Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,787
I think what is being overlooked in the "is so and so a variant?" discussion is the answer is they aren't a variant by nature of changing the flow of time. They are variants if they disrupt the flow of time in a way that was not anticipated or included in the sacred timeline. Is that characters actions and "variance" part of the sacred timeline? If so, they aren't variants.

So, Steve Rogers actions were part of the sacred timeline and expected. Loki's were not.

Exactly. I think it's too easy to fall into the trap of thinking any time travel shenanigans or alternate versions are necessarily things the TVA abhors. That's not the case. They're okay with any of that, as long as it's happening in accordance with the plan that the Timekeepers laid out.

It's not some strict law or issue in physics. The Sacred Timeline is an arbitrary, aesthetic preference.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,380
Richmond, VA
Now that's interesting. In which case, maybe the Time Keepers also don't "exist" yet from the linear perspective of the sacred timeline and end up being created in a future movie?

More like they've always existed and never existed as far as linear time is concerned. Lol. Time shenanigans!

EDIT: Maybe season 1 is the destruction of the TVA, movies happen, then Season 2 of Loki is the creation of the TVA?

Exactly. I think it's too easy to fall into the trap of thinking any time travel shenanigans or alternate versions are necessarily things the TVA abhors. That's not the case. They're okay with any of that, as long as it's happening in accordance with the plan that the Timekeepers laid out.

It's not some strict law or issue in physics. The Sacred Timeline is an arbitrary, aesthetic preference.

Right, although there could be a more specific reason they chose this timeline we aren't aware of yet.
 
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jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,589
Isn't Thanos a deviant? And if so, does that mean Thor should be stronger than him in the comics?

Thanos isn't a Deviant, he's an Eternal with "Deviant Syndrome," which is a mutation that makes him look funky (like a Deviant) and makes him unusually strong. He is to Eternals what Mutants are to humans.

When you get to the lower scale, things get pretty murky. Low-level gods will be weaker than Eternals, high-level Eternals will be stronger than gods. It's more of an "on-average" thing. Thanos is essentially peak for Eternals, Thor is peak for gods, and they're on pretty equal footing.
 

HeySeuss

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,909
Ohio
One thing that's bothering me is that the 2014 timeline is the timeline where the entire Thanos army just mysteriously disappeared one day. You'd think that the timeline where the snap never even happens would deviate greatly from the "Sacred Timeline".
I don't think his army that was defeated was the 2014 army, because only Thanos' ship went through time, not his army. The army was the present day army that might not have even known Thanos was dead, or if they had heard rumors, gladly showed up to fight with their returning leader.

All he would have to do is say get everyone here to Midgard and prepare to fight beside me and they would be there pretty quickly by spacejumping.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,538
Ah ok that makes sense, thanks. I remember Thor being that powerful too when he becomes takes the throne and fought Galactus and Doom (though he had the Phoenix's help with Doom).
Doom who basically had like all the major legacy powers Iron Fist, Sorcerer Supreme,iirc ghost rider Starbrand etc
(Also Thor is cheating because his dad is Odin and turns out his mom is a fucking Elder God but he also works out alot but he's built different)
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,759
More like they've always existed and never existed as far as linear time is concerned. Lol. Time shenanigans!

EDIT: Maybe season 1 is the destruction of the TVA, movies happen, then Season 2 of Loki is the creation of the TVA?
We're in Moffat Doctor Who territory now!

I don't think his army that was defeated was the 2014 army, because only Thanos' ship went through time, not his army. The army was the present day army that might not have even known Thanos was dead, or if they had heard rumors, gladly showed up to fight with their returning leader.

All he would have to do is say get everyone here to Midgard and prepare to fight beside me and they would be there pretty quickly by spacejumping.
Thanos' ship is pretty massive, I assume his army in Endgame all just dropped out of there. I don't think they otherwise could've gotten to Earth in the few minutes that pass between Thanos coming through the portal and the fight starting.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,538
We're in Moffat Doctor Who territory now!


