Sakurai: players “gave up on Melee because it’s too technical", won't focus too much on competitive

demondance · Jul 8, 2018

Braaier said:
That's a good thing. There's a reason why sf5 has massively underperformed. Capcom went after the competitive crowd. Better to go after the casual crowd

Have you played or even read any complaints about SFV's gameplay?

They released it too early with few features on the premise that their core audience didn't care about single player stuff, but the gameplay itself was dramatically simplified to attract a more casual audience than SFV.

It launched badly because as an overall product it didn't appeal to casuals *or* the FGC

Anteo · Jul 8, 2018

He is not wrong, but he could alao make a game that is good for both casual and competirive and doesnt kill your hands

Spring-Loaded · Jul 8, 2018

"Catering to competitive crowd is at odds with catering to the casual crowd" is a false dichotomy.

Jazzem · Jul 8, 2018

Honestly, I do wonder how well it'll be received competitively given the huge roster. Balancing that effectively is going to be a Herculean task, wouldn't surprise me if we have a few Smash Wii U/3DS 1.00 Diddy Kongs in there.

DigitalOp · Jul 8, 2018

I play Smash mainly for the characters and the one of a kind gameplay.

I'm not going to lag behind on some 10 year old game when EVERYONE RETURNS THIS FALL.

Sakurai should offer to make a new Melee if they decide to shower in return. Lol.

Rendering... · Jul 8, 2018

I'm not convinced that Melee's depth alienated enough casual players to make any real dent in a player base that was naturally going to shrink as time went on. Sure, it's a fast game. That in itself doesn't mean it's not accessible to people of lower skill levels.

How often are pros going to mix with casuals anyway? Sakurai's argument seems like an after-the-fact justification to support his own preference for casual gameplay as a designer. And it's a real shame, because accessibility doesn't require an absence of depth--just a layer of pick-up-and-play mechanics on top.

I thought Melee was exactly that, with its system of tilt, smash, and aerial attacks. It took the original SSB's mechanics as a template and added to them. You can still play the game as though wave dashing and L-canceling and so on don't exist. So why not make a new game that's deep as hell but preserves the basic mechanics that let anyone have fun?

gordofredito · Jul 8, 2018

Ah, so this isn't the Smash Melee fans wanted

Protome · Jul 8, 2018

gordofredito said:
Ah, so this isn't the Smash Melee fans wanted

Well no, Melee is the smash Melee fans wanted and always will be.

PadWarrior · Jul 8, 2018

Very glad Sakurai doesn't cater to the competitive scene.

Village · Jul 8, 2018

PadWarrior said:
Very glad Sakurai doesn't cater to the competitive scene.

Read this

Spring-Loaded said:
"Catering to competitive crowd is at odds with catering to the casual crowd" is a false dichotomy.

Spring-Loaded · Jul 8, 2018

Rendering... said:
I'm not convinced that Melee's depth alienated enough casual players to make any real dent in a player base that was naturally going to shrink as time went on. Sure, it's a fast game. That in itself doesn't mean it's not accessible to people of lower skill levels.

How often are pros going to mix with casuals anyway? Sakurai's argument seems like an after-the-fact justification to support his own preference for casual gameplay as a designer. And it's a real shame, because accessibility doesn't require an absence of depth--just a layer of pick-up-and-play mechanics on top.

I thought Melee was exactly that, with its system of tilt, smash, and aerial attacks. It took the original SSB's mechanics as a template and added to them. You can still play the game as though wave dashing and L-canceling or whatever don't exist.

The bolded is exactly what I did pretty much until Brawl came out. Melee was the most fun I had with the series and I didn't even know what wavedashing was.

Kewlmyc · Jul 8, 2018

Makes sense.

Was having a discussion last week with some gaming friends who all don't enjoy Melee because it's too technical. Can't grasp concepts like wavedashing and whatnot.

I think Ultimate will be a nice blend of casual play and competitive with all the gameplay changes being made to it.

mutantmagnet · Jul 8, 2018

Dipro said:
your post makes no sense. he said that games like smash aren't big because of the very very small competitive community. not sure what high skill ceiling has to do with that.

He was making indirectly a blanket statement that any game tuned to competitive scene isn't mass market.

I'm talking about more than Smash. If you really want to continue this broader topic reread my post because I finished the edit.

LightEntite · Jul 8, 2018

"I think a lot of Melee players love Melee. But at the same time, I think a lot of players, on the other hand, gave up on Melee because it's too technical, because they can't keep up with it. And I know there were players who got tendinitis from playing, and messing with the controller so much … that really is hard on the player and I feel like a game should really focus on what the target audience is."

