Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
With directML I also think that kinetic would take significant less resources for the game to extract the pose from the camera feed, even solve better partial occlusion too.

Too bad we will likely not see the benefits of that in a new Kinect any time soon :(
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,319
NJ
The advancements on BCPack is looking very good from a dev working on it. Really impressive results in his tweets
 

solis74

Member
Jun 11, 2018
43,826
Thanks man!

I'm particularly fond of machine learning. I think there's a huge potential for the most unimaginable tasks.

One recent demo that I came across :



It uses machine learning to simulate cloth physics. Basically the model understands how should the cloth behave physically on a character and then can apply in real time with a fraction of the cost from calculating the physics directly.

And this example alone opens up a can of worms. Imagine that being applied to:
- Hair
- Fluids
- Smoke
- Physical based animations
- Vegetation physics
- Destruction physics

The possibilities are mind blowing no?


wow!
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
With directML I also think that kinetic would take significant less resources for the game to extract the pose from the camera feed, even solve better partial occlusion too.

Too bad we will likely not see the benefits of that in a new Kinect any time soon :(
So sad :(

Still curious if MS will include far field mics into the console at all. Seems they've opted not to, probably for cost reasons, but it does seem like a tiny bit of a missed opportunity to make the Xbox the default home speaker - for both Alexa and Google Assistant (and even Cortana maybe) - in the living room.
 

solis74

Member
Jun 11, 2018
43,826
I read this thread more than I interact in it, the same with the other console one.

I see a certain individual has been banned in here for a week, but only after the double standards were pointed out...

The annoying thing is he'll be back in a week in here again, to be disingenuous. iirc he was banned multiple times when these console threads were merged, how many chances will he get?

I very, very rarely add anyone to ignore but even I'm tempted.

And with that I'm looking forward to reading good discussion on topic. In both threads ;)

yeah he was very obvious
 

etta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,512
carcompare.png
Holy shit now that's what I'm talking about.
If devs only need to target 1080/1440p and reconstruct to 4K like this, they'll have all that horsepower left on the table.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,734
So sad :(

Still curious if MS will include far field mics into the console at all. Seems they've opted not to, probably for cost reasons, but it does seem like a tiny bit of a missed opportunity to make the Xbox the default home speaker - for both Alexa and Google Assistant (and even Cortana maybe) - in the living room.

They were burned so hard for it with the Xbox one, I can't blame them for not trying again, especially as it still requires a degree of on-nes for it to work.
Plus everyone has it built into their phone already and that Alexa and Google are both compatible with Xbox one anyway (I think)
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,749
I read this thread more than I interact in it, the same with the other console one.

I see a certain individual has been banned in here for a week, but only after the double standards were pointed out...

The annoying thing is he'll be back in a week in here again, to be disingenuous. iirc he was banned multiple times when these console threads were merged, how many chances will he get?

I very, very rarely add anyone to ignore but even I'm tempted.

And with that I'm looking forward to reading good discussion on topic. In both threads ;)
The way that bans are handled, I have resorted to using ignore instead of report because it doesn't make a difference anyways. At least with ignore I have a modicum of control.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
Hasn't Phil mentioned multiple times that Gamepass is profitable?
No. All he has said is that it's meeting their goals or something like that, but of course that means nothing as their goal is likely to lose money for years in hopes of gaining lots of subscribers.

There is absolutely no chance they are making money on Gamepass right now.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
No. All he has said is that it's meeting their goals or something like that, but of course that means nothing as their goal is likely to lose money for years in hopes of gaining lots of subscribers.

There is absolutely no chance they are making money on Gamepass right now.
Why?

It's not like they have been paying big bucks for getting AAA 3rd party games day one on the service. They have been pretty conservative with that adding mostly smaller stuff or a few months after release.

Their profits increased a lot since gamepass was introduced, and even last year when hardware fell they said that the drop would be greater if not for services picking up the slack. Keep in mind that other than the sub revenue (which really should be sizeable by now as the promos require you to be un subbed for at least 3 months, it's not something that you can keep continously using the 1 dollar offer, and it's likely that people keep the sub afterwards) there's also the indirect profits GP brings (as they said their users end up spending a lot more on Xbox after subbing).
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
Why?

It's not like they have been paying big bucks for getting AAA 3rd party games day one on the service. They have been pretty conservative with that adding mostly smaller stuff or a few months after release.

