AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,807
Raccoon City
EDITED OP NOTE:
A quick note before I start,
since Era doesn't bode well with reboot Lara:

If you claim something, back it up. I claimed something, and I backed it up with a long ass OP. PLEASE NO DRIVE-BY POSTS - For someone to just drive-by and drop one sentence saying "no, she sucks lol." is disrespectful to the nature of the thread and to their writers/other debaters involved. Sure, we all have opinions, and I'm not forcing mine on anyone, but in respect to the type of thread (an in-depth analysis) I expect that if you disagree, at least back it up with some substance and evidence. Otherwise, if you don't have the time or don't feel like it, then just don't respond.

Furthermore, this is not a TR vs. UC thread, this is not a thread discussing the gameplay or the departure from the old Lara and classic series. This is not a dual pistol versus climbing axe/bow comparison thread. This is not a Lara needs a bodysuit and shorts to be Lara. This is a thread about the current (and frankly, the most successful) iteration of Lara Croft, specifically her character growth throughout the trilogy by Crystal Dynamics: the 2013 release, Tomb Raider; its sequel, Rise of the Tomb Raider; and the finale and upcoming release, Shadow of the Tomb Raider.
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The now-trilogy series (or any Tomb Raider game, really) hasn't been known exactly for its outstanding plot, as it's not anything innovative really. However, what I think is greatly overlooked and underrated is Crystal Dynamics' efforts on Lara Croft's personal psychology, emotion and mental journey throughout the three games. The trilogy, penned as the "Origin Story" of the already-badass Lara you play as in the very first few Tomb Raider games on the first Playstation.
Introduction
In those old games, Lara is in her late-20's-early-30's and is cold-blooded, calm, collected, and highly skillful in traversing the hardest of platforms, combating mythical creatures and killing anyone - even humans - that get in her way without thinking twice, and overall tomb raiding. She also quips and has a witty sense of humor; but she doesn't like to open up or dwell on the past. What made her the person that she is? Why is her personality aloof and sense of humor dry? How did she learn to become a master at combat and platforming? When did her obsessions with raiding tombs start? And where did it happen? The five W's are questions that were never answered in the classic games... but this is where the "Origin Story" trilogy kicks in. It attempts to answer those questions; and while the tools and contexts it uses to answer those questions are not innovative by any means, the impact on Lara Croft herself -- which is the main purpose of the creation of this entire trilogy to begin with -- is often overlooked. Crystal Dynamics uses creative contrasts, environmental metaphors, conversational references and subtle expressions throughout the trilogy to enhance and explain the early-30s Lara we know.

Disclaimer: For the sake of simplicity, I will not be bringing up the comics in the series and will only focus on the three games themselves. In addition, there will be spoilers for Tomb Raider (2013) and Rise of the Tomb Raider (2016).





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The Beginning: A Survivor is Born
"When all seemed lost... I found a truth, and I knew what I must become."
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Lara Croft is a woman in her early 20's and a bartender at the Nine Bells pub. Having just graduated with a degree in Archaeology, an interest she developed due to her father's status as a well-known explorer in the industry. She naturally decided it's time to go out on an expedition to uncover artifacts -- her very first expedition! She sets out with a team and are on the hunt for the mythical lost kingdom of Yamatai. The team includes Lara and some of her colleagues, a doctor with three PhD's in Archaeology, Whitman, and her dad's best friend and Lara's uncle figure, Roth, who serves as the captain of the team.

Lara, a rookie archaeologist, has her own research about Yamatai's whereabouts. She might be a novice archaeologist, but she's a smart one. Her research had a lot of meat to it and everyone around her believed in it except one person: herself. She is constantly in doubt of her very own skills throughout this entire game in every context, but is constantly getting reminded by the people around her that she is talented and capable.

The doctor, Whitman is hellbent on where he thinks the ship should go in order to find Yamatai, but Lara has come to the conclusion form her research that the doctor is wrong and that they must go into the Dragon's Triangle instead. Whitman is more than skeptical, as Lara is a newbie in the field. He disregards her intelligence and thinks she has no idea what she's talking about. The decision on where the ship will go comes down to Roth. As the captain, he decided they should go with Lara's suggestion.

That suggestion by Lara is the action that kickstarted what Lara's character in the very first Tomb Raider game on Playstation 1. The butterfly effect is in motion, and we now see the consequences of such a small action unfold before us until that moment where we meet the experienced Lara in her early 30's.


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"I finally set out to make my mark and find adventure, but instead, adventure found me."​

Lara's suggestion to go into the Dragon's Triangle hit the jackpot, but not without dire consequences. Upon arrival, the ship is struck by a strange but deadly storm that strikes the ship and its members. With the ship in ruins and its members washing ashore on a mysterious island -- Lara did indeed find Yamatai, but it is infested with a dark history and savage people that kill without thinking twice.

Lara wakes up alone and tied up. Panicking, she screams and yells for help. "What is this place!?" she says in fear and in a scared, crying tone. She is continuously yelling her teammates' names and is in a state of obvious fear and panic. She finds one of their radios and uses it to contact Roth, who's now helping her coordinate where they should meet. She is afraid and scared, and cries to him: "Roth, please come get me." In fact, she constantly shows defeat by showing submission to the circumstances. As her uncle figure, Roth reminds her that she's the daughter of Richard Croft -- Roth's best friend -- and Lara's father, and that there's nothing she can't do. Even then, she hesitates: "I don't think I'm that kind of Croft." In where Roth reassures her that she is, she just doesn't know it yet.

Lara finds a bow and is starving, she is forced to kill to survive. Years of archery with Roth gave Lara the ability to be a sharpshooter, so aiming at the deer in sight was not hard for Lara; killing it was. She blurts out "sorry..." before skinning it, she is evidently uncomfortable in doing it bus is forced if she wants to survive. She fights her way throughout the island to try to find Roth, and that's when Lara is then attacked by the island's inhabitants.

Lara is forced, in self-defense, to pull the trigger on one of them. Even though they were going to kill her and physically assaulted her, they were still a human being and Lara pulls the trigger on one of them blowing their head off. An unpleasant sight and not in realization of what she has committed, Lara breaks down crying.

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What amplifies Lara's sadness and grief is her guilt. Lara's guilt is through the roof; she blames herself for the reason that they ended up on the island due to her suggestion. Throughout the journey, her teammates and other survivors are one by one dying to the deadly island in one way or another. And with each death, Lara's guilt is increased dramatically where she starts to develop a little tunnel vision: she doesn't care about anything but getting person x out of danger, this tunnel vision is dangerous and is a slippery slope, as sometimes saving person x could mean letting y and z die. She rendezvous with Roth, who tells her that he is hurt and will take time to recover, but she needs to climb a radio tower and call for help. She says that she doesn't know how to climb, and that she can't do it, but he gives her a small pep talk. Accepting that she's their only hope at getting out of the island, "let's hope I'm a fast learner then," Lara blurts before climbing the radio help and calling for help.

She succeeds and a plane comes to rescue them, but is struck by mysterious lightning. Lara insists on investigating the crash site, but Roth tells her that's suicide: The morality of the situation is not as black and white and that is something Roth is trying to instill in her. Her naiveness and delusional mindset, while noble, is not necessarily smart, ironically.

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Upon the situation where the pilot sent to help them is dying, Lara is still determined to go save him despite affecting the team's chances of survival. Roth tells her that she needs to make sacrifices sometimes, she defends herself saying "I know about sacrifice," where Roth corrects her by saying that she knows about loss, not sacrifice. As loss is a choice made for you while sacrifice is a choice you're willing to make. Lara is shaking her head in disbelief and is not having it with the discussion and simply says "I can't choose to let him die, Roth." before going on a task to save the pilot.

