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jungius

Member
Sep 5, 2021
2,315
A string of six videogame addiction lawsuits have recently been filed against Microsoft, Activision Blizzard, Roblox, Epic Games, Rockstar, and other major game developers and publishers. The complaints, which were all submitted to courts within the past 12 months, claim that game developers are intentionally making players addicted to their games.

As part of a motion filed this month to dismiss one of the complaints, that of an Arkansas woman and her son, the targeted game developers called it "an attack on the First Amendment rights of videogame creators."

The Arkansas lawsuit alleges that Roblox, Fortnite, Call of Duty, Minecraft, and other popular games used "addictive psychological features" to hook the son starting when he was 12 years old. Now 21, he currently spends $350 a month on games, dropped out of school, has been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and "anxiety," and has experienced "withdrawal symptoms such as rage, anger, and physical outbursts," according to the suit. It also alleges that the mother could not regulate her son's gaming because she "feared" him as a result of his outbursts.

The complaint says that the game developers are liable for defective and negligent designs that "take advantage of the chemical reward system of a user's brain (especially a minor) to create addictive engagement, compulsive use, and additional mental and physical harm," as well as failure to warn users of the risk of addiction.

In their motion to dismiss, the developers' lawyers argue that games are an expressive medium, as established in a 2011 Supreme Court decision, and that finding their expression "too entertaining" is not a valid reason to limit constitutionally protected speech. They also say that the plaintiffs fail to clearly establish what features of each game specifically caused harm and how.

The complaint dedicates a number of pages to describing generally the alleged addictive properties of each game. Some commonly criticized aspects of modern games come up, such as "predatory monetization" and deceptive UI tricks called "dark patterns," but many of the complaints relate to aspects of games we'd consider normal or positive.

Call of Duty, for instance, is criticized for rewarding players with gun and attachment unlocks, which the suit calls "a form of operant conditioning," as well as for featuring "fast-paced play, satisfying graphics, sounds, and other dopamine lifts." Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world" and the suit warns that players with ADHD "can become easily hyper focused and addicted to building worlds." Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."

The game developers say that the complaint uses "ominous" terms like "feedback loop" and "monetization scheme" to justify attacking regular, creative features that make their games more attractive and challenging.

"That Plaintiffs find the expression in games 'too persuasive' and 'catchy'—ie, too entertaining—'does not permit [them] to quiet the speech or to burden its messengers,'" the developers said.

articuno: https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/video-game-addiction-lawsuit-motion-to-dismiss/

This is a complex problem, while dark patterns are real and predatory monetizations are vile, what's the boundary between creating addictive vs. non-addictive games?
also I heard somewhere on the internet some devs hiring some behavioral psychologist to make their gameplay loop more addicting, is that true btw?
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,779
I can't parent and it's because of evil video games!

If your kid is violent at 12+ because you took away their toys, the answer is def not to send them back to the basement to game all day/night.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,646
User warned: drive-by without reading the article in the OP
Experiment for that: remove the monetization and see what's left of the game
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,207
User warned: drive-by without reading the article in the OP
Wow, casinos should've thought of this argument. Compulsive spending and gambling addiction? No, the games are just so fun people can't stop playing!
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,656
Experiment for that: remove the monetization and see what's left of the game
Wow, casinos should've thought of this argument. Compulsive spending and gambling addiction? No, the games are just so fun people can't stop playing!
The lawsuit is about actual gameplay design, e.g Call of Duty having an unlock system for guns, gadgets, etc. You would know if you actually read the quoted article instead of just going off the headline of the thread. :v
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,794
Wow, casinos should've thought of this argument. Compulsive spending and gambling addiction? No, the games are just so fun people can't stop playing!
I read this earlier and they aren't just talking about monetization. They're literally suing because basic design philosophies are engaging.
 

jkk411

Member
Jul 22, 2018
1,030
I think interrogating the addictiveness of a game as it connects to predatory monetization is fair enough, but this is so laughably broad. Essentially all entertainment is designed to draw your attention and keep it there, so what are we even talking about?
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,794
I think interrogating the addictiveness of a game as it connects to predatory monetization is fair enough, but this is so laughably broad. Essentially all entertainment is designed to draw your attention and keep it there, so what are we even talking about?
It's just the panic over videogames from the late 90's, only repackaged to make it acceptable for modern day and those who don't pay enough attention.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,015
I do think actual gaming addiction is something to look into, especially so with how gamified actual gambling is nowadays with all the online casinos. But not sure a lawsuit is going to achieve much, as making something for entertainment purposes too engaging is kinda an oxymoron.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,457
"Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world" and the suit warns that players with ADHD "can become easily hyper focused and addicted to building worlds." Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."

