valve buying exclusives would send everyone defending epic's deals into a frothing rage
and as amusing as that would be i still don't want to see it happen
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Ys net has heard the concerns regarding Epic Games Store exclusivity for Shenmue III and will assess the situation [Read Staff Post Before Posting]
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and as amusing as that would be i still don't want to see it happen
I do wonder how many people are going to take advantage of a (potential) refund as an opportunity to get their money back because they had a different perception of what the game would be (i.e. AAA) in light of the gameplay and trailers. It'd be the complete opposite of the point of Kickstarter, but you just know people are going to use the EGS fiasco to get their money back for the wrong reasons.
Part of me hopes they can fulfill a Steam key at launch for backers so that refunds don't need to be offered (except for in extreme circumstances).
Part of me hopes they can fulfill a Steam key at launch for backers so that refunds don't need to be offered (except for in extreme circumstances).
Moving this post to the top of the page. I don't normally do this and think it's usually poor form, but considering these threads are always full of disingenuous "what's the big deal???" posts, the least that I can do is make sure that this is front and center. You don't have an excuse to be uninformed.
I'm going to quote this post by Krejlooc because I am sick of hearing the same shit over and over again.
----------------------------------------
Firstly, understand that when people talk about steam, and the epic game store, they're actually talking about two different things at the exact same time. It's confusing to people who don't intimately understand technology, but these things, launchers are some call them, are a combination of store front, and technology suite. I'm sure you've heard of things like OpenGL or DirectX, those are technologies that help make games, specifically those technologies are middlewares that drive graphics cards. They make up a standard language so a game developer can target a "virtual" openGL or directX card, and the people behind OpenGL and DirectX (Khronos and Microsoft) then take care of making their "virtual" card work with physical cards. So from the perspective of a developer, you write for one "virtual" card, and the makers of that "virtual" card spend lots of money making it work with lots of real, physical cards. This is called interfacing.
Steam, the client, has a store bundled with it, but it is also a suite of tools. Steam, the client, can be thought of like DirectX, it does lots and lots of things beyond merely selling you the game. For example, there is this thing called Steam Proton which is an automatic translation layer for linux. With steam proton, you can run any windows game in linux, something thought absolutely impossible years ago. Steam is brimming with technologies like this, like Steam Input, which is how things like Dual Shock Controllers work.
You don't have to buy from Steam, the store, to use Steam, the client's tools. When you buy a game from, like, amazon, the sale goes entirely through amazon, and valve doesn't take 30% because they didn't actually facilitate the sale. But when you buy that game from amazon, or target.com, or where ever, they give you a special "installer" that you can pop into the steam client, and it'll use all the steam client features.
The Epic Games Store is, like the steam client, both a store and a suite of tools. But as a suite of tools, it's anemic. Not a fraction of what steam, the client, does. But worse than that, Epic is relying on people's confusion and inability to understand the difference between a store front and a suite of tools to muddy the picture. Were, for example, Epic Game Store just selling Steam Client installers, like Uplay does, nobody would have a fucking problem at all. But they don't. Instead, when something is "epic store exclusive," that means epic paid to both keep the game off of Valve's technology suite, AND keep it off of every other store besides their own. When something uses steam's technology, they are NOT exclusive to steam, the store. But people who don't know the difference think everything using steam's technology is the same as being exclusive to steam, the store.
By making things exclusive to epic games store, not only are they limiting the number of places where a buyer can purchase from (which has the demonstrable effect of raising game prices), it also cuts features from certain games by keeping them from using steam technologies.
In short, when things go "Epic games store" exclusive, they are limiting the places one can buy from, limiting the feature set of said, usually raising the price of said game, for absolutely no benefit to the consumer at all.
And, as an indie developer, Epic itself creates this division between games it allows onto the store, and games it does not. For games that are not allowed onto the store, it creates an unfair stigma, like those games are somehow lesser games, that actually hurts bottom lines. I don't want to use a specific example by name, because the specific dev got harassed when they made this known, but there was a well known, well reviewed game on steam that got denied a spot on epic game store, and after it got denied, the narrative on twitter turned into "something must clearly be wrong with the game if it got denied a spot on the store" and their sales actually slumped. One of the best features of steam, the store, from the perspective of small developers, is that it puts everyone on equal footing. A dude in bedroom can make a game and it's sold right alongside games made by 1000 person studios with million dollar budgets as though they were equals. EGS creates a division of haves vs have nots that hurt small developers.