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Lara ultimately fails to save the pilot. And finds her self in a chain of unfortunate events, but she makes an important discovery: throughout navigating the island and raiding some tombs, Lara realizes that the island has a mystical energy that controls it and no one can escape the island alive. Lara has figured out the puzzle and knows that the solution to leaving this place is to confront its darkest secrets -- however, her teammates think she has gone insane and do not have any faith in her. In addition, some of the members subtly and passive aggressively mention how this is Lara's fault to begin with; which doesn't help Lara's already-in-shambles state of mind.

The group gets attacked and one of the savage inhabitants throw an axe at Lara, but Roth quickly turns his back to save Lara. The axe strikes Roth, and Roth dies. Lara is distraught is breaks down crying, as the only father-figure left in her life is now gone. One of her colleagues even blames Lara for Roth's death, but Lara has grown numb to the blame due to how much sadness and guilt she has accumulated. Lara snaps, and Roth's death makes her way more angry than she is sad. Determined she sets out to end the fuckery going on in the island. She picks herself up and heads to end it all.

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Lara puts two and two together and realizes that the doctor, Whitman, is not who he appears to be. She finds out he has been helping Mathias, the leader of the Solarii -- what the savage inhabitants call themselves -- and she is on a quest to personally finish him and his bullshit once and for all.

The last section of the game has Lara defeating waves and waves of foes. The last section of the game is Lara fighting, fighting and more fighting. It's the climax and summary of her experience on the island so far: she continuously fights through, no matter the odds.

And after much struggle, but much determination as well, she succeeds. She ends Mathias' life and Whitman dies in the process. Lara also single-handedly solves the puzzle of the mysterious force that controlled who escapes the island, realizing that a myth about a Sun Queen, Himiko, was in fact not a myth, but reality. Lara and the remaining survivors: Sam, Jonah and Reyes, set out to go home.

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One of the guys that came to rescue the team notices that Lara has changed. "From the look on your eye, I don't even want to ask what happened to you that island."

Lara doesn't comment. "We'll be home soon," he reassures Lara.
"I'm not going home," Lara says, and thus, a survivor was born. In general, the theme here is "to survive" in the game; it's constantly shown through cinematics, the side characters interactions, the combat, dialogue, gameplay segments, etc.


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The Ascension: Making Her Mark
"We become who we're meant to be."
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After surviving Yamatai, Lara Croft is understandably traumatized.. but more determined than ever. The girl who thought her very own father was delusional has opened up to the ideas of myths being reality after seeing it happen in person on the island. Her eyes have opened, and the options of where to go to next or what to confirm if it's real or myth are limitless. The events of the island has left her with some trauma and a hell lot of questions, and she sets out to find answers. First question to resolve is the sudden death of her father: now believing he was and has been right all along, his supposed "suicide" couldn't have been attributed to his "insanity" -- because he wasn't insane. Lara knows it, and the only thing that makes sense to her is to complete her father's only incomplete research; which coincidentally happens to be his last before his death. Lara now realizes that maybe not everything is what it seems, that perhaps a darker behind-the-scenes shenanigans are in play here.

Lara is resolving her trauma by going to therapy. The psychiatrist is amazed at her progress with coping, but is quite baffled at the tunnel vision she has developed; it's almost an obsession.

"When you're ready, open your eyes. I think we're making progress in these sessions. You say the flashbacks have stopped...
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This is excellent improvement, but I'm concerned that you're still shutting yourself away at home. It's important to gradually take steps into the outside world. Take some walks, maybe pick up a nice hobby. A girl your age should be exploring new horizons. I'd like to know you're taking care of yourself, for many people these traumas become a mental trap; they get stuck like a ship frozen on ice. There's another type of people.. do you know what happens to them, Miss Croft?"

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"We become who we're meant to be."​

Lara has overcome the sadness and angst accumulated during and after Yamatai, and the only emotion she feels now is confusion and she demands answers for it. She sets out to complete her father's last research, The Divine Source, also known as: the ability to become immortal. Lara's determination to complete her father's research is shown when Jonah, one of the few survivors from the island, is skeptical towards Lara's justifications of finding out whether it was possible to become an immortal. Her father's lover, Ana, doesn't encourage Lara either - she cites the insanity of Richard Croft and that to follow in his footsteps would lead to the same fate: death. This is foreshadowing in so many ways.

After much research, Lara decided to raid a tomb in Syria as her first clue in what to do next. She finds out that The Divine Source exists, and it's in Siberia. She then plans to go there as she's incredibly confident in her research, but Jonah checks her saying she is grasping at straws. She went from working late shifts at a pub to funding expeditions that will most likely be fruitless as the only main evidence Lara has is her gut feeling. (This is contrasting how in TR2013, the opposite would happen: she is constantly doubting her research but her friends encourage her). However, as she and Jonah argue they are attacked by a member of a cult group called Trinity - who are desperately searching for The Divine Source as well. Jonah now believes something is fishy, and agrees to go with Lara to Siberia.

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Lara and Jonah climb mountains upon mountains to reach the "rumored" Lost City, which supposedly holds The Divine Source. During their climb, Lara and Jonah are separated by an avalanche, but poor Lara gets the shitty end of the stick and falls to the other side of the mountain while Jonah was on the safer side of the avalanche. Hope her radio still works, she realizes how risky it must be for others to come and save her, she confidently grabs her radio and messages Jonah: "I'm alright, go back; please don't come to find me." (This contrasts what she said in TR2013 when things went south: crying "Roth come get me!", this details Lara's new found independence).

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Upon separation, she explores the Siberian wilderness alone and must eat to survive, the moment she sees a dead deer, she runs to skin it without much thought. This contrasts how in TR2013 she made a big deal out of killing the deer to eat it. Lara continues her search and finds out that Trinity has come here first. Their apparent leader, Konstantin, is a religious but ruthless murderer. Distracted by him, Lara is abducted by Trinity.

After being abducted, she wakes in a facility tied to a chair and in front of her is Ana, who's also tied to a chair. Ana is seemingly confused and starts asking Lara "where are we?!" Lara says that she's sorry and that she's the reason they abducted her, probably using her as leverage. Lara attempts to escape to save both of them, but Konstantin appears and begins strangling Ana while asking Lara about the whereabouts of The Divine Source. Lara honestly does not know, and begs him to stop... before realizing that Ana is faking being strangled. Ana is working with Trinity it seems, Lara is shocked; but is even more shocked when Ana has the audacity to try to recruit Lara into joining Trinity. To which her response is a no. fucking. way.

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Konstantin thinks Lara is useless then, and attempts to kill her before being stopped by Ana, who is revealed to be his very own biological sister, citing that Lara might still be useful to them. Konstantin then locks Lara up in a cell, in which she finds a mysterious cellmate named Jacob who requests that she helps him escape. She tells him that she is better off working alone and id not feeling trusting after having been betrayed by Ana. He tries to give her something in return to convince her: he offers his knowledge of the way around, to which she passive aggressively declines by confidently saying "I'm a fast learner." This contrasts when Roth told her that it was she who needs to climb, and said in disbelief "well, let's hope I'm a fast learner."