Thanos' ship is pretty massive, I assume his army in Endgame all just dropped out of there. I don't think they otherwise could've gotten to Earth in the few minutes that pass between Thanos coming through the portal and the fight starting.
Isn't Thanos army fucking huge, its at least enough to conquer entire planets

So you're likely right that the Endgame army was just whoever he had on the ship not his entire army
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,945
Canada
Is Loki more like on a high-tier Eternals or lower-tier Gods power level for example? I'm not sure what kinds of feats he's capable of in the comics.

I wonder where other pantheons are in all of this that's been going on, come to think of it...
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
31,886
Is Loki more like on a high-tier Eternals or lower-tier Gods power level for example? I'm not sure what kinds of feats he's capable of in the comics.

I wonder where other pantheons are in all of this that's been going on, come to think of it...
Many of them have no interference rules or enforced limited scope. They interact with each other but outside of guys like Hercules and Ares sneaking out they tend to keep to themselves outside of cosmic/reality level threats
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,538
Is Loki more like on a high-tier Eternals or lower-tier Gods power level for example? I'm not sure what kinds of feats he's capable of in the comics.

I wonder where other pantheons are in all of this that's been going on, come to think of it...
Loki magic alone makes him more powerful than most Asgardians outside like Thor, Hela, Enchantress (she's not strong just matter of being a powerful asgardian sorceress), etc
Also because he's a thor villain he's a better fighter than most asgardians not as good as thor or even Sif probably but enough for the occasionally like melee
 
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Runner

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,783
I'm trying to wrap my head around how the TVA, Celestials and other cosmic existences in marvel intersect and it's making my head hurt.
 

DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,430
Under my Hela Hela
I don't think his army that was defeated was the 2014 army, because only Thanos' ship went through time, not his army. The army was the present day army that might not have even known Thanos was dead, or if they had heard rumors, gladly showed up to fight with their returning leader.

All he would have to do is say get everyone here to Midgard and prepare to fight beside me and they would be there pretty quickly by spacejumping.

The Children of Thanos have to be from 2014 given they're all long dead by 2023 in the core ,timeline.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,134
Enjoyed the first episodes when I finally got to watch it this weekend.

I do have to take issue with one thing about this episode and it's not the show itself. It's a certain subset of Marvel fans who are taking this episode as some sort of "nail-in-coffin" to the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and its non-canon nature. Sure, at this point we all pretty much know that it's not canon, but Loki's statements about Coulson are not some magic bullet that "proves" anything.

They all conveniently forget the fact that this Loki ISN'T the Loki we saw up through Endgame. As far as this Loki is concerned, he JUST killed Coulson. He'd have no way of knowing he was eventually revived even if AoS were canon.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Enjoyed the first episodes when I finally got to watch it this weekend.

I do have to take issue with one thing about this episode and it's not the show itself. It's a certain subset of Marvel fans who are taking this episode as some sort of "nail-in-coffin" to the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and its non-canon nature. Sure, at this point we all pretty much know that it's not canon, but Loki's statements about Coulson are not some magic bullet that "proves" anything.

They all conveniently forget the fact that this Loki ISN'T the Loki we saw up through Endgame. As far as this Loki is concerned, he JUST killed Coulson. He'd have no way of knowing he was eventually revived even if AoS were canon.

It really feels like if AoS were considered canon, that Mobius would point out that Coulson got better, in addition to the fact that 'killing' him got the heroes to work together, and making Loki feel like even more of a failure in the process.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I'm trying to wrap my head around how the TVA, Celestials and other cosmic existences in marvel intersect and it's making my head hurt.

The Celestials in the MCU are likely far weaker than their comic book incarnations. Ego was a Celestial, after all, and he wasn't really that impressive, plus Knowhere is the severed head of a Celestial so there are clearly beings in the universe that can decapitate them. Obviously the Celestials must be far more powerful than the Eternals or others like them such as Wanda or Carol, but that's something of a moot point.