EGS is bad for PC gaming all around.
--------------------------------------------------
Personally, I don't use that many Steam-specific features. I can fuck around with less-than-user-friendly 3rd party apps like x360ce to get my more obscure controllers to function properly if I have to, but Steam's built-in options for that certainly make it easier. I don't game that much on my work laptop, but cloud saves do make that more appealing and hassle-free. I don't spend a lot of time on Steam community forums, but they're a good first place to check if I need to do a little research for bugfixes. I don't bother with mods that often, but Steamworks often makes that whole facet of PC gaming a lot more straightforward than it normally is (and, as it would happen, has facilitated the release of a couple Sega Genesis ROMhacks that I made years ago in a fashion that is actually sanctioned by Sega itself).
None of those features on their own are deal-breakers. But they're pretty significant value-adds that I do appreciate. Built-in Linux support in particular isn't something that I use personally, but it's huge on its own. To have all of that dismissed under the banner of "iTs JuSt AnOtHeR lAuNcHeR" is infuriating, and we're tired of explaining this over and over and over and over again.
And for Shenmue specifically, I'm infuriated that I'm being treated like a product to be sold to Epic, instead of the consumer/backer I signed up to this mess as. EGS didn't exist in 2015 when I made my pledge, and it didn't exist in 2018 when I posed this question to Ys, either:
Needless to say, I have no confidence that they'll make good on their words.
I backed this game for $300. Krejlooc, who I quoted above, backed it for $500. Neither one of us intend to keep our copies at this point. I have switched my selected platform to PS4 and intend to sell or give it away solely to undercut one new sale of the game from the publisher. I don't appreciate being used like this, and I am going to respond in kind.
I'm going to quote this post by Krejlooc because I am sick of hearing the same shit over and over again.
----------------------------------------
Firstly, understand that when people talk about steam, and the epic game store, they're actually talking about two different things at the exact same time. It's confusing to people who don't intimately understand technology, but these things, launchers are some call them, are a combination of store front, and technology suite. I'm sure you've heard of things like OpenGL or DirectX, those are technologies that help make games, specifically those technologies are middlewares that drive graphics cards. They make up a standard language so a game developer can target a "virtual" openGL or directX card, and the people behind OpenGL and DirectX (Khronos and Microsoft) then take care of making their "virtual" card work with physical cards. So from the perspective of a developer, you write for one "virtual" card, and the makers of that "virtual" card spend lots of money making it work with lots of real, physical cards. This is called interfacing.
Steam, the client, has a store bundled with it, but it is also a suite of tools. Steam, the client, can be thought of like DirectX, it does lots and lots of things beyond merely selling you the game. For example, there is this thing called Steam Proton which is an automatic translation layer for linux. With steam proton, you can run any windows game in linux, something thought absolutely impossible years ago. Steam is brimming with technologies like this, like Steam Input, which is how things like Dual Shock Controllers work.
You don't have to buy from Steam, the store, to use Steam, the client's tools. When you buy a game from, like, amazon, the sale goes entirely through amazon, and valve doesn't take 30% because they didn't actually facilitate the sale. But when you buy that game from amazon, or target.com, or where ever, they give you a special "installer" that you can pop into the steam client, and it'll use all the steam client features.
The Epic Games Store is, like the steam client, both a store and a suite of tools. But as a suite of tools, it's anemic. Not a fraction of what steam, the client, does. But worse than that, Epic is relying on people's confusion and inability to understand the difference between a store front and a suite of tools to muddy the picture. Were, for example, Epic Game Store just selling Steam Client installers, like Uplay does, nobody would have a fucking problem at all. But they don't. Instead, when something is "epic store exclusive," that means epic paid to both keep the game off of Valve's technology suite, AND keep it off of every other store besides their own. When something uses steam's technology, they are NOT exclusive to steam, the store. But people who don't know the difference think everything using steam's technology is the same as being exclusive to steam, the store.
By making things exclusive to epic games store, not only are they limiting the number of places where a buyer can purchase from (which has the demonstrable effect of raising game prices), it also cuts features from certain games by keeping them from using steam technologies.
In short, when things go "Epic games store" exclusive, they are limiting the places one can buy from, limiting the feature set of said, usually raising the price of said game, for absolutely no benefit to the consumer at all.