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Nothing seems ot be convincing Lara to help him out, so he cuts to the chase:
"I know that you're looking for The Divine Source," he tells her. Now Lara's listening. She breaks him out and they cooperatively escape the facility. After gaining his trust by helping his people fend off Trinity, he warns her that in order to get what she's looking for, she must pass through a place that will most definitely kill her. But Lara is determined to always shut down Jacob, "I'll take my chances." However, he still refuses to tell her the location of The Divine Source, Lara is fed up and tells him that she'll find it, with or without his help. He realizes her stubbornness and determination, and lets her find the Atlas, which is a map that shows the location of The Divine Source. Her determination to keep going is similar to to her determination to keep going in the first game, however the differences here are in the first game she wants to keep going as in keep surviving and escape the island. In Rise, she wants to keep going as in delve deeper into the territory and penetrate the city.

Lara succeeds in finding out the location of The Divine Source, which is placed on top of the Lost City. In order to get there, you have to climb, climb, climb and climb some more. The last section of the game is mainly climbing before a 2-parter boss fight. You use every climbing tool you've earned in the game for the last part of the game, the climbing arrows, the climbing axe, acrobatic jumps, the rope repelling and the grappling hook. The last part is even called "Ascension".

After killing Konstantin, she finds that Ana has beat her to The Divine Source. Ana is dying from sickness and wants to use it on herself. Lana's original plan for if the myth were to be real, was to take it and have it studied and researched as it could help the humanity and eliminate sickness and death. But what if the wrong person becomes immortal? The cost is too high, which is why Jacob never wanted Lara to find it. Now realizing this, Lara intends to destroy The Divine Source; and gives Ana a monologue about how death is a part of life, a part of being human. Ana, unconvinced, says that it's easy for her to say since she's not the one who's dying, but Ana is more baffled at how Lara is willing to hide away The Divine Source from the world and leave her father's reputation ridiculed for being delusional and insane, as proving The Divine Source is real would re-establish Richard Croft's reputation as respectable as he's been right all along. Lara looks down at the floor, before looking back at Ana and deciding that she's willing to make that sacrifice... This is detailing the growth she gained from Yamatai when Roth explained to her that sometimes, "the right thing to do" is not easy to determine, which is true even for Lara here, as she hesitated for a second when looking down at the floor, before willing to make a sacrifice for the greater good.

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Lara manages to take The Divine Source from Ana and successfully destroys it, and Ana is mysteriously executed by someone lurking in the shadows... In general, the theme here is "to rise". Lara's ascension in every context and meaning of the word. Lara's survival skills, rationality, learning, mindset, independence and drive, passion, truths come out as they rise to the top and literally physically: all of which are ascending in one form or another. This is Lara Croft at her most rational and where her obsession is at least at a healthy level, as opposed to her obsession in.....


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The End: Becoming the Tomb Raider
"After all I've sacrificed, I have to wonder... What will I become?"
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The darkest we will ever see Lara Croft, but ironically the most relatable: the tunnel vision Lara has developed in her journey to destroying The Divine Source has grown to something bigger than her. That experience has manifested into hatred, extreme hatred towards Trinity. If she was determined before, then now she's committed. She will end them and sabotage their plans no matter what. This manifestation leads her to act before thinking rationally. As a result, she will race Trinity to an artifact they're looking for. She does not know WHY they want it, but she knows that she wants to fuck up their plans regardless of their intention: she hates them, she wants to see them fail - it's tunnel vision at its best (worst?) form. Nothing matters, as long as she gains the satisfaction of seeing Trinity fall before her eyes.

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The artifact at hand is a Mayan dagger that if taken, can result in a devastating apocalypse that will end the world. Lara sets out to take the dagger before Trinity does, and she succeeds, but as a result she will indirectly end all life on Earth because of a selfish act. Like a person craving a high: they only suffer the consequence and regret the action during the comedown -- that's exactly what Lara is suffering from. She knows she fucked up, big time. Her impulsiveness to "save the world" is ironically what will end the world. This is a mistake she already did in TR2013, when Roth explained that she has to make sacrifices and the moral choice is not as black and white as she thinks, then she appeared to have learned her lesson in Rise when she makes the sacrifice at the end of letting her dad's reputation stay forever tarnished for the greater good, but now she has relapsed. And that is something a lot of people can relate to: sometimes even after making a mistake then learning a lesson from it, you might end up doing the exact same mistake down the line. The "relapse" also works when using her obsession with seeing Trinity fail as a "drug" and Lara gets a "high" when she fulfills her tunnel visioned task no matter what else suffers in the process.
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No hope -- or friends -- left, Lara is left alone and forsaken
The game hasn't been released yet, but from the gameplay we have so far; the game starts in a tomb with Lara saying "What is this place?" in a calm tone filled with intrigue. (This contrasts the beginning of the TR2013, where Lara says the exact same thing but in a scared tone, detailing Lara's experience and capabilities now) we also see the exact opposite spectrum of what's happening in the previous two games: In Tomb Raider, Lara is helped by her Endurance friends and stick to her side even after tension and blaming her for the fiasco; In Rise, Jonah, Sofia and Jacob all start out hostile but warm up to Lara's ideas an cooperate with her. In Shadow, she starts out friendly with Jonah and some folks (the friendliest - and funniest - we've ever seen Lara, in fact), but upon her selfishness she loses those friends. In addition, the metaphorical "rising" from Rise of the Tomb Raider is reversed: in Rise, a lot of the mechanics introduced had an emphasis on "ascension" like the climbing arrows and the grapple hook. You climb a lot at the beginning of the game and you climb even more at the end of the game. Whereas in Shadow, a lot of the mechanics have you "descending": the new rope repelling and underground water swimming have you descending into tombs or swimming into the depths of the underground. A metaphorical way to showcase that in this entry, Lara is "descending" into madness.
 
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OP
OP
AdaWong

AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,807
Raccoon City
What's most interesting is that in all three quotes by Lara in all three games, the word "become" shows up in different contexts; Lara appears to be either struggling with or comfortable with her fate and identity.

All three quotes appear in the announcement trailer for each game respectively, which are supposed to "set the tone" of the game. And I think the developers subtly show a fantastic idea of showing us Lara's state of mind in each game:

In Tomb Raider (2013), the quote "When all seemed lost... I found a truth, and I knew what I must become." signifies her will to survive, which the game is themed around. When everything was hopeless, she managed to fight through it and find her purpose.

In Rise of the Tomb Raider (2016), the quote "We become who we're meant to be" screams confidence and determination. She knows what she wants to be and she has fully accepted what her fate is. This signifies her overall healthy outlook in the game.


In Shadow of the Tomb Raider (2018), the quote "After all I've sacrificed... What will I become?" is filled with fear and doubt. She is afraid everything will be lost in vain, but she is also afraid of she will be - if it's not who she thought she would become. She is doubtful about her identity and is struggling to accept that she has no control over it anymore. She has lost herself, and what will the aftermath be is something we can only find out when the game launches.

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Shadow of the Tomb Raider releases September 14th!
(no I'm not paid to include this, I'm just an appreciative fan lmao)

Credits: Thanks to VictorXD from the TRF for inspiring this thread.
 
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ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
13,131
I don't understand why people call her whiny. Maybe its her voice acting but her actual dialogue includes little to no actual whining.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,963
Brazil
That's quite the write up! Just to chime in, I really like reboot Lara, though I think that in Rise they tried to rein in her inner thoughts too much, probably because of complaints. A shame.
 

Kryst

Banned
Jul 30, 2018
170
Me thinks you're over analyzing things.
Tomb raider has no themes it's an uncharted copy.
 

