YouTuber HM: “Microsoft’s Preservation Problems”

[AHA-Lambda]

I can't say I've heard of this guy before looks like he covers a lot of Japanese stuff specifically, but it's a really good and comprehensive summary of everything that's been talked about up until this point on the online necessities of the series x and the preservation concerns that come from that



Touches on a lot including:

-XB1 games need an online connection to install from disc due to downloading config files, which doesn't happen on XB1
-Smart delivery titles also require an online connection
-BC OG Xbox and 360 games too due to the nature of the BC solution
-Dedicated Series X only discs (e.g. Judgment, DMC 5 SE) do exist but are very rare
-That we are now seeing incomplete builds on disc like Halo and Forza H5
-Digs into the Home mode of the Series X and emulation on the system too

Also covers how PlayStation in comparison doesn't do this, plus the efforts from the community to document this information as MS doesn't make it clear but the harassment that then stopped that effort

Lock if old

 

[jsnepo]

I really like that Microsoft pursued backward compatibility but never liked their approach requiring downloads for OG and 360 games. I understand that for X1, it is needed. The Series, however, should be able to run those gamss natively already.

 

[Linus815]

I really like that Microsoft pursued backward compatibility but never liked their approach requiring downloads for OG and 360 games. I understand that for X1, it is needed. The Series, however, should be able to run those gamss natively already.

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The X1 and XSX/S uses basically identical architecture. The stuff that gets downloaded is literally customized emulators for each game. Not sure why thorwing more power would magically make each game run "natively".

 

[vixolus]

I really like that Microsoft pursued backward compatibility but never liked their approach requiring downloads for OG and 360 games. I understand that for X1, it is needed. The Series, however, should be able to run those gamss natively already.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Why would Series be able to run it natively? It's an evolution of the One and requires the same solution. The old consoles were different architectures getting them to run natively doesn't sound simple or cheap.

 

[Kingpin722]

There physical practices, combined with Gamepass really makes it seem like they want out of making Physical games and hardware as soon as Gamepass allows.

 

[Dyle]

How could smart delivery possibly work without an internet connection?

 

[vixolus]

How could smart delivery possibly work without an internet connection?

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Only by having the xbox one, one x, and series x stuff all on one disc (which is probably impossible given the size of games now) or having multiple discs inside a case (which is costlier so prob not happening)

 

[BackwoodsAltar]

How could smart delivery possibly work without an internet connection?

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gonna take genius delivery until we get there huh

 

[Iron Eddie]

There physical practices, combined with Gamepass really makes it seem like they want out of making Physical games and hardware as soon as Gamepass allows.

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...or maybe consumers are adopting digital faster than you want them to? We are also seeing this happen on other platforms.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

How could smart delivery possibly work without an internet connection?

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Tales of Arise I believe did it but required 2 discs

 

[Charpunk]

Tales of Arise I believe did it but required 2 discs

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That game didn't use smart delivery though. They gave you both skus.

 

[russbus64]

Also covers how PlayStation in comparison doesn't do this

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Gotta raise an eyebrow at this when it comes to incomplete games on physical media. This is common practice now on all platforms and likely will get worse. It's why I've moved on from physical media as it's now just glorified physical DRM for a number of titles.

I think MVG covered something similar previously with an initial online check for BC titles. Once the game was run once, it could be run offline. Hardly ideal and I think MS should look into adjusting this behavior (why not integrate this check into the initial download, for instance?).

 

[AHA-Lambda]

That game didn't use smart delivery though. They gave you both skus.

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Yeah that was basically my point, only way to do it without an internet connection I would imagine
Else you go down the Sony route of dedicated SKUs

 

[Gunny T Highway]

There physical practices, combined with Gamepass really makes it seem like they want out of making Physical games and hardware as soon as Gamepass allows.

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Hate to tell you, but the general trend across all gaming platforms has been moving towards digital for years now. Covid accelerated it even faster.

 

[gothi]

Either the person in the video doesn't understand how home mode works or is manufacturing drama for his video.

They claim they can't play games on their Xbox One because it's not their home console and they have to keep swapping which one of their devices is designated as the home console and will run out of swaps.
The reality is they just need an internet connection on whichever console isn't set as their home console. That's it. Nothing more. No swaps needed.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Gotta raise an eyebrow at this when it comes to incomplete games on physical media. This is common practice now on all platforms and likely will get worse. It's why I've moved on from physical media as it's now just glorified physical DRM for a number of titles.