Huh, so they hate multiplayer and side content. Which era user is sueing again?
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,939
Some of those arguments could be used to describe things like sports. This line was hilarious:

Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."

Well, yeah? They're literally complaining that an entertainment product is too entertaining. Why would you buy something that's boring?
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,400
Call of Duty, for instance, is criticized for rewarding players with gun and attachment unlocks, which the suit calls "a form of operant conditioning," as well as for featuring "fast-paced play, satisfying graphics, sounds, and other dopamine lifts." Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world" and the suit warns that players with ADHD "can become easily hyper focused and addicted to building worlds." Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."

So video games are video games, that's the complaint?
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
14,146
I assume all games hit people differently, but there was a crack-like quality to Returnal, Fenyx Rising, Tetris, Lumines, and most recently Balatro to me. I applaud the devs for managing to grab me like they did.
 

Darkmaigle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,540
My son is 11 and obsessed over Roblox. For the first time we had to implement very tough rules about how much we would let him play it, gaming used to be super social for him and his friends but I knew something was up when i didn't even hear him chatting with them online.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,722
These developers will hire researchers with PhDs in psychology and human behavior. I definitely think you can hold companies accountable for knowingly designing a gameplay reward system in such a way.
 

Riot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
171
There's something to be said about loot boxes and all that associated psychology levers that are used to get people to pay money.

However, in this case, it sounds like a parent not parenting. You aren't your child's friend you are a parent. You have to make decisions that they don't like for their own benefit.
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,395
User warned: drive-by without reading the article in the OP
Sue these companies for the predatory microtransactions, not because their games are really fun for people.

And bless the hearts of people who find GTA Online fun.
 

darthbob

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,020
articuno: https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/video-game-addiction-lawsuit-motion-to-dismiss/

This is a complex problem, while dark patterns are real and predatory monetizations are vile, what's the boundary between creating addictive vs. non-addictive games?
also I heard somewhere on the internet some devs hiring some behavioral psychologist to make their gameplay loop more addicting, is that true btw?
It's true. Bungie has gone on record stating that they hired a behavioral psychologist for Destiny.

Source: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022354/User-Research-on
 
OP
OP
jungius

jungius

Member
Sep 5, 2021
2,315
These developers will hire researchers with PhDs in psychology and human behavior. I definitely think you can hold companies accountable for knowingly designing a gameplay reward system in such a way.

so this is real thing in game development? I felt its vile thing to do.... I thought that was something conspiracy
 

Älg

Banned
May 13, 2018
3,178
I'm don't know if the lawsuit has any merit, but the response from the devs/publishers is shit and should be criticized. Like the value function in many modern games is definitely to maximize addiction and spending, not "entertainment". It's frequently discussed topic, but frankly I think it is still underdiscussed. I mean, we basically have entire games that are just interfaces for underage casinos.

On a personal note I recall applying for a job as a designer at King many years ago, and one of the questions was basically (paraphrasing) "How would you make [feature] as addictive a possible".

It's true. Bungie has gone on record stating that they hired a behavioral psychologist for Destiny.

Source: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022354/User-Research-on
so this is real thing in game development? I felt its vile thing to do.... I thought that was something conspiracy
Should be noted that behavioural psychologists often work in UX research roles, and their presence isn't necessarily evidence of manipulation or trying make something more addictive.

Of course in the context of F2P gaming (or really any money making operation, dark patterns are everywhere) it's not far fetched to think that that is what they're doing.
 
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Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,817
tbh games should be investigated for their predatory monetization practices. Lots of ways to hook impressionable minds and obfuscate how much things really cost, and it really shouldnt be that way. For example daily missions dont exist to be fun, they exist to build the habit of opening the game every day.

But like, what is this lawsuit lmao.
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,400
It's true. Bungie has gone on record stating that they hired a behavioral psychologist for Destiny.