Zeouter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,619
Ireland
As interesting and full of potential as that sounds, I don't really feel any of that in the games as I play them, I feel like the narrative, the plot, the heart of the games is stated in the marketing and doesn't make its presence effectively felt in the games at all. I've been disappointed by them twice now.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,160
France
I appreciate the effort OP, but characterization is precisely the worst part about the reboot as far as I'm concerned.

Everything about Lara is shallow and bland, including the characters that surround her. And I absolutely can't relate to her because as you've unknowingly pointed out, her dialogue is extremely clichéd and uninspired.

They've tried to make this franchise evolve which is nice, but Lara's character seems to be stuck in last generation, or even earlier. She very much feels like a bog standard videogame character, and in a cinematic adventure game nowadays, it's just not good enough when you consider the competition.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
The most successful? It's not absolutely in terms of sales. And let's not talk about the "characterization". Lara is so annoying and incoherent with its actions and not realistic at all. If we are talking about the gameplay here is sure a step above the ND games but the narrative and the emotional part are absolutely bad executed. Maybe the story subject is not bad at all.
 

TissueBox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,164
Urinated States of America
WOW that OP mwaah!!

I will read this, er, eventually, I pledge with a banana in one hand, but I will say that I love the Tomb Raider reboot, and believe 2013's narrative to be its one stickler, along with the somewhat indomitably peachy VA... but the characterization is noble, her arc has a purpose, and from Rise onward (so, at the moment, Rise xP), she actually has a place worth being proud about; one in an expansive and intriguing game and setting. Which, in the end, as elaborated on in the post, is given a necessary foundation in the first.

Also, having been a fan of Rhianna Pratchett since early 2010's, I have my inclinations. ;P Nevertheless, the series moves onward now, and I only hope it goes up from here; Lara's development has plenty of positive space to foster in and seeing it as a gradual process can only suggest potential yet to come. If pulled off correctly, this trilogy can prove a retrospectively meaty origin story for Lara.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
The latest reboot Lara is never going to become classic Lara. The basic reason for this is that Crystal Dynamics decided that she needed to become a "likeable" and "relatable" character. This is one of the reasons her background and relationship towards her family wealth was changed so dramatically. Classic Lara is a rich, pampered asshole who fills her mansion with other people's shit that she tramped over their cold, dead bodies to steal. Classic Lara is a selfish asshole. Modern Lara has been reinvented into a character that, essentially, the audience would supposedly want to be friends with. Something that comes to mind is that American screenwriting guru Blake Snyder was critical of the Angelina Jolie Tomb Raider films because they focused on trying to make Lara seem "cool" and "sexy" instead of "likable". Modern Lara is a product of the Snyder school of screenwriting in that instead of being portrayed as a greedy, self-serving ice queen she is portrayed as heroic and self-sacrificial from the get-go. The most conspicuous manifestation of this idea is her relationship towards Sam in the 2013 game. Sam is used to remind the audience on a near constant basis that Lara cares about people other than herself, which is a heroic quality.

I don't think that reinventing the character is automatically a bad thing -- dramatically different interpretations of characters can be interesting -- but people expecting modern Lara to somehow form an origin story of the classic character are gonna be really, really disappointed. The way the developers reject Lara's classic and iconic dual pistols -- which even the recent live action film gleefully embraced -- in favor of turning her into some Katniss Everdeen-esque bow warrioress.

In hindsight, it's kinda interesting how that same year (2013), Crysis 3 attempted to reinvent Prophet as a bow-wielding warrior with significantly less success than Tomb Raider managed. Both properties take a Predator-esque approach to bow combat instead of, say, the Turok approach.
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Ultimately I think modern reboot Lara should be judged on her own merits. She's barely the same character as preceding interpretations, although I think the recent film Lara struck a kind of interesting balance.
 

HDMF76

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
She is so one dimensional and terribly realised I cant even understand how you can make such an in depth analysis of her.

The stories in the latest ones are stomach churningly bad to me. I really enjoy the gameplay but the characters, Lara included, are pathetic.

You have a talent there man, you could probably write a 4000 word essay about a grain of sand :)
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
I'm more worried about the change in level design with each game released, it should've stayed as a linear title like the reboot, which was also a much stronger title than Rise of TR
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,131
Thanks for the write up, OP. My main issue with the new games is that they take themselves too seriously. And Lara just comes across as a boring person. She was depicted better in the recent movies reboot.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
I appreciate the effort OP, but characterization is precisely the worst part about the reboot as far as I'm concerned.

Everything about Lara is shallow and bland, including the characters that surround her. And I absolutely can't relate to her because as you've unknowingly pointed out, her dialogue is extremely clichéd and uninspired.

They've tried to make this franchise evolve which is nice, but Lara's character seems to be stuck in last generation, or even earlier. She very much feels like a bog standard videogame character, and in a cinematic adventure game nowadays, it's just not good enough when you consider the competition.
I couldn't say it better. I appreciate the gameplay in TR, is surely better and deeper of Uncharted, but when we are talking of pure narrative or emotions, ND games put in embarrassment the CD job. And maybe some sense of humour could help them a lot, in their subject.
 

PalaceMidas

Member
May 19, 2018
269
I can't say I agree. The characterisation and indeed the character of Lara is by some distance the weakest aspect of the latest games.

Writing is the biggest problem but it's really not helped by some very stilted acting. I just don't feel I know this Lara. She could be anyone. I'm not even trying to argue that CORE's Lara was a well defined character (though to their credit, by the time Angel of Darkness rolled around, they were at least trying to get into her psychology a bit more) but game in, game out, I knew who Lara was. Borderline sociopath, cool, sophisticated, witty, rebellious, and ruthless. Even in Crystal's original reimagined trilogy (Legend, Anniversary, Underworld) I still recognised many of Lara's most iconic traits even if they were watered down by the 'mum and dad' plots they seem intent on sticking to the character since the Angelina movies.

I just don't see any of what Lara is in this latest incarnation and I don't buy into the "But it's a trilogy! She still has time to become that character!" because I just don't see it happening. I'm willing to be proved wrong.

I'm also not sure what we're going to gain from this The Last Revelation redux plot where Lara causes the apocalypse and must save the day. The reason why that plot worked in the original series is because we had three games of Lara being a reckless grave robber and it was only a matter of time before that behaviour came back to bite her. She then had to fix her mistake, nearly lost her life and was psychologically damaged and apparently out of practice ("I feel stronger now!" by AOD.

Where does this Lara go from causing the apocalypse? From a narrative sense, I don't see how this encourages her to become a hardened Tomb Raider.
 

Alethiometer

alt account
Banned
May 29, 2018
1,044
I find her extremely boring and generic. She was such a fun character in the previous series.
 

PalaceMidas

Member
May 19, 2018
269
Thanks for the write up, OP. My main issue with the new games is that they take themselves too seriously. And Lara just comes across as a boring person. She was depicted better in the recent movies reboot.

I agree with this. Not a great movie and again, the father plot is too present, but Alicia's Lara is what the games should've been trying to achieve.

She's young, a bit naive but has original Lara's courage, wit and strength. I just find game Lara a bit bland and morose.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,160
France
I couldn't say it better. I appreciate the gameplay in TR, is surely better and deeper of Uncharted, but when we are talking of pure narrative or emotions, ND games put in embarrassment the CD job. And maybe some sense of humour could help them a lot, in their subject.

I know the Uncharted comparison instantly comes to mind, but Lara is also vastly inferior to Aloy in Horizon, for example. Both franchises have similar issues when it comes to dialogue, but Aloy story and goal is so much more interesting. Also, they've tried to give her this cynical, doesn't-take-any-shit kind of personality which comes off as pretty funny sometimes. On the other hand, Tomb Raider has absolutely zero humor or self-awareness, which is its main problem imo.

