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Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,687
I find the whole Marvels 'you had to watch two Disney+ shows to be able to enjoy it' complaint really weird, as if every audience member of Endgame had seen the preceding 20+ movies. Like it's the second biggest movie of all time and every person in the audience understood every reference made? Give me a break.

Using that logic Infinity War should've been the more successful movie as you could mostly come in blind into that one (maybe Avengers 1 and Guardians 1 is the only 'homework') and still get maximum enjoyment from it.

The Marvels does not isolate its audience to the point that you're thrown into the thick of the narrative and not get what's going on. Monica has powers and works for Fury and Ms Marvel is a fangirl with powers (not exactly unknown territory with MCU's Spidey being presented in a similar fashion), did audience members really feel that lost? If Endgame bombed people would be saying 'of course it bombed, you had to watch 20 movies to get it!'

It's one of those complaints that I really don't think is genuine, as if the few people that did go see it and had no idea who these characters were, just sat there scratching their head in the theatre for 90 minutes.
I think the difference is Monica and Kamala were so much less established than the Avengers were. Carol too. If you had not seen Wandavision or Ms Marvel, or had forgotten what happened in Captain Marvel (as I had), that takes huge chunks out of the movie for you. Whereas if you went into Infinity War and had missed a Captain America here or a Thor there, you might not get everything in the movie but there's still more than enough for you to get by on. Most likely you already had some sense of Cap or Thor from the movies you did see. And if you hadn't seen *anything* before Infinity War then yeah you'd be completely lost. But the share of the IW audience who had not seen a single Cap, Thor, Guardians, et al. beforehand is probably much smaller than the share of the Marvels audience that had not seen Ms Marvel or remembered who Monica was.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,746
Yeah, the movie's have a much larger reach than the series. I know a lot of people who decided to only watch the movies and skip the series (and honestly, who could blame them when most of them have at best been 'meh').

Also, timing also helps. When Infinity War and Endgame came out the MCU was the biggest thing in entertainment. People who watched Infinity War and Endgame were probably deep into the Marvel movies, or at the very least were familiar with the characters through cultural osmosis or from seeing at least one Avengers film or solo film. It was inescapable almost.

Meanwhile, now it's not too rare to see someone who hasn't seen any MCU project for the last couple of years, let alone the D+ series.
 
Sep 18, 2023
551
There's also the fact that while internet-bred misogynist backlash is born out in the demographic data for Captain Marvel, it's really not for The Marvels. The people who came out to see it were mostly men and were mostly older. More men came out for Marvels than Captain Marvel and the demo was as male as MCU audiences usually are. That makes the explanation of sexist backlash much less reasonable, compared to the explanation of it simply being a bad-WOM movie in a series that isn't as popular with Gen Z as it was with Millennials.
vistagroup.co.nz

Who is part of The Marvels' unique MCU audience?

Marvel’s newest superhero team-up, The Marvels, made its debut to a distinctly different audience compared to recent Marvel titles.
 

Tamanon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,804
It was a movie that didn't have an initial appeal to enough folks to start strong, and didn't resonate with those who saw it enough to drive word of mouth. Sometimes movies miss.
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,871
I think Young Avengers is stupid. I can't even fathom how terrible and on the nose the dialogue will be. Just make an Avenger's team and put Ms. Marvel and Kate in it. I think theme teams are way too contrived and don't make any logical sense. Not to mention the MCU is already struggling to have one successful good movie lately so just load up the next Avengers with cool shit and great dialogue. Kate is more than old enough to be on the main team. Ms. Marvel worked great with the older team in the video game. I don't care at all about Cassie.
I will say while I don't hate the idea, I am not attached to any of the characters in it enough to really care too much. I was interested in the Avengers when it was announced because Iron Man was cool and Joss Whedon was in charge.
Im still against them giving Finn another shot as Iron Fist. He had the charisma of a wet paper bag and his series was fucking garbage. Sure the writing, directing, rubbish villain and absolutely abysmal fight choreography had quite a bit to do with that, but he never once fit Iron Fist for me... the other Netflix characters (DD, JJ, Luke Cage, Punisher) felt perfectly cast, everything in IF just felt terrible.

What little of that show I saw was not good, but in his defense, he was given like two weeks to prep for it.

Frankly I just think the concept of Danny Rand in general stinks way too much of white savior.

I actually skipped Iron Fist, watched Defenders and enjoyed his character, especially since he's kind of the butt of the jokes in it. I didn't watch Iron Fist the show until maybe 2 years ago? I think part of the problem was that S1 was just kind of the same thing as CW's Arrow of "Rich kid comes home and has lots of money and is really highly trained now" sort of thing. It hit all the same notes but was not as good as Arrow.