Their profits increased a lot since gamepass was introduced, and even last year when hardware fell they said that the drop would be greater if not for services picking up the slack. Keep in mind that other than the sub revenue (which really should be sizeable by now as the promos require you to be un subbed for at least 3 months, it's not something that you can keep continously using the 1 dollar offer, and it's likely that people keep the sub afterwards) there's also the indirect profits GP brings (as they said their users end up spending a lot more on Xbox after subbing).
Because that's how every single subscription service seems to work. You have no idea how much they're paying to get games just a few months after release, but I'll bet it's more than you think. It's very hard to make money on a $10 a month subscription. Did you know Netflix still doesn't turn a profit? They're massively successful and they still spend more than they make each year.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not a big fan of game pass.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Why?

It's not like they have been paying big bucks for getting AAA 3rd party games day one on the service. They have been pretty conservative with that adding mostly smaller stuff or a few months after release.

Their profits increased a lot since gamepass was introduced, and even last year when hardware fell they said that the drop would be greater if not for services picking up the slack. Keep in mind that other than the sub revenue (which really should be sizeable by now as the promos require you to be un subbed for at least 3 months, it's not something that you can keep continously using the 1 dollar offer, and it's likely that people keep the sub afterwards) there's also the indirect profits GP brings (as they said their users end up spending a lot more on Xbox after subbing).
Game Pass is obviously not profitable, which is exactly how it's supposed to be at this point.

If GP was currently profitable, that would mean the MS wasn't growing the service as aggressively as they could be.
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,204
Game Pass is obviously not profitable, which is exactly how it's supposed to be at this point.

If GP was currently profitable, that would mean the MS wasn't growing the service as aggressively as they could be.
GamePass itself might not make money but secondary store sales after games leave the pass and dlcs etc could generate more revenue etc yes? I think MS was saying people are trying more and buying more games now with gamepass than without it
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
GamePass itself might not make money but secondary store sales after games leave the pass and dlcs etc could generate more revenue etc yes? I think MS was saying people are trying more and buying more games now with gamepass than without it
Nah. More revenue from knock-on effects sure, but not enough to change anything.

Again, no one at MS is worried Game Pass isn't profitable right now. It's not supposed to be.

So fans don't have to be either.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Because that's how every single subscription service seems to work. You have no idea how much they're paying to get games just a few months after release, but I'll bet it's more than you think. It's very hard to make money on a $10 a month subscription. Did you know Netflix still doesn't turn a profit? They're massively successful and they still spend more than they make each year.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not a big fan of game pass.
in netflix's defense the entertainment industry would rather fail separably, than profit together. had netflix been able to keep its old model as the equvlent of direct to consumer, instead of being forced to produce content, it would have worked, but everyone got money signs and pulled their content. in effect no one has enough content to support themselves, but they dont want to share.
 

Judau

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,865
Because that's how every single subscription service seems to work. You have no idea how much they're paying to get games just a few months after release, but I'll bet it's more than you think. It's very hard to make money on a $10 a month subscription. Did you know Netflix still doesn't turn a profit? They're massively successful and they still spend more than they make each year.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not a big fan of game pass.

I'm not sure I understand. You're not a fan because it's not profitable for MS?
 

freshyk

Member
Jan 15, 2020
319
I'm not a big fan of Game Pass because I think it commoditizes games and ultimately cheapens them as an entertainment product by driving everything down. It's definitely pro-consumer, though, and I"ve certainly used it to play some games I normally wouldn't spend money on (and after playing them am glad I didn't shell out full prices on any of them).

For example, Nintendo would NEVER do such a thing because they know each of their games commands a premium price because it's a premium product.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
That doesn't answer the question. Let me rephrase; why would profitability affect whether or not you're a fan?
Because I view a lack of profitability as a negative for an industry I'm very fond of.

I want developers, publishers, and the console makers to be successful and make a profit. I believe game pass has the potential to do great damage to the industry as a whole if it were to become very popular.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
It'll be interesting to see where Gamepass is in a few years. I had next to no interest in the service when it started. Another subscription service, and you don't own the games? No thanks.

But then I got a full year with that $1 promotion back in October or November. The amount of games that I've played, and the convenience of just downloading new releases like Gears 5 and Ori (or in the future, Psychonauts 2 and Halo Infinite) without having to individually buy them all is really nice. I'll look into any deals near the XSX launch, but I'm keeping Gamepass through the next generation even if I have to pay full price.
 

Judau

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,865
Because I view a lack of profitability as a negative for an industry I'm very fond of.

I want developers, publishers, and the console makers to be successful and make a profit. I believe game pass has the potential to do great damage to the industry as a whole if it were to become very popular.

