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Splader

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Feb 12, 2018
5,069
A little disappointing, but not unexpected.

So basically, MS split people into two groups. Those that are going from the One S to the Series S, and those going from the One X to the Series X.

Both those groups of people will notice improvements in their new console.
 

Its Dead Jim

Member
Jan 11, 2018
339
Ceti Alpha V
This will entirely depend on the relative sales of each console.

But ensuring S players will have an acceptable experience will always need to be a par of development from the start.
This is bollocks. Absolute nonsense. PC games aren't developed with the best selling GPU as the base target. It is much more difficult to scale a game up effectively than it is to scale a game down.

The XSX will always be the target (well not really as higher spec PCs will be the actual target), and the game scaled down from there.

The devs will have to account for PC specs at or below the level of the XSS anyway.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
If you've got a One X and a 4K HDR set, I wouldn't recommend buying the Series S if backwards compatibility matters to you as a rule of thumb, but it's going to come down to the games you're planning on revisiting.

TBH if you bought an X1X at $500 you're probably buying the Series X. I am. And yes, I have a Ferrari and spend a lot on hookers, blow, and caviar. j/k
 

Cyclonesweep

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Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I think I wrongly assumed Series S was actually more capable than One X.
Well if that's the case Series S makes absolutely no sense in my life.
No you rightly assumed. The Series S is way more capable than the One X, just in this case do to the way enhancements were developed and coded the Series S can't run them without patches. That's it
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
I wonder how many people acting like they're losing their minds over this were saying "BC doesn't matter" at the beginning of last gen, if you know what I mean.
 

Dust

C H A O S
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Oct 25, 2017
33,263
This is kinda weird all things considered, shouldn't XSS be able to brute force this stuff? It's stronger than XBX.
 

Pancakes R Us

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Oct 27, 2017
8,414
Sorry, that was a typo on my part. The Series S should be able to do 1440/120fps. It depends on how you define better. Series S, higher framerates. One X, higher resolution. I can tell you that though that 1440/120 will look better than 4k/60 if your TV or monitor can handle that high of a frame rate. 4K just isn't worth the performance hit.
I don't think I have anything that can handle 120fps at the moment. I'll just be happy with 60fps. Thanks for explaining :)
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
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Oct 25, 2017
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That is true, Xbox One version of Control will again be a 900p30 on Series S, bit this time Zen2+RDNA2 will iron out performance problems easily.


Some games will of course get special attention by devs, but that will be rare.
I really wish I could say 'but you'll get a next gen version of Control that'll run at at least 1080p and look better in other ways for no extra charge!'.

But I can't say that to anyone who bought the game prior to this week :/

I really hope they get shamed into letting people get the upgrade without having to rebuy all the content they already paid for, even if it means a small upgrade fee, but I'm not holding my breath.

The rule of thumb is going to be One X enhanced games will look worse on the Series S, of course. Games that never received a One X enhancement will look better than they do on the One X. Games that receive a specific Series S enhancement will look better than they do on the One X (at 1440p or less at least). There'll be fringe cases where these don't hold, but they'll be fringe cases.
 

Deleted member 43

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This is bollocks. Absolute nonsense. PC games aren't developed with the best selling GPU as the base target. It is much more difficult to scale a game up effectively than it is to scale a game down.

The XSX will always be the target (well not really as higher spec PCs will be the actual target), and the game scaled down from there.

The devs will have to account for PC specs at or below the level of the XSS anyway.
Games are currently developed with the need to run well on consoles from 2013 as their baseline targets.

Consoles provided the baseline that older PCs benefit from. This is what the "what about PCs" meme constantly overlooks.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,278
Really looking forward to Digital Foundry comparing One X/Series S/Series X stuff. Obviously Series S should outperform One X most of the time, but I wonder if we'll see specific games where there are slight advantages on the One X.
 

Andromeda

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Oct 27, 2017
4,872
No, games will be developed on PC for performance targets like they always have been.