This is so stupid.

1) Nobody gave up on Melee when it was the most recent Smash game. Casuals played it, and loved it, just like 64 (which was more punishing), Brawl (which was just as silly as Melee), and Smash 4 (which is the most depthless of them all). Never once did I sit down with my sisters or friends or anyone else to play Melee, and have to hear them complain about how difficult or technical the game was.

2) It doesn't matter how easy you make your fighting game, casuals will never fit in with competitive players. But that's perfectly fine, because...

3) Smash by nature consists of isolated communities. The vast majority of Smash players will never aspire to Esports or highly competitive play, and that's fine....

4) ...Because the moment they do, they're going to get the rude awakening that happens with every fighting game, when you realize that casual play will NEVER result in a notable ranking. This is just as true of Melee as it is of Smash 4 -- you're going to get decimated by competitive players no matter which version of the game you're playing or how technical it is.

The only way to avoid people complaining about getting their ass trashed by better players is to make your game so shallow that there's simply no real way to gain a competitive edge. And that is a really, REALLY stupid idea, because casual players are going to enjoy the game regardless. That's why they're called Casuals.

Smash Ultimate looks like it's finally understanding that. And as a result, you've got both Melee and competitive Brawl players finally returning to the game from the terrible drought that was brought on by Smash 4.

As long as Sakurai understands that a game doesn't have to be super technical in order to be good, then Smash 5 will turn out to be a great game. It looks like someone's already sat him down and explained it to him, as judging from the SmashU changes, but god forbid the game gets nerfed before release

corasaur · Jul 8, 2018

casual players don't know what an l-cancel is unless they read about it online. casual smash play is all about having the largest possible pile of nintendo toys to battle with. sakurai's belief that a good competitive game engine would scare away casual users has always been nuts.

DevilMayGuy · Jul 8, 2018

As long as there is no tripping we're good

gordofredito · Jul 8, 2018

Protome said:
Well no, Melee is the smash Melee fans wanted and always will be.

I thought this would be the bridge between those fans (who actually do play Smash) and the casual fans that come and go

Rutger · Jul 8, 2018

Majukun said:
it's a sine qua non condition given the advantage it gives...

you are not automatically good at smash if you use wavedashing, but you kind of need to use it if you want to compete in competitive melee

There are techniques one needs to learn in every Smash game if they want to compete, there's a lot of research that needs to be done in any fighting game if one wants to compete. If you want to compete, it's a big time investment no matter what, and learning how to execute the techniques are only a small part of that.

Wavedashing isn't special in this case It's an exploit in Melee, sure, but the difference between exploit and mechanic is small, and there are many examples in fighting games, hell games in general, of an exploit being upgraded to a mechanic in the next game.

LightEntite · Jul 8, 2018

And just because so few people in Smash threads seem to understand this:

Melee players don't give a damn about L-cancelling, wavedashing, or any of the other super technical aspects of Melee. what Melee players (or any competitive fighting game player) really care about are options. You don't need the technical aspects of Melee in order to have a game with similar options.

Rutger said:
Wavedashing isn't special in this case It's an exploit in Melee, sure, but the difference between exploit and mechanic is small, and there are many examples in fighting games, hell games in general, of an exploit being upgraded to a mechanic in the next game.

In the best of cases, exploiting the game's mechanics is actually anticipated and intended, and thus designed around.

It opens up the game once you've mastered the basics, and gives competitive players more to work with to expand their play

Alienous · Jul 8, 2018

Yeah, and Ridley's too big. Sure. Who gave up on Melee because it was too technical? I've only known praise for the game among the target audience.

I do appreciate his concern for straining player's hands. It reminds me of the one game I've played where hand strain impacted how I played it. What was it called again... oh, that's right, Kid Icarus Uprising.

demondance · Jul 8, 2018

Spring-Loaded said:
"Catering to competitive crowd is at odds with catering to the casual crowd" is a false dichotomy.

Most of the biggest MP games fly right into the face of it.

But I still think Sakurai is right here. Competitive Melee is a format simply too far removed from how millions of people play Smash to focus on what Melee players want out of a Smash game.

In most fighting games, casuals and competitive gamers are playing the same format, doing a competitive-first Melee-inspired game starts with the premise that you're taking out items, balancing for 1v1 and only doing certain types of stages.

