Hamill was incredible, but I was more speaking for the new characters
I'm still laughing that this Reddit-ass line made it into a final draft
It'a great and "Reddit-ass line" makes literally no sense.
Hamill was incredible, but I was more speaking for the new characters
I'm still laughing that this Reddit-ass line made it into a final draft
It's a movie thematically about failure. Therefore, failure happens in it. That's the point. That's not bad writing, that's you not connecting to the themes.GTFO with this condescending shit. I've seen TLJ three times.
The entire Finn subplot amounts to exactly one thing: indirectly (via Benicio) alerting the FO to the escape pods being launched for Crait. That's it.
It just isn't good storytelling, especially when you compare it to a masterclass in storytelling like ESB.
Counterpoint though Anakin was winning pod races with the force with zero training as a little kid.Luke had basic training in the Force from Obi-Wan, enough to consciously connect to it, and he struggled super hard to even so much as pull his lightsaber to him.
Rey had zero training of any kind and was not only able to use the Force to control another person's mind, a quite advanced Force technique that took a prodigy like Ezra years to learn, but was able to connect with the Force as strongly as Ben in their duel and that she was capable enough with a lightsaber to beat the guy trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke. Her experience fighting on Jakku really would not prepare her for a fight against a Jedi, let alone someone strong enough to kill his fellow students and peers that had also been trained by Luke Skywalker.
Counterpoint though Anakin was winning pod races with the force with zero training as a little kid.
TLJ basically presents Rey as an anti-Vader. Anakin was born to balance the force because there was too much light. The force chose Rey because there was too much darkness, thus unbalancing the force, especially since Luke had cut himself off from the force. As Snoke says something like "and so the light rises to meet the dark. I had supposed Skywalker, but it chose you instead."
It always strikes me as useless to argue about this when you have a vague mystical force that can dues ex machina literally anything. Also funny that fans bitched about the PT taking the "mysticism" out of the force by assigning it power levels and shit... then the ST puts the mysticism back in and people complain about there NOT being power levels
Wasn't Anakin actually, like, terrible at pod racing? We know he was a natural pilot and the Force augmented his reflexes but I don't think he even finished a race before the Jedi showed up. That kind of use of the Force is more along the lines of Ezra unknowingly using the Force to perform crazy feats of acrobatics before even meeting Kanan.
You have to admit Rey using the Force to control someone's mind is way beyond anything Luke or Anakin showed in Episode IV and I respectively or anything Ezra showed in the first few episodes of the first season.
I don't disagree that Rey was chosen by the Force and I actually like that a nobody from nowhere was chosen instead of a Skywalker to balance the Force, but I still maintain that mind control was totally overkill for someone with no training in the Force at all.
Yes the Force can be used as a deus ex machina but that's just an excuse for lazy writing. There's plenty else she could have done with the Force to escape that cell that wouldn't have been so over the top.
It's a movie thematically about failure. Therefore, failure happens in it. That's the point. That's not bad writing, that's you not connecting to the themes.
Considering Luke's miracle shot to destroy the death star, I really don't think anything is too over the top. You can just put "it was the force" on to anything it'll make sense. It's like magic. A wizard did it lolWasn't Anakin actually, like, terrible at pod racing? We know he was a natural pilot and the Force augmented his reflexes but I don't think he even finished a race before the Jedi showed up. That kind of use of the Force is more along the lines of Ezra unknowingly using the Force to perform crazy feats of acrobatics before even meeting Kanan.
You have to admit Rey using the Force to control someone's mind is way beyond anything Luke or Anakin showed in Episode IV and I respectively or anything Ezra showed in the first few episodes of the first season.
I don't disagree that Rey was chosen by the Force and I actually like that a nobody from nowhere was chosen instead of a Skywalker to balance the Force, but I still maintain that mind control was totally overkill for someone with no training in the Force at all.
Yes the Force can be used as a deus ex machina but that's just an excuse for lazy writing. There's plenty else she could have done with the Force to escape that cell that wouldn't have been so over the top.
Your original criticism had nothing to do with structure but the end result (failure)Everyone fails in ESB, and yet the film's plotting is impeccable. It's not about themes. Themes don't excuse poor story structure.