S2 of Iron Fist was much better a big part of it is how much of a fraud he is and the passing of the mantle. I found him at his best with Luke Cage though

I still don't believe thunderbolts is a real movie

It's honestly one of the ones I am looking forward to the most. Despite not seeing much of them, I really enjoyed Walker and Red Guardian. Bucky is more interesting now post endgame than before. I am a huge Cap fan so both this and Cap 4 are films I am really interested in. I may even be more of a Cap franchise fan than I am MCU one. I'm looking forward to seeing all these characters interact in more meaningful ways.

I think the difference is Monica and Kamala were so much less established than the Avengers were. Carol too. If you had not seen Wandavision or Ms Marvel, or had forgotten what happened in Captain Marvel (as I had), that takes huge chunks out of the movie for you. Whereas if you went into Infinity War and had missed a Captain America here or a Thor there, you might not get everything in the movie but there's still more than enough for you to get by on. Most likely you already had some sense of Cap or Thor from the movies you did see. And if you hadn't seen *anything* before Infinity War then yeah you'd be completely lost. But the share of the IW audience who had not seen a single Cap, Thor, Guardians, et al. beforehand is probably much smaller than the share of the Marvels audience that had not seen Ms Marvel or remembered who Monica was.
Also there was so much time between Wandavision and this.... and I don't think Ms. Marvel really got viewed because woman of color issues aside, they never really sold it as anything more than "another pointless D+ 6 hour series to watch". Plus it came out when Obi-Wan was airing? It was put out to die and made to appear more kiddie than the other Marvel stuff. Way too many things stacked against it on top of the sexism and racism and chums all railing against it with Obi-Wan trampling social media.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,067
Speaking exclusively for myself, I see ZERO value in a "young Avengers" movie, especially when all the actresses they're pushing are adults. This isn't even "teen titans: marvel style" so the concept would be slightly novel, it's basically just "all of our main actors bailed, so here's a new bunch of Avengers".

There is zero point in branding it as "Young Avengers". "New Avengers" would be fine though.
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
Are people in here trying to downplay and low key gaslighting folks into thinking bigoted chuds haven't been attacking and hate brigading Marvel/Disney these past 5 years?

I mean Brie Larson's face hasn't been plastered on thousand youtube thumbnails since 2019 for no reason at all lol. She's been absolutely demonized by these assholes

Again, let's go with the facts:
- The first Captain Marvel movie wasn't great either, but people gave it a chance. That's why it achieved 1 billion in the box office. The same happened with Thor 2, Iron Man 2, Doctor Strange 1, and Ant-Man.
- Once your movie flops critically, the next one has to be waaay better to survive. Thor Ragnarok, Iron Man 3, Multiverse of Madness achieved that. Ant-Man didn't. The Marvels didn't.

It's clearly Disney/Marvel's fault, over their quality control: You can have the most toxic fanbase ever (Hello Star Wars!) but quality will always speak louder than anything else.
 

X05

Member
Oct 25, 2017
869
The Marvels is not good. Like whatever you want but trying to deflect with "people only ganged up on it because it has female/POC leads" is self-parodying nonsense.
It is good. Far from great no doubt, but it is good
And no one is deflecting shit, just showing that there's certain bias against it just for being women/minority lead, which is sadly a fact of life for everything

Yeah no, "nobody was asking" for an Ant-Man trilogy
If they weren't, they certainly weren't anywhere near as loud as against these

People asked that about Black Widow and Echo because the former character was dead and the latter did not seem like a big enough character to deserve their own series. And as it turns out, neither project really silenced the doubters. A Black Widow movie would've been great circa 2016/17, but coming out in 2021 after the character was dead, it just didn't justify it's existence. And I say that as someone who kinda liked it.
What in the flying fuck is this take?
Loki was dead too, I guess that one didn't justify its existence either /s

Things don't have to justify their existence, even less so when it's to cater to *heavily* underrepresented people
Diversity matters, representation matters, and I'm fucking tired that the works that do have to be absolute immaculate and perfect to "justify their existence", otherwise they aren't needed
Whatever you think of The Marvels is on you (taste is subjective after all), but it did completely "justify its existence" even with all it's flaws, because it's female and minority led, and is one of the few (if not the only) blockbusters written and directed by a black woman
Hell, even with its "bomba" status it's currently the highest grossing film ever that's directed by a black woman
Let that sink in for a bit

But you know what show did inspire a chorus of "who asked for this", especially on this forum? Andor.
A show starring a Latino, but that one turned out awesome so it gets a pass because "it justified its existence"
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,146
Montreal
Things don't have to justify their existence, even less so when it's to cater to *heavily* underrepresented people

To add on to this:

People don't understand what they are implying 99% of the time when they say that a property didn't "justify its existence" when it has a woman, POC, etc lead.

