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I just Watched The Last Jedi, why was it controversial??
- Thread starter konka
- Start date
The only thing that results from Finn being in the movie is that somewhat fewer Resistance members make it to Crait.
That it has been more than six months and this strawman keeps getting beaten up should be enough proof that there is zero effort on the part of the defense force on having an actual discussion about the writing.
To me, it's fairly obvious that corporate gave a directive in the new trilogy to give Harrison Ford, Make Hamill, and Carrie Fisher their golden watch and to show them off the stage. They were to each have 'their movie' where they were the main draw for one last hurrah, and then to be killed off. At least, that was the plan until Fisher prevented it from being fully implemented. It's as non-coincidental as Ash catching Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle in back-to-back episodes. It didn't just happen, that was the plan.
Nothing about Luke's journey in TLJ feels organic at all because of this. They had to manufacture some way for him to have a redemptive arc so he could have a meaningful sacrifice instead of just an unceremonious death. I mean, if they're going to have the original cast come back, have them actually be back. Don't just have some of American culture's greatest fictional heroes come back to be a jobber or to come back with all of the oomph of a wet fart. Hamill and Ford still had it, they both could have done a few movies.
Nothing about Luke's journey in TLJ feels organic at all because of this. They had to manufacture some way for him to have a redemptive arc so he could have a meaningful sacrifice instead of just an unceremonious death. I mean, if they're going to have the original cast come back, have them actually be back. Don't just have some of American culture's greatest fictional heroes come back to be a jobber or to come back with all of the oomph of a wet fart. Hamill and Ford still had it, they both could have done a few movies.
Luke died without having a badass RotJ moment, going Force Unleashed on an army of Walkers, or flying his X-Wing again, like many internet fanfictions.
Rey's parents were nobodys.
Snoke wasnt Palpatine 2.0.
That about covers everything right?
Rey's parents were nobodys.
Snoke wasnt Palpatine 2.0.
That about covers everything right?
Ford didnt want any of it, he only came back for 2 reasons, the big paycheck and Han Solo would be finally killed off. We already had the OT and the Prequels to some extent, did you really want another Trilogy to focus yet again on the Skywalker lineage? Is the galaxy so small that it has to revolve around the same 3 main characters facing the "Empire" yet again?
I always knew from the beginning that this wasnt gonna be Dark Empire or some other EU story about the OT old guard, and that instead they were going to be used to introduce new characters.
holy fucking shit
you cant be for real with that statement
lol
Mark Hamill is going to be in Episode 9, without a doubt. That wouldnt fit the "shown the door" conspiracy theory.
I am referring to the idea each actor only gets 1 film. Hamill will be in 9 as Luke, that is more than 1 film.
The "hardcore fans" are a tiny, tiny fragment of the general audience that goes to see Star Wars films. It's always been a mainstream blockbuster franchise. Star Wars, along with Jaws, defined the modern blockbuster.
It's hard to tell what is a strawman when nobody outside "the defense force" can make a strong coherent argument worth a damn. It's always either "it's bad" and that's it or a completely factually inaccurate argument.
The hardcore fans are what kept Star Wars alive and relevant in the decades between trilogies. Because we bought the video games, the novels, the comics, and whatever else they were selling while telling us there would never be any more movies so this is all you get if you want to continue enjoying the universe.
I don't think many of you are seeing my point so I'll try again.
If you can't understand why there is a segment of people upset with Luke's characterization in TLJ, then there really is no discussion to be had. To just completely discount those folks as being fringe or a bunch of lunatics is disingenuous.
OP
OP
But they are. Sure. They bought all the shit. But they are still a fringe of the audience of those movies.
lol Star Wars is not some niche franchise like Spawn or even Ninja Turtles that had to be "kept alive" through toy and comic purchases. It's literally the biggest movie franchise in America. Episode 7 would have made billions on its own even without the 40 year old nerds buying up every toy.
OP
OP
But they are. Sure. They bought all the shit. But they are still a fringe of the audience of those movies.
You're just wrong, or being obtuse for argument's sake.