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This is brought up all the time on these kinds of threads and it's simply not true.
While patching is common, few games have disc releases that require essential day one patches to provide a playable experience.
DoesItPlay had some stats on this I'll try dig it out.
For example I can put my disc copy of guardians of the galaxy in my ps5, never put it online once, and that game will still run fine.


But point of the vid stands, ps5 let's you complete installs from discs when offline, series x doesn't with rare exceptions

EDIT: found it

 

[Dancrane212]

It's a bummer for sure, but with how easy it is to duplicate data between Xbox consoles I do feel there are options to address some of those cases.

Smart delivery titles also require an online connection

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Not all of them, there are some titles like Demon Turf that have all builds of the game on the disc for an offline install regardless of Xbox. It comes down to the size of the game and publisher intent.

 

[blaze]

There physical practices, combined with Gamepass really makes it seem like they want out of making Physical games and hardware as soon as Gamepass allows.

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Physical games are on the decline across all consoles, with the increase of online digital purchasing and consoles being hugely reliant on online to be functional we're not far from consoles themselves going down the path Microsoft were trying a few years ago in being fully digital (digital only consoles are just a prelude to that being the only option in the future).

 

[Nax]

I'm more bothered by GaaS stuff across the board. Literally no way to preserve this stuff. When an event happens in Sea of Thieves or Genshin, that's it. Have Anthem servers been shut down yet? I have to imagine that will be happening somewhat soon if it hasn't already.

 

[TaterTots]

I'm not surprised by any of the points. Digital is growing a lot faster than some anticipated. Years from now, people wont blink an eye at this stuff.

 

[Prine]

I really like that Microsoft pursued backward compatibility but never liked their approach requiring downloads for OG and 360 games. I understand that for X1, it is needed. The Series, however, should be able to run those gamss natively already.

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It does run them natively, and downloads the software/container to run them, each independently tweaked for the game. It allows these games to be used on any system MS makes moving forward without all the complications and cost of literally building the old hardware into their machines. It's a trade-off but one that seems necessary (and ok).

 

[kubev]

There'll always be a compromise. I prefer Microsoft's approach of requiring an Internet connection initially so you get the best possible experience with that game for the hardware it's on. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't want to play what's on a disc; I want to play the best version of the game. Frankly, of the big three, I trust Microsoft the most with this solution, as Microsoft's the only one of the three that hasn't tried shutting a lot of that older stuff down. Microsoft's approach, in fact, encourages Microsoft to keep all of that old stuff going and available.

 

[Dancrane212]

I'm more bothered by GaaS stuff across the board. Literally no way to preserve this stuff. When an event happens in Sea of Thieves or Genshin, that's it. Have Anthem servers been shut down yet? I have to imagine that will be happening somewhat soon if it hasn't already.

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Yeah, same. On Xbox I like to, in cases where a game gets a notable update, copy the original content to a backup drive to keep that existing experience accessible. There's no such option with those service games.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I'm not surprised by any of the points. Digital is growing a lot faster than some anticipated. Years from now, people wont blink an eye at this stuff.

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until stores get shut down like what's just been announced with nintendo

Not all of them, there are some titles like Demon Turf that have all builds of the game on the disc for an offline install regardless of Xbox. It comes down to the size of the game and publisher intent.

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Thanks, I wasn't aware of this, but I think sadly shows just how fragmented it all this :(

 

[Gay Bowser]

It's a little odd to me to single Microsoft out for problems with game preservation, when tons of Xbox and Xbox 360 games play on their current consoles and you can't say that about Gamecube/Wii games on Switch and PS2/PS3 games on PS5. 🧐 Like, yes, you need an internet connection, but you can't play those discs on other consoles at all, so...

 

[Lashley]

Game preservation seems pretty shit across the board, tbh

 

[ghostcrew]

It's a little odd to me to single Microsoft out for problems with game preservation, when tons of Xbox and Xbox 360 games play on their current consoles and you can't say that about Gamecube/Wii games on Switch and PS2/PS3 games on PS5. 🧐 Like, yes, you need an internet connection, but you can't play those discs on other consoles at all, so...

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Irony being that you can actually play your PS2 and GameCube games on your Series X/S 😅

 

[9wilds]

I think the problem is that the vast, vast majority of people do not care about this. They don't plan to need to play these games decades in the future. I know I don't. Technology will undoubtedly make these games so dated they're mostly unplayable. Some of them already are.

 

[Karateka]

It's a little odd to me to single Microsoft out for problems with game preservation, when tons of Xbox and Xbox 360 games play on their current consoles and you can't say that about Gamecube/Wii games on Switch and PS2/PS3 games on PS5. 🧐 Like, yes, you need an internet connection, but you can't play those discs on other consoles at all, so...

