Studios.

Again, there was no way for Xbox to win this gen after losing the most important gen ever unless either: 1) They attempt a radical, industry shifting strategy/idea and it blows up. It didn’t, not to the extent they needed. 2) Sony having a PS3 level own goal. They didn’t. They smartly...
What should we focus then? Sony won the gen just by Naughty Dog. If you can't bring great games, your console will fail.
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,394
Orlando, FL
Haven't read back through all of the additional comments since I signed off last night...will they let this fester through to the Showcase this time, or do another podcast/interview to address the elephant who always seems to be hanging around in the corner.
 
Jul 28, 2020
682
Said "what the fuck" out loud.


Redfall was crap when it launched and its crap now. Literally nothing changed.

Unless you're suggesting Redfall has improved in the last year? And now it's worth shutting down? Oh no its because Microsoft is need of money now, yes. The trillion dollar company.

Mate just admit its all PR bs. Defending a game, killing a studio... its all to do one thing and that's protecting their dollar.

What? I don't think Redfall has had a great redemption arc, but I do think that it's possible for Phil Spencer to have not though that Arcane Austin would be being closed a year after he had defended them in an interview. I don't see what's controversial about that.
 

Paquete_PT

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,446
Exclusives are overrated, when things are going well everyone points to them as the thing that made the console a success. Yet, the very same Mario Kart 8 that has now sold over 60 million units couldn't save the WiiU. So many brilliant titles on the WiiU have flourished on the Switch. Roblox was a defacto Xbox exclusive during last gen. One of the most popular games in the world and it did jack to move the needle. Also, Sony being willing to sell their first party titles on PC is telling.
Using Nintendo as an argument for exclusives being overrated sure is a choice.
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,964
I was going to double dip Hi-fi Rush by buying it on PS, but absolutely not doing that anymore.
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,828
I don't know why you guys are arguing over whether Don or Phil caused the issues when you can literally blame both of them for their failures. Both failed.
 

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,897
They are overrated in the sense that they are not the primary driving force of success. Folks like to hang their hat on exclusives to explain Switch's success ignoring the mobile/handheld aspects of the console. The Switch also streamlined Nintendo's development cycles. Their studios no longer needed to develop for two devices. The motion controls allowed for kids and non gamers to play in a way they were comfortable (maybe intuitive is the better word) with. I can't explain why games that failed to move the needle on the WiiU, absolutely crushed it on the Switch. Also, Nintendo is the last console maker that keeps their first party titles fully console exclusive.

The fact that they keep their exclusive games truly exclusive is why they are the market leaders right now. Well, it's at least a significant contributing factor in my opinion.

A compelling library of exclusive software is always going to be one of the biggest reasons any one decides to invest in a game console. Feel free to desecrate my corpse on that hill because that's where it will be staying forever.
 

silentq15

Member
Aug 15, 2022
545
It's kinda feeling to me they bought Bethesda for Fallout/ES, and then bought Activision for COD and the rest doesn't really matter. That's like 80 billion dollars for like 3-4 IPs. If someone releases a surprise mega hit, well that's great but if they don't, then they are just dead weight that can be scrapped.

Edit: they probably also wanted Doom and Wolfenstein too, but my point still stands
I am imagining now the absolute furor from the gaming community if MS classified Doom as not big enough for them and shut down id software.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
303
Is there any precedent to gaming executives stepping down because of fan criticism?
No, only if they fail financially will they be let go.

If Spencer doesn't turn around Xbox's console situation as well as figure out how to make Gamepass work for developers in the next couple of years (go full 3rd party publisher?) that works financially, then he's going to be gone.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,799
Is there any precedent to gaming executives stepping down because of fan criticism?
I think not

Unless the CEO turn the profit to loss, he will never stepdown.