There was a 16 year gap between RoTJ and TPM. Lucas had no intention of making any more Star Wars movies after the OT was done. It wasn't until the success of the 1990's Dark Horse comic series, and the success of Timothy Zahn's Thrwan trilogy, along with CGI being a viable way to make films, did he decide to start making Star Wars films again.
I'm not saying that the ultra hardcore should be catered to. Or that these movies should be made just to please that subset of fans. What I'm trying to get people to understand are the hows/whys of that subset of fans seeing this characterization of Luke was so upsetting.
I would have been perfectly ok with them not going the space-God route with Luke. I can't really tell you though what I wanted to see out of Luke 40 years later. But I could easily tell you what I didn't want to see and that's exactly what we ended up with.
There are people making legit arguments as to why they don't like TLJ. Some either don't want or care to even read or try to have any understanding as to why.
Oh no Luke became a jaded fuck like both his mentors after a dark lord turned his nephew to the dark side
lol the OT was still one of the biggest movie franchises of all time. There's no fucking way Hollywood would've let that potential go untapped for that long. They desperately mine anything and everything for money. We're getting a Bill and Ted 3 and probably more Power Rangers movies. Do you really think some studio wouldn't have bought it from Lucas, even if he didn't want to make more SW?
I am with you konka, the hate is weird as fuck. It's like it is being looked upon as some kind of massive cinematic disgrace that should have never been made.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, never have been, never will be, but I can enjoy them for the space opera schlock they are.
And I'd say this movie is better than Return of the Jedi and all the prequels.
It's so weird.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, never have been, never will be, but I can enjoy them for the space opera schlock they are.
And I'd say this movie is better than Return of the Jedi and all the prequels.
It's so weird.
To be fair, Luke wasn't like Yoda or Obi-Wan. That was the whole point of the original trilogy, after all, that Luke could succeed where they failed. In fact, turning Luke into the Obi-Wan of the sequel trilogy misses the point of the original trilogy entirely. As Hamill said himself, Luke didn't give up. Running away from his failure in self-imposed exile is something Obi-Wan or Yoda would do, not Luke.
They owe you nothing. Nothing. The high and mightiness of this post gives Star Wars fans a bad name. Grow up, move on, simmer down.
They are a fringe. They are embarrassing whiny man-babies who do not deserve the attention they so crave. They do not speak for the fan-base. At all.
I fell in love with Star Wars long before the prequels. I read the EU, I spent thousands on toys and merchandise. I played the video games. And guess what, I found Luke was very fitting of his character in TLJ. It honored and respected Luke and Hamill. Luke was fantastic in it. TLJ was my favorite film next to ESB. So no, they do not speak for me.
Wow. Nice edit there. You're really helping your case.
As I was going to say, you don't speak for "the fan base" either. There is no singular uniform Star Wars fanbase, which is where your issue arises. Different Star Wars fans like different aspects of Star Wars and it is not your right or responsibility to dictate who qualifies to be a Star Wars fan.
Don't hide behind the sexism of a very vocal, very small minority to dismiss the opinions of Star Wars fans who do not align with you. It makes you every bit an embarrassing whiny man-baby as the people you vilify.
I never claimed to speak for the fanbase, I am using it as an example of how foolish it is to assume all long time fans feel the same.
I never claimed not liking Luke in TLK is sexist/racist at all. The butt hurt "Not My Luke" types are whiny man babies. that is different than disliking Star Wars due to racism/sexism.
The #NotMyLuke whiny guys aren't necessary the alt-right "HOW DARE HOLDO BE A WOMAN AND BE A STRONG LEADER" that is a whole different can of worms.
Why was it controversial?
Because some people can't handle women appearing in movies. You can tell it's almost entirely that simply by the rest of the arguments either being entirely incoherent...
...or applying entirely to the original trilogy itself. There's other, minor things some people dislike in the movies, but without people crying about women, there'd only be a tiny fringe with such problems.
People pretending otherwise are kinda embarassing, at this point, with all the crybaby dudebro attempts and campaigns after the movie, it's blatantly obvious for all to see and people joining that for ~legitimate reasons~ are nothing but useful tools for the "waah sjw" crowd.
TBH, the main issue with the new trilogy is the JJ-abrams mystery box nonsense, and TLJ dismantled that pretty nicely, with both Snoke and Reys parents being irrelevant, as they should be.
