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I just Watched The Last Jedi, why was it controversial??
- Thread starter konka
- Start date
It's a movie thematically about failure. Therefore, failure happens in it. That's the point. That's not bad writing, that's you not connecting to the themes.
Counterpoint though Anakin was winning pod races with the force with zero training as a little kid.
TLJ basically presents Rey as an anti-Vader. Anakin was born to balance the force because there was too much light. The force chose Rey because there was too much darkness, thus unbalancing the force, especially since Luke had cut himself off from the force. As Snoke says something like "and so the light rises to meet the dark. I had supposed Skywalker, but it chose you instead."
It always strikes me as useless to argue about this when you have a vague mystical force that can dues ex machina literally anything. Also funny that fans bitched about the PT taking the "mysticism" out of the force by assigning it power levels and shit... then the ST puts the mysticism back in and people complain about there NOT being power levels
Wasn't Anakin actually, like, terrible at pod racing? We know he was a natural pilot and the Force augmented his reflexes but I don't think he even finished a race before the Jedi showed up. That kind of use of the Force is more along the lines of Ezra unknowingly using the Force to perform crazy feats of acrobatics before even meeting Kanan.
You have to admit Rey using the Force to control someone's mind is way beyond anything Luke or Anakin showed in Episode IV and I respectively or anything Ezra showed in the first few episodes of the first season.
I don't disagree that Rey was chosen by the Force and I actually like that a nobody from nowhere was chosen instead of a Skywalker to balance the Force, but I still maintain that mind control was totally overkill for someone with no training in the Force at all.
Yes the Force can be used as a deus ex machina but that's just an excuse for lazy writing. There's plenty else she could have done with the Force to escape that cell that wouldn't have been so over the top.
The speculation BS could be completely avoided if they had filled all the cracks with exposition. It's not clunky storytelling if it stops fan nitpicking. It is clearly necessary.
It's a summer blockbuster and you're complaining about it being over the top?
Everyone fails in ESB, and yet the film's plotting is impeccable. It's not about themes. Themes don't excuse poor story structure.
Considering Luke's miracle shot to destroy the death star, I really don't think anything is too over the top. You can just put "it was the force" on to anything it'll make sense. It's like magic. A wizard did it lol
Your original criticism had nothing to do with structure but the end result (failure)
Well, it's not the first polemic piece made by Rian Johnson lol
He made Breaking Bad's Fly episode, which a lot of people also thinks it's a waste and add's nothing to the series lol
He made Breaking Bad's Fly episode, which a lot of people also thinks it's a waste and add's nothing to the series lol
It's not about the fact that Finn fails.
It's about the fact that you could write the entire subplot out of the movie completely, and the film wouldn't miss a beat as long as you gave Hux or someone like one extra line of dialogue.
Some random things I remember.
1. How is there gravity in space? I'm referring to the bombers dropping bombs on a enemy ship at the beginning. They are in space, but the bombs are falling downward toward the enemy ship. Wouldn't they just hover around and not fall down?
2. The pink/purple haired lady wasn't a good character.
3. The whole side story with fin and rose felt pointless. Also, those horse things will just get captured again, so I really don't know what they accomplished.
4. Why couldn't the first orders ship just go slightly faster and blow up the rebels ship?
5. The forced relationship between fin and rose, or whatever that was.
6. Everything about the Princess Leia in space scene
7. admiral ackbar
8. Why are the rebels just now using light speed as a weapon?
9. Luke Skywalkers implantation was strange, especially the end.
10. Benicio del ToroS character.
11. Captain Phasmas implementation. Basically a throw away charter.
Again, it's been awhile since I saw it in theaters so I could be misremembering things, and I could be missing other issues I had with the movie.
Also, people can dislike this movie because it wasn't a good movie. It's not always politically driven.
1. How is there gravity in space? I'm referring to the bombers dropping bombs on a enemy ship at the beginning. They are in space, but the bombs are falling downward toward the enemy ship. Wouldn't they just hover around and not fall down?
2. The pink/purple haired lady wasn't a good character.
3. The whole side story with fin and rose felt pointless. Also, those horse things will just get captured again, so I really don't know what they accomplished.
4. Why couldn't the first orders ship just go slightly faster and blow up the rebels ship?
5. The forced relationship between fin and rose, or whatever that was.
6. Everything about the Princess Leia in space scene
7. admiral ackbar
8. Why are the rebels just now using light speed as a weapon?
9. Luke Skywalkers implantation was strange, especially the end.
10. Benicio del ToroS character.
11. Captain Phasmas implementation. Basically a throw away charter.
Again, it's been awhile since I saw it in theaters so I could be misremembering things, and I could be missing other issues I had with the movie.
Also, people can dislike this movie because it wasn't a good movie. It's not always politically driven.
Yeah, but he also directed Ozymandias which is one of, if not the best episode of any TV show ever.
The Battle of Crait literally wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Poe and Finn's plan. The Battle Of Crait is the literal climax of the film.
