kimbo99

Member
Feb 21, 2021
4,825
Sounds like an industry problem. Progressive in bringing in more minorities but capping them to the same meaningless roles. That's why there is the stereotype of black people dying first in horror films. It was legit a thing in the early 2000s.

The industry gotta do better.
 

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
10,024
Just want to add to the conversation that throughout the game where Ellie kills hundredes of people... Nora is the only one she actually regrets. On top of that, the scene in question is pivotal in the way the player views Ellie. It's the tipping point where we start to realise that not only is Ellie dangerously hellbent on her quest for revenge, she might actually be just as bad as the villains.

It's one of the most important scenes in the game. Unpleasant? Absolutely. Important and necessary? Completely.

Nora is anything but a meaningless role.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Just want to add to the conversation that throughout the game where Ellie kills hundredes of people... Nora is the only one she actually regrets. On top of that, the scene in question is pivotal in the way the player views Ellie. It's the tipping point where we start to realise that not only is Ellie dangerously hellbent on her quest for revenge, she might actually be just as bad as the villains.

It's one of the most important scenes in the game. Unpleasant? Absolutely. Important and necessary? Completely.

Nora is anything but a meaningless role.
Yeah so it'd be great if All The Black Characters Across Both Games weren't some violent white person's target for character development.

It's not about whether that death had meaning to the story it's that these deaths are the only way black characters in TLOU get to show up.
 
As much as I loved part 2 & understood why they made the Nora thing the way that they did. This doesn't change the fact that most of the time pocs characters, namely the ones that are black, get the shit end of the stick. If they really felt the intersctive torture thing was mandatory to the story, than Nora should of been like the only major black character to die. There was no reason for Isaac to died, the seraphite that attack Abby didn't need to be black and on another note? Jesse could of easily gotten tommy's farm storyline with some reconfiguring.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,000
Enjoyed reading a different perspective. When I first played the game Nora's death certainly hit me, but as a white man, it could never hit me in the same way it did this author.

Abbey's fight on the island however definitely struck me as gratuitously violent to the point of absurdity as it was happening, and that was only hammered home when I read other people's thoughts on it. Stereotypes which, while I wasn't conscious of them in the moment, definitely explained some of my discomfort with that sequence in hindsight.

I hope Neil and the team have seen these criticisms (from Zaire and others) and will take them on board for future titles.
 

deli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,367
it really says a lot about how low the standards are for video game writing that not only do things as egregious as this barely get a mention in wider discourse, but the best writers in the AAA space still use it as lazy shorthand to elevate their material to wider social relevance with nearly no pushback. watching black folks getting smashed to bits is somehow something that we're supposed to be wowed by or think is important even though it's so prevalent in every aspect of media. never forget that this sort of stuff wasn't even ignored by mainstream critics, it was celebrated as an act of bravery! "no other developer would even go there maan" lmao get a grip.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
39,148
and they probably never will. hell, looks at duckmanns "response" to the casting of white voice actresses for poc characters in uncharted 4+LL.
he dont give a fuck.
True.
At the very least they could have learned from both TLOU1 criticism and U4 yet they decided to ignore it.

One of the reasons I want a very different lead and story in TLOU 3 if it ever happens. Then again, they could very well ignore the issue anyways.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,396
I mean frankly you're right considering people still knock Nadine's casting while not acknowledging that ND didn't double down on their "I don't see color and here's a white lady played by a black woman." Brand of missing the point of the criticism.
It's one of the most important scenes in the game. Unpleasant? Absolutely. Important and necessary? Completely.

Nora is anything but a meaningless role.
I hate it here.
 

TCB

Member
Oct 19, 2019
745
Just want to add to the conversation that throughout the game where Ellie kills hundredes of people... Nora is the only one she actually regrets. On top of that, the scene in question is pivotal in the way the player views Ellie. It's the tipping point where we start to realise that not only is Ellie dangerously hellbent on her quest for revenge, she might actually be just as bad as the villains.