It doesn't need to justify its existence and it may even exist for someone other than you. Does that make it a risk? Sure. Does that make it a risk not worth taking? Nah, even a corporate behemoth like Disney should be taking risks on projects like Echo, The Marvels, Thunderbolts, Young Avengers, etc because representation matters and just one of those projects landing (or even being middling) goes a long way for many people.

Not every swing at representation has to be Black Panther levels of zeitgeist or Captain Marvel levels of "made a billion". Sometimes a movie can fail critically or financially and still be an important work for at least trying.

Do Marvel projects need more time in the oven and better oversight? Yes.

However please for the love of God check your privilege when saying something doesn't need to exist or doesn't justify its existence. It's gross.

Young Avengers is a route to LGBTQ+ stories in the MCU in a way they've never done before.

Thunderbolts is a superhero team led by a woman.

Cap 4, despite all the turmoil, is one of the biggest opportunities for a follow up to Black Panther and having another POC male leading a mega franchise within the MCU.

Agatha has a chance to FINALLY start pulling in elements of Roma representation that is sorely lacking in the MCU.

You may not like these projects and they may not appeal to you but not everything has to appeal to you and we should be hoping these all succeed.

Even fucking Iron Fist, a project with a white male lead, is a good thing to come back because the whole history of Danny Rand is about checking his white privilege in regards to not just Asia, but also his relationship with Luke Cage.

It's the entire point of the character in modern interpretations.
 
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Tamanon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,804
Speaking exclusively for myself, I see ZERO value in a "young Avengers" movie, especially when all the actresses they're pushing are adults. This isn't even "teen titans: marvel style" so the concept would be slightly novel, it's basically just "all of our main actors bailed, so here's a new bunch of Avengers".

There is zero point in branding it as "Young Avengers". "New Avengers" would be fine though.

Yeah, it's one of the perils of trying to have younger heroes in movies. Comics don't age, actors and actresses do!
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,450
I don't need Finn Jones back as Iron Fist but if you're bringing some of the Defenders continuity back you may as well bring all of it. I don't want Mike Coulter back as Luke Cage either but you gotta do what you gotta do.

I think his take on Danny Rand would be far more palatable as a supporting character - him taking on the Orson Randall role in the comics, as the old "white savior" who should be dead but isn't and has to grapple with being a fuckup. And I think good direction and a good script would make that a fun dynamic.

Like, personally I'd use Shang-Chi 2 to adapt the Immortal Iron Fist's Seven Heavenly Kingdoms Tournament, introduce a new Iron Fist as a rival to him, and keep it ambiguous if they're rebooting the character or not. Then, launch a Heroes for Hire series, with Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Colleen Wing, Misty Knight, and a new, younger Power Man and Iron Fist (Victor Alvarez and Pei?) as next generation heroes, letting the originals fall into mentor roles.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,302
To add on to this:

People don't understand what they are implying 99% of the time when they say that a property didn't "justify its existence" when it has a woman, POC, etc lead.

It doesn't need to justify its existence and it may even exist for someone other than you. Does that make it a risk? Sure. Does that make it a risk not worth taking? Nah, even a corporate behemoth like Disney should be taking risks on projects like Echo, The Marvels, Thunderbolts, Young Avengers, etc because representation matters and just one of those projects landing (or even being middling) goes a long way for many people.

Not every swing at representation has to be Black Panther levels of zeitgeist or Captain Marvel levels of "made a billion". Sometimes a movie can fail critically or financially and still be an important work for at least trying.

Do Marvel projects need more time in the oven and better oversight? Yes.

However please for the love of God check your privilege when saying something doesn't need to exist or doesn't justify its existence. It's gross.

Young Avengers is a route to LGBTQ+ stories in the MCU in a way they've never done before.

Thunderbolts is a superhero team led by a woman.

Cap 4, despite all the turmoil, is one of the biggest opportunities for a follow up to Black Panther and having another POC male leading a mega franchise within the MCU.

Agatha has a chance to FINALLY start pulling in elements of Roma representation that is sorely lacking in the MCU.

You may not like these projects and they may not appeal to you but not everything has to appeal to you and we should be hoping these all succeed.

Even fucking Iron Fist, a project with a white male lead, is a good thing to come back because the whole history of Danny Rand is about checking his white privilege in regards to not just Asia, but also his relationship with Luke Cage.

It's the entire point of the character in modern interpretations.

This is a well stated post.