Your original criticism had nothing to do with structure but the end result (failure)
Well, it's not the first polemic piece made by Rian Johnson lol
He made Breaking Bad's Fly episode, which a lot of people also thinks it's a waste and add's nothing to the series lol
The Battle of Crait literally wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Poe and Finn's plan. The Battle Of Crait is the literal climax of the film.GTFO with this condescending shit. I've seen TLJ three times.
The entire Finn subplot amounts to exactly one thing: indirectly (via Benicio) alerting the FO to the escape pods being launched for Crait. That's it.
Luke's biggest obstacle when it came to learning the force was his own self doubt. Not his force exp lvl.Luke had basic training in the Force from Obi-Wan, enough to consciously connect to it, and he struggled super hard to even so much as pull his lightsaber to him.
Luke learned how to use a mind trick after seeing it once. Ezra was full of self doubt while he learned the force. There's a fundamental difference between Rey, Ezra, and Luke, Rey never questions whether or not something is possible. Ezra does:Rey had zero training of any kind and was not only able to use the Force to control another person's mind, a quite advanced Force technique that took a prodigy like Ezra years to lear
Three years later and a scene in TLJ literally dedicated to explaining the reason why Rey beat Kylo for the people who didn't get it, and yet we still have people who didn't get it....but was able to connect with the Force as strongly as Ben in their duel and that she was capable enough with a lightsaber to beat the guy trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke. Her experience fighting on Jakku really would not prepare her for a fight against a Jedi, let alone someone strong enough to kill his fellow students and peers that had also been trained by Luke Skywalker.
The majority of the audience and critics got the point, it's not the filmmaker's fault that some people didn't get it, as we still have people questioning Rey beating Kylo years after the fact despite a scene literally dedicated to spelling out what was explicitly shown in TFA. Doesn't help that there's a ton of overlap between the detractors and the "actually the prequels were good" bullshit, because that's basically a generation who grew up on shit storytelling and clunky exposition in SW films.The speculation BS could be completely avoided if they had filled all the cracks with exposition. It's not clunky storytelling if it stops fan nitpicking. It is clearly necessary.
It didn't add to the plot much so yeah that's valid. But it did add to the thematic message and helped build the world out more giving us a look at war profiteers and stuffIt's not about the fact that Finn fails.
It's about the fact that you could write the entire subplot out of the movie completely, and the film wouldn't miss a beat as long as you gave Hux or someone like one extra line of dialogue.
1. How is there gravity in space? I'm referring to the bombers dropping bombs on a enemy ship at the beginning. They are in space, but the bombs are falling downward toward the enemy ship. Wouldn't they just hover around and not fall down?
Is this a troll list? I can't even tell anymore. Everything here is either purely subjective, or just plain wrong. Just take the first one on that list: no they wouldn't just "hover around" because there is artificial gravity inside Star Wars ships and inertia is a thing.Some random things I remember.
1. How is there gravity in space? I'm referring to the bombers dropping bombs on a enemy ship at the beginning. They are in space, but the bombs are falling downward toward the enemy ship. Wouldn't they just hover around and not fall down?
2. The pink/purple haired lady wasn't a good character.
3. The whole side story with fin and rose felt pointless. Also, those horse things will just get captured again, so I really don't know what they accomplished.
4. Why couldn't the first orders ship just go slightly faster and blow up the rebels ship?
5. The forced relationship between fin and rose, or whatever that was.
6. Everything about the Princess Leia in space scene
7. admiral ackbar
8. Why are the rebels just now using light speed as a weapon?
9. Luke Skywalkers implantation was strange, especially the end.
10. Benicio del ToroS character.
11. Captain Phasmas implementation. Basically a throw away charter.
Again, it's been awhile since I saw it in theaters so I could be misremembering things, and I could be missing other issues I had with the movie.
Also, people can dislike this movie because it wasn't a good movie. It's not always politically driven.
Considering Luke's miracle shot to destroy the death star, I really don't think anything is too over the top. You can just put "it was the force" on to anything it'll make sense. It's like magic. A wizard did it lol
Not far off, but what you're leaving out is how many #3's basically were baselessly accused of being #1's or #2's. Some of the old OTs here were a mess. And the sentiment still pops up here and there.Well, OP- there are kind of three tiers to the criticisms of the film:
1.) Alt-right nutjobs who can't handle the idea of empowered female and minority characters taking center stage. Apparently, they think it's all a feminazi conspiracy hatched by Kathleen Kennedy and Satan.