Luke's biggest obstacle when it came to learning the force was his own self doubt. Not his force exp lvl.
Luke learned how to use a mind trick after seeing it once. Ezra was full of self doubt while he learned the force. There's a fundamental difference between Rey, Ezra, and Luke, Rey never questions whether or not something is possible. Ezra does:
And so does Luke:
When Luke says "Reach out" Rey just does it. And that's why she succeeds. Because unlike Ezra, Luke, and the portion of the audience that so very easily self inserts into that type of character, she doesn't ask stupid questions.
Three years later and a scene in TLJ literally dedicated to explaining the reason why Rey beat Kylo for the people who didn't get it, and yet we still have people who didn't get it....
"THE ACT SPLIT YOUR SPIRIT TO THE BONE, YOU WERE UNBALANCED, BEATEN BY A GIRL WHO HAD NEVER HELD A LIGHTSABER!"
The majority of the audience and critics got the point, it's not the filmmaker's fault that some people didn't get it, as we still have people questioning Rey beating Kylo years after the fact despite a scene literally dedicated to spelling out what was explicitly shown in TFA. Doesn't help that there's a ton of overlap between the detractors and the "actually the prequels were good" bullshit, because that's basically a generation who grew up on shit storytelling and clunky exposition in SW films.
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It didn't add to the plot much so yeah that's valid. But it did add to the thematic message and helped build the world out more giving us a look at war profiteers and stuff
The scene where Rey "dives in" in the dark side hole when Luke told her to feel the force was very emblematic. She just accepts the force and goes straight on it without asking questions.
There's gravity IN the ship and that's enough. They are falling downward in space because they started falling while inside the ship and are just keeping their momentum.
I always find it weird when people bring up bombs falling in space when we saw that already in ESB.
Is this a troll list? I can't even tell anymore. Everything here is either purely subjective, or just plain wrong. Just take the first one on that list: no they wouldn't just "hover around" because there is artificial gravity inside Star Wars ships and inertia is a thing.
Yeah, you have me there. It's a kind of superpower or magic with no predefined limit, only the limits of the people using it. We just need to suspend our disbelief with the Force.
Not far off, but what you're leaving out is how many #3's basically were baselessly accused of being #1's or #2's. Some of the old OTs here were a mess. And the sentiment still pops up here and there.
I always fight it weird that people try to debate science when it comes to a series about magic space wizards with space battles that purposefully emulate WW2 tactics and imagery, does SW try to make things believable in context? Yes. Does SW follow any logic at all when it comes to Science? Fuck no. We block laser gun blasts in star wars with a laser sword and space has sounds and explosions.
Judging by how many people are super particular about the power level of force users relative to the amount of training being shown explicitly on film, the fourth group is composed of Dragon Ball Z fans.
Saw it last night and the humor was garbage and forced at times. It felt like I was watching a bad cartoon. There is time for humor here and there. But that scene with when Ren finally meets Luke and she gives him the lightsaber and he goes "Meh" and tosses the shit behind him seemed like it was something that would be in a parody film like Space Balls. The film was all over the place and the long Skype session with Kilo and Rey was long for no reason. I didn't enjoy anything about this film at all. Rouge One continues to be my favorite.
OP
OP
Now you're just being pedantic. Regardless of your opinion of the prequel trilogy and shows like The Clone Wars and Rebels, they are our most clear examples of the training Jedi undergo.
It's really not that weird to wonder why all that is being overlooked. It's not like the prequel trilogy is no longer canon just because folks didn't like them.
Showing Jedi training has to actually serve the film that it's in. When Empire first debuted, the audience only had Obi Wan's wikipedia summery of the Force to go on, so Luke training with Yoda gave the film an avenue to further explore the Force and what it is. So by 2017, the audience already has a good grasp on the Force. In fact the initial lesson Rey is taught is already the basics that the audience has already known since Empire. What saves that scene from being redundant and unnecessary to the audience is that it also establishes new information, like how Luke has cut himself off from the Force. The other lessons on Ahch-To serve as vehicles for the debate between Rey's optimism and Luke's pessimism.
Once their drama has reached its conclusion and Rey decides to face Kylo without Luke, there is no more need for training scenes in the movie. The training scenes are there to serve the movie, not for the movie to luxuriate in training sequences that we have already seen in other decompressed media like Rebels and The Clone Wars. We were never shown Anakin training in the prequels because the movies didn't require them. And if the demand for training sequences is rooted not in how it would enhance the movie, but rather rationalizing how character X could possibly beat character Y in a fight, then yes actually you just want Dragon Ball Z.
It's so easily replaceable with two lines of dialogue.
Officer: "Sir, we're detecting several dozen small energy readings in the vicinity of the rebel flagship."
Hux: "They're trying to fool us by fleeing their dying ship. They must not be aware of the power of our latest sensors. Commander, fire upon those escape vessels!"
That shouldn't be possible. It's a very clumsily assembled story
I just watched it today for the first time, and I didn't think it was that bad at all. Or even bad. I thought it was pretty good.