It's one of the most important scenes in the game. Unpleasant? Absolutely. Important and necessary? Completely.

Nora is anything but a meaningless role.

You're not wrong, but I feel like people have a blind spot when it comes to this. I certainly did before reading through this thread. For instance, I really like the characters of Henry and Sam, and that emotional connection makes it harder to see the problem. Think about how many times a minority character in either LoU1 or LoU2 is used to either drive the plot forward, or used to drive the character development of a white main character: often dying to drive the point home. Just because they are well written, or they are important to the plot, doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.

Riley (dies): helps Ellie awaken to her sexuality and becomes the driving force of her survivor's guilt throughout the first game
Henry and Sam (dies): used to mirror the relationship between Joel and Ellie, dying tragically to showcase 'what if this happened to us'
Marlene (dies): arguably without her involvement Joel and Ellie would never have met, and thus the entire plot wouldn't have happened. Has to die at the end to put Joel in a position where he has to make a choice, which is important for character development, plot and overall themes

Jesse (dies): provides child to Dina and Ellie, which becomes part of their relationship development and makes it harder for Ellie to leave to go kill Abby
Yara (dies): pushes Abby to be more protective of Lev, also drives the plot so that Abby has to go rescue them
Isaac (dies): used to put pressure on Abby, also used to highlight her path to redemption
Manny (dies): gets killed unceremoniously by Tommy to develop Abby
Nora (dies): you've already mentioned it in your post, her death is used to develop Ellie (look how much of a monster Ellie has become)

One of the few minority characters that doesn't die is Lev, and even then you could argue their inclusion is to redeem Abby. Although I actually really liked Lev, that being said.

Edit: I just also wanted to say that I really love both games, but there is clearly a pattern you notice throughout both of them.
 
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Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,648
Just want to add to the conversation that throughout the game where Ellie kills hundredes of people... Nora is the only one she actually regrets. On top of that, the scene in question is pivotal in the way the player views Ellie. It's the tipping point where we start to realise that not only is Ellie dangerously hellbent on her quest for revenge, she might actually be just as bad as the villains.

It's one of the most important scenes in the game. Unpleasant? Absolutely. Important and necessary? Completely.

Nora is anything but a meaningless role.

It's not necessary.

1. They decided to have one black character in the Salt Lake Crew (consisting of 8 people).

2. They decided that character would get a disproportionately violent death.

They looked at all those characters and picked one to have Ellie torture with a pipe.

Nora isn't the 'the one who had it coming' (that's Manny - who spits on Joel). She isn't the innocent caught in the crossfire (that's Mel). She's not the closest person to Abby (that's Owen). She's just a regular member of the crew.

So why Nora? Why give that character arguably the second worst death in the game?
 
OP
OP
Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,982
Houston, TX
Sounds like an industry problem. Progressive in bringing in more minorities but capping them to the same meaningless roles. That's why there is the stereotype of Black people dying first in horror films. It was legit a thing in the early 2000s.

The industry gotta do better.
I've seen a number of people argue something similar for Smash Ultimate's own anti-Blackness by saying that it's also the industry's fault. But while it was a bit more applicable in that situation, I didn't entirely agree even back then. Such an argument absolves the developers of blame for continuing anti-Black trends, & developers like Naughty Dog are in full control of what happens to their characters in the story of their game. This isn't the early 2000s anymore, & it was wrong even back then. There is no defending Naughty Dog here.
 