But ensuring the S version will be acceptable simply has to be a part of development from the start. It can't be an afterthought.
It was obvious for many, but thanks for confirming it to us. The reduced ram size will be a problem in some next-gen (not cross-gen) games. I won't be surprised if some devs (notably japanese) decide not to make an Xbox version altogether because of this.
 

eathdemon

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Oct 27, 2017
9,690
The CPU is essentially the same between the X, S, and PS5. That's largely a non-factor.

The RAM differences are the biggest issue here, and then the GPU. Resolution will not nearly cover the whole delta in many or most cases.

Worrying about the S massively holding back the other systems' potential is largely hyperbole, but at the same time discounting the complications it introduces or thinking it will be an afterthought in development (unless it completely bombs) is just not realistic. The S will be the new baseline performance profile developers need to keep in mind when developing games, just like the original Xbox One was.
a lot of the ram problem gets delt with by devs using 1080p assets in the s version though. ms built a backend to handle file delivery for the 2 versions for this reason. hell I am a pc player using a 1080p monitor I would love to dl 1080p assests, instead of the 4k ones new releases make me dl.
 
Oct 25, 2017
33,068
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At the risk of sounding pedantic I think we should stop saying this device is a BC console and say it's a GamePass console. Because there is no disc drive to play Xbox, Xbox 360 or Xbox One X games, and there is no system wide emulation solution for Xbox or Xbox 360 (that I know of) so it's up to Microsoft individually adding those older titles to their store/GamePass library.

I just think there is a big enough difference that we should be more careful about how we present the console imo. I think backwards compatibility is getting really watered down as a term this past year.

That's not too pedantic lol. It's true, lots of folks have physical PS4 and Xbox One physical libraries that are gonna get screwed out of BC if they opt for the cheaper options next gen. I think MS was always banking on those folks who are wanting to play all their own games at the highest quality to go for the Series X. If it's just a $50 difference between PS5DE and PS5, then that's a decent proposal for those folks. There may be a bit of a disconnect for those budget conscious gamers who have a lot of XB1 physical games but don't want to shell out for the premium next-gen console. Kind of a double edged sword with them presenting only one option for discs and having it $200 more expensive.
 

McScroggz

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Jan 11, 2018
5,979
577 x360 games, 41 xbox og games, and 100% of all Xbox One digital games (non-Kinect) should work digitally. I would still say that's a BC console. It's been 7 years since the 360 was put away, and 15 years since the Xbox OG was. I would say BC digital is fair. There were only a couple disc-only BC games on Xbox One as it is.

I get your point, and I'm sure a lot of the games people would want to play is already on the list or will be added later. My contention isn't so much that the Xbox Series S can't function as a great way to play some older Xbox titles while also being a cheap way to play next generation games; but I personally (and I'm sure I'm very much in the minority) don't really like referring to that as backwards compatibility.

Like, the PS3 launched with relative full, disc-based backwards compatibility. If you had a PS1/PS2 game you could put it in and it generally just worked. But that was an expensive extra component, so they removed the native backwards compatibility from future PS3 models. However, PS1/PS2 games were sold digitally as classics - and I certainly wouldn't position the PS3 as a backwards compatible machine.

Obviously the Xbox Series offers a larger selection of games, but the basic principle stands. And what really makes me, again personally, wish it wasn't constantly referred to as a backwards compatible console is the possibility (at least I think it's possible) that Microsoft will be able to come out with a system-wide software emulation sort of tool that they could implement. Without an optical drive the Xbox Series S is pretty much locked into the digital offering.

Like I said it's a bit pedantic which I totally admit, but I do think it's a real distinction. Unless we learn something new about the PS5 I certainly don't consider it a backwards compatible machine other than for PS4.
 

Deleted member 43

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It was obvious for many, but thanks for confirming it to us. The reduced ram size will be a problem in some next-gen (not cross-gen) games. I won't be surprised if some devs (notably japanese) decide not to make an Xbox version altogether because of this.
No, the existence of the S will not keep games off the Xbox platform. Things are not nearly that dire.
 