Source: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022354/User-Research-on

The thing is, a game like Destiny is designed to be played for thousands of hours. If it doesn't have the gameplay hooks I don't know how that would work. The only solution I could see would be to knock player engagement expectations down to maybe 100, tops.

Disclaimer- I can't imagine playing a game for more than 1-200 hours, and that exceptionally rarely.
 

gardfish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
I don't know that I necessarily have the vocabulary to put this in a way that makes sense, but putting aside the silliness of the "games are too fun" argument, I do think it's worth interrogating how widespread mechanics specifically designed to facilitate addiction are in video games, even outside of monetization schemes.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,015
so this is real thing in game development? I felt its vile thing to do.... I thought that was something conspiracy
It's not something they have kept a secret. It's more in regards to the most effective ways to sell people shit, than how to make a game more engaging, but those lines definitely blur. It's why stuff like FOMO are super common in gaming nowadays, some of which don't even necessarily have microtransactions tied to it.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,156
Yes, some games do abuse psychology to create addicts and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a lawsuit about that. But this is not that lawsuit. Look at this. Seriously, look at it.
Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world"
This is insane.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,117
so this is real thing in game development? I felt its vile thing to do.... I thought that was something conspiracy

it's 100% real. there are some GDC talks as well as other presentations by game devs and research companies who explain how they do studies and apply them to keep people engaged with the games. but this applies to literally most modern games (especially GaaS) to make sure players don't drop it right away.

as for the lawsuits, i can't say i agree with them.
 

Fudgepuppy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,270
so this is real thing in game development? I felt its vile thing to do.... I thought that was something conspiracy

While it does, the flipside of the coin is developers having to think "we need to make this game less rewarding and fun."

I see merits in what they're saying, but certain types of games and gameplay loops are just very fun to play for longer periods of time. As a gameplay designer, you don't want to design your game with the intent of wanting the players to stop because it's getting stale. That's like someone writing a TV-show or book with the intent of not finishing it or not feeling like reading more than three pages at a time.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,047
There's a real issue, but this lawsuit sounds poorly thought out and will end up creating strong precedent that may bar actual legit claims.

We know that loot box design involved getting actual psychologists involved, and I recall those GDC sessions about how to hook whales to ensure your game's financial viability. There certainly could be potentially interesting questions here (I speak as someone with both law and psych degrees). But mixing this in with "this game has too much good content" just makes it easy to ignore, and the "throw out everything and see what sticks" approach could misfire badly.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,817
While it does, the flipside of the coin is developers having to think "we need to make this game less rewarding and fun."

I see merits in what they're saying, but certain types of games and gameplay loops are just very fun to play for longer periods of time. As a gameplay designer, you don't want to design your game with the intent of wanting the players to stop because it's getting stale. That's like someone writing a TV-show or book with the intent of not finishing it or not feeling like reading more than three pages at a time.
Yeah. But that makes what the company behind Roblox is saying a bit more sinister. They know obfuscating the line between game design and psychological addiction is easy and for their benefit, and they are prob doing so in bad faith. This is the company that entices kids for their free labor after all.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,789
I feel like that thread title really does a disservice to what the suit is actually arguing. Cause I read that title and rolled my eyes but then read the quotes and can't help but agree with them.
 

Keziaka6591

Member
Jan 31, 2023
534
My son is 11 and obsessed over Roblox. For the first time we had to implement very tough rules about how much we would let him play it, gaming used to be super social for him and his friends but I knew something was up when i didn't even hear him chatting with them online.

Which hey good on you for being an active parent in your kids life and doing something about it. Too many parents let their child control the habit instead of the other way around, and then we get stuff like this ridiculous suit lol.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,457
I feel like that thread title really does a disservice to what the suit is actually arguing. Cause I read that title and rolled my eyes but then read the quotes and can't help but agree with them.

...you agree with:
Call of Duty, for instance, is criticized for rewarding players with gun and attachment unlocks, which the suit calls "a form of operant conditioning," as well as for featuring "fast-paced play, satisfying graphics, sounds, and other dopamine lifts
and
Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world" and the suit warns that players with ADHD "can become easily hyper focused and addicted to building worlds."
and
Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."
?

Or basically "games cant offer rewards, have multiplayer or offer good content because its addicting"?