It's probably for the best if the community works with whatever Smash currently is to hammer out a competitive game than to expect Sakurai and co. to make something outside of their mission statement for what Smash is.

collige · Jul 8, 2018

Spring-Loaded said:
"Catering to competitive crowd is at odds with catering to the casual crowd" is a false dichotomy.

Preach.

Dipro said:
no it was in regular 8 too. it was also in 7, wii, ds and double dash.

I stand corrected.

justiceiro said:
Well, I guess Melee fans can stop dreaming around a hd port just about now...

Hypothetically, Sakurai wouldn't need to be involved with a remake.

Deleted member 15428 · Jul 8, 2018

MrSaturn99 said:
This will go over well.

?

Renna Hazel · Jul 8, 2018

goldenpp73 said:
Because Smash is actually incredibly deep as a competitive game and certain things disrupt the flow of that. Though I find most people go too far with it. Forum sorts who follow the competitive scene and then force their content picks to match despite not being great at the game are hilarious.

Like tiers, sorry timmy but that D rank character you won't use actually isn't ranked for your skill level and doesn't apply to you, but pretending is fun.

I can't agree with this post more.

strideredge · Jul 8, 2018

gordofredito said:
I thought this would be the bridge between those fans (who actually do play Smash) and the casual fans that come and go

The melee players that played the e3 build seemed to like it more than other smash games for the most part, but its not melee. I don't believe those guys are ever going to switch over and if they play the new one its definitely going to be their secondary game.

mutantmagnet · Jul 8, 2018

snazzums said:
Yeah, sorry, but these are all anecdotal claims about melee causing more injuries than other games. It's more likely that these players would have developed injuries from any fast paced game. And I would also argue that personal biology and lifestyle factor into these injuries.

I don't disagree with the idea that other factors exists.

I said that as much earlier.

But you did act like Sakurai pulled this notion out of his ass.

I have attempted to play rts competitively and understood this was realistic but I wanted to highlight posts that directly back up his claims.

fyi Sakurai was clearly implying his observation was anecdotal. He was not claiming melee was more stressful than other games, only other smash games.

Deleted member 23158 · Jul 8, 2018

I thought Melee was a pretty hit even among the casual fans.

Just look at stuff like Tekken and Soul Calibur casuals love those games, but they work competitively as well.

I do agree that high level play shouldn't fuck up someone's hand and having to use a broken controller to consistently perform a move is dumb, but if this needs to be fixed, but do add something in it's place to replace the lost gameplay dept. You need dept or content to keep players engaged.

The most popular multiplayer games all have high skill ceilings (e.g. Fortnite, League) so I don't understand this disdain against competitive players.

Devil · Jul 8, 2018

I have never heard of a single casual Smash player who said he gave up on playing Melee because it is too hard or "technical", not even once. The game was absolutely brilliant for everybody. And everybody MEANS everybody without excluding any group. Heck, I played it for hundreds of hours as a teenager without ever becoming good at it in a competitive sense and still had a blast playing againdt friends. It was only years later that I discovered the competitive side and it was like I discovered a whole new game within, so I played it a couple of hundred hours more. Everybody who gave up on the game by now did so because they just moved on and played new stuff, not because of the gameplay. Melee had serious legs for any casual player.

I really, really don't get Sakurai's argument here or the ones supporting it. He's not talking about today's online environment cause that's a whole other story we can debate about. He is talking about the offline game Melee. 90% of players never even heard about any advanced tech, yet he states people gave up because it's to techy. Ridiculous.

Bjones · Jul 8, 2018

You want to make it more fun for the casual player? Aka myself. Being back the adventure mode!

MrSaturn99 · Jul 8, 2018

Birdseye said:
?

This is a very touchy subject -- just look at the thread.

Lunar15 · Jul 8, 2018

What's funny is, as a casual fan who could never really even grasp a lot of those "advanced" techniques, I still found that melee felt better than anything that came after it. The drop speeds, the air dodges, etc. It just had a physics to it that felt great. Brawl was a step down in this regard, while 4 was definitely better, but still felt a bit off.

I guess I never played with high-skill players enough for the more "technical" aspects of melee to turn me away from the series. But I also don't know what evidence sakurai is basing this on.

Leafhopper · Jul 8, 2018

Dipro said:
almost all fighting games have made inputs easier. look at DBZF and it's still super popular.

And yet people on this very forum complain that it's still hard to play when they lose to others.