The timing of seeing "zeitgeist" here also compelled me to reply, because I feel like the zeitgeist of The Marvels being bad is well more than half the problem. People just accepted that it's bad and rolled with it, or entered expecting something bad and WHAT DO YA KNOW that had a big part to play in how they saw it. Valid criticisms can be made, sure. That can be done with any art and/or production. But the targeting of The Marvels this way (justifying it's existence, think it's bad before seeing it) is symptomatic of a problem that doesn't have much of anything to do with the production itself, I feel.
 

X05

Member
Oct 25, 2017
869
To add on to this:

People don't understand what they are implying 99% of the time when they say that a property didn't "justify its existence" when it has a woman, POC, etc lead.

It doesn't need to justify its existence and it may even exist for someone other than you. Does that make it a risk? Sure. Does that make it a risk not worth taking? Nah, even a corporate behemoth like Disney should be taking risks on projects like Echo, The Marvels, Thunderbolts, Young Avengers, etc because representation matters and just one of those projects landing (or even being middling) goes a long way for many people.

Not every swing at representation has to be Black Panther levels of zeitgeist or Captain Marvel levels of "made a billion". Sometimes a movie can fail critically or financially and still be an important work for at least trying.

Do Marvel projects need more time in the oven and better oversight? Yes.

However please for the love of God check your privilege when saying something doesn't need to exist or doesn't justify its existence. It's gross.

Young Avengers is a route to LGBTQ+ stories in the MCU in a way they've never done before.

Thunderbolts is a superhero team led by a woman.

Cap 4, despite all the turmoil, is one of the biggest opportunities for a follow up to Black Panther and having another POC male leading a mega franchise within the MCU.

Agatha has a chance to FINALLY start pulling in elements of Roma representation that is sorely lacking in the MCU.

You may not like these projects and they may not appeal to you but not everything has to appeal to you and we should be hoping these all succeed.

Even fucking Iron Fist, a project with a white male lead, is a good thing to come back because the whole history of Danny Rand is about checking his white privilege in regards to not just Asia, but also his relationship with Luke Cage.

It's the entire point of the character in modern interpretations.
This is an excellent post
 

GoodGrief

Member
Jan 24, 2024
841
It is good. Far from great no doubt, but it is good
And no one is deflecting shit, just showing that there's certain bias against it just for being women/minority lead, which is sadly a fact of life for everything


If they weren't, they certainly weren't anywhere near as loud as against these


What in the flying fuck is this take?
Loki was dead too, I guess that one didn't justify its existence either /s

Things don't have to justify their existence, even less so when it's to cater to *heavily* underrepresented people
Diversity matters, representation matters, and I'm fucking tired that the works that do have to be absolute immaculate and perfect to "justify their existence", otherwise they aren't needed
Whatever you think of The Marvels is on you (taste is subjective after all), but it did completely "justify its existence" even with all it's flaws, because it's female and minority led, and is one of the few (if not the only) blockbusters written and directed by a black woman
Hell, even with its "bomba" status it's currently the highest grossing film ever that's directed by a black woman
Let that sink in for a bit


A show starring a Latino, but that one turned out awesome so it gets a pass because "it justified its existence"
I think you'll find that, like Andor and Loki, in the eyes of most people shows and movies justify the existence by being good.

I agree wholeheartedly that diversity and representation matter. Which is why it sucks when stuff like The Marvels comes out and hurts the careers of everyone involved. It doesn't help anyone. So I don't know what positive impact can be claimed to stem from it.
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,580
I doubt Young Avengers will still happen. It needs to be announced ASAP since the people involved aren't getting any younger.

It would make zero sense to release a movie called "young" Avengers that has characters older than the original avengers.

Currently marvel should focus on getting back on track but I'm not sure how.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,602
Young Avengers made sense in a world where they could fight Baby Kang played by the mans from Stranger Things but nowadays heck no
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,146
Montreal
I think you'll find that, like Andor and Loki, in the eyes of most people shows and movies justify the existence by being good.

I agree wholeheartedly that diversity and representation matter. Which is why it sucks when stuff like The Marvels comes out and hurts the careers of everyone involved. It doesn't help anyone. So I don't know what positive impact can be claimed to stem from it.

I feel like this is discounting the fact that generally women and minority led projects have to jump an even higher bar just to prove themselves and if they miss, well then they failed at representing what they are in the entire genre. Madam Web is a great example of this.

The positive impact is trying in the current and having an actual impact in the future. It may not sound like much but my kids are growing up at a time when Marvel (and Disney) are going to be pushing out a lot of franchises that not only represent them, but also give them alternate ways to view the world. A lot of people (especially now) mock superhero movies for imperfect projects that aren't as good as they were, but the push for representation is going to cause a whole generation of kids (and even young white men) to see worlds and characters that represent a diverse world view.