And, as an indie developer, Epic itself creates this division between games it allows onto the store, and games it does not. For games that are not allowed onto the store, it creates an unfair stigma, like those games are somehow lesser games, that actually hurts bottom lines. I don't want to use a specific example by name, because the specific dev got harassed when they made this known, but there was a well known, well reviewed game on steam that got denied a spot on epic game store, and after it got denied, the narrative on twitter turned into "something must clearly be wrong with the game if it got denied a spot on the store" and their sales actually slumped. One of the best features of steam, the store, from the perspective of small developers, is that it puts everyone on equal footing. A dude in bedroom can make a game and it's sold right alongside games made by 1000 person studios with million dollar budgets as though they were equals. EGS creates a division of haves vs have nots that hurt small developers.
EGS is bad for PC gaming all around.
--------------------------------------------------
Personally, I don't use that many Steam-specific features. I can fuck around with less-than-user-friendly 3rd party apps like x360ce to get my more obscure controllers to function properly if I have to, but Steam's built-in options for that certainly make it easier. I don't game that much on my work laptop, but cloud saves do make that more appealing and hassle-free. I don't spend a lot of time on Steam community forums, but they're a good first place to check if I need to do a little research for bugfixes. I don't bother with mods that often, but Steamworks often makes that whole facet of PC gaming a lot more straightforward than it normally is (and, as it would happen, has facilitated the release of a couple Sega Genesis ROMhacks that I made years ago in a fashion that is actually sanctioned by Sega itself).
None of those features on their own are deal-breakers. But they're pretty significant value-adds that I do appreciate. Built-in Linux support in particular isn't something that I use personally, but it's huge on its own. To have all of that dismissed under the banner of "iTs JuSt AnOtHeR lAuNcHeR" is infuriating, and we're tired of explaining this over and over and over and over again.
And for Shenmue specifically, I'm infuriated that I'm being treated like a product to be sold to Epic, instead of the consumer/backer I signed up to this mess as. EGS didn't exist in 2015 when I made my pledge, and it didn't exist in 2018 when I posed this question to Ys, either:
Needless to say, I have no confidence that they'll make good on their words.
I backed this game for $300. Krejlooc, who I quoted above, backed it for $500. Neither one of us intend to keep our copies at this point. I have switched my selected platform to PS4 and intend to sell or give it away solely to undercut one new sale of the game from the publisher. I don't appreciate being used like this, and I am going to respond in kind.
They kind of lost any right to be upset about that once they pulled this stunt.
Taking a big lump of money to restrict your product's release to a certain big company's platform goes way more against the point of Kickstarter in my opinion.
I think this is the part where, according to the rules, we're supposed to act like we're completely surprised.
To be clear, the conversation I was having is not about Shenmue 3 (admittedly I didn't label it as such in that post, but if you go back a response it's labelled as such). I strongly agree that at very least people should be getting refunds for Shenmue 3 if they'd like those.
Also miss me and everyone else on this board with the condescending "but but but" arguments, lol. :P
Enough is Enough. Do we want Epic to be so Anti-Consumer for much longer? NO.
They keep acting as if though Valve is the enemy, and they don't understand. Steam has all the features Gamers want out of PC Gaming, but they don't. This amount of exclusives is a distraction from the fact that they have been taking forever to make their store up to par.
So what should we do? Send them a message so that they have to learn a hard lesson about the big mistake they made. Especially since they tried forcing this Shenmue 3 thing on gamers and YS Net despite being for one of the most anticipated Games of all time and despite SEGA mostly putting their games on Steam.
Either way, what do you guys think? I'm personally sick of the crap going on, and just want to buy games on the storefront I prefer. Not to mention Valve is pro competition in that they allow games to be released on any store including their's as long as it's not a forced exclusive.
They keep acting as if though Valve is the enemy, and they don't understand. Steam has all the features Gamers want out of PC Gaming, but they don't. This amount of exclusives is a distraction from the fact that they have been taking forever to make their store up to par.
So what should we do? Send them a message so that they have to learn a hard lesson about the big mistake they made. Especially since they tried forcing this Shenmue 3 thing on gamers and YS Net despite being for one of the most anticipated Games of all time and despite SEGA mostly putting their games on Steam.