I absolutely intend to play Shadow and hope they've improved Lara. And if not, I hope the next devs will have more ambition when it comes to writing, because such an iconic character deserves so much better.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,131
I couldn't say it better. I appreciate the gameplay in TR, is surely better and deeper of Uncharted, but when we are talking of pure narrative or emotions, ND games put in embarrassment the CD job. And maybe some sense of humour could help them a lot, in their subject.
Said this before and I'll keep saying it--even TLOU feels more light hearted than Tomb Raider. You can go dark and still add in some human moments. You care about Elle and Joel because we see them laughing together, fighting, crying, etc. And all the killing makes sense in that world. The brutality in the new TR games is out of place. And when you combine that with Lara's lack of personality--it makes the games a chore.

She's a treasure hunting heiress for goodness sakes. They're acting like she's Batman. We didn't need an origin story, and at this point--what is this an origin to? Not the original games lol
 

PalaceMidas

Member
May 19, 2018
269
Also, underwritten as it was given the era, there was something much more empowering in original Lara giving a fuck you to mum, dad, class, aristocracy and societal expectations of a women but doing her own thing in pursuing her passion - even if she was selfish, flawed and an asshole.

It's much more progressive than current Lara's life being defined by her father, his passions and how that influenced Lara.

The real shadow of the tomb raider is the shadow of her dad. I don't think they realise that by going down that narrative route, they rob an important part of Lara's individuality.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Also, underwritten as it was given the era, there was something much more empowering in original Lara saying giving a fuck you to mum, dad, class, aristocracy and societal expectations of a women but doing her own thing in pursuing her passion - even if she was selfish, flawed and an asshole.

It's much more progressive than current Lara's life being defined by her father, his passions and how that influenced Lara.

The real shadow of the tomb raider is the shadow of her dad. I don't think by going down that narrative route, they rob an important part of Lara's individuality.
Well said. Sums up my feelings perfectly.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
I have mixed opinions on new Lara.

When she first hit the scene in the reboot, I championed her as a mature and intelligent step forward for the character, humanizing her and breaking cleanly out of the mold of idealized video game sexpot. She was more than just the girl with the enormous boobs stuffed in the iconic tank-top in short shorts. She had self-doubt, she was inexperienced, she was smart but challenged in ways both physically and mentally to a breaking point the original Lara could dance around with ease. I found it, at the time, refreshing and much-needed.

My opinion of new Lara, however, has soured over the years. I excused the original characterization as a young Lara, inexperienced but growing, but as of the end of the second game she's just... unpleasant. There's snippets of it here and there, but I've come to realize the original Lara had a powerful sense of self-actualization and empowerment. Take away original Lara's boobs and sex appeal and you're still left with a deftly confident, boldly adventurous woman who was "The Tomb Raider" not because she was forced to be, or because she needed to "finish" what her daddy started, but because she herself had an unquenchable thirst for adventure, excitement, knowledge, and exploration. She's the Lara that turned her mansion into a glorified training ground, who exuded such confidence and charisma that she couldn't help but become the icon in the games industry that birthed legions of imitators but never replacements.

Reboot Lara has plenty of fine points, but she lacks THAT. She's in well-made games, but she's not a "fun" character, and by demystifying her "icon" image and grounding it in a character and narrative that robs her constantly of her agency and makes her more of a victim struggling to survive harrowing ordeals rather than the Indiana Jones-esque treasure hunter who lives for the thrill, it neuters the impact she once had. As my best friend once stated, she'd rather be original Lara than reboot Lara because reboot Lara is miserable and abused throughout her games, while original Lara has the fun, confidence, and pulpy adventures she actually wishes she could embody.

Shadow of the Tomb Raider isn't out yet, but I find it telling it's the third time we've been told "in this one, she becomes the Tomb Raider". Because ultimately, that's what I wanted all along. I don't want to be "Lara Croft - survivor", I want to be "Lara Croft - THE TOMB RAIDER".

So as someone who vehemently defended the original Reboot, I'm regrettably already hoping we get a new reboot soon that restores the thrilling sense of fun, humor, and style the original games had in excess but that is sorely lacking in the newer installments.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,131
Also, underwritten as it was given the era, there was something much more empowering in original Lara saying giving a fuck you to mum, dad, class, aristocracy and societal expectations of a women but doing her own thing in pursuing her passion - even if she was selfish, flawed and an asshole.

It's much more progressive than current Lara's life being defined by her father, his passions and how that influenced Lara.

The real shadow of the tomb raider is the shadow of her dad. I don't think by going down that narrative route, they rob an important part of Lara's individuality.
Well said. Old Lara is a better feminist icon. They really overcompensated with the new one. I'm fine with them getting rid of the giant boobs and short shorts, but they didn't have to kill her personality. The old one was more independent.

With that said, I hope when they reboot it again they give her back some sexuality. Because there's nothing wrong with a woman knowing that she's attractive and wearing things that compliment her shape.

You see this a lot with generic "strong" female characters. Maybe they should give her a love interest. ND is doing it with Elle in TLOU 2 because it helps ground a character, and most humans are looking for love. IDK, they had good intentions, but they messed up.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,832
I think in isolation they've mostly done a good job with Lara herself but the quality of the plot and supporting characters in the reboot games is so poor it drags her down with them. The game and by extension Lara would be better served by trying to be less intense, in my opinion. It hasn't really nailed it but I don't think that's Lara's characterisation at fault.
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,259
Me thinks you're over analyzing things.
Tomb raider has no themes it's an uncharted copy.
This is such a disappointing comment. There are writers and story boarders working on these games, and they do a great job. They created themes, wrote characters, and created a narrative arc. Just because the premise is similar to another game doesn't mean you can... for some reason imply the collective efforts of their work are baseless and shallow.

That's a pretty gross sentiment.
 

SweetVermouth

Banned
Mar 5, 2018
4,272
I tried 3 times to play through the 2013 Tomb Raider but dropped the game every single time after about 3 to 4 hours. I have never been a big fan of the Tomb Raider games, the only one I actually beat was Underworld which I liked but the 2013 one was not enjoyable to me.

I do however have to say that they've done a great job in changing her appereance.
 

PalaceMidas

Member
May 19, 2018
269
Well said. Old Lara is a better feminist icon. They really overcompensated with the new one. I'm fine with them getting rid of the giant boobs and short shorts, but they didn't have to kill her personality. The old one was more independent.

With that said, I hope when they reboot it again they give her back some sexuality. Because there's nothing wrong with a woman knowing that she's attractive and wearing things that compliment her shape.

You see this a lot with generic "strong" female characters. Maybe they should give her a love interest. ND is doing it with Elle in TLOU 2 because it helps ground a character, and most humans are looking for love. IDK, they had good intentions, but they messed up.

Yeah, I've got mixed feelings about it.

On one hand, why shouldn't Lara have a love interest? Why should the fear of that level of humanisation being controversial, stop them from something that nearly every other character in any form of fiction, is allowed.

On the other hand, how many characters in popular culture have survived over twenty years as an independent woman without ever being given a love interest? That's quite the feat and perhaps one they shouldn't remove lightly.