Because some people can't handle women appearing in movies. You can tell it's almost entirely that simply by the rest of the arguments either being entirely incoherent...
...or applying entirely to the original trilogy itself. There's other, minor things some people dislike in the movies, but without people crying about women, there'd only be a tiny fringe with such problems.
People pretending otherwise are kinda embarassing, at this point, with all the crybaby dudebro attempts and campaigns after the movie, it's blatantly obvious for all to see and people joining that for ~legitimate reasons~ are nothing but useful tools for the "waah sjw" crowd.
TBH, the main issue with the new trilogy is the JJ-abrams mystery box nonsense, and TLJ dismantled that pretty nicely, with both Snoke and Reys parents being irrelevant, as they should be.
Oh I am sure there is a ton of crossover between the two. No doubt. But no reason to assume someone is always going to be in both camps.
There are plenty of ways to rationally dislike and discuss disliking TLJ. Going the "Not My Luke"/"They didn't respect old fans!" is just being a walking Simpsons Comic Book Man stereotype, that is just nonsense. Not liking Canto Bight, I can see that and so on.
So they have two options:
1) Make a movie that defies expectations and keeps the franchise relevant for future audiences. (My biggest complaint with TFA is it was too much of a retread.)
2) Make a "safe" power fantasy that's comfort food for 45 year olds in wookiee pyjamas.
Yes, those hardcore fans have kept Star Wars brand profitable in the long stretches between trilogies, but you're forgetting that the larger mainstream audience flocks to see new movies based on their own nostalgia of the films, never having consumed expanded media themselves. My whole family was there opening weekend for TFA, despite the four of us having read a grand total of zero novels over the years.
Today's 10 year olds may be inspired by Luke in a way you never were, and they'll carry that into the future.
Best part is definitely the practical affects they squeezed in. Old style Yoda is so good.
The rest of the film I could do without. It's fine, I mean my expectations were bottomed out by prequels so you can only go up from there.
The rest of the film I could do without. It's fine, I mean my expectations were bottomed out by prequels so you can only go up from there.
Uh, yes you do. You do it all the time. Both of those things. It's all any of you do. It's fucking insufferable, like I'm surrounded by children. As much as it makes me groan to even write it, you're all just like Anakin with your stupid "if you're not with me you're against me!" bullshit.
The Star Wars fandom is a Venn diagram, not a fucking line in some imaginary sand. If you're a Star Wars fan who does not like how The Last Jedi portrayed Luke Skywalker, you are not a "whiny man baby" and your Star Wars fanclub ID is not going to be revoked by some guy with an R2D2 avatar.
Nobody can tell anyone what they can and cannot like about Star Wars or sit there with a shit-eating grin on their face as they throw box office numbers at you as if that somehow legitimises their position and brands you as "wrong".
100% for real.
What else does Finn affect?
If you mention the little kids on Canto Bight I'll grudgingly concede that, but come on.
you should rewatch the movie and pay attention this time
I have NEVER said I speak for the entire fanbase.
I have NEVER said not liking Luke in TLJ was sexist/racist. I called out the anti-Rose and Holdo rants as sexist. And the attacks that Rey is too skilled as sexist. That is different than calling out whiny man babies as about Luke.
Hamill was incredible, but I was more speaking for the new characters
I'm still laughing that this Reddit-ass line made it into a final draft
Are some people here really claiming that if you didn't like the film you're either racist, sexist, or both? Damn
A lot of people here already mentioned a couple of reasons. Main points for me was Luke feeling out of character, the Snoke disappointment, Rey's parents and the Finn subplot which felt like it led to nothing.
A lot of people here already mentioned a couple of reasons. Main points for me was Luke feeling out of character, the Snoke disappointment, Rey's parents and the Finn subplot which felt like it led to nothing.
It's 1/3 of a great movie...the other 2/3 is so boring or heavy-handed with its themes with questionable execution.
And before you TLJ defenders get upset
Luke was fine
Rey was not a Mary Sue
Kylo turning on Snoke was set up well
Everything not involving those three(four) characters either bored me to tears or beat me over the head with themes it didn't execute well.