Why would be they be scanning for energy readings? Their focus was solely on the flagship which was running out of fuel incredibly quickly. On top of that, they were cloaked until the FO find out and knew what to look for.
Finn was put into a garbage sub plot with a terrible new character who says dumb things
Poe has a stupid story that doesn't match his character from the first movie
Leia can use the force with no prior establishment and uses it in space all weird like
It was too long
It had bad writing for the dialogue
The main plot was an elongated version of an episode of battlestar galactica
Poe has a stupid story that doesn't match his character from the first movie
Leia can use the force with no prior establishment and uses it in space all weird like
It was too long
It had bad writing for the dialogue
The main plot was an elongated version of an episode of battlestar galactica
Any number of sci-fi reasons that don't particularly matter. The point is that something like 40% of the movie ultimately serves no purpose except to get Benicio Del Toro in a position to tell Hux about the escape pods, which he learns about via a really dumb coincidence anyway. And there are other ways it could have happened, or the FO could have disabled and boarded the flagship and found it empty and decided to search the nearby planet of Crait. The B plot for your second biggest character (on the hero side) shouldn't be so disposable.
And if the whole point was to be subversive and play on the theme of failure, then the film doesn't earn that at all. Benicio happens to overhear some random conversation and figures everything out? It's insanely contrived.
Even if it works, as in there are no gaping plot holes, and A leads to B leads to C, it's still very shoddy storytelling.
Poe barely had a character in TFA, I still say Holdo(and Leia to a much lesser extent) forgiving him so easily and not throwing him out the airlock was the real "worst" thing about that storyline.
I don't disagree.
I'm merely pointing out the fact that Lucas did pay attention to the EU and would actually get quite involved on certain projects. He just never considered himself beholden to anything the EU did, though he would try to stay relatively consistent when he could.
No I'm not. Both responses I got to "Why is the TLJ bad, give me legit arguments?" were "shoddy storytelling" (lol) and "Canto Bight was unnecessary" (complete bullshit).
Real talk I was paying attention to fan theories in the years and months leading up to The Last Jedi with everybody trying to connect the dots into what they thought were mysteries especially concerning Snoke, Luke, and Rey. Now to be fair it's not entirely their fault because the previous movie conditioned those guys to assume those would be extrapolated on in the other two movies, especially in the next movie.
However that's not how film making works especially when there's a change in directors. Thor Ragnarok wasn't intended to be a comedy but it was and Justice League was supposed to be two movies until it wasn't and hell, this happened with the original trilogy as well. Those things happen as movies ramp up into production. Rian Johnson was set to write and direct while most of the heavy hitters in Force Awakens took a step back. The broad outline is still there but the things different film makers value are different. JJ Abrams loves to set up mysteries because he feels like audiences will be excited for those aspects while Johnson feels like the story alone is enough to do that. That's why these elements of mystery were dialed back in favor of emphasizing themes and making the characters far more nuanced. This man directed the best episodes of Breaking Bad that's what he does best.
So that's what's causing the divide. The people who value story straight up love this movie. It's a damn good story that's executed perfectly. But the people who wanted those questions to be answered were unsatisfied because it just didn't matter. So I could see why the other side would be so dissappointed, they felt like Snoke, Luke were wastes (and ok, Snoke was a waste) and the questions regarding Rey's parents were a wash and ok but did we really need Snoke to straight up be Palpatine again when Kylo Ren is far more developed and makes for a better final villain or have Rey be part of some major family in-universe because everything has to come back to the Skywalkers or Kenobis again? But because those dots weren't connected the way fans didn't want those same guys on Youtube are now making even worse click-bait trashing on it.
And no I'm still not straw-manning this is just my hypothesis.
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The climax isn't the only thing that canto night affects, it directly affects Rose and Finn as people, which directly affects their actions after they leave the planet. You can't remove Canto Bight without substantial rewrites of the film.
Totally not trolling. I will admit I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan, but still enjoyed 3-6.
Lol "disposable".
Leads directly to the climax of the movie and it's tied directly to two main character's arcs.
And that would have literally thrown out two character arcs, not to mention that this is something literally applicable to every movie in the OT.
It was a bad movie and other people liked it. Star Wars is a passionate subject for some people.
It really isn't.
There's no other movie where you could just write out one of the main characters and have it affect so little.
I can understand why people like it or don't like it, but why is it so polarized? Why are people who didn't enjoy it so angry and vitriolic about it? Why are people who love it so convinced that anyone who hates it is some kind of bigot or manchild? It's baffling to me.
This is missing the point. The movie is about the characters and their development and how each of them learns through failure. Cutting out one character's plot may not greatly affect another's, but it doesn't need to. The Last Jedi is not meant to be JUST Rey's story, it's Finn's and Poe's as well.
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Okay then.
A New Hope doesn't really have a B plot. Between ESB and ROTJ, can you think of a major character's storyline that could be cut, and the story as a whole would be the same with a few cosmetic tweaks?