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Every game you can play on a console should be able to run-on that console no matter what even without internet! Requiring internet is worse than not having the option to play the game at all!!!

/s

 

[Kyry]

This was an issue in game preservation circles until:

A: Gamepass made most people consider titles more of a temporary/subscription thing
B: Microsoft embracing the PC for most releases and the death of the Xbox exclusive content.

 

[HonestAbe]

I'm more bothered by GaaS stuff across the board. Literally no way to preserve this stuff. When an event happens in Sea of Thieves or Genshin, that's it. Have Anthem servers been shut down yet? I have to imagine that will be happening somewhat soon if it hasn't already.

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SoT events stay (with one or two exceptions like the new stories). Also, anything earnable in the season pass comes to game later but locked behind commendation/tasks.

 

[Nax]

SoT events stay (with one or two exceptions like the new stories). Also, anything earnable in the season pass comes to game later but locked behind commendation/tasks.

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Oh, good to know. I know Arena is going away entirely. But that was all MP stuff anyways. Maybe Destiny is a better example where they put stuff away in a "vault" now.

 

[Frieza]

I prefer MS's preservation method. I bought Metal Gear Rising for instance on my Series X a few months back after randomly wanting to try it out which is something I can't do on my PS4, I'm pretty confident my library will continue to carry forward into future generations as I'm 100% digital anyways and MS has been really good about backward compatibility.

 

[CheapJi]

Every online platform that requires too much online verifications is sketchy as hell in my mind but in microsofts case, they have so much money that they will never die or kill off their servers because that would require more money at this point.

 

[jsnepo]

The X1 and XSX/S uses basically identical architecture. The stuff that gets downloaded is literally customized emulators for each game. Not sure why thorwing more power would magically make each game run "natively".

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I mean a system wide emulator that plays those games natively from the disc, no downloads needed. The Series should be powerful enough to do that, right? I mean they don't have to have to put enhancements for as long compatibility is high. Maybe begin with high compatibility then start working on enhancing specific games.

 

[BaconHat]

It's a little odd to me to single Microsoft out for problems with game preservation, when tons of Xbox and Xbox 360 games play on their current consoles and you can't say that about Gamecube/Wii games on Switch and PS2/PS3 games on PS5. 🧐 Like, yes, you need an internet connection, but you can't play those discs on other consoles at all, so...

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I mean, we already get lots of coverage from lots of sources for the other big two, its not that odd that a few ppl go instead to talk about the limitations of the last one, since there's less ppl already talking about it.

 

[Fafalada]

I'm not sure what you mean. Why would Series be able to run it natively?

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He means working out of the box, without requiring to fetch anything online. Which they could totally do (Even before Series) but BC discs not 'just working' offline is part of their DRM chain, removing it doesn't serve any purpose MS wants.

 

[TheYanger]

I really like that Microsoft pursued backward compatibility but never liked their approach requiring downloads for OG and 360 games. I understand that for X1, it is needed. The Series, however, should be able to run those gamss natively already.

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Ah yes, the one issue with the approach, as opposed to (checks notes) not investing in backwards compatibility at all.

Seriously though, the reason they do the downloadable version isn't because they want to, it's a real necessity due to the architecture differences.

 

[jsnepo]

Ah yes, the one issue with the approach, as opposed to (checks notes) not investing in backwards compatibility at all.

Seriously though, the reason they do the downloadable version isn't because they want to, it's a real necessity due to the architecture differences.

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Thank you for rephrasing my post.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Here are two posts from an Xbox dev OscarK that explain what is going on here. From the last time this was brought up in this forum. It's not DRM.

Modern Vintage Gamer: The Xbox Series X has a big DRM problem

Digital rights management (DRM) refers to the technical controls used by copyright owners of digital content to identify, track and protect their content. Digital rights management | Legal Guidance | LexisNexis Whereas I don't believe this situation hasn't occurred because Microsoft want to...

www.resetera.com

Post in thread 'Modern Vintage Gamer: The Xbox Series X has a big DRM problem'
https://www.resetera.com/threads/mo...-x-has-a-big-drm-problem.430607/post-65736179

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Here are two posts from an Xbox dev OscarK that explain what is going on here. From the last time this was brought up in this forum.