May 12, 2020
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I though series s was overall more powerful than the one x because RDNA 2. At least that's what everyone here has been saying.
 

eathdemon

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Oct 27, 2017
9,690
It was obvious for many, but thanks for confirming it to us. The reduced ram size will be a problem in some next-gen (not cross-gen) games. I won't be surprised if some devs (notably japanese) decide not to make an Xbox version altogether because of this.
ram isnt that much of a issue if resalution corect assetas are used, which mostly means re rendering their assets at 1080p.
 

Deleted member 43

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a lot of the ram problem gets delt with by devs using 1080p assets in the s version though. ms built a backend to handle file delivery for the 2 versions for this reason. hell I am a pc player using a 1080p monitor I would love to dl 1080p assests, instead of the 4k ones new releases make me dl.
Yeah, that's not really true. Using lower resolution textures will help if that's what a dev decides to do, but the impact of that decision is not as massive as you indicate.
 

Darmik

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Oct 25, 2017
718
I think it's just one of those awkward things where One X profiles just didn't really work right on the Series S.

It'll be interesting to see how Gears Ultimate will be on the Series S since that one is being enhanced by the BC team. I think the games that didn't get a One X patch that get improved by the BC team will also be better than the One X so it'll be a mixed bag overall.
 

TCG276

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Dec 17, 2017
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Aren't all of the X Enhanced games running at 4K? If so, It makes sense that they wouldn't be able to just direct port them to the Series S. I'm sure they could probably get them working with Series S (at 1440P) but that would likely take a lot of time and money.
 

VanDoughnut

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Oct 30, 2017
3,440
$300 makes this less of an issue. Weird in that you don't usually see a new console kinda go backwards in some areas of performance but they have different goals in mind (From One X to Series S)

It's kinda weird that the XSS can do 120fps, iono if the market that's into a budget console who doesn't really care about 4K has monitors capable of that: though I'm sure it's appreciated by those that do.
 

19thCenturyFox

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Oct 29, 2017
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This is bollocks. Absolute nonsense. PC games aren't developed with the best selling GPU as the base target. It is much more difficult to scale a game up effectively than it is to scale a game down.

The XSX will always be the target (well not really as higher spec PCs will be the actual target), and the game scaled down from there.

The devs will have to account for PC specs at or below the level of the XSS anyway.

That entirely depends on the game and how it uses the hardware capabilities of the Series X. What if someone makes a game for Series X that doesn't use ultra high res textures that could be lowered in asset quality to make up a 5.5 GB gap in RAM capacity? They could use the RAM for other purposes than to use it as storage for 8K textures and uncompressed zbrush models and go all Dwarf Fortress on us in terms of scale and complexity. That imaginary super edge case will also have to run on Series S.

This isn't going to impact your yearly EA Sports roster update but it could impact the next game created from the minds of a Hideo Kojima or Jonathan Blow.
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
This is bollocks. Absolute nonsense. PC games aren't developed with the best selling GPU as the base target. It is much more difficult to scale a game up effectively than it is to scale a game down.

The XSX will always be the target (well not really as higher spec PCs will be the actual target), and the game scaled down from there.

The devs will have to account for PC specs at or below the level of the XSS anyway.

Uh, this isn't remotely true. You can bet if the S doesn't sell well, they simply won't care quite as much if the experience is a little subpar on there.
 

Its Dead Jim

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Jan 11, 2018
339
Ceti Alpha V
Games are currently developed with the need to run well on consoles from 2013 as their baseline targets.

Consoles provided the baseline that older PCs benefit from.
If that was the case then new ganes launching on a One S will have locked fps at the 1080p res. This isn't the case though is it?

A game Is developed at above recommended spec level and optimised down. Look at Cyberpunk. It will look incredible on HE pcs and XSX/PS5. What res and fps do you expect on One S? Locked?
 

headspawn

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Oct 27, 2017
14,672
Certainly sucks but not really surprising.

There is still room for framerate improvements, the promised HDR upgrades and such that will likely be able to be taken advantage of with the Series S, so it's not all bad all around and it makes sense given how some of our more knowledgeable members have described the hardware/software differences.