2.) SW "superfans", who are some of the most toxic fuckfaces in the history of humanity, couldn't handle the idea of their precious theories about Rey's parentage, Luke's intentions and Snoke's place in the story being brushed aside by an "outsider" like Rian Johnson.
3.) Reasonable folk who had legitimate criticisms of the writing/pacing/editing of the film.
Unfortunately, #'s 1 and 2 drowned out #3 by a wide margin.
I always fight it weird that people try to debate science when it comes to a series about magic space wizards with space battles that purposefully emulate WW2 tactics and imagery, does SW try to make things believable in context? Yes. Does SW follow any logic at all when it comes to Science? Fuck no. We block laser gun blasts in star wars with a laser sword and space has sounds and explosions.I always find it weird when people bring up bombs falling in space when we saw that already in ESB.
Judging by how many people are super particular about the power level of force users relative to the amount of training being shown explicitly on film, the fourth group is composed of Dragon Ball Z fans.Well, OP- there are kind of three tiers to the criticisms of the film:
1.) Alt-right nutjobs who can't handle the idea of empowered female and minority characters taking center stage. Apparently, they think it's all a feminazi conspiracy hatched by Kathleen Kennedy and Satan.
2.) SW "superfans", who are some of the most toxic fuckfaces in the history of humanity, couldn't handle the idea of their precious theories about Rey's parentage, Luke's intentions and Snoke's place in the story being brushed aside by an "outsider" like Rian Johnson.
3.) Reasonable folk who had legitimate criticisms of the writing/pacing/editing of the film.
Unfortunately, #'s 1 and 2 drowned out #3 by a wide margin.
Generation who grew up on this kinda shit:Judging by how many people are super particular about the power level of force users relative to the amount of training being shown explicitly on film, the fourth group is composed of Dragon Ball Z fans.
There's 18 pages of comments so I doubt I could add anything, but my takeaway from TLJ was that it was a mess with some interesting ideas.
The best example of this mess is that Luke only gives two lessons when said he'd give three. Otherwise, the entire Finn storyline, the deaths of Snoke and Luke, the entire setup of a chase through space and ships running out of fuel, the convenient nearby planet (?!), the abuse of time to allow for someone to go from random schmuck to lifting rocks with the force without any real time passing, the poor dialogue and the fact that the film manages to destroy both other movies in the trilogy (an impressive feat given movie nine isn't out yet).
Judging by how many people are super particular about the power level of force users relative to the amount of training being shown explicitly on film, the fourth group is composed of Dragon Ball Z fans.
Now you're just being pedantic. Regardless of your opinion of the prequel trilogy and shows like The Clone Wars and Rebels, they are our most clear examples of the training Jedi undergo.
It's really not that weird to wonder why all that is being overlooked. It's not like the prequel trilogy is no longer canon just because folks didn't like them.
The Battle of Crait literally wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Poe and Finn's plan. The Battle Of Crait is the literal climax of the film.
Why would be they be scanning for energy readings? Their focus was solely on the flagship which was running out of fuel incredibly quickly. On top of that, they were cloaked until the FO find out and knew what to look for.It's so easily replaceable with two lines of dialogue.
Officer: "Sir, we're detecting several dozen small energy readings in the vicinity of the rebel flagship."
Hux: "They're trying to fool us by fleeing their dying ship. They must not be aware of the power of our latest sensors. Commander, fire upon those escape vessels!"
That shouldn't be possible. It's a very clumsily assembled story
Why would be they be scanning for energy readings? Their focus was solely on the flagship which was running out of fuel incredibly quickly.
It's hard to tell what is a strawman when nobody outside "the defense force" can make a strong coherent argument worth a damn. It's always either "it's bad" and that's it or a completely factually inaccurate argument.
That doesn't take away from his point. Even Lucas thought power fantasy Luke was dumb.
No I'm not. Both responses I got to "Why is the TLJ bad, give me legit arguments?" were "shoddy storytelling" (lol) and "Canto Bight was unnecessary" (complete bullshit).