That1GoodHunter

My ass legally belongs to Ted Price
Member
Oct 17, 2019
10,962
Yeah represantion is always a mixed bag with ND
- Uncharted: Nadine + Chloe would and should have been a groundbreaking moment for representation.... But both VA roles were filled by white women
- TLOU: Groundbreaking LGBTQ+ represention (in the AAA Space), as well as putting women with different bodies front and center... Really gross use of black characters, meanwhile the one latino's characterization was downright insulting

😕
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,824
I'm saying the complete opposite of what you're implying. Speaking up about it is how ND receives feedback because they've shown they're not immune and more importantly unreceptive to criticism. And their games certainly aren't without reproach even with the attempts at diversity. That's the whole point of pushing diversity in the first place. Because it doesn't stop at "is the cast diverse in the technical and literal sense of the word?" So many factors matter beyond that. Casting choices matter. Framing of characters matter. The fates of your more typical characters, (Joel), vs. the fates of characters who've been historically marginalized, oppressed, abused, stereotyped, etc. in media. All of that matters and is worth talking about when people feel that someone or a team of people had good intentions but missed the mark.
 

Oghuz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,999
This is why I'm really hopeful that their next game will indeed star a black man. Fix this ND.
 

Mass One

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,253
Wait. Are you talking about the same Nadine who beat the shit out of Drake, beat the sahib of Drake again while Sam attempted to help, only to fuck them both up, and the same Nadine who left Rafe to die because she was fed up with the BS. Quite genuinely the game appears to be programmed and scripted in a way that the player can't actually hit or at any point and I'm pretty sure she's literally the only uncharted villain who doesn't get violently indirectly murdered by Drake.

.

I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Yes the same Nadine. She still gets her shit pushed in nor does she win any fights. And she actually gets Mollywop by Rafe. The second statement I was making was that I think she was originally a white lady but at some point Nd didn't like the optics of seeing a white lady get beat up throughout the game by the protagonist, the antagonist, and almost shot by her former team.
 

GoldenFlex

Alt Account
Banned
May 7, 2021
2,900
Interesting article and can see the point that there is definitely an issue with representation in ND/gaming in general. I had not even realized that the Scar Brother boss fight was against a black man, I think the colors on my TV might be messed up because I swear he looked like some random white guy when I did it, but I went back to watch on youtube and yeah sure enough pretty clearly a racial caricature. I don't quite agree with the article that Nora is representative of an issue with the game however, because the main issue seems to be that you are forced to kill her and that some players reveled in it. From a storyline perspective her death/torture fit in with all of the others on Abbys crew and effectively served as the "tipping point" for Ellies descent. The reveal later on in abbys story that Nora was not just some evil WLF but had more character to her is a good thing and not a bad thing imo.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,001
I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Yes the same Nadine. She still gets her shit pushed in nor does she win any fights. And she actually gets Mollywop by Rafe. The second statement I was making was that I think she was originally a white lady but at some point Nd didn't like the optics of seeing a white lady get beat up throughout the game by the protagonist, the antagonist, and almost shot by her former team.

Nadine doesn't LOSE any fights either. Every fight she's in is either her kicking the shit out of Nate or events happening that allow Nate to get away before she finishes him off. The story very blatantly portrays Nadine as a better fighter than Nate is.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
You're not wrong, but I feel like people have a blind spot when it comes to this. I certainly did before reading through this thread. For instance, I really like the characters of Henry and Sam, and that emotional connection makes it harder to see the problem. Think about how many times a minority character in either LoU1 or LoU2 is used to either drive the plot forward, or used to drive the character development of a white main character: often dying to drive the point home. Just because you have an emotional connection to a character, or they are important to the plot, doesn't mean that it's not problematic.

Riley (dies): helps Ellie awaken to her sexuality and becomes the driving force of her survivor's guilt throughout the first game
Henry and Sam (dies): used to mirror the relationship between Joel and Ellie, dying tragically to showcase 'what if this happened to us'
Marlene (dies): arguably without her involvement Joel and Ellie would never have met, and thus the entire plot wouldn't have happened. Has to die at the end to put Joel in a position where he has to make a choice, which is important for character development, plot and overall themes

Jesse (dies): provides child to Dina and Ellie, which becomes part of their relationship development and makes it harder for Ellie to leave to go kill Abby
Yara (dies): pushes Abby to be more protective of Lev, also drives the plot so that Abby has to go rescue them
Isaac (dies): used to put pressure on Abby, also used to highlight her path to redemption
Manny (dies): gets killed unceremoniously by Tommy to develop Abby
Nora (dies): you've already mentioned it in your post, she's used to develop Ellie (look how much of a monster she is)

One of the few minority characters that doesn't die is Lev, and even then you could argue her inclusion is to redeem Abby. Although I actually really liked Lev, that being said.