We saw a microcosm of this in the reaction to Ms Marvel - people are still saying, to this day, that either they didn't get the project, missed the tone, etc where it people stopped to think about it, for one second, you'd see a project that whole flawed, is an attempt to not only give a POC character her own show, but to also represent a completely different culture AND represent a world view that most 20-40 year old white men are just not going to connect with.

The worst you can say about most of Marvel's recent misses is that they were either middling or unappealing. But to encourage them to drop these characters or focus on the old guard is missing the forest for the trees, and is basically on the same level as Sony pooping out Madam Web and then saying that female superhero leads don't work.

You know what Marvel and Disney need to keep doing? Try again for almost all of these characters and make sure you get them right. They seem to be listening in that respect and we will see how they do.

It's why the whole conversation around Marvel is so hyperbolic - its a bunch of people overreacting to a downturn in superhero movies and much like the comics, we will go through Bronze, Silver, Gold, etc ages and things will evolve, especially as the kids growing up on these things hit the point where they can join the creative process.

And it's important as hell (even if it's gross) to encourage Disney, etc to keep trying with these projects and telling them to get them right and why the people cheering for the death of "capeshit" are so goddamn exhausting.

But most of all, blockbuster franchises starring women and/or minorities should be allowed to be "meh", or "okay", or "uninteresting", or mediocre or even "bad, but I could see what they were going for". We've had decades of white male led franchises and movies be just that, and arguing for companies to pivot away from these characters right now is just giving ammo to people who DO want these characters gone because they want the all white male teams with the one woman in a sexy outfit back.

And it sucks that we are at this point but we are.
I doubt Young Avengers will still happen. It needs to be announced ASAP since the people involved aren't getting any younger.

It would make zero sense to release a movie called "young" Avengers that has characters older than the original avengers.

Currently marvel should focus on getting back on track but I'm not sure how.

Marvel is already focused on getting back on track by adding actual showrunners to their shows, changing how they produce TV and by changing their film pipeline through getting rid of people like Victoria Alonso.

Will it work? Who knows but we are past the point where they are getting back on track and we are currently in a timeline where they feel that they are back on track and producing stuff to hit that point.

Time will tell of course.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,357
Young Avengers... I could pass on. Not really a concept that ever interested me even in the comics. Just give Kamala and Kate stuff to do in more movies instead, make them Avengers or something... (I mean, Spidey was almost an Avenger, why not). Just gimme more Kate and Kamala.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,715
Costa Rica
To add to the conversation. It is my opinion film bros will GLADLY join hands with the worst Chuds out there to attack a minority led project that doesn't "prove itself" by being a zeitgeist capturing masterpiece.

Also Andor is the perfect example of "one of the good ones" despite doing positively jackshit to portray Latinos like "Blue Beetle" did
 
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Plinko

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,624
Young Avengers... I could pass on. Not really a concept that ever interested me even in the comics. Just give Kamala and Kate stuff to do in more movies instead, make them Avengers or something... (I mean, Spidey was almost an Avenger, why not). Just gimme more Kate and Kamala.
Yep--this. I have zero interest in watching a bunch of kids in a superhero movie. Kamala and Kate are great and should be part of it. I just don't want entire teams of teens being the focus of the movie.
 

GifGafJef

Member
Dec 19, 2022
1,378
To add to the conversation. It is my opinion film bros will GLADLY join hands with the worst Chuds out there to attack a minority led project that doesn't "prove itself" by being a zeitgeist capturing masterpiece.

Also Andor is the perfect example of "one of the good ones" despite doing positively jackshit to portray Latinos like "Blue Beetle" did
I think you are coming at this from a viewpoint of a ticked of super fan. Which fabled "film bros" are you talking about? If they didnt like the movie are they supposed to not mock it like they usually do?Just because it stars POC? IF they dont like most of these blockbuster films why should they suddenly hold back for this one film? The standard is the same.

Andor is "one of the good ones" how exactly? Like what are you complaining about? Its a show that is widely lauded. Its one of the good ones not because it stars latinos but because it is simply great. May have misunderstood your implication there but its not a case of them suddenly being nice to just one POC lead project. Its just a great show. These film bros you are complaining about just seem like bigots not a separate group that allies with them as you seem to claim? All the people i see on twitter who mock cape films and star wars shows dont do it because they star POC, they slam them because they see them as being mediocre and poorly made.


I hope MCU actually try with the X-men and not put up an Echo, Marvels , Quantumania tier effort. They need to bring their best effort ala Loki, Black Panther , Guardians. Also for the love of god if they are not afraid to deal with politics please do better than Falcon and Winter soldier.
 