Pikachu · Jul 8, 2018

Melee is the best selling GameCube game

Miss me with "casual players don't like it"

Deleted member 23158 · Jul 8, 2018

Devil said:
I really, really don't get Sakurai's argument here or the ones supporting it. He's not talking about today's online environment cause that's a whole other story we can debate about. He is talking about the offline game Melee. 90% of players never even heard about any advanced tech, yet he states people gave up because it's to techy. Ridiculous.

Honestly, I only learned about wave dashing and all jazz years later when I started posting on gaming forums. It's such an odd argument to make.

Dipro said:
almost all fighting games have made inputs easier. look at DBZF and it's still super popular.

Yes, but Arc System made sure that the skill ceiling was high enough to cater to high level play as well.

Hailinel · Jul 8, 2018

demondance said:
Have you played or even read any complaints about SFV's gameplay?

They released it too early with few features on the premise that their core audience didn't care about single player stuff, but the gameplay itself was dramatically simplified to attract a more casual audience than SFV.

It launched badly because as an overall product it didn't appeal to casuals *or* the FGC

SFV failed to attract the casual audience because it didn't launch with any of the modes a casual audience cares about. Casual audiences care a lot more about things like single-player arcade modes than being able to go online and get stomped by people that practice all day and night.

demondance · Jul 8, 2018

goldenpp73 said:
Because Smash is actually incredibly deep as a competitive game and certain things disrupt the flow of that. Though I find most people go too far with it. Forum sorts who follow the competitive scene and then force their content picks to match despite not being great at the game are hilarious.

Like tiers, sorry timmy but that D rank character you won't use actually isn't ranked for your skill level and doesn't apply to you, but pretending is fun.

Extreme truth right here. Applies to a lot of games in general. People need to realize that tier lists aren't for the masses, and that the people *making* those tier lists have spent a lot of time learning the game and discovering the ins and outs of the characters that the scrubs are now completely ignoring even though they could probably learn something from using them.

Regulus Tera · Jul 8, 2018

I get what he's trying to say here, but I think it shows how little he actually knows about the Melee competitive scene. It's the execution difficulty what has kept those people interested in the game after so long.

Deleted member 27471 · Jul 8, 2018

I don't play smash, but how are items casual? why are people restricted to playing certain stages and characters? How is being restrictive in the core gameplay seen as being competitive? I don't get it.

LightEntite · Jul 8, 2018

Braaier said:
That's a good thing. There's a reason why sf5 has massively underperformed. Capcom went after the competitive crowd. Better to go after the casual crowd

This couldn't be more incorrect.

SF5 did not go for the competitive crowd at all.

They designed the game around the illusion that everyone who decides to play is part of the competitive crowd. There is a massive difference.

They pulled down the skill ceiling, bumped up the skill floor, and threw a 6-7frame buffer over the whole package to try and even out the spread.

Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite also suffered from the same flawed design approach, although it had way more issues than SF5 did.

NotLiquid · Jul 8, 2018

CG Amor said:
I don't play smash, but how are items casual? why are people restricted to playing certain stages and characters? How is being restrictive in the core gameplay seen as being competitive? I don't get it.

Because Smash without items on actually has an extreme amount of competitive depth underlying it, and items/random stage hazard makes it less about skill and more about pure luck. Also, there are no character restrictions; even the infamous Meta Knight "ban" didn't take.

Lunar15 · Jul 8, 2018

CG Amor said:
I don't play smash, but how are items casual? why are people restricted to playing certain stages and characters? How is being restrictive in the core gameplay seen as being competitive? I don't get it.

To reduce randomness and focus on the skill of the people playing the game. A stage or item with a gimmick that can randomly give the advantage to one player doesn't really help you find out who's better at the fighting mechanics. That's not to say that there's anything inherently wrong with items. I enjoy playing with items all the time. But there's also some times when you just don't want to have that randomness be part of the fun.

demondance · Jul 8, 2018

CG Amor said:
I don't play smash, but how are items casual? why are people restricted to playing certain stages and characters? How is being restrictive in the core gameplay seen as being competitive? I don't get it.

Cutting down on randomness, basically, so the result is based more on the individual players' skill.

We don't think twice about games being released competitive-ready nowdays but coming up with rulesets or mods to make them viable for competition used to be a really standard approach.

Deleted member 82 · Jul 8, 2018

mutantmagnet said:
You don't know what you are talking about.

The key factor in any viable competitive game is the skill cieling.

A high skill cieling is never a barrier to entry. It is a high skill floor that is the barrier.