Of course that all comes down to the very idea that sex and sexuality associated with Lara is what led us with the neutered version we have today. There's no denying that original Lara was sexualised (though I'll argue moreso in peripheral media that the games proper) but as has been said, we've went too far the other way. Again, as well as being independent, formidable and strong, Lara was aware of, asserted and exploited her own sexuality for her own means. It was a weapon she utilised when necessary and never let anyone take advantage of. She was charming and gorgeous - and she knew it. And that's powerful.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
First off, you're wrong when you say that this is the origin story of classic Lara. They're two completely different characters and their personalities and backstories are completely incompatible with one another. They're not the same person and reboot Lara is never going to magically turn into classic Lara. Just not gonna happen.

As for reboot Lara's characterisation? It's... not good. Every aspect of her character screams "Look at me! I'm RELATABLE!" in a super artificial and cringe-worthy way. The basic premise of her being from a rich family, having a huge inheritance waiting for her but instead wanting to mingle with "normal" people, not touch her family fortune and work at a bar? (Which, btw, is not at all relatable. How many 18-21 year-olds do you know who would just turn down a huge amount of money like that? Especially if they've got big dreams and expensive expiditions to fund.) The way she always blurts out her every waking thought and feeling as if to say "Hey, I've got feelings, too, just like you! Aren't I relatable?" (Completely ignoring the fact that most people do not spell their every feeling out loud to themselves like that.) And let's not forget her reaction to killing which shows just how superficial and forced this whole "relatability" angle is. They wanted to make her "relatable" and "human" (seemingly without actually knowing what either of those words really meant) but they didn't want it badly enough to actually build the gameplay around it in any meaningful way. One second, cutscene Lara is crying over her first human kill, the next, gameplay Lara is mowing down hordes of enemies.

Their approach to making Lara relatable seems to have been to make her as "normal" and average as possible. Lara used to be tall? Well, the average woman isn't tall so we can't have that. Lara is a rich aristocrat? Well, we can't mess too much with the backstory but the average woman isn't rich so let's just say she doesn't want to touch her inheritance for some contrived reason. (And let's not make her accent too posh, yeah?) Lara kills people and other creatures without remorse? Well, we're trying to rip off Uncharted here but the average woman isn't a serial killer so let's just have a cutscene where she cries around a bit after her first kill. There's just this basic conflict of trying to squeeze a character who is by definition extraordinary and abnormal into one who is perfectly average. And relatablity really doesn't come from being ordinary or average, that's just a false equivalency on their part. Your character can be a rich, tall, cold-blooded aristocrat who went to posh boarding schools and has never had to worry about money in her life and still be relatable. And as a side note, relatability isn't necessarily what makes a character good or interesting. You can create a great, interesting character who isn't relatable whatsoever. (That may not always work super well for video game protagonists but, at least in theory, it could.)

Furthermore, I just loathe the whole parent backstory. It's the most trite, cheesy and uninspired character motivation one could ever come up with and just screams Hollywood cliché. Why, why did either of her parents need to have been an adventurer/treasure hunter/archaeologist? Why did she need to be an orphan? Why did (at least part of) her motivation need to be following in her parents' footsteps? It's just bad writing, period.

In Rise, her characterisation mostly just felt disjointed and nonsensical. It was as if they knew that they had to make her appear a bit "stronger" and tougher but either didn't really know how to go about it or couldn't quite let go of the "weaker" version of the character from the 2013 game, I don't know. She keeps flipping back and forth between being pseudo-badass (which, honestly, almost always came off as fake) and weak and "helpless" (as helpless as you can be when you're mowing down hordes of mercenaries). She'll be overly sceptical in one scene, then super trusting and naive in the next. And my goodness, the way they tried to present her as a goody-two-shoes during her interactions with the tribe... (Who, btw, spoke perfect American English without the hint of a foreign accent despite supposedly having been hidden in the middle of the Siberian wilderness for hundreds of years.) It's like she was this stereotypical unpopular kid in high school jumping at every chance they got to try and get in with the "cool kids".

Which is another problem I have with reboot Lara's characterisation. (And maybe this will change in Shadow, who knows, but I doubt it.) It feels like there's this fear of portraying her in any way that could be construed as outright immoral, ruthless, unsympathetic, etc. She always has to be the hero who saves the day, she always has to end up on the right side of the argument, always has to be helpful and nice to the "good guys", etc. And if there's ever a hint of her maybe veering off the straight and narrow, the game always ends up finding a way of ultimately making her come out as morally superior after all. (And yes, people will say that Shadow is going to fix this because she'll be making a huge mistake in the beginning of the game. But the way she seemingly reacts to it and talks about it afterwards makes me suspect that, again, the game will find a way to make her come out as your average, generic Hollywood action hero by the end of it.)

In essence, I find reboot Lara's characterisation to be cheesy, cringe-worthy, uninteresting and inconsistent.

PS: Reboot Lara is also not the most successful version of the character. If you measure success in the absolute number of game copies sold, sure, but that completely ignores how much the market for video game has grown since the 90s, not to mention the character's success outside of games. It's a disingenuous argument. (Also a somewhat hypocritical thing to say in the OP of a thread that's supposedly not about comparing classic and reboot Lara to one another.)
 
OP
OP
AdaWong

AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,807
Raccoon City
First off, you're wrong when you say that this is the origin story of classic Lara. They're two completely different characters and their personalities and backstories are completely incompatible with one another. They're not the same person and reboot Lara is never going to magically turn into classic Lara. Just not gonna happen.

Oh, so now you're the developer? Girl, the gamemakers themselves claim that -- I'd rather take their word for it honestly.

As for reboot Lara's characterisation? It's... not good. Every aspect of her character screams "Look at me! I'm RELATABLE!" in a super artificial and cringe-worthy way. The basic premise of her being from a rich family, having a huge inheritance waiting for her but instead wanting to mingle with "normal" people, not touch her family fortune and work at a bar? (Which, btw, is not at all relatable. How many 18-21 year-olds do you know who would just turn down a huge amount of money like that? Especially if they've got big dreams and expensive expiditions to fund.) The way she always blurts out her every waking thought and feeling as if to say "Hey, I've got feelings, too, just like you! Aren't I relatable?" (Completely ignoring the fact that most people do not spell their every feeling out loud to themselves like that.) And let's not forget her reaction to killing which shows just how superficial and forced this whole "relatability" angle is. They wanted to make her "relatable" and "human" (seemingly without actually knowing what either of those words really meant) but they didn't want it badly enough to actually build the gameplay around it in any meaningful way. One second, cutscene Lara is crying over her first human kill, the next, gameplay Lara is mowing down hordes of enemies.

When exactly did I say that the specific part of being a 20 yo working at a bar is relatable? She's relatable when looking at a journey as a whole. Which is I'm conveying during the overall making a mistake --> forced to resolve it --> learn from it --> relapse she's going through.

You're literally missing the whole point. Lara is again forced to kill to survive, as long as she had the will to survive (which is what the game is themed around as I explicitly mention in the OP) she was willing to do anything; including killing a person for the first time and then a dozen more after. When she confesses to Roth about resorting to killing, he even tries to comfort her saying that it must have not been easy. Her response? "it scary just how easy it was."

Their approach to making Lara relatable seems to have been to make her as "normal" and average as possible. Lara used to be tall? Well, the average woman isn't tall so we can't have that. Lara is a rich aristocrat? Well, we can't mess too much with the backstory but the average woman isn't rich so let's just say she doesn't want to touch her inheritance for some contrived reason. (And let's not make her accent too posh, yeah?) Lara kills people and other creatures without remorse? Well, we're trying to rip off Uncharted here but the average woman isn't a serial killer so let's just have a cutscene where she cries around a bit after her first kill. There's just this basic conflict of trying to squeeze a character who is by definition extraordinary and abnormal into one who is perfectly average. And relatablity really doesn't come from being ordinary or average, that's just a false equivalency on their part. Your character can be a rich, tall, cold-blooded aristocrat who went to posh boarding schools and has never had to worry about money in her life and still be relatable. And as a side note, relatability isn't necessarily what makes a character good or interesting. You can create a great, interesting character who isn't relatable whatsoever. (That may not always work super well for video game protagonists but, at least in theory, it could.)