I understand, and I agree that everyone in the game industry (or any industry, really) should be making a profit. But also, I don't think MS would have come up with GamePass if there was that potential to damage the industry. They certainly wouldn't do it if it wasn't sustainable for them as a first-party game publisher/developer.
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,204
Because I view a lack of profitability as a negative for an industry I'm very fond of.

I want developers, publishers, and the console makers to be successful and make a profit. I believe game pass has the potential to do great damage to the industry as a whole if it were to become very popular.
That depends on how you value gatekeepers I guess. Was the music industry better or worse before Spotify/YouTube Music and Apple Music? Was the TV industry in a better place before Netflix / Hulu ?

I would say subscription services democratise the users to play a whole new raft of experiences that they otherwise wouldn't with the traditional gatekeepers of store fronts / media articles. Hell its almost a revival of the demo disk in that you are encouraged to purchase before they leave and are reminded about it
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
I understand, and I agree that everyone in the game industry (or any industry, really) should be making a profit. But also, I don't think MS would have come up with GamePass if there was that potential to damage the industry. They certainly wouldn't do it if it wasn't sustainable for them as a first-party game publisher/developer.
Well, that's the thing. If game pass were to become very successful I do think it could eventually become profitable for Microsoft.

However, I think that success could come at the expense of everyone else in the industry. I think there is a real danger in a $10 a month service reconfiguring people's value perspective on games. You already see people on this forum say things like "I'll wait for it to hit game pass". Now imagine how the industry looks if millions of people start saying that. It wouldn't be good, I can tell you that much. This industry needs day one, full price sales for most games to be profitable.

That depends on how you value gatekeepers I guess. Was the music industry better or worse before Spotify/YouTube Music and Apple Music? Was the TV industry in a better place before Netflix / Hulu ?

I would say subscription services democratise the users to play a whole new raft of experiences that they otherwise wouldn't with the traditional gatekeepers of store fronts / media articles. Hell its almost a revival of the demo disk in that you are encouraged to purchase before they leave and are reminded about it
Demo discs didn't give you access to the entire game for months, where many people could experience everything they wanted from a game. I highly doubt many people are buying those games when they're leaving game pass. Unless it's a service game with ongoing content most people get their fill and move on.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,935
Here's the thing about Gamepass, we know that there is over 1 million subscribers (I do not remember the quote, and I am pretty sure it was before even Gamepass Ultimate launched) and we know that a lot of people fully loaded Xbox Live Gold then converted to Ultimate for $1.

Assuming that the at least 1 million users all signed up using the 3 years gold conversion ($180 for three years, or $5 a month following GAAP) that means that Microsoft is earning at least $5 million a month at the bare minimum, and is also almost certainly making more (since again, when the 1 million comment was made, cheapest was $100 for a year, or $8.33 a month excluding deals) and Gamepass numbers are growing with more games being added.

If Gamepass isn't profitable yet, it's only because MS wants to maximize long term profits, and I can guarantee that many people will stick with $15/month Ultimate in 3 years time as well as MS being less aggressive with newer third party AAA games (like DmC V, Metro Exodus etc)
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,969
Because that's how every single subscription service seems to work. You have no idea how much they're paying to get games just a few months after release, but I'll bet it's more than you think. It's very hard to make money on a $10 a month subscription. Did you know Netflix still doesn't turn a profit? They're massively successful and they still spend more than they make each year.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not a big fan of game pass.

You're not a fan because it doesnt print money for MS?

So the same reason you're saying it's a failure (they have to pay too much for the games on it), should disqualify any potential misgivings (ie - devs / publishers not getting fairly remunerated).

I'm so confused by your opinions on this.

Like fuck, how is gamepass a bad thing in the slightest for us as gamers?

Just like games I dont want badly enough to buy until deep sale, most of the stuff I wait to play on gamepass I literally am not willing to pay anything significant for.

Concerns about games being value distorted are overblown, and this is coming from someone who owns a luxury fashion business (end of season discounts will never kill interest for full price items - quality and desirability of design motivates value and that will never change).

Edit: I should add that I agree with the sentiment that games need full price sales to sustain a healthy industry (just like in my industry, its crucial).

Sale customers and gamepass customers would never be those sales though, so I think its misguided to presume gamepass or sale customers would ever have been full price customers anyway.

Long story short, if I'm stoked af for a game, I'm fkn buying it day one full price.