I would assume the Time Keepers are far more powerful than the Celestials in the MCU since, whereas the Celestials don't appear to act outside of their universe, the Time Keepers clearly act on a multiversal scale. They're probably even be more powerful than beings such as Dormammu.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,538
The Celestials in the MCU are likely far weaker than their comic book incarnations. Ego was a Celestial, after all, and he wasn't really that impressive, plus Knowhere is the severed head of a Celestial so there are clearly beings in the universe that can decapitate them. Obviously the Celestials must be far more powerful than the Eternals or others like them such as Wanda or Carol, but that's something of a moot point.

I would assume the Time Keepers are far more powerful than the Celestials in the MCU since, whereas the Celestials don't appear to act outside of their universe, the Time Keepers clearly act on a multiversal scale. They're probably even be more powerful than beings such as Dormammu.
Knowhere is from the comics
 

Dysun

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Oct 25, 2017
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Miami
That was a great first episode. Much stronger hook than the first two D+ shows, looking forward to seeing where this goes.
 

Cipherr

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Oct 26, 2017
13,548
I think what is being overlooked in the "is so and so a variant?" discussion is the answer is they aren't a variant by nature of changing the flow of time. They are variants if they disrupt the flow of time in a way that was not anticipated or included in the sacred timeline. Is that characters actions and "variance" part of the sacred timeline? If so, they aren't variants.

So, Steve Rogers actions were part of the sacred timeline and expected. Loki's were not.


Exactly. This words it so much better than I could.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,520
That is my assumption. I believe the Time Keepers are "born" at the end of time itself, then go to the beginning of time to assure their own creation by protecting the "sacred timeline" that leads to their birth. So they're not protecting the timeline from damage or interference or even trying to prevent a multiversal war, they're just protecting their own existence.

It's no real different to what Doctor Strange did in Infinity War to ensure Thanos was defeated in Endgame, just on a multiversal scale.

But, that's impossible per Endgame time travel rules.
 

Deleted member 7051

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But, that's impossible per Endgame time travel rules.

It's called a predestination paradox or a causal loop. It's frequently used in science fiction, where Event A causes Event B and Event B causes Event A, so it's not like it's actually impossible.

Or are we going to pretend that Bruce Banner is a master of time travel? How the heck is he going to know what civilisations can pull off millions of years in the future?
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,520
It's called a predestination paradox or a causal loop. It's frequently used in science fiction, where Event A causes Event B and Event B causes Event A, so it's not like it's actually impossible.

Or are we going to pretend that Bruce Banner is a master of time travel? How the heck is he going to know what civilisations can pull off millions of years in the future?

Time travel rules that in this case are purely governed by the TVA

That's what I'm getting at, it IS impossible per the dumb rules established in Endgame. This is the pseduo-science that Tony tells us. There is no actual time travel in Endgame, rather you travel to another timeline/dimension separate from your own. Within this new timeline, you can do whatever the hell you want. You can kill your grandfather. You can kill yourself. You can remove Infinity Stones. And it won't affect your timeline because its not possible to travel backwards within your own timeline. Thus, you cannot create a casual loop. Time travel is not actually possible.

In IW, the Ancient One notes how remove the stones from her timeline fucks with her timeline and makes it go dark. But, its only her timeline. Bruce just promised they'd being them back to not be a dick and screw them over, but he (or rather Steve) didn't actually have to do this. Their timeline was never in any danger if they decided not to do so.

Honestly, the whole "rule" was some bullshit because Endgame didn't want to do BTTF time travel and "predestination" would be too hard to pull off without screwing with the other films. So, they opted for a time travel that isn't really time travel.
 

UnderSiege

Member
Mar 5, 2019
2,720
That's what I'm getting at, it IS impossible per the dumb rules established in Endgame.
All that it would take is to say that they couldn't do that form of time travelling with their limited tech/capabilities, but the TVA can. I don't really see a reason why they couldn't just say that. The explanations of Hulk and the Ancient One in Endgame are applicable to the way they travelled through time. Now, the TVA? Who knows what they can do.