First off, I don't care about appearance? I never once discussed appearance? In fact, I put it as a disclaimer at the top to not compare what Lara looks/used to look. I'm looking at something deeper. Again, you're still assuming that (for some reason) when I say "relatable" I mean it for literally every. single. thing. she's done. That's not what I mean. Obviously none of us climb 84029320 mountains, kill 3943 soldiers or talk to ourselves for gameplay purposes. Again, what seems to me is that you're still comparing old Lara with this Lara. Which defeats the whole purpose, they're two different people because they're at two different points of their lives. You are not the same person you were 10 years ago I'm sure, or even 2 years ago. There's NO standard here for what Lara should be; I'm looking at this iteration as it was the only one we know a lot about.

Furthermore, I just loathe the whole parent backstory. It's the most trite, cheesy and uninspired character motivation one could ever come up with and just screams Hollywood cliché. Why, why did either of her parents need to have been an adventurer/treasure hunter/archaeologist? Why did she need to be an orphan? Why did (at least part of) her motivation need to be following in her parents' footsteps? It's just bad writing, period.

Well ain't that an opinion? I'm sorry you dislike it. I, alongside many others, love it! What does that say about it? It says that whether you like or hate it is subjective. And just telling me that you hate the plot is not enough of a reason to believe that it's objectively "cheesy and uninspired".

In Rise, her characterisation mostly just felt disjointed and nonsensical. It was as if they knew that they had to make her appear a bit "stronger" and tougher but either didn't really know how to go about it or couldn't quite let go of the "weaker" version of the character from the 2013 game, I don't know. She keeps flipping back and forth between being pseudo-badass (which, honestly, almost always came off as fake) and weak and "helpless" (as helpless as you can be when you're mowing down hordes of mercenaries). She'll be overly sceptical in one scene, then super trusting and naive in the next. And my goodness, the way they tried to present her as a goody-two-shoes during her interactions with the tribe... (Who, btw, spoke perfect American English without the hint of a foreign accent despite supposedly having been hidden in the middle of the Siberian wilderness for hundreds of years.) It's like she was this stereotypical unpopular kid in high school jumping at every chance they got to try and get in with the "cool kids".

It's a little ironic that you're saying her characterization was all over the place but then your post here is even moreso -- I'm not sure what exactly are you criticizing. According to you, she jumps between being skeptical and trusting immediately with no logic behind it; care to provide a few examples? I don't recall that happening. Then you're criticizing about her role to the tribe; are you suddenly complaining about the white savior act? First off that's a different issue in video gaming in general. Second of all, she's not even presented as a good person. She literally tells Jacob that she'll help his people ONLY because it's synonymous with her objective and not because she has the time in the world. How the tribe people sound is totally irrelevant? Like, the choice the casting director made is completely irrelevant to what we're talking about here -- are you sure you're not just trying to spite the reboot?

Which is another problem I have with reboot Lara's characterisation. (And maybe this will change in Shadow, who knows, but I doubt it.) It feels like there's this fear of portraying her in any way that could be construed as outright immoral, ruthless, unsympathetic, etc. She always has to be the hero who saves the day, she always has to end up on the right side of the argument, always has to be helpful and nice to the "good guys", etc. And if there's ever a hint of her maybe veering off the straight and narrow, the game always ends up finding a way of ultimately making her come out as morally superior after all. (And yes, people will say that Shadow is going to fix this because she'll be making a huge mistake in the beginning of the game. But the way she seemingly reacts to it and talks about it afterwards makes me suspect that, again, the game will find a way to make her come out as your average, generic Hollywood action hero by the end of it.)

Where is this fear the developers have that you're talking about? They constantly show Lara making mistakes in the first couple of games at a few points, which build up the whole narrative I explained above that in Shadow she will have to face the consequences of her irrational actions, which again, have been developing to become an unhealthy habit. And again, your personal disbelief in something (in this case, a game that's not even released yet) is irrelevant to the discussion. It really seems to me that you're trying to discredit the reboot at every chance you get -- so I'm gonna ask you again, are you criticizing objectively or are you just trying to spite this Lara?

In essence, I find reboot Lara's characterisation to be cheesy, cringe-worthy, uninteresting and inconsistent.

PS: Reboot Lara is also not the most successful version of the character. If you measure success in the absolute number of game copies sold, sure, but that completely ignores how much the market for video game has grown since the 90s, not to mention the character's success outside of games. It's a disingenuous argument. (Also a somewhat hypocritical thing to say in the OP of a thread that's supposedly not about comparing classic and reboot Lara to one another.)

If you find her character to be cheesy, sure that's your opinion. But it's not inconsistent, at least if we look at the three games solely and analyze that. Nothing she does is out of character for her at that point. And by the way, I included that sentence exactly for this reason: as you have shown before, you clearly hold a grudge against the current reboot and try to discredit it whenever you can.
 
OP
OP
AdaWong

AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,807
Raccoon City
The most successful? It's not absolutely in terms of sales. And let's not talk about the "characterization". Lara is so annoying and incoherent with its actions and not realistic at all. If we are talking about the gameplay here is sure a step above the ND games but the narrative and the emotional part are absolutely bad executed. Maybe the story subject is not bad at all.

But let's, which is why I wrote the long ass OP lmao. If you find Lara to be annoying and incoherent then good for you. But that doesn't mean that characterization is not there or that it's not good. I'm not going to talk about UC as the thread is not about gameplay (or even TR's gameplay), and it is actually the most successful, but we're not going to discuss that.

Well said. Old Lara is a better feminist icon. They really overcompensated with the new one. I'm fine with them getting rid of the giant boobs and short shorts, but they didn't have to kill her personality. The old one was more independent.

With that said, I hope when they reboot it again they give her back some sexuality. Because there's nothing wrong with a woman knowing that she's attractive and wearing things that compliment her shape.

You see this a lot with generic "strong" female characters. Maybe they should give her a love interest. ND is doing it with Elle in TLOU 2 because it helps ground a character, and most humans are looking for love. IDK, they had good intentions, but they messed up.
Also, underwritten as it was given the era, there was something much more empowering in original Lara giving a fuck you to mum, dad, class, aristocracy and societal expectations of a women but doing her own thing in pursuing her passion - even if she was selfish, flawed and an asshole.

It's much more progressive than current Lara's life being defined by her father, his passions and how that influenced Lara.

The real shadow of the tomb raider is the shadow of her dad. I don't think they realise that by going down that narrative route, they rob an important part of Lara's individuality.

We're not really talking about pushing the envelope or being progressive here, though. I said it in the Op and I'll say it again: these games are not innovative or break any borders. However, that doesn't mean there isn't anything good there. People are still hung up on one thing: they have a "standard" of what Lara should be. Yeah, I love the older no-fucks-given Lara in the classic games, but that Lara's backstory is almost non-existent. Who's to say that the Lara you love wasn't defined by her father and how he influenced her when she was younger? That's the point I feel some people do not even want to attempt to at least try and grasp.