Either way, what do you guys think? I'm personally sick of the crap going on, and just want to buy games on the storefront I prefer. Not to mention Valve is pro competition in that they allow games to be released on any store including their's as long as it's not a forced exclusive.
Look, I'm not disputing the struggles currently. I am saying that for everyone trying to be Netflix, there will be a Disney who eventually figures it out and will have the content to back it up.
If you want exclusives, you fund them. No one minds that EA games are exclusive to Origin or Ubisoft completely abandoning Steam to stick with Uplay (if they weren't doing Epic shenanigans of limiting purchases to Uplay and EGS). No one minds that Fortnite is EGS exclusive. What Epic is doing is moneyhatting publishers so they remove their games already announced to be released in Steam (and in many cases, having a Steam page already) to become EGS exclusive.
Also, this seems mostly a move to harm Steam instead of trying to compete. Why Metro Exodus is now in Xbox Game Pass in PC?
Well, at least I have to thank Microsoft. I don't have any reason to buy Metro Exodus when it is released in Steam.
What's the evidence for uPlay stagnating? They've given away a ton of games recently and of all the big publishers, Ubi easily has the strongest catalogue to go on their own.
EGS and its defenders intentionally frame it that way to make this a false dichotomy. It allows for most criticisms to be reduced and dismissed as being "a steam fan". It has been stated many times that criticism and concerns are not necessarily a defense of steam. There are just what they are. Criticisms and concerns of EGS. Like this is a console war... it sucks.
This is why I think the best we're gonna get is an option to either get the EGS version at launch or the Steam version a year late. I don't think they'll be able to provide us with Steam keys at launch, even if they wanted to. :(
But yeah, at this point, I'd take that option. Just give me the Steam version a year later and go fuck yourselves. But my pledge is for a physical version, which may complicate this even more (will they actually manufacture separate cases for the EGS and the Steam versions?)
From a consumer standpoint and "healthy competition" standpoint uPlay and origin are doing nothing except selling their own games on their own launcher.
You have a point. They keep mindlessly supporting Epic not even realizing how bad the EGS is feature wise compared to steam, and don't even realize that even Origin is pro-PC Gaming freedom when it comes to allowing developers to put their games on whatever storefront they want. Not to mention they keep sliding the whole Crunch thing under the rug as if though it's a good thing for getting constant updates out there. So what your thought on this? because Epic doesn't even realize how against the freedom of PC Gaming on Windows they seem. Not to mention tricking people into thinking their lies are the truth.
This exceeds the scope of the conversation of Shenmue 3 but I think Tim and by extension, Epic, is publisher and developer focussed. I think the storefront is one that puts them ahead of the consumers. Given his background and the fact it is a private company, that was the goal and pursue it in the beginning for a loss.
I think a lot of the defense you see is from people within the industry that can or have benefited from this focus. I believe some of them do so with the best of intentions (ie. more money means more games). I think they have lost sight on the consumer though in the process accepting what is frankly a jarring and hamfisted barrage into PC gaming.
I also think the sales pitch of EGS is just that, a sales pitch and unsustainable. Their percentage cut can't last in an economy of scale and including the features they would need to be competitive with any storefront in 2019. They can't absorb all those costs in the long run and have suggested as much. This is all before the anti-consumer/competitive thing. And if even a sizeable percentage of the consumer base continues to be turned off and rejects it, their name will become a toxic pill developers have to decide whether or not to swallow.
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So by going dev focused they don't even realize the negative impact it could have on them by not adding the promised storefront features, and forcing exclusives on gamers
That means they seem caught up in the dirty money based on losing focus on the consumer, huh?
That means they seem caught up in the dirty money based on losing focus on the consumer, huh?
Wait, that was a PC Gamer contributor who came into this thread to shit post? Wild.
Remember none of these companies actually care about the consumer when Epic is waving around those big checks. So you shouldn't be loyal to them and keep the pressure on when they do wrong.
Remember none of these companies actually care about the consumer when Epic is waving around those big checks. So you shouldn't be loyal to them and keep the pressure on when they do wrong.
Ironically, it was probably delayed so it could be stripped of the Steam features and added to the EGS. Suzuki stated in March that they were getting it ready for Steam then.
Never forget ctrl + F steam -> delete -> borked free Axiom Verge
I really hope they give steam keys at launch or offer the option to wait 6-12 months for a steam key.