Whatever they do with time travel in Loki, I'm assuming it'll contradict, or perhaps shift, Endgame's rules somewhat.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,520
All that it would take is to say that they couldn't do that form of time travelling with their limited tech/capabilities, but the TVA can. I don't really see a reason why they couldn't just say that. The explanations of Hulk and the Ancient One in Endgame are applicable to the way they travelled through time. Now, the TVA? Who knows what they can do.

Whatever they do with time travel in Loki, I'm assuming it'll contradict, or perhaps shift, Endgame's rules somewhat.

I fully expect this, not that I care. Expecting logic or lore consistence in comic book stuff, especially MCU stuff, is a fool's errand. I just find it funny that they are so quickly already willing to just forget about Endgame's nonsense time travel logic.

Endgame wanted Avengers to fight Thanos again, and kill him, and contrived away through writing that would allow that despite their time travel story. As using BTTF rules would mean a bunch of heroes might vanish meanwhile a causal loop would be impossible to implement. Thus, we get traveling to other timelines/dimensions.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,759
tbh I always found Banner's explanation of time travel in Endgame to be extremely torturous writing. "Your past becomes your future and your present becomes your past" is such an unnecessarily convoluted way to explain it! Just say that changing something in the past doesn't change your future, and it creates an alternate future instead. The obvious analogy should've been time travel isn't like Back to the Future, it's like Back to the Future 2! I'm not even sure how you'd square Endgame's rules with how Doctor Strange manipulates time with the Time Stone...the depiction there was clearly Strange rewinding and forwarding time along one timeline, but if you were to put it up against Banner's rules in Endgame, then this shouldn't be possible, and that actually the prime MCU timeline was obliterated by Dormmamu years ago.

In any event, in-universe the TVA is the authority on time travel and Banner was making it up as he goes, so I'll just take whatever Loki says over Endgame. I think there was an interview with the showrunner where he said as much recently, and that time travel in Endgame is just as "the Avengers understand it".
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,520
tbh I always found Banner's explanation of time travel in Endgame to be extremely torturous writing. "Your past becomes your future and your present becomes your past" is such an unnecessarily convoluted way to explain it! Just say that changing something in the past doesn't change your future, and it creates an alternate future instead. The obvious analogy should've been time travel isn't like Back to the Future, it's like Back to the Future 2! I'm not even sure how you'd square Endgame's rules with how Doctor Strange manipulates time with the Time Stone...the depiction there was clearly Strange rewinding and forwarding time along one timeline, but if you were to put it up against Banner's rules in Endgame, then this shouldn't be possible, and that actually the prime MCU timeline was obliterated by Dormmamu years ago.

In any event, in-universe the TVA is the authority on time travel and Banner was making it up as he goes, so I'll just take whatever Loki says over Endgame. I think there was an interview with the showrunner where he said as much recently, and that time travel in Endgame is just as "the Avengers understand it".

Yep, but I just assumed the Time Stone uses "Magic" so it gets to do that where Tony was using "real" science and which has limitations. The problem is they still can't use BTTF2 logic as you can still change the past (and thus the future) through your actions. Endgame doesn't want anything in the MCU past to change, but they also want to be able to kill enemies from the "past" as well, consequence free.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,759
Yep, but I just assumed the Time Stone uses "Magic" so it gets to do that where Tony was using "real" science and which has limitations. The problem is they still can't use BTTF2 logic as you can still change the past (and thus the future) through your actions. Endgame doesn't want anything in the MCU past to change, but they also want to be able to kill enemies from the "past" as well, consequence free.
Banner saying you can't change the past never made sense to me, because they do change the past several times! Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Thanos and his army suddenly blink out of 2014, infinity stones and Mjolnir are taken away. The whole reason Steve returns the stones and the hammer is to undo (most of) these changes to the past. If they weren't capable of changing the past, then they wouldn't be capable of undoing these changes either.