Modern Vintage Gamer: The Xbox Series X has a big DRM problem

Digital rights management (DRM) refers to the technical controls used by copyright owners of digital content to identify, track and protect their content. Digital rights management | Legal Guidance | LexisNexis Whereas I don't believe this situation hasn't occurred because Microsoft want to...

www.resetera.com

Post in thread 'Modern Vintage Gamer: The Xbox Series X has a big DRM problem'
https://www.resetera.com/threads/mo...-x-has-a-big-drm-problem.430607/post-65736179

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Yeah I remember this now, but for as much as it explains the issue and provides insight, it nevertheless remains an issue

 

[kimbo99]

Not the best way of preservation but better than its competitors for sure. Ultimately we should all be aware of the caveats of an all digital future.

 

[Fafalada]

Seriously though, the reason they do the downloadable version isn't because they want to, it's a real necessity due to the architecture differences.

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Not really - there are conveniences to current system (single SKU compatibility instead of Disc + whatever's been hosted on XBL), and slotting neatly with the DRM. They could decouple the two - but there's no real incentive, even as a user-benefit it's highly debatable (allowing people to access the original disc-shipped version is often downgraded experience to what was the end-state), and in the world of GP - preservation offline isn't actually a thing anymore.

This is common practice now on all platforms and likely will get worse.

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It's really not. I've been on the receiving end of this with Sony, and the argument that we successfully employed with another platform holder (buying time with a day-0 patch) did not fly. The disc version had to be complete from cert and other quality perspective, regardless of what else we were fixing after launch.

 

[Trup1aya]

I don't understand why needing an internet connect to install BC games is considered a "preservation issue", especially when I look at the availability of the internet compared to the availability of BC on other consoles.

 

[UraMallas]

I guess the question is "do I want the problems of backwards compatibility and cross-gen game save/delivery solved?"

If you want those things, you need a solution, and that is always going to require the internet. Xbox provides that type of solution.

If you want to be able to play your physical games without the internet, you are not going to get that from Xbox ecosystem simply because they are trying to solve things that require internet checks.

If you need that you can buy the past Playstation/Nintendo (EDIT: And Xbox!) consoles and play the games there and you can keep your discs offline.

You can't have both. At least not with current tech.

 

[ghostcrew]

I don't understand why needing an internet connect to install BC games is considered a "preservation issue", especially when I look at the availability of the internet compared to the availability of BC on other consoles.

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It's not a preservation issue. If Xbox turned off their servers tomorrow or force updated everyone's Series X to remove the BC capabilities those games would all still be completely playable on their original hardware - the OG Xbox, 360 and Xbox One - without needing the Internet.

Them working on hardware that was never supposed to play them isn't really preserving them anymore than they already are preserved, it's just making more easily available in 2022.

If they stopped 360s and Xbox One consoles from being able to buy and play these games then that would be a problem. But as long as they can all still run them without Internet checks then we're good. Series X BC is just a bonus and, I think from where most are sitting, the constantly updated and constantly improved BC solution on Xbox consoles have had far more pros than cons.

 

[Dr.Osiris]

The X1 and XSX/S uses basically identical architecture. The stuff that gets downloaded is literally customized emulators for each game. Not sure why thorwing more power would magically make each game run "natively".

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Agree 100%.

 

[UraMallas]

Xbox: "Hey, we did this cool thing and you can play a lot of old games you bought 10+ years ago on the Series X. Your saves work, too."

"AH HA, but now I'm entitled to all these games working offline without any checks. Xbox, you need to change everything you did to get to this point so that your system magically works without internet checks. Really bad preservation problem for these games that were never supposed to be playable 10+ years later on current consoles in the first place."

 

[litebrite]

Xbox: "Hey, we did this cool thing and you can play a lot of old games you bought 10+ years ago on the Series X. Your saves work, too."

"AH HA, but now I'm entitled to all these games working offline without any checks. Xbox, you need to change everything you did to get to this point so that your system magically works without internet checks. Really bad preservation problem for these games that were never supposed to be playable 10+ years later on current consoles in the first place."

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😆

 

[Trup1aya]

It's not a preservation issue. If Xbox turned off their servers tomorrow or force updated everyone's Series X to remove the BC capabilities those games would all still be completely playable on their original hardware - the OG Xbox, 360 and Xbox One - without needing the Internet.

Them working on hardware that was never supposed to play them isn't really preserving them anymore than they already are preserved, it's just making more easily available in 2022.

If they stopped 360s and Xbox One consoles from being able to buy and play these games then that would be a problem. But as long as they can all still run them without Internet checks then we're good. Series X BC is just a bonus.

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Right it's not a preservation issue… it's an doomsday access "issue" that shows no signs of actually presenting a problem for people who want to play old games on Xbox, and happens to be a more convenient solution that Xbox's closest competitors.