Edit: so if all these closures and layoffs result in more profits at the end, they will give him a bigger bonus and maybe an award
 

Biteren

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,714
I am imagining now the absolute furor from the gaming community if MS classified Doom as not big enough for them and shut down id software.
as someone who my favorite game of all time (Doom 1993) it makes me very uneasy that its MS that has Doom. I was already bummed for the acquisition that Eternal might be the last time Doom shows up on PS but now its at their mercy if it doesn't meet their expectations.
 

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,095
Exclusives aren't the ONLY thing that matters, but it's hard to use Nintendo as an example and make the argument that their first party software isn't a major selling point for them. Do you really think Switch would have sold well without Nintendo games?
The Steam Deck is doing well enough to sprout a market of competitors and has zero exclusives by definition, so maybe there's a point.
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,964
Is there any precedent to gaming executives stepping down because of fan criticism?
goodfellas-henry-hill.gif
 

Super

Studied the Buster Sword
Member
Jan 29, 2022
7,506
More than anything, though, it's a gut punch because it sends a message. The wrong message, really. Xbox had one major studio in Japan - no more. Xbox is making deals with third parties and independent creators, yes - it's got something in the pipes with Hideo Kojima, for instance - but like I said, the first party is your north star. It's your best foot forward. The message becomes this: Japanese games are not a priority for us.
No amount of Spencer pow-wowing on the Final Fantasy fanfest stage with the Square Enix CEO changes that. No amount of co-marketing money thrown at Persona or Yakuza to get Xbox versions and Xbox logos on the trailers can undo that message. Publishing a Kojima game might help a bit - but not as much as having a beloved Japanese studio in your actual stable. In the end, Kojima is just a gun for hire - whatever he makes for Xbox will be compared to Death Stranding and his big new spy franchise at Sony.

www.vg247.com

With the closure of Tango Gameworks, Xbox sends an accidental message: it is not a platform for fans of Japanese games

No matter what Xbox leadership says in its livestreams or in statements, one thing remains true: it's relationship with Japan never came first.
 

Praglik

Member
Nov 3, 2017
415
SH
Arkane Lyon + Arkane Austin was the GOAT combination.
The former very good at laying down the most solid design foundations, the other one excellent at producing creative content.
We saw it with Deathloop and Redfall, both are missing the other's contribution: Deathloop had a very solid core but lacked craziness. Redfall was missing a polished core design direction.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,794
They are overrated in the sense that they are not the primary driving force of success. Folks like to hang their hat on exclusives to explain Switch's success ignoring the mobile/handheld aspects of the console. The Switch also streamlined Nintendo's development cycles. Their studios no longer needed to develop for two devices. The motion controls allowed for kids and non gamers to play in a way they were comfortable (maybe intuitive is the better word) with. I can't explain why games that failed to move the needle on the WiiU, absolutely crushed it on the Switch. Also, Nintendo is the last console maker that keeps their first party titles fully console exclusive.
The Wii U was a failure on many basic levels. People didn't even know what it was, Nintendo dropped the ball on the thing that should have been easy for any company their size to nail, which was proper marketing.

I wouldn't say exclusives in particular are the driving force for success, but software is. With Nintendo, their big games just happen to be exclusive.

Also people generally cite 'mobile' as the reason for Nintendo's success. Many companies made/make handheld devices. Sony had a really successful one, then they didn't. Nintendo's handhelds are successful because of their software.

Software is critically important when it comes to succeeding. There are other factors, of course, but without software you'd fail. MS is in the position where most of their appealing software can be found on PS, but PS has plenty of heavy hitter that cannot be found on Xbox. That's why people bring up exclusives in this instance.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,836
The fact that they keep their exclusive games truly exclusive is why they are the market leaders right now. Well, it's at least a significant contributing factor in my opinion.

A compelling library of exclusive software is always going to be one of the biggest reasons any one decides to invest in a game console. Feel free to desecrate my corpse on that hill because that's where it will be staying forever.

They kept their games exclusives during the N64, GC and WiiU days as well. Why weren't they the market leader then?