If I'm not willing to do that, I forget about it until I'm bored enough to consider it again at a future date, and assess my options - whether I decide to buy it full price, discounted, or wait for gamepass depends on personal finances, amount of other game purchases to compete with, and how badly I want to play the game.

In the end, perceived quality in conjunction with personal taste and circumstance will always dictate how I choose to buy / access any game.

Gamepass' existence has not changed how many games I outright buy by any measurable percentage as yet, personally.
 
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arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Holy shit now that's what I'm talking about.
If devs only need to target 1080/1440p and reconstruct to 4K like this, they'll have all that horsepower left on the table.
We have to see how ML is done on RDNA2 hardware. They don't seem to have something like tensor cores from Nvidia and are using shader cores iirc. This will impact performance.

Did you know Netflix still doesn't turn a profit? They're massively successful and they still spend more than they make each year.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not a big fan of game pass.
Netflix doesn't make a profit on purpose, because they want to rapidly grow the service.

I'm not a big fan of Game Pass because I think it commoditizes games and ultimately cheapens them as an entertainment product by driving everything down.
This reminds me of the early days, when steam was doing these crazy sales and gamers wondered how this can be an good idea. The simple answer was that a lower price opens the door for more gamers, which otherwise wouldn't be able or interested in purchasing the game.

I don't know if we can blame gamepass for commodities games and cheapen them, when we got F2P games. I think those were an bigger influence in this regard.

I don't think gamepass or PS Now are necessarily an bad idea, when lowering the entry price makes second hand sales, developers earn nothing with, get less enticing and when sub services open the door for more gamers. There are certainly risk publishers need to monitor, but imo an sub services provides advantages, too.

This a comment by Cory the God of War developer. Out of context a bit, but he thinks games need to become cheaper and imo one way to achieve this is sub services.
twitter.com

Cory Balrog 🖖 on Twitter

“@maau1092 We don't get a say, no. Games should and do all eventually decrease in price. It's not really a problem since the teams still share in the profits - if that is something their company does, of course. Used games on the other hand...”
 
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Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,804
Game Pass is obviously not profitable, which is exactly how it's supposed to be at this point.

If GP was currently profitable, that would mean the MS wasn't growing the service as aggressively as they could be.
If it was profitable. Then Gold would probably be gone also. Probably the reason its still arround it earns to much money to get rid of it and Gamepass is not yet ready to take over.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,116
Amalthea
I hope the SX has a good upscaler, some of those older Xbox One titles will look rough in 4k. I kinda wish the console would automatically boost the resolution of those games in some way haha
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,806
United States
If the leak about DMC5 costing MS $19 million is correct, then they probably spend no more than $50 million per month securing content. That's all of 5 million subs worth of monthly revenue, and I bet they have more than 5 million subs.

Yeah I get there are other costs (servers, ads, etc) and sources of revenue (DLC, additional full game sales due to discover via Game Pass) to factor in, but I don't really understand why the assumption is that it loses huge amounts of money. Phil Spencer has even said repeatedly that this isn't their model and that Game Pass "works today." I'm guessing it's much closer to break even than many believe.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,076
Because I view a lack of profitability as a negative for an industry I'm very fond of.

I want developers, publishers, and the console makers to be successful and make a profit. I believe game pass has the potential to do great damage to the industry as a whole if it were to become very popular.

Some games don't deserve $60. I'm sorry man but it's the truth and I'm glad Game Pass let me save money.

Industry shoving AAA up my ass with greedy microtransactions, I shove it back with my Game Pass sub.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I'm not a big fan of Game Pass because I think it commoditizes games and ultimately cheapens them as an entertainment product by driving everything down. It's definitely pro-consumer, though, and I"ve certainly used it to play some games I normally wouldn't spend money on (and after playing them am glad I didn't shell out full prices on any of them).

For example, Nintendo would NEVER do such a thing because they know each of their games commands a premium price because it's a premium product.

It cheapens a distribution method. Not the content. While you can access lots of expensive content cheap in Netflix, the demand for creative talent in the movie industry actually increased despite traditional DVD sales and theater attendance decreasing. It didn't take anything away. It simply diluted everything that existed before while driving up demand and increasing exposure of more high quality content. In the end, if consumer and the creative benefit, seems like an overall win.


Because I view a lack of profitability as a negative for an industry I'm very fond of.

I want developers, publishers, and the console makers to be successful and make a profit. I believe game pass has the potential to do great damage to the industry as a whole if it were to become very popular.

New ventures generally aren't profitable. Welcome to business. These types of business models are about reaching a tipping point at scale. You cannot reach scale unless you're willing to lose money initially.
 