Do you also think its fair to sue the music industry for bands playing instruments too well or making music too catchy? Hollywood for making sequel baits and cliffhangers?
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,817
Which hey good on you for being an active parent in your kids life and doing something about it. Too many parents let their child control the habit instead of the other way around, and then we get stuff like this ridiculous suit lol.
Kids couldnt access adicting shit like this with impunity even without active parents in ye olden days (I think, I was born after the internet). Like... we gotta recognize that there are easily accesible products designed to addict kids now.
 

EvaUnit787

Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,255
These developers will hire researchers with PhDs in psychology and human behavior. I definitely think you can hold companies accountable for knowingly designing a gameplay reward system in such a way.
I understand we care more about video games, but every other form of entertainment and many other companies do the same. I know with movies and TV shows they do similar things. Even tech companies and businesses want to hire expert that can help them cater to the right market. At the end of it all, even for the PHD experts, it is about a demand that exists they can get money from

Now I would love for this to change, but how can you hold so many industries and companies accountable on something that is utlimately about money, the number 1 thing in this country?
 

DevilPuncher

Aggressively Mediocre
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,715
I do think there may be something here—granted, I'm not sure this case will be the one to crack anything open—but, like, how do you address it? Practically every game under the sun has some sort of progression system nowadays.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,262
The behavioral psychologists they hire to design systems are just there for show too, I'm sure. Those layers and layers of engagement systems are literally designed to keep you hooked. I think that should've been the focus, along with things like the unregulated gambling industry supported by the Steam marketplace and games like CS2.
 
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julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,789
...you agree with:
Call of Duty, for instance, is criticized for rewarding players with gun and attachment unlocks, which the suit calls "a form of operant conditioning," as well as for featuring "fast-paced play, satisfying graphics, sounds, and other dopamine lifts
and
Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world" and the suit warns that players with ADHD "can become easily hyper focused and addicted to building worlds."
and
Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."
?

Or basically "games cant offer rewards, have multiplayer or offer good content because its addicting"?

Do you also think its fair to sue the music industry for bands playing instruments too well or making music too catchy? Hollywood for making sequel baits and cliffhangers?
You completely misread my post. I realize I wasn't clear I meant the game companies' said. Not the ones writing the crazy sounding suit. But the quote in the title is from the gaming side - which is what I was talking about.
 

talkingood

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,126
Do you also think its fair to sue the music industry for bands playing instruments too well or making music too catchy? Hollywood for making sequel baits and cliffhangers?
These things are not remotely equivalent. Other forms of media do not adapt to your input in a nearly-infinite dopamine feedback loop.

I don't think this lawsuit is particularly well founded either, but I think some of the arguments are worth considering.
 

MoonlitSeer

Member
Jun 9, 2023
880
I really don't like them trying to weaponize ADHD here. That's some infantalizing bullshit, as if we have no choice but to become hoplessly addicted. The reality is that any game has the potential to cause that hyperfocus state, because games are engaging in general. Can we be more vulnerable? Yes, that's why it's a disability. However, that's for us to call out on our own terms.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
This is a complex problem, while dark patterns are real and predatory monetizations are vile, what's the boundary between creating addictive vs. non-addictive games?

I don't think the difference ultimately lies in the games themselves but rather in the people who play them.

Because game's aspects are exactly like gambling now, and because that hasn't been outlawed in most places on Earth, then it comes down to whether or not you're the type of person who has a problem with gambling.

It's awful and I hate seeing my favorite medium do this to people but there's likely no legal solution incoming.
 

Bengraven

Member
Oct 26, 2017
26,893
Florida
Many people are just going to assume they're attacking things like gacha, but they're calling out unlocking features and cosmetics as well.

As the OP said: "what's the boundary between creating addictive vs. non-addictive games?"

You can't MAKE a game be addictive. Addictive is when the audience finds value in your product. It's like when a co-worker of mine was going to put their website up and was like "we're planning what day we'll make it blow up and go viral" like it's a feature you pay extra for.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,262
You can't MAKE a game be addictive. Addictive is when the audience finds value in your product.

There are definite and measurable mechanisms that games can employ/exploit to make a game more addictive or difficult to quit like near-miss effects, low probability jackpots, seeing other people's "winnings", FOMO, timed events and login streaks, etc. It's not a guaranteed to make you addicted or make a game a hit, but these tactics are insidious nonetheless.
 