Either way, I'll be using the Series X for myself as my main console; grabbing a Series S that will be for the kids and when we need something to bring along for travel, it still an amazing deal.
 

Garrett 2U

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Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Again, I assumed Series S would have no problems running X360/One games at 1440/60 at least.

Ah that makes sense. But that was never going to happen, because the Xbox backwards compatibility is emulation of the native code. So at best, we would have just gotten native Xbox One X performance.
 

horkrux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,824
man that's four individual profiles for crossgen games - and that's just on the Xbox side of things..
 

Canas Renvall

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Mar 4, 2018
2,568
... Three years ago, yes.

You can look at most technology and find examples of newer, cheaper hardware outpacing equivalents from years ago. Smart phones, laptops, PC parts, and yes, game consoles.
And XSS is launching at the X1X's current MSRP. With tech that leaves it in the dust in all but one arbitrary way that won't affect game design. :P
 

headspawn

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Oct 27, 2017
14,672
If that was the case then new ganes launching on a One S will have locked fps at the 1080p res. This isn't the case though is it?

A game Is developed at above recommended spec level and optimized down. Look at Cyberpunk. It will look incredible on HE pcs and XSX/PS5. What res and fps do you expect on One S? Locked?

That's assuming 1080p is some baseline spec for Xbox One, when we know it usually ranges from 720p-900p for a lot of the more intensive games; 1080p was never the standard on Xbox One. PS4 is more of a 1080p machine and what you're saying generally applies there.

People seem to be expecting 1080p+ from Series S; framerate depends on the game.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
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Oct 25, 2017
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Really looking forward to Digital Foundry comparing One X/Series S/Series X stuff. Obviously Series S should outperform One X most of the time, but I wonder if we'll see specific games where there are slight advantages on the One X.
Yeah. I bet there will be at least some oddball fringe cases. This stuff interests the heck out of me.

Will it run unpatched Assassin's Creed Unity? If so... will it lock at 60?

Ah, shit, I just realized that dream is dead, at least on the Series S cause it won't be able to run off a disc.
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
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If that was the case then new ganes launching on a One S will have locked fps at the 1080p res. This isn't the case though is it?

A game Is developed at above recommended spec level and optimised down. Look at Cyberpunk. It will look incredible on HE pcs and XSX/PS5. What res and fps do you expect on One S? Locked?
Umm, "acceptable performance" unfortunately doesn't mean a locked frame rate and 1080p. It means that the average player will be comfortable enough with the graphics and frame rate so that sales won't be negatively impacted.

Games are currently developed with consoles from 2013 setting that standard. For next gen, (again unless it tanks) the S will be the system establishing that baseline.

Also, Cyberpunk might end up being a particularly poor example for this discussion...
 
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Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
No, the existence of the S will not keep games off the Xbox platform. Things are not nearly that dire.

I have to say, I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least a factor in some select games possibly not coming to the platform later, depending on just how well the S does.

Especially in special cases like late ports of, say, Japanese games that prioritize the PS5. For example, if we see another Yakuza-like situation next-gen where a game is built for PS5, and porting down to Series S proves a bit problematic, we might see situations where they simply don't bother. But again, that does depend on just how well an individual game is expected to sell on Series S. I can just see the difficulty of the port being another factor that goes into that decision making process.
 

Adrifi

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They'll get a Series S patch like Gears 5, don't see much of a problem here tbh. The console is designed for people who don't have 4K screens. And even if a game doesn't get patched you'll still have better frame rates, automatic HDR (I want to know more about that) and much shorter load times.
 

Its Dead Jim

Member
Jan 11, 2018
339
Ceti Alpha V
Uh, this isn't remotely true. You can bet if the S doesn't sell well, they simply won't care quite as much if the experience is a little subpar on there.
Games on XSS will be scaled diwn to meet the devs aims/goals. Ideally, dropping the res will be enough and fps/details/effects will stay the same.

This wont always be the case and other concessions may need to be made i.e drop detsils/effects to keep fps locked or accept inconsistent frames to keep details high.
 
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