It's that changing the past doesn't change your original future -- and creates new futures, or branches, built on those changes -- but the past itself is very changeable! And it still allows them to kill past enemies consequence free. When Nebula shoots her 2014 self, she doesn't fade away like Marty, because it only affects the Nebula of that alternate 2014.

Whatever!
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,960
I fully expect this, not that I care. Expecting logic or lore consistence in comic book stuff, especially MCU stuff, is a fool's errand. I just find it funny that they are so quickly already willing to just forget about Endgame's nonsense time travel logic.

Endgame wanted Avengers to fight Thanos again, and kill him, and contrived away through writing that would allow that despite their time travel story. As using BTTF rules would mean a bunch of heroes might vanish meanwhile a causal loop would be impossible to implement. Thus, we get traveling to other timelines/dimensions.

The MCU's time travel rules are basically DBZ/DBS Trunks Saga rules. XD
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Popping in to this thread and I feel like Loki seeing his future on film, just endless pages and pages arguing about the mechanics and consequences of time travel from here to eternity.
As someone who enjoys reading fan reactions and speculation in these MCU threads and followed very regularly every week in the discussions for Wandavision and TFatWS and I think just the reaction from the first episode of Loki was the final straw that broke the camel's back for me. MCU threads always come with it's fair share of people nitpicking and doing their best CinemaSins impressions about how terrible things are, but after these Disney+ shows, it's really become insufferable and sucked all the fun out of reading comments.

TFatWS wasn't even a mystery or sci-fi like Wandavision and Loki, since it was mostly pretty straight forward, but even then there are people arguing for pages upon pages about the believability of the bank scene and if it was actually trying to imply a racist undertone and it's like people can't just just engage with the story in the way that it's presenting itself plainly and doubting intention of the writers when they are already being a bit on the nose specifically for that reason so people don't get miss what they are trying to say or give it the benefit of the doubt when it is veering of course where every character's motivation isn't immediately clear, or when there are small aspects that "don't make sense" in the sci-fi logic right now if you think about some obscure contradiction you picked out that ruins everything to you.

I'm basically going to stick with the people who watch on the day of release and the discussion that happens there, because I feel the quality of the discourse only drops off as the week goes on.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Banner saying you can't change the past never made sense to me, because they do change the past several times! Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Thanos and his army suddenly blink out of 2014, infinity stones and Mjolnir are taken away. The whole reason Steve returns the stones and the hammer is to undo (most of) these changes to the past. If they weren't capable of changing the past, then they wouldn't be capable of undoing these changes either.

It's that changing the past doesn't change your original future -- and creates new futures, or branches, built on those changes -- but the past itself is very changeable! And it still allows them to kill past enemies consequence free. When Nebula shoots her 2014 self, she doesn't fade away like Marty, because it only affects the Nebula of that alternate 2014.

Whatever!
You are saying what Banner is trying to explain. He is saying "you can't change your past" to them because that is literally true for a person experience time linearly, even when traveling to the past. That's even in how he phrases that line " If you go into the past, that past becomes your future, and your former present becomes the past, which can't now be changed by your new future!" They just gloss over the part where going to the past and messing with it almost inevitably creates branches, although that creates messiness, but only for the narrative, not for the logistics of how their time travel works.

Beyond that, he's using that line responding directly to the other characters, and the audience, who believe that all fictional time travel works according to Back to the Future rules. It's really not that complex.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,960
Before the next episode drops, just wanted to quickly drop my thoughts on the last one since I've more been responding to other people here than actually sharing what I thought, lol.

All things considered, really loved it. Easily the strongest pilot of the bunch, namely because it wastes no time diving straight into the meat of its premise. Wandavision and FAWS both deliberately take very gradual approaches in order to build their premises over time, while Loki sets up the TVA, gets this new Loki up to speed with working with them, and sets up the main mission of hunting down this other Loki all in episode 1. Plenty of room for twists but otherwise extremely efficient in getting the ball rolling.