The climax isn't the only thing that canto night affects, it directly affects Rose and Finn as people, which directly affects their actions after they leave the planet. You can't remove Canto Bight without substantial rewrites of the film.Any number of sci-fi reasons that don't particularly matter. The point is that something like 40% of the movie ultimately serves no purpose except to get Benicio Del Toro in a position to tell Hux about the escape pods, which he learns about via a really dumb coincidence anyway. And there are other ways it could have happened, or the FO could have disabled and boarded the flagship and found it empty and decided to search the nearby planet of Crait. The B plot for your second biggest character (on the hero side) shouldn't be so disposable.
Is this a troll list? I can't even tell anymore. Everything here is either purely subjective, or just plain wrong. Just take the first one on that list: no they wouldn't just "hover around" because there is artificial gravity inside Star Wars ships and inertia is a thing.
Lol "disposable".Any number of sci-fi reasons that don't particularly matter. The point is that something like 40% of the movie ultimately serves no purpose except to get Benicio Del Toro in a position to tell Hux about the escape pods, which he learns about via a really dumb coincidence anyway. And there are other ways it could have happened, or the FO could have disabled and boarded the flagship and found it empty and decided to search the nearby planet of Crait. The B plot for your second biggest character (on the hero side) shouldn't be so disposable.
And if the whole point was to be subversive and play on the theme of failure, then the film doesn't earn that at all. Benicio happens to overhear some random conversation and figures everything out? It's insanely contrived.
Even if it works, as in there are no gaping plot holes, and A leads to B leads to C, it's still very shoddy storytelling.
And that would have literally thrown out two character arcs, not to mention that this is something literally applicable to every movie in the OT.It's so easily replaceable with two lines of dialogue.
Officer: "Sir, we're detecting several dozen small energy readings in the vicinity of the rebel flagship."
Hux: "They're trying to fool us by fleeing their dying ship. They must not be aware of the power of our latest sensors. Commander, fire upon those escape vessels!"
That shouldn't be possible. It's a very clumsily assembled story
Lol "disposable".
Leads directly to the climax of the movie and it's tied directly to two main character's arcs.
And that would have literally thrown out two character arcs, not to mention that this is something literally applicable to every movie in the OT.
This is missing the point. The movie is about the characters and their development and how each of them learns through failure. Cutting out one character's plot may not greatly affect another's, but it doesn't need to. The Last Jedi is not meant to be JUST Rey's story, it's Finn's and Poe's as well.It really isn't.
There's no other movie where you could just write out one of the main characters and have it affect so little.
https://news.ansible.uk/plotdev.htmlConsidering Luke's miracle shot to destroy the death star, I really don't think anything is too over the top. You can just put "it was the force" on to anything it'll make sense. It's like magic. A wizard did it lol
But actually, it's not always necessary for the author to put in an appearance himself, if only he can smuggle the Plot itself into the story disguised as one of the characters. Naturally, it tends not to look like most of the other characters, chiefly on account of its omnipresence and lack of physical body. It'll call itself something like the Visualization of the Cosmic All, or Seldon's Plan, or The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, or the Law, or the Light, or the Will of the Gods; or, in perhaps its most famous avatar, the Force. Credit for this justly celebrated interpretation of Star Wars belongs to Phil Palmer; I'd only like to point out the way it makes sudden and perfect sense of everything that happens in the film. "The time has come, young man, for you to learn about the Plot." "Darth Vader is a servant of the dark side of the Plot." When Ben Kenobi gets written out, he becomes one with the Plot and can speak inside the hero's head. When a whole planet of good guys gets blown up, Ben senses "a great disturbance in the Plot."
If this is beginning to sound like a silly little verbal game, think again. The reason you can play this sort of game in the first place is that the Force is one of those arbitrary, general-purpose, all-powerful plot devices that can be invoked whenever convenient to effect whatever happens to be necessary at the time. The only ends it serves within the logic of the story are those of the storyteller. And the reason you can decode so much of SF in this kind of way is that SF is absolutely addicted to crappiness; and while science fiction may not offer any more opportunities than any other kind of fiction for crappy character-drawing or crappy prose, the scope for crappy plotting is virtually limitless.
lol just because you repeat it doesn't make it true.It really isn't.
There's no other movie where you could just write out one of the main characters and have it affect so little.