Edit: I just also wanted to say that I really love both games, but there is clearly a pattern you notice throughout both of them.

If we're talking about minority characters in general, I think that's more to do with just how diverse the casts in these games are. If white characters were to have taken those spots, they'd have died all the same, for the purposes of character drama, plot etc.

Hell, at the end of TLOU2 only 5 key characters actually survive, 3 being white; Ellie, Abby and Tommy (though he's completely fucked up) and 2 being from ethnic minorities; Dina (Middle Eastern) and Lev (Asian). Among those characters, Dina and Ellie are also lesbian, and Lev transgender. If anything, that's a heavy handed amount of diversity for the final remaining cast, which I'm all for.

So whilst I agree with the points raised about specifically black characters (mostly that none are lasting/live), I can't agree about minority characters in general. I think that's simply down to a combination of how diverse and bleak TLOU is. It's not like white characters don't die left and right for plot purposes either, eg Abby's entire group (predominantly white), Joel, Bill, Tess, David etc.
 
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deli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,367
I'm going to be blunt here, if the 'representation' that we're supposed to be celebrating here is either through caricature or through assimilation into a generic post apocalypse story then what are we even celebrating? The issue isn't how many black characters i see on screen or how strong they are or whatever, it's bad writing.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,396
So whilst I agree with the points raised about specifically black characters (mostly that none are lasting/live), I can't agree about minority characters in general. I think that's simply down to a combination of how diverse and bleak TLOU is. It's not like white characters don't die left and right for plot purposes either, eg Abby's entire group (predominantly white), Joel, Bill, Tess, David etc.
Could be solved by not making both of their protags white women.

But tha'd be too much like right.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,824
Who'd they recast to play Nadine?
What did the casting of TLOU2 look like?

I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Yes the same Nadine. She still gets her shit pushed in nor does she win any fights. And she actually gets Mollywop by Rafe. The second statement I was making was that I think she was originally a white lady but at some point Nd didn't like the optics of seeing a white lady get beat up throughout the game by the protagonist, the antagonist, and almost shot by her former team.
Nadine never gets her shit pushed in outside of Lost Legacy and she literally tosses Drake out of a window the first time they meet. If he didn't have insane plot armor he'd be dead. But she's afforded that same plot armor in LL. Truth be told that sequence is one of my favorites if only because I don't particularly like Drake that much and seeing him get his ass beat is fun to watch. You genuinely can't harm her during either fight scene.

Assuming that ND didn't like the optics of seeing a white lady get beat up ignores
A)we literally watch a woman drown in quick sand in UC3
B) Nadine quite literally can't get beat up by Drake.
C)Elena exists and nearly gets killed for like, the fourth time in this series
D) Like..the entire existence of TLOU2


That also implies that, if we got Lost Legacy with a white Nadine that we wouldn't get scenes of her actually getting wrecked by the main antagonist of that game.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Could be solved by not making both of their protags white women.

But tha'd be too much like right.

You think if Abby was an ethnically minority character, there wouldn't be similar complaints or issues? If anything it likely would have been worse. Eg a minority character brutally murders father figure Joel, and then gets brutally beaten and tortured throughout the game herself.
 

That1GoodHunter

My ass legally belongs to Ted Price
Member
Oct 17, 2019
10,962
If we're talking about minority characters in general, I think that's more to do with just how diverse the casts in these games are. If white characters were to have taken those spots, they'd have died all the same, for the purposes of character drama, plot etc.