If a game requires more reading than a classic game manual it is already too high of learning curve to understand the basics.

If a game is badly tuned at the start that is another barrier.

Multiple studios have studied this and determined that the biggest barrier to retaining new people are their first few competitive matches.

That's the biggest example of how bad tuning ruins the enjoyment of playing because most people aren't masochists who like to lose.

As for the other factor no studies exist but it should be patently obvious why something that requires higher levels of research just to understand the basics can become a bigger mood killer.

Right. I'm not saying the games shouldn't have technical depth. Just like something can be too competition-focused, it can also be too accessibility-focused. Brawl definitely exhibited some of those signs with the random tripping.

I'm just amused or annoyed (depending on the mood) when some competitive players (not all) act like the games are and should be designed for them first and foremost, and anything that's removed is a crime against the series or something. If you're going to have, say, wavedashing in the game, it definitely shouldn't be implemented in a way that a) requires ridiculous levels of dexterity, b) could potentially give you some health problems, c) makes you incapable of standing toe-to-toe with other skilled players unless you master it. Again, just like snaking in MK DS.

And the games are a multiplayer celebration of Nintendo games where cute characters from completely different games hit each other in the face. It's definitely not a zero-sum game where appealing to one side is automatically detrimental to the other side's enjoyment of the game, but if you're going to have a primary focus, it should absolutely be the average players, not the competitive players. Because the former make up at least 90% of the userbase, and are the reason why the series sold well (and continues to sell well) in the first place. I doubt Sakurai wishes death upon competitive players, but he probably just means that the game design of Smash Bros. shouldn't prioritize competitive players because they're a secondary audience.

Erik Twice · Jul 8, 2018

He is right on both counts.

collige · Jul 8, 2018

CG Amor said:
I don't play smash, but how are items casual? why are people restricted to playing certain stages and characters? How is being restrictive in the core gameplay seen as being competitive? I don't get it.

The issue with items is that they are inherently random and have the potential to be completely game changing. Winning a match because a healing item happened to spawn at your feet, for example, isn't very fair. Stages are a similar issue where you can get screwed over and many of the zanier ones have huge exploits in them or are just so crazy that people have to fight the level more than the other players.

No one bans characters. It's been contemplated though, and ironically, only for games that aren't Melee.

Lunar15 · Jul 8, 2018

I just remember bringing brawl to my friends when it came out, all of which are the pure definition of casual fans, and all of them feeling disappointed in how the game felt compared to melee. Don't get me wrong, we still played a lot of Brawl, but everyone knew something felt off.

LightEntite · Jul 8, 2018

CG Amor said:
I don't play smash, but how are items casual? why are people restricted to playing certain stages and characters? How is being restrictive in the core gameplay seen as being competitive? I don't get it.

imagine a professional boxing match

now imagine a professional boxing match where every 10 seconds, either fighter can go to their corner and press a button that can either:

a) randomly throws salt in either fighter's face
b) gives you a bat
c) gives you a twig
d) gives the opponent steel gloves
e) makes you lose the round

Intraxidance · Jul 8, 2018

LightEntite said:
imagine a professional boxing match

now imagine a professional boxing match where every 10 seconds, either fighter can go to their corner and press a button that can either:

a) randomly throws salt in either fighter's face
b) gives you a bat
c) gives you a twig
d) gives the opponent steel gloves
e) makes you lose the round

Sounds much more interesting than regular boxing

Datajoy · Jul 8, 2018

We don't need a new Melee.. Melee still exists. I'm glad Sakurai isn't trying to chase after that type of game anymore.

PlanetSmasher · Jul 8, 2018

Kilrogg said:
I'm just amused or annoyed (depending on the mood) when some competitive players (not all) act like the games are and should be designed for them first and foremost, and anything that's removed is a crime against the series or something. If you're going to have, say, wavedashing in the game, it definitely shouldn't be implemented in a way that a) requires ridiculous levels of dexterity, b) could potentially give you some health problems, c) makes you incapable of standing toe-to-toe with other skilled players unless you master it. Again, just like snaking in MK DS.

YUP. This is the core issue. Snaking ruined MKDS because the people who could do it completely and utterly obliterated the people who couldn't and it shattered the game balance and made the game pointless to even play online.

Unintended glitch mechanics should never define or dominate a game's core gameplay loop. Mercifully we live in an age of patches and fixes nowadays.

Sakurai: players “gave up on Melee because it’s too technical", won't focus too much on competitive

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