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entut1

Member
Mar 31, 2023
643
Black Panther was critically and commercially successful. 1.3 billion. To this day the only MCU movie nominated for Best Picture. The highest-rated MCU release on Metacritic.

All the supposed "film bros" (they're really not, lol) on ERA I know liked it. And they certainly don't care to trash a movie they didn't like that would be led by a white man, lol. It's not about pushing back on representation, it's about pushing back on mediocrity. And I don't really have a problem with that approach really.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,522
I don't care if they try to teach Finn Jones how to fight, dude was WOEFULLY miscast as Danny Rand.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,715
Costa Rica
Black Panther was critically and commercially successful. 1.3 billion. To this day the only MCU movie nominated for Best Picture. The highest-rated MCU release on Metacritic.

All the supposed "film bros" (they're really not, lol) on ERA I know liked it. And they certainly don't care to trash a movie they didn't like that would be led by a white man, lol. It's not about pushing back on representation, it's about pushing back on mediocrity. And I don't really have a problem with that approach really.

And yet, Black Panther itself is being called out by Peltz in his attempt to take over. Madame Web's bombing made Sony retool the upcoming Silk show for a "male-skewing audience".

The sad reality is that minorities aren't allowed to have a couple mediocre films while Adam Sandler gets to keep doing his thing and not a single exec will try and shutdown white protagonists because of his critical blunders. The "push back against mediocrity" has a nice ring to it until you realize how it hurts underrepresented communities.

That's what other posters insist you try to understand. You don't have to like them, you can criticize them fairly, but it's good that they exist and more should come. Marvel being so big is what even allowed these stories to be told in any medium because of how "Risky" they are.

But hey if they don't, at least cinema is being saved or some shit.
 
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Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,687
Representation in film doesn't begin and end with Marvel, there are many good and great movies made by and/or starring women and people of color and LGBT people every year. I don't think bad Marvel projects should get extra credit based on the diversity of their casting, and I think it's insulting to the actual filmmakers to act otherwise. It would be uncontroversial to say that Secret Invasion was a bad show or that Eternals was a misfire, but thinking that doesn't mean you hate women or POC. Likewise you aren't an enemy of women and POC or an ally of bigots by not liking The Marvels, and asserting to the contrary is both insulting and incredibly wrong headed.

Btw the "justified its existence" line about Black Widow that you are all dogpiling on was about why I was disappointed with it. Like I said I actually liked that movie! But it did nothing to build on or recontextualize the story of a dead character in coming out post-Endgame, and was clearly only coming out when it did because of Disney's gender politicking about women-led Marvel movies for years. That's why I said it didn't justify its existence — it didn't really add anything to Natasha's story or grow her character, which is what any movie should do for its lead! Comparing it to Loki only makes that clearer, as the Loki of that show is both a different character AND goes through a whole new arc and level of growth. Black Widow was nothing like that. Now where that movie will probably end up "justifying its existence" is introducing Yelena and others for Thunderbolts, but as far as Natasha's story goes, it didn't really bring anything new to the table and was clearly just a holdover from 2016/17, which was my prime frustration with a movie I otherwise liked!
 

GifGafJef

Member
Dec 19, 2022
1,378
And yet, Black Panther itself is being called out by Peltz in his attempt to take over.

The sad reality js that minorities aren't allowed to have a couple mediocre films while Adam Sandler gets to keep doing his thing and not a single exec will try and shutdown white protagonists because of his critical blunders. The "push back against mediocrity" has a nice ring to it until you realize how it hurts underrepresented communities.

That's what other posters insist you try to understand. You don't have to like them, but it's good that they exist.

This new trend of making defending the blockbuster movies of a giant corporation out to be a form of social activism has got to go imo. We deserve better than a substandard effort from these movies. Better exploration of POC stories, of culture (which Marvel has done of course) and also better movies and shows period. Dismissing the messy projects they put out and criticizing them shouldn't be seen as being against POC stories etc.

Sure there are bigots out there but isnt silencing criticism of projects just letting them win?
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,687
Black Panther was critically and commercially successful. 1.3 billion. To this day the only MCU movie nominated for Best Picture. The highest-rated MCU release on Metacritic.

All the supposed "film bros" (they're really not, lol) on ERA I know liked it. And they certainly don't care to trash a movie they didn't like that would be led by a white man, lol. It's not about pushing back on representation, it's about pushing back on mediocrity. And I don't really have a problem with that approach really.
Speaking of Black Panther — how about Wakanda Forever, a movie led by a black woman, which grossed over $800m, won positive reviews and cinemascore, and warned the MCU's only acting Oscar nomination (also for a black woman!).