It's been brought up but do have to commend Hiddleston for fitting right back into the 2012 Loki's mindset so damn well. The fandom's noted how bizarre Loki's more megalomaniacal tendencies were in Avengers compared to both before and since, and the show deserves a lot of kudos for actually bringing that state of the character back and deconstructing it. Part of that's helped by Owen Wilson's exceptional performance as Mobius, and the buddy-comedy relationship he and Loki have is very well done.

I really like the TVA and its aesthetic and all the weirdness around it, but goddamn that twist with the Infinity Stones just shoved in a desk drawer was so good. It legitimately rocked me, as a fan since day 1, to see the powerful artifacts that the entire MCU has revolved around literally reduced to office-space tchotchkes. I feel like I'm staring into the abyss thinking about it, and so it only makes sense for Loki to be driven to a literal existential crisis. Leave it to a Rick & Morty writer to make the human feel so alien, and leave it to a Rick & Morty writer to know how to make one feel so small.

As someone who enjoys reading fan reactions and speculation in these MCU threads and followed very regularly every week in the discussions for Wandavision and TFatWS and I think just the reaction from the first episode of Loki was the final straw that broke the camel's back for me. MCU threads always come with it's fair share of people nitpicking and doing their best CinemaSins impressions about how terrible things are, but after these Disney+ shows, it's really become insufferable and sucked all the fun out of reading comments.

TFatWS wasn't even a mystery or sci-fi like Wandavision and Loki, since it was mostly pretty straight forward, but even then there are people arguing for pages upon pages about the believability of the bank scene and if it was actually trying to imply a racist undertone and it's like people can't just just engage with the story in the way that it's presenting itself plainly and doubting intention of the writers when they are already being a bit on the nose specifically for that reason so people don't get miss what they are trying to say or give it the benefit of the doubt when it is veering of course where every character's motivation isn't immediately clear, or when there are small aspects that "don't make sense" in the sci-fi logic right now if you think about some obscure contradiction you picked out that ruins everything to you.

I'm basically going to stick with the people who watch on the day of release and the discussion that happens there, because I feel the quality of the discourse only drops off as the week goes on.

I honestly do agree with a lot of this sentiment. Somehow fan theories have become this precious legal tender in the online discourse, and people scramble to dissect and analyze shit the moment it drops, and the discourse just get increasingly dumb and toxic as shit moves on. And the Youtuber takes haven't fucking helped - fucking Nando dropped a video recently on this and what started as "people have forgotten what it's like to get too caught up in fan theories" became "actually the fan theories are pretty hype, c'mon Marvel step it up" and the wagons cycle none the wiser.

Like, this is all supposed to be fun and games, fucking chill out and don't get lost in your own sauce. Jeez.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,343
Ok so I forgot the schedule. The new episode is three hours from now? Or is it three hours and 1 day from now?
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
I honestly do agree with a lot of this sentiment. Somehow fan theories have become this precious legal tender in the online discourse, and people scramble to dissect and analyze shit the moment it drops, and the discourse just get increasingly dumb and toxic as shit moves on. And the Youtuber takes haven't fucking helped - fucking Nando dropped a video recently on this and what started as "people have forgotten what it's like to get too caught up in fan theories" became "actually the fan theories are pretty hype, c'mon Marvel step it up" and the wagons cycle none the wiser.

Like, this is all supposed to be fun and games, fucking chill out and don't get lost in your own sauce. Jeez.
Yeah, that Nando video hit the nail right on the head about the phenomenon that I had increasingly started noticing just as Wandavision went along. The crazy amount of weekly engagement for these Disney+ Marvel shows is great, but so much of the discourse gets so toxic. People take shit way too seriously it reminds me a lot of Star Wars fans now.

I got excited a few month ago with the prospect of getting new MCU episodes almost every week for the rest of the year and now I'm like, nah, give us a bit of a break between shows.