Mar 20, 2020
143
I still tend to think the clock bump on the ps5 was a prity late choice tbh. those clock speeds make no sense on soc, unless you got info your compeditor was going to release a way more powerful system than you.
I initially had a similar view. However, looking into it, it seems like a clever play on CPU/GPU frequencies with the power target being fixed. We can deduct from RDNA1 based GPUs that 2Ghz is the sweet spot. I think this my have been further conflated with the GitHub leak, where we also saw testing at 2Ghz, and generally these frequencies are not ever seen on an APU inside consoles, so this was considered to be already extremely high for a GPU.

However, what has been claimed of RDNA2 so far is that the efficiency gains are upto 50% greater than RDNA1, and this infers frequencies can be pushed higher. Of course we have no way of testing this yet as RDNA2 has not been released as a product, even in the PC space.

Moreover, as someone has pointed out, on the Xbox there aren't any 52CU GPUs running at a fixed 1.85Ghz either.

We can only go by Mark Cerny statements that the CPU/GPU will run most of the time at these frequencies. We have not been told what the actual lower bounds are, and interestingly we may never know. We have been given an example of 10% drop in power output which leads to 3% drop in frequency.

It certainly looks better for you console on paper with this variable frequency model. Interestingly by their own admission they were unable to hit 3Ghz on the CPU, and 2Ghz on the GPU using the traditional fixed clock model.

As the next generation goes on, and as game development starts pushing these GPU/CPUs much harder, it will be interesting to see how the performance hold up.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
Game Pass is obviously not profitable, which is exactly how it's supposed to be at this point.

If GP was currently profitable, that would mean the MS wasn't growing the service as aggressively as they could be.
I get the point of burning money for consumers. But that does not necessarily means that they are not making any profit.

You said it yourself once that Phil had to prove to Ms that Xbox was capable of making money. And even Phil had a point that crossing 10bln in revenue and making money was an eye opener for Ms.

So I do think that they are being somewhat conservative with how much they spent to grow the service, and I would argue that they not being as aggressive as they could would also describe the current situation.

For example when they thought getting Rise of Tomb Raider as a timed exclusive would have helped growing the xbone userbase they invested the money to make it a timed exclusive.

To have big 3rd party releases day one on gamepass would certainly be cheaper than getting a full year of exclusivity and they haven't done it yet for any game that is not self published. So they are demonstrably not being as aggressive as they can or have done to grow the service.

Though as I said before, I think that since they can directly correlate the user spending habits to the sub that they may very well be accounting for the increase in spending per user as part of Gamepass profits.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
Because that's how every single subscription service seems to work. You have no idea how much they're paying to get games just a few months after release, but I'll bet it's more than you think. It's very hard to make money on a $10 a month subscription. Did you know Netflix still doesn't turn a profit? They're massively successful and they still spend more than they make each year.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not a big fan of game pass.
Netflix does not turn a profit because they don't want to. They make big bucks but decide to spend all that money in more content to get even more subscribers, and it's a very old play to get out of taxes as well, as the money you'd pay for taxes turns into even more money for you (that's basically how Amazon has sustained an incredible growth).

I think it could be the same for Ms if you account for all the investments that they are making in 1st party. But if you consider only what they are actually spending to get people on the service via deals and 3rd party content? Nah.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
DirectML is great.
And can be used like DLSS.




DirectML / Nvidia SIGGRAPH 2018:


devblogs.microsoft.com

Gaming with Windows ML - DirectX Developer Blog

Neural Networks Will Revolutionize Gaming Earlier this month, Microsoft announced the availability of Windows Machine Learning. We mentioned the wide-ranging applications of WinML on areas as diverse as security, productivity, and the internet of things. We even showed how WinML can be used to...

1080P to 4K using DirectML Super Resolution:
( Left ) DirectML Super Resolution / Bilinear Upscaling ( Right )

carcompare.png


D5vMVYYW4AEWndD


What in gods name is this magic! is that picture of the car from something the series X will have to play with? that is absolutely insane.
 

Deleted member 8579

Oct 26, 2017
33,843
Price will be interesting considering it's still pretty good tech across the board even if it's 1080/1440p upscaled to 4K.

500GB SSD might suck but it's the cheaper console so they might not put in a 1TB SSD hoping to get some extra storage sales with the expansion they showed already.

Would it include a Blu-ray drive, possibly not?

Smaller form factor, less cooling saves money too

It could hit 299 doing that but I think 349 for Lockhart, 499-549 for Series X.