In addition
Rose was a forgettable character played by a good actress who was given some really poor dialogue to work with.
And before you TLJ defenders get upset
Luke was fine
Rey was not a Mary Sue
Kylo turning on Snoke was set up well
Everything not involving those three(four) characters either bored me to tears or beat me over the head with themes it didn't execute well.
In addition
Rose was a forgettable character played by a good actress who was given some really poor dialogue to work with.
I really love the movie, but this is honestly the closest I've ever come to agreeing with a more negative analysis of it, haha.
I tried to watch it again but had to stop. It's technically fine, as are the rest of the Disney Star Wars movies. Beautifully shot, great practical and digital effects. Rogue One especially looks amazing. However, these new Star Wars movies are not that interesting. The Episodes feel aimless, especially now, after The Last Jedi destroyed everything setup in The Force Awakens. It feels like there's no captain steering the ship. At least with the Prequels, there was an interesting progressing story to be told. I've always enjoyed the Prequels. Saw them many times in the theater. It was an event. These new ones feel like cash grabs. More power to those who enjoy them. I still need to see Solo. I think I'm going to skip Episode 9, at the theater anyway.
There's 18 pages of comments so I doubt I could add anything, but my takeaway from TLJ was that it was a mess with some interesting ideas.
The best example of this mess is that Luke only gives two lessons when said he'd give three. Otherwise, the entire Finn storyline, the deaths of Snoke and Luke, the entire setup of a chase through space and ships running out of fuel, the convenient nearby planet (?!), the abuse of time to allow for someone to go from random schmuck to lifting rocks with the force without any real time passing, the poor dialogue and the fact that the film manages to destroy both other movies in the trilogy (an impressive feat given movie nine isn't out yet).
The best example of this mess is that Luke only gives two lessons when said he'd give three. Otherwise, the entire Finn storyline, the deaths of Snoke and Luke, the entire setup of a chase through space and ships running out of fuel, the convenient nearby planet (?!), the abuse of time to allow for someone to go from random schmuck to lifting rocks with the force without any real time passing, the poor dialogue and the fact that the film manages to destroy both other movies in the trilogy (an impressive feat given movie nine isn't out yet).
I really wanted to love the movie since I had a feeling it would be the conclusion of Luke's story. On that metric, it succeeded - I just felt like they didn't know what to do with the non-Jedi/Sith cast members so the rest of the movie feels like a sideshow.
Oh he did give a third lesson but it was cut because it made him look like a dick. He basically tricked Rey into believing bandits frequently attacked the island and when she says she wants to stop them, Luke reminds her that she'd just make matters worse and that Jedi are meant to maintain the balance. She tells him to boil an egg and runs off to help, only to realise he was lying. His lesson was that help comes from action, not seeking out legends to solve your problems for you.
Obviously they must have scrapped it when they decided Luke would help after all, even if his position throughout the whole movie was that the Jedi just make everything worse.
Yes. Maybe the simple answer is that the movie just isn't very good, starting with the MacGuffin that was the chase, where Empire 2.0 doesn't just jump ahead of Rebel fleet 2.0 for reasons.
We should discuss this some more in the next thread.
Right? Just like how in the OT someone went from random schmuck to making shots advanced computers couldn't in just hours. Or single handedly taking down AT AT walkers and killing snow monsters with no training.
Luke had basic training in the Force from Obi-Wan, enough to consciously connect to it, and he struggled super hard to even so much as pull his lightsaber to him.
Rey had zero training of any kind and was not only able to use the Force to control another person's mind, a quite advanced Force technique that took a prodigy like Ezra years to learn, but was able to connect with the Force as strongly as Ben in their duel and that she was capable enough with a lightsaber to beat the guy trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke. Her experience fighting on Jakku really would not prepare her for a fight against a Jedi, let alone someone strong enough to kill his fellow students and peers that had also been trained by Luke Skywalker.
GTFO with this condescending shit. I've seen TLJ three times.
The entire Finn subplot amounts to exactly one thing: indirectly (via Benicio) alerting the FO to the escape pods being launched for Crait. That's it.
It just isn't good storytelling, especially when you compare it to a masterclass in storytelling like ESB.