"Film bros" who don't like the MCU have never liked the MCU, that didn't just start with The Marvels. And the people recording 5-hour hate videos about Brie Larson with red-eyed youtube thumbnails are not exactly the average letterboxd user either.
 

entut1

Member
Mar 31, 2023
643
Black Widow is interesting. I remember being mostly ok with it. But it's inconsistent for sure. The first 10-30 minutes of the movie are so much more interesting that what comes after.
 

entut1

Member
Mar 31, 2023
643
Speaking of Black Panther — how about Wakanda Forever, a movie led by a black woman, which grossed over $800m, won positive reviews and cinemascore, and warned the MCU's only acting Oscar nomination (also for a black woman!).
It's kind of baffling Angela Basset lost that Oscar to someone else lol. You could tell she felt kind of "huh?!" about it.
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
21,621
The fact of the matter is that hating the MCU has become the "cool" thing to do. Nothing it does is ever good enough because now it's in vogue to call every MCU product bad before it's even come out.

Wakanda Forever? GotG 3? Loki?

All things that people will conveniently forget about when it comes time to hate the MCU. Then it's "I stopped caring after Endgame" or "They should just skip to X-Men" or "The Marvel empire has collapsed!"

People saying "No one asked for this!" is just a part of that. No one questioned why GotG 1 needed to exist and that's way the hell more obscure than Young Avengers.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,687
It's kind of baffling Angela Basset lost that Oscar to someone else lol. You could tell she felt kind of "huh?!" about it.
Jamie Lee was riding the EEAO wave and had the "Hollywood royalty who has never won before" angle that the Academy loves to award. Also I just don't think voters had it in them to give an acting Oscar for a Marvel movie. Bassett wouldn't have been my #1 choice in that category that year (I would've gone Stephanie Hsu or Kerry Condon) but her losing to JLC was nonsense.
 

IHaveIce

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,796
It's kind of baffling Angela Basset lost that Oscar to someone else lol. You could tell she felt kind of "huh?!" about it.
I still stand by that Stephanie Hsu should have gotten that Oscar if not Jamie Lee Curtis sorry.. Angela Basset is a fantastic actor but her (limited) scenes in Wakanda Forever were not close to what Stephanie delivered in EEAAO
 

entut1

Member
Mar 31, 2023
643
The fact of the matter is that hating the MCU has become the "cool" thing to do. Nothing it does is ever good enough because now it's in vogue to call every MCU product bad before it's even come out.

Wakanda Forever? GotG 3? Loki?

All things that people will conveniently forget about when it comes time to hate the MCU. Then it's "I stopped caring after Endgame" or "They should just skip to X-Men" or "The Marvel empire has collapsed!"
It's funny because while I genuinely liked a bunch of what these three projects did, hard to call any of them great expect maybe Loki.

I was hyped to death for Wakanda Forever pre-release because Coogler could deliver no wrong in my head and ended up liking almost all of it except one or two things in its third act really bothering me so it didn't quite live up to my expectations.

Guardians 3 has the really harrowing Rocket arc + backstory and some of the best action in the MCU. It drags however.

Loki is amazing in the character department but also if you start questioning it's logistics it becomes messy.

I dunno maybe I've seen too many better movies and I've grown kind of cynical and harsh on the franchise heh.
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,871
I know Loki is popular online, but a lot of people I know dropped the MCU because of it. It was way way way more confusing and out there than anything else we'd gotten. It felt like they were milking Loki and just coming up with reasons to make a TV show with him.

GOTG3 I never heard anyone talk about after it came out. It was a good movie but honestly mostly just more of the same after the first. and 2 didn't really knock anyones socks off either.

Wakanda Forever is a hard film to judge with the tragedy around it, it was definitely overpacked and stuffed but it's excusable with everything that went around it. It certainly didn't rock the world like the first did... and Namor emdedup being nothing on the level of Killmonger who was a huge reason for the love of the first one.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,377
Providence, RI
I know Loki is popular online, but a lot of people I know dropped the MCU because of it/

I can pretty much guarantee that "I dropped the MCU because of Loki" is not at all a common sentiment.

GOTG3 I never heard anyone talk about after it came out.

You can say this for the majority of MCU films. People really have rose-tinted glasses when it comes to the MCU, as if that 2018/2019 period was the norm.

It was a good movie but honestly mostly just more of the same after the first.

3 is a noticeably more serious film than the first two. If you watch all three back-to-back-to-back, 3 is not going to feel like more of the same. Gunn made a very clear effort to give the film a different vibe and try new things with his direction.
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,871
I can pretty much guarantee that "I dropped the MCU because of Loki" is not at all a common sentiment.