Hell, at the end of TLOU2 only 4 key characters actually survive, 2 being white; Ellie and Tommy (though he's completely fucked up) and 2 being from ethnic minorities; Dina (Middle Eastern) and Lev (Asian). Among those characters, Dina and Ellie are also lesbian, and Lev transgender. If anything, that's a heavy handed amount of diversity for the final remaining cast, which I'm all for.

So whilst I agree with the points raised about specifically black characters (mostly that none are lasting/live), I can't agree about minority characters in general. I think that's simply down to a combination of how diverse and bleak TLOU is. It's not like white characters don't die left and right for plot purposes either, eg Abby's entire group (predominantly white), Joel, Bill, Tess, David etc.
This is exactly why people need to stop throwing the discussion of ND and representation under "ND needs to do better with POC Rep". There is a world of difference in the Middle-Eastern, Latino, Asian, and Black representation in ND games.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,804
Chicago
I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Yes the same Nadine. She still gets her shit pushed in nor does she win any fights. And she actually gets Mollywop by Rafe. The second statement I was making was that I think she was originally a white lady but at some point Nd didn't like the optics of seeing a white lady get beat up throughout the game by the protagonist, the antagonist, and almost shot by her former team.
I think ND is as guilty as the next Dev with a fetish for brutally killing black characters but let's not just make shit up.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
You think if Abby was an ethnically minority character, there wouldn't be similar complaints or issues? If anything it likely would have been worse. Eg a minority character brutally murders father figure Joel, and then gets brutally beaten and tortured throughout the game herself.
I feel like the problem of black characters suffering for a violent white person would be at least somewhat lessened if there were a black protagonist. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention, but I thought Queer players were pretty happy to have a lesbian main character in a game as huge and marketed as TLOU2, whereas if Ellie were straight and she just murdered the hell out of a bunch of Queer characters, that'd feel Kinda Weird, right?

Like I thought that was the point of y'all going "it's a dark story! Everyone suffers a whole lot!"
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,003
Yeah this is one of the worst aspects of ND games, but specifically TLOU.

How on earth do you kill every. single. named black character in the entire series? If this wasn't Naughty Dog we were talking about, they'd be getting way more shit for this, possibly even getting accused of active, malicious white supremacy.

Nobody should defend ND

They had so many games to fix this and they still haven't.

Oh, they will "fix" it... by simply not having black characters in the next game.

"See! we stopped brutally murdering black people! Problem solved, right?"
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,824
Ah, so what you meant when you said "they didn't double down" is "they did double down, but they threw you negroes some scraps with secondary and tertiary characters in their next game."
This is a yes or no question. Did ND eventually do better regarding the casting of characters in their projects after criticism about the casting of characters? Because now you've moved the goalposts.
 

Mass One

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,253
What did the casting of TLOU2 look like?


Nadine never gets her shit pushed in outside of Lost Legacy and she literally tosses Drake out of a window the first time they meet. If he didn't have insane plot armor he'd be dead. But she's afforded that same plot armor in LL. Truth be told that sequence is one of my favorites if only because I don't particularly like Drake that much and seeing him get his ass beat is fun to watch. You genuinely can't harm her during either fight scene.

Assuming that ND didn't like the optics of seeing a white lady get beat up ignores
A)we literally watch a woman drown in quick sand in UC3
B) Nadine quite literally can't get beat up by Drake.
C)Elena exists and nearly gets killed for like, the fourth time in this series
D) Like..the entire existence of TLOU2


That also implies that, if we got Lost Legacy with a white Nadine that we wouldn't get scenes of her actually getting wrecked by the main antagonist of that game.
I think we just have different memories of the game and interpretations. I definitely remembered Drake spearing her against a wall and punching her through a floor. And Sam pointing a gun to her head and almost killing her if not for rafe. But I def can concede she doesn't get her shit pushed in explicitly, just figuratively. In my memories, she takes the most 2nd most abuse besides Drake.
 

KDC720

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,419
This is the same company that kept patting themselves on the back for creating a diverse cast of characters, but then insisted that a black character be voiced by a white woman for literally the dumbest reason I've ever heard.