I think in isolation they've mostly done a good job with Lara herself but the quality of the plot and supporting characters in the reboot games is so poor it drags her down with them. The game and by extension Lara would be better served by trying to be less intense, in my opinion. It hasn't really nailed it but I don't think that's Lara's characterisation at fault.

I agree, I think every single supporting character is awfully executed (I really do, especially the first game lol). But Lara herself is what's fascinating to me. But yes, it's as if they had spent all their resources on Lara's character that they ran out of character to give the other characters.

Lara the queen of self talk. I love the games, but this really strikes me every time.
She really is the Queen of Talking to Herself lmfao
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
Well written OP, a good summary of why I can't stand the new Lara. Grief and guilt, fight and survival...ugh... my Lara was fun! (also, the 90's, early 2000's pop-culture icon phase will never come back, that was Lara Croft at peak popularity!)

Fun is why I like Nathan Drake and his friends, it's why I like Marcus Phoenix and his team of caricatures... without fun I couldn't stand spending my time with them and this is why I don't want to spend time with the new Lara.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
This is such a disappointing comment. There are writers and story boarders working on these games, and they do a great job. They created themes, wrote characters, and created a narrative arc. Just because the premise is similar to another game doesn't mean you can... for some reason imply the collective efforts of their work are baseless and shallow.

That's a pretty gross sentiment.
While i agree with the overall premise of your post, the writers didn't do a "great job" in the reboot series. The writing is terrible.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Best thread ever made?
Yup, best thread ever made!

As far as I'm concerned new-Lara is fine, I'm mostly okay with her at this point, I'd definitely prefer if she had a more cocky attitude but the games are great. I triple dipped on 2013, double dipped and 100-percented Rise and have the Croft edition preordered for the X. Can't wait to follow Lara on her final adventure for this trilogy! :)
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,297
My problem is not with Lara, I think her journey is clear enough and well written in the OP, my problem are the characters who she interacts with as part of that story. Too often the game will throw in archetypes for Lara to interact with like the traitor, the sacrifice or selfless defender, the villain with little or no redeeming qualities. I think the narrative in these games has been held back by the characters around Lara effectively being Plot device 1 and 2. Jonah has been the consistent throughout (as he will appear again in Shadow) and I just hope that relationship is pushed to its limits and we seen both the wholesome side but breaking point of it, of the things Lara does to the real, tangible relationships she's built. Nate in the Uncharted games works because of the relationships we've seen him build and the way we see him interact with each. I think these games have a good central gameplay loop but I haven't liked how the narrative is structured to tell the plot generally and the side characters to me are the biggest problem with it.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Thinking a bit harder on this, I think a lot of what makes "reboot Lara" less interesting as a character now is simply the circumstances they put her in. The THEME of the games has changed, and as a result they don't permit Lara to have a smidgen of fun or enjoyment in her profession. The excitement I, as a player, had in prior games as a globe-trotting adventurer testing myself against ancient puzzles and mythological or extinct creatures is entirely lost and replaced with a violent, grim, gritty, bleak approach.

The original games focus on Lara's triumph over obstacles, while the new games are defined by the tragedy and trauma she endures surviving obstacles. It's the equivalent of taking Superman - the heroic, noble, self-less hero who does good because he desires to do so - and replacing him with the dark and grim and miserable version that does it because he feels pressured to, that everyone fears and is skeptical of, and who is defined by moments of loss, anger, and brooding.

Just because one has "more character traits" doesn't make one a better character, in and of themselves. Fleshing out Lara is a fantastic idea, and I still support it. But we're at the point where it's not the CHARACTER that defines her but the ENVIRONMENT around her that defines her. The death of her friends, brutalization and constant physical torture, the shadow of her father's legacy, the constant self-loathing, her screw-ups and failures. Those are what leave their marks upon this interpretation of the character - physical and symbolical.

I don't need her in tiny shorts doing backflips while dual-wielding pistols to shoot at a rampaging T-Rex (though that's still awesome), but I would love to have her be pleasant to be around. After all, I spend all of my time with her in the game.
 
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OP
OP
AdaWong

AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,807
Raccoon City
My problem is not with Lara, I think her journey is clear enough and well written in the OP, my problem are the characters who she interacts with as part of that story. Too often the game will throw in archetypes for Lara to interact with like the traitor, the sacrifice or selfless defender, the villain with little or no redeeming qualities. I think the narrative in these games has been held back by the characters around Lara effectively being Plot device 1 and 2. Jonah has been the consistent throughout (as he will appear again in Shadow) and I just hope that relationship is pushed to its limits and we seen both the wholesome side but breaking point of it, of the things Lara does to the real, tangible relationships she's built. Nate in the Uncharted games works because of the relationships we've seen him build and the way we see him interact with each. I think these games have a good central gameplay loop but I haven't liked how the narrative is structured to tell the plot generally and the side characters to me are the biggest problem with it.
I totally agree, I can't fucking stand anyone that isn't Lara in the reboot. But the love for Lara overcompensates in a way lol

Best thread ever made?
Yup, best thread ever made!

As far as I'm concerned new-Lara is fine, I'm mostly okay with her at this point, I'd definitely prefer if she had a more cocky attitude but the games are great. I triple dipped on 2013, double dipped and 100-percented Rise and have the Croft edition preordered for the X. Can't wait to follow Lara on her final adventure for this trilogy! :)
Me too! I have the Croft edition preordered for PS4. Cannot wait for the finale, I got to speak with some of the developers prior to PAX and they seemed incredibly confident in this game, one of them told me word for word that "we're in for a treat." and that they are intentionally keeping a lot of amazing stuff unrevealed for gamers to experience for the first time. Seriously can't wait!
 

Mexen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,934
9/10 thread (that yellow "become" is impossible to read using DayERA theme).

While I prefer Anniversary Lara, I still like Shadow Lara. I think the team has put in a lot of effort to redefine her in line with the times.
 
OP
OP
AdaWong

AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,807
Raccoon City
Thinking a bit harder on this, I think a lot of what makes "reboot Lara" less interesting as a character now is simply the circumstances they put her in. The THEME of the games has changed, and as a result they don't permit Lara to have a smidgen of fun or enjoyment in her profession. The excitement I, as a player, had in prior games as a globe-trotting adventuring testing myself against ancient puzzles and mythological or extinct creatures is entirely lost and replaced with a violent, grim, gritty, bleak approach.

The original games focus on Lara's triumph over obstacles, while the new games are defined by the tragedy and trauma she endures surviving obstacles. It's the equivalent of taking Superman - the heroic, noble, self-less hero who does good because he desires to do so - and replacing him with the dark and grim and miserable version that does it because he feels pressured to, that everyone fears and is skeptical of, and who is defined by moments of loss, anger, and brooding.

Just because one has "more character traits" doesn't make one a better character, in and of themselves. Fleshing out Lara is a fantastic idea, and I still support it. But we're at the point where it's not the CHARACTER that defines her but the ENVIRONMENT around her that defines her. The death of her friends, brutalization and constant physical torture, the shadow of her father's legacy, the constant self-loathing, her screw-ups and failures. Those are what leave their marks upon this interpretation of the character - physical and symbolical.

I don't need her in tiny shorts doing backflips while dual-wielding pistols to shoot at a rampaging T-Rex (though that's still awesome). But I would love to have her be pleasant to be around. After all, I spend all of my time with her in the game.

This is probably the best criticism I've read on here. While I don't wholeheartedly agree, I see it. Apparently, Shadow is going to both show us Lara at her darkest but also at her funniest and most charming/pleasant. So it'll be interesting to revisit this once the game releases!