They clearly want to revitalize the franchise and for this to not be a one shot thing. It would be monumentally stupid to burn the bridges with loyal fans.
They clearly want to revitalize the franchise and for this to not be a one shot thing. It would be monumentally stupid to burn the bridges with loyal fans.
If you decide you want a refund wouldn't swapping to a console physical copy and selling it be an option? Unless you contributed to a higher level tier I'm sure you'd get a decent amount back if not all.
That was my plan if they didn't offer a refund or give me a steam key. I got the $120 dollar pledge, and I'm sure a PS4 copy with those little bonuses would have been attractive on ebay.
Sucks, but you have to draw the line somewhere. You give these anti consumer businesses an inch, and they'll take a mile.
It's almost unbelievable. Almost. Like, I keep going back and forth thinking that if this were a story someone had written you'd stop reading right there and send the author a terse note about how he's a hack and should go back to punching the holes into fleshlights for a living.
But then here we are.
There are plenty of options they can use. They could mark the backer keys as beta access, which would allow for it to be distributed on Steam without being for sale on Steam, for example.
Not mention there have been games that have activated on Steam but we're never sold through the store.
I must say, as someone who hasn't been following Shenmue 3 nor cares to but is a huge fan of Falcom RPGs, I have to do a double take every time this topic comes up.
No but seriously, I hope that the fans who want it are able to at least get refunds.
No but seriously, I hope that the fans who want it are able to at least get refunds.
You know, this would almost work for the people who backed at the tier which provided a trial version of the game prior to release.
I wonder if that's still a thing, or even if that can be done with EGS?
The cutoff date for survey responses was January 6th 2019.
You can have the survey resent and change your response, but I wouldn't count on it actually changing anything beyond that.
You can have the survey resent and change your response, but I wouldn't count on it actually changing anything beyond that.
Don't worry, I'm sure that feature will be coming on time in 2021.
Is this a roast of Epic or Shenmue? You make the call.
I mean if they can change their mind on the distribution platform, the least they can do is still honor changes to those surveys, especially with the delay. -.-
There's only like 30K backers, split between PS4 and PC. Getting some fraction of them on Epic is pretty much a drop in the bucket for a launcher with millions upon millions of users. This project doesn't do much of anything for them — but cumulatively all the exclusives draw a lot of attention to their storefront.
If they actually have even a small fraction of those millions for Fortnite players buying games on their store, they wouldn't be spending hundreds of millions on exclusives.
Smart companies don't throw away money for a small gain. And if this is a small gain then they are a foolish company.
what a fucking excellent way to piss even more people off, you're a fucking genius
Did this get posted? Forbes has picked up on the story, at least.
No single game is going to give them some huge gain (unless we are talking about Fortnite)
The cumulative effect of all these exclusives is strong, but any single one of them is not exactly a big deal. They don't really have the money to buy out huge huge exclusives so they have to rely on dozens of smaller games that might have dedicated audiences.
What they've been said to offer developers is guaranteed sales, not sacks of money. If their store is actually moving copies of games these exclusives could theoretically cost them nothing.
I'm also prepared to accept that Tim Sweeney made this deal out of pure malice and contempt for the PC gamer.
Borderlands 3 is the biggest potential heavy hitter. Even 2k realized that, which is why they probably drove up the price and Sweeney had to settle for 6 months instead of a year.
I think it's highly likely that Epic scores an exclusive on the PC version of Red Dead Redemption 2 as well. That would be bigger than Borderlands 3, IMO.
every ubisoft game is egs+uplay. No steam anymore. They made an extended deal earlier this year.
Probably.. Ubisofts last few major releases have been uPlay/EGS only
As someone who is apathetic to the whole situation, I'm certainly not a fan of this. Mainly because you're funding the project and, in turn, should be kept informed well in advance of major deals like this.
TBH, I don't think they'd be that upset.
TBH, I don't think they'd be that upset.
It's really every Ubisoft game? There's no Steam page for Ghost Recon Breakpoint either.
I guess those would be bigger exclusives than Borderlands 3 or RDR2 PC.
Ugh, don't give them ideas. Here's hoping the GTA5 review bomb(s) that the actually responded to are signs that they're at least a little responsive to the PC community.
Or, more likely, that they're going to a store without reviews.
Ubisoft stuff seems to be on a per case basis, since Starlink was added to Steam after the TD2 debacle. and actually it is or was on sale this week.
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