You can say this for the majority of MCU films. People really have rose-tinted glasses when it comes to the MCU, as if that 2018/2019 period was the norm.



3 is a noticeably more serious film than the first two. If you watch all three back-to-back-to-back, 3 is not going to feel like more of the same. Gunn made a very clear effort to give the film a different vibe and try new things with his direction.
I'm just talking about friends in my circle who have been longtime MCU watchers.
 

entut1

Member
Mar 31, 2023
643
I think probably the two last MCU movies people thought were huge events are probably No Way Home and Doctor Strange 2, which came out consecutively. Disney has never been able to replicate that kind of success ever since.

I'm somewhat confident Deadpool 3 is going to be a must-see for many though.
 

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,731
Loki is the only Marvel content I've really liked since Endgame, and Deadpool & Wolverine looks like the next one.

Sounds like the TVA concept is working on me, though that Kang issue is going to be difficult to overcome.
 
Oct 25, 2017
157
This new trend of making defending the blockbuster movies of a giant corporation out to be a form of social activism has got to go imo. We deserve better than a substandard effort from these movies. Better exploration of POC stories, of culture (which Marvel has done of course) and also better movies and shows period. Dismissing the messy projects they put out and criticizing them shouldn't be seen as being against POC stories etc.

Sure there are bigots out there but isnt silencing criticism of projects just letting them win?

We definitely do deserve better, but while we are working on "better" I will accept "decent" or even "existent". I'm a middle aged guy and I only just got to see my people/culture represented properly in a superhero thing *this year*. I don't want to wait around for a 10/10 because I know I will probably be dead before that happens. Hollywood is far more interested in using natives as stereotypical magic sidekicks who can talk to trees, or as a way to appeal to white folks who are looking to ease their consciences over what their ancestors did and what continues to be done to us. Echo was important to *me* and probably to a lot of natives out there, even if it wasn't "better".

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticized for its failings; it absolutely should. But "nobody asked for this" isn't criticism - it's a dismissal of the very *idea* of it existing, and whether people mean it to or not, it absolutely comes off as casual racism/bigotry in this context.
 

Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,622
Boston, MA
What little of that show I saw was not good, but in his defense, he was given like two weeks to prep for it.
It wasn't good but I didn't really put that on him. I thought he was fine and seemed more comfortable outside the Iron Fist series. But the problem for me at least was they just wanted it super grounded. Was silly having an Iron Fist show
The fact of the matter is that hating the MCU has become the "cool" thing to do. Nothing it does is ever good enough because now it's in vogue to call every MCU product bad before it's even come out.

Wakanda Forever? GotG 3? Loki?

All things that people will conveniently forget about when it comes time to hate the MCU. Then it's "I stopped caring after Endgame" or "They should just skip to X-Men" or "The Marvel empire has collapsed!"

People saying "No one asked for this!" is just a part of that. No one questioned why GotG 1 needed to exist and that's way the hell more obscure than Young Avengers.
I'm on YouTube and I get recommended the rise and fall of the MCU and I'm like what the hell lol. You'd think it's been years of bad movies and shows. Ant Man 3, The Marvels and Secret Invasion are the worst of the bunch but ppl act like every series is terrible.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,715
Costa Rica
We definitely do deserve better, but while we are working on "better" I will accept "decent" or even "existent". I'm a middle aged guy and I only just got to see my people/culture represented properly in a superhero thing *this year*. I don't want to wait around for a 10/10 because I know I will probably be dead before that happens. Hollywood is far more interested in using natives as stereotypical magic sidekicks who can talk to trees, or as a way to appeal to white folks who are looking to ease their consciences over what their ancestors did and what continues to be done to us. Echo was important to *me* and probably to a lot of natives out there, even if it wasn't "better".

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticized for its failings; it absolutely should. But "nobody asked for this" isn't criticism - it's a dismissal of the very *idea* of it existing, and whether people mean it to or not, it absolutely comes off as casual racism/bigotry in this context.

Exactly.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,399

View: https://twitter.com/ScarletJokerTWT/status/1774134500999704933
Funko pop leaker (because that's a thing) Scarlet Joker has leaked that a Lady Deadpool pop is coming for Deadpool & Wolverine.
GJ73AcxXIAEkrPG
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,399
I'm still thinking Taylor Swift. I can't imagine the Deadpool variants are going to be any more than one off joke characters and that seems like the thing you'd have Taylor Swift be in a Deadpool movie if she's going to have a cameo (and of course this is all just rumors), not something as ridiculously on the nose as a Dazzler variant.