I'm regards to TLOU2, I didn't have much of an issue with the Nora scene. I can understand the argument of using trauma inflicted on a black character to further the development of a white one though.

The brute fight was just terrible though, even I had a side eye when I first played it. The Isaac thing is a good point as well. They way characters talk about him I thought he would have a much larger role, he's barely in it. Was also surprised to find he was played by Jeffrey Wright, arguably the most famous actor in that games cast, he was pretty underutilized.

Definitely a pattern for ND though, something they need to work on for sure.
 

deli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,367
You think if Abby was an ethnically minority character, there wouldn't be similar complaints or issues? If anything it likely would have been worse. Eg a minority character brutally murders father figure Joel, and then gets brutally beaten and tortured throughout the game herself.

The issue isn't minority characters suffering lmao, it's them acting as props and dying cheaply and gratuitously to further the story of the white protags, this is like the basis of this whole discourse. you keep on deflecting and pivoting the thread to be about casting choices when people are talking about writing choices.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
The people bending over backwards to defend the representation in uc4 and tlou2 here are disappointing but not surprising.

The crunch based white male dominated studio who has treated people of color as an afterthought for a decade and frequently casts white actors to play them is not sensitive to racism. This article is a great share.

Take a hard look at yourselves lawyering trying to justify nadines role as slightly less racist or whatever. Who cares.

Listen to the people complaining instead of taking up space defending nd.
 

Mass One

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,253
I think we just have different memories of the game and interpretations. I definitely remembered Drake spearing her against a wall and punching her through a floor. And Sam pointing a gun to her head and almost killing her if not for rafe. But I def can concede she doesn't get her shit pushed in explicitly, just figuratively. In my memories, she takes the most 2nd most abuse besides Drake.

Edit: for clarification I mean Goldberg the wrestler spear and not literally spearing.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,396
You think if Abby was an ethnically minority character, there wouldn't be similar complaints or issues? If anything it likely would have been worse. Eg a minority character brutally murders father figure Joel, and then gets brutally beaten and tortured throughout the game herself.
I think the fact that you can't tell the difference between the complaints there would be for a black woman who the story is about going through trials and tribulations (and yes, there would be complaints) and the complaints about a black woman and her suffering being a prop in a white woman's revenge story speaks volumes in and of itself.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
Wow I didn't even realise and yeah it's so true. I think I was gutted most for two black dudes in TLOU1 (the older kid and younger brother), really felt at least one of them should have survived in that overrun town.

Hopefully it's addressed in TLOU3 or at least brought up whenever the game goes into development.
 

kimbo99

Member
Feb 21, 2021
4,825
I've seen a number of people argue something similar for Smash Ultimate's own anti-Blackness by saying that it's also the industry's fault. But while it was a bit more applicable in that situation, I didn't entirely agree even back then. Such an argument absolves the developers of blame for continuing anti-Black trends, & developers like Naughty Dog are in full control of what happens to their characters in the story of their game. This isn't the early 2000s anymore, & it was wrong even back then. There is no defending Naughty Dog here.

I was not defending ND.
 
Dec 6, 2017
11,073
US
I have a pretty low opinion of TLoU2's entire tone etc. to begin with but even within that context, the Nora thing stuck out to me as especially tasteless. All plot justifications and so on aside, you'd think someone over there would've seen that scene several times and gone 'eeehhhhh I don't know about that...'
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,396
This is a yes or no question.
He says after failing to answer a question pised to him.


Did ND eventually do better regarding the casting of characters in their projects after criticism about the casting of characters?
Fuck no. Because the problem with Nadine isn't just that she's a black character with a white voice actress it's that she's a black woman in a leading role in a AAA game with a white voice actress. That's a major opportunity for a black voice actress, who have very few opportunities in this industry, given to an already well established, well connected white woman.

Some of you are so fucking blind it's insane.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,908
So many people trying to cape for ND lmao

Black people really don't mean much to gamers huh