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thethickofit

Member
Feb 1, 2018
560
You can't MAKE a game be addictive. Addictive is when the audience finds value in your product.

This is flatly untrue. Facebook and Instagram were deliberately made addictive to maximize user engagement.

As humans we don't have control over what we find addictive. We're all, you and I included, driven by our subconscious processes. It's completely right to question whether a particular product is too addictive in a way that's bad for society.

It's like when a co-worker of mine was going to put their website up and was like "we're planning what day we'll make it blow up and go viral" like it's a feature you pay extra for.
No, it's not like that at all? What is the harm to society from people planning to make a website go viral?
 

Bengraven

Member
Oct 26, 2017
26,893
Florida
There are definite and measurable mechanisms that games can employ or exploit to make a game more addictive or difficult to quit like near-miss effects, low probability jackpots, seeing other people's "winnings", FOMO, timed events and login streaks, etc. It's not a guaranteed to make you addicted or make a game a hit, but these things can be insidious nonetheless.

Again. Some of the responses in this thread think this is all about live service games.

The reason I'm posting in this thread at all is because the article in the OP can mean that not only live service games but even offline or single player games are being called out. They specifically mention things like Minecraft.

"The complaint says that the game developers are liable for defective and negligent designs that "take advantage of the chemical reward system of a user's brain (especially a minor) to create addictive engagement, compulsive use, and additional mental and physical harm," as well as failure to warn users of the risk of addiction."

"which the suit calls "a form of operant conditioning," as well as for featuring "fast-paced play, satisfying graphics, sounds, and other dopamine lifts." Minecraft's multiplayer features are said to "addict players to connecting with others in the Minecraft world" and the suit warns that players with ADHD "can become easily hyper focused and addicted to building worlds." Grand Theft Auto 5, the suit says, "includes endless arrays of activities and challenges to continually engage users and ensure they are never bored."


People need to read the OP. They're not just going after Era's favorite punching bag. This is ALL games.

This is flatly untrue. Facebook and Instagram were deliberately made addictive to maximize user engagement.

As humans we don't have control over what we find addictive. We're all, you and I included, driven by our subconscious processes. It's completely right to question whether a particular product is too addictive in a way that's bad for society.

My point was that games by their nature have the potential for addiction. Even single player games like SMB1 or Skyrim. For the same reasons you pointed out - the mini-rewards and dopamine hits from something as simple as a coin jingling. My argument was that this suit is attacking all games. Of course live service games are the worse at it, making things like FOMO and gambling into their nature, but the article is talking about games in general.

No, it's not like that at all? What is the harm to society from people planning to make a website go viral?

It's just a silly anecdote because people can't make a game and assume it's going to be addictive. There's tons of games that try and be addictive and fall flat. Look at all the failed live service games that their developers thought would the next best thing.

Again, you're kind of focused more on the "this is damaging to society" angle, but by the article's rationale, all games are dangerous for society.
 
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Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,815
Brazil
Most recreative drugs are made illegal for being "too entertaining" 🤷‍♂️

I feel like single player games, having set finishes, are entirely another beast in comparison to online competitive stuff, or gacha, or whatever. People need to atleast figure out that the psychological effect in any of those are completely different. It can't be just labeled as video games addiction.

Not that you can't feel addicted to single player games, but they clearly work differently.
 
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Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,735
I mean, when you design a game specifically for the purposes of encouraging "engagement" for as long as humanly possible... yeah, these sorts of things can happen. That's a potential problem with any "endless" game that can be played indefinitely, with always the possibility of more reward for continuing to play. Haven't we even heard Activision or EA say something to the effect of "we want this to be the only game people play for the next X years"? How can you make a statement like that if you're not designing the game to be "addictive"? And then when someone who comes along with potential addictive tendencies? It's a recipe for disaster.

It's one of the reasons I don't play MMOs, or really any online games, anymore. I just kept going and going, and eventually realized I wasn't actually getting anything out of it.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,262
Again. Some of the responses in this thread think this is all about live service games.

Sure, and I read the article, but that doesn't make it so games cannot be designed with explicitly addictive mechanics, which was the part I highlighted from your post. That's all. I agree that the suit casts far too wide a net for it to have any sort of effect.