Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Crossing Eden · Nov 17, 2017

TheMango55 said:
So I understand and generally speaking agree with the idea that scantly clad muscle dudes are just as much or more male power fantasies as objectification.

But what I haven't yet discovered is what exactly a female power fantasy would look like. Bonus points if she's scantly clad, since male power fantasies can be and often are such.

Women in games who're power fantasies but not objectified tend to follow the same logic as male protagonists. Where they're pretty much the best and are the ones who have to deal with everything. As video game power fantasy tropes tend to be incredibly archetypical:

Just to name some recent examples:

Chloe/Drake, both are thieves, despite ND saying that they're "normal" they're both capable of enduring and surviving incredibly death defying stunts as well as taking on entire armies almost singlehandedly. On top of their impeccable physicality and seeming unlimited stamina:

AC Syndicate
Both Jacob and Evie have decades worth of parkour, stealth, and combat skills underneath their belt. Both can take own entire groups of people with ease. Both are so confident in their skills that their introduction is literally them both laughing at the insinuation that they'll have any trouble with their first mission:

Emily and Corvo:Both are not only incredibly skilled normally with stealth, movement, and combat but on top of that they each have a set of comically overpowered magic powers that basically put them on god status compared to everyone else:

Halo Spartans:Men and women who're spartans are on equal footing as they're all genetically engineered for combat and receive the same amount of training:

11789xh5-guardians-blue-team-cinematic-angles-covered.jpg

Even taking out equivalent male characters out of the question

Aloy, although young, is incredibly efficient at single handedly dealing with not only hordes of bandits but also incredibly hostile and destructive machines, with just a bow and a spear:

Faith is literally known as the person who's the very best at her profession, she can parkour around a futuristic city with ease and outrace anyone while also having tons of combat skills:

None of these characters are realistic at all in the grand scheme of things. And at the end of their respective tales it boils down to saving the world in the same way that it would if they were male.

Compare them to someone like Chloe from LIS whose "power" is......smack talking well enough so that people will listen to her..oh and graffiti:

Choppasmith · Nov 17, 2017

Kokonoe said:
Xenoblade 2

Oh God. Like I said, I've been on media blackout for Xenoblade, I didn't realize it was THAT ridiculous. I didn't think they were going all out with Gainaxing with the first one. The second one seems more Goofy and ridiculous in a different way.

Mewshuji said:
Actually now I got to thinking, I remember seeing an artist a while back redesign a lot of fighting game girls to be less overtly sexual.
http://www.svampriket.se/2015/02/makeover-friday/
I think most of these look pretty great, I really love Taki's and Cammy's in particular. What do you all think?

It's funny that Mai is essentially Maki or her pre KoF self. Morrigan reminds me of the cartoon, Felicia's is wierd but I like the others.

Dary · Nov 17, 2017

MaskedNdi said:
It definitely still cropped up back then. I remember playing the original Killer Instinct with my dad, picking Orchid, and feeling so ashamed when I saw character model. However, the problem definitely got a lot worse in the late 90s. I have scans from a 1997 PlayStation Magazine issue that talks about the problem.

Was reading through some early 90s (UK) magazines not long ago, and the issue was brought up a couple of times even then. Seeing stuff along the lines of "we need more women in the industry" dated 1992 was an embarrassing reminder of how little things have changed in 25 years.

kaytee · Nov 17, 2017

HypedBeast said:
I'm curious, how do you expect to make a difference in sexualization of certain games?

It can feel good to air out all of your grievances on a forum, but at the end of the day this discussion has been going on for over a 6 years, and the developers who want to take that criticism to heart (Bioware, Naughty Dog, Guerilla Games) have been taking steps to do so because it is what they want to do with their female characters, primarily western developers.

What incentive does a developer like for example Wayfoward (Shantae Developers) or Harada ( creator of Tekken) have to change their games when most of the criticism is just coming from forums, and one forum in particular ( most of the discussion on these topics is on ResetEra, previously on GAF, other forums aren't receptive to this kind of topic).

Especially when the games are still massively successful like Tekken 7, Nier Automata, Persona 5, FFXV, Overwatch, Injustice 2, etc, in spite of how some may feel about sexualization.

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, so I'll chime in.

Honestly, I don't expect to make much of a difference when it comes to objectification in games. But nothing will happen if no one speaks up.

You say the discussion has been going on for 6 years, but it's been happening for a lot longer than that. I used to hang out on women-centered boards long before then, and those discussions were definitely happening. They just weren't in the "mainstream" discussion. Mainstream here meaning male-dominated forums. People act like Feminist Frequency was the first time anyone ever brought up sexism in games.

But even though I don't know if I can have an individual impact, I've been heartened by where we're headed. We finally have developers who care about women's representation in games, and a lot of those games do well. There's pushback and a discussion about games that would've passed under the radar when I was younger. (It was alienating to see stuff like Dead or Alive be treated like normal when I was a thirteen year old.) Successful games that do have issues get negative feedback from players, and I can hope that influences those developers in the future. Interviewers ask them about it, for one. In the past, you wouldn't have developers justifying the fanservice in their games.

So the conversation has been effective in some ways. It's often slow and frustrating, and sometimes I do just need to vent on a forum. But at least now I feel like I have more options for games that don't push me away, and that's a huge improvement.

SchrodingerC · Nov 17, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
Women in games who're power fantasies but not objectified tend to follow the same logic as male protagonists. Where they're pretty much the best and are the ones who have to deal with everything. As video game power fantasy tropes tend to be incredibly archetypical:

Just to name some recent examples:

Chloe/Drake, both are thieves, despite ND saying that they're "normal" they're both capable of enduring and surviving incredibly death defying stunts as well as taking on entire armies almost singlehandedly. On top of their impeccable physicality and seeming unlimited stamina:

AC Syndicate
Both Jacob and Evie have decades worth of parkour, stealth, and combat skills underneath their belt. Both can take own entire groups of people with ease. Both are so confident in their skills that their introduction is literally them both laughing at the insinuation that they'll have any trouble with their first mission:

Emily and Corvo:Both are not only incredibly skilled normally wit stealth, movement, and combat but on top of that they each have a set of comically overpowered magic powers that basically put them on god status compared to everyone else:

Halo Spartans:Men and women who're spartans are on equal footing as they're all genetically engineered for combat and receive the same amount of training:

Even taking out equivalent male characters out of the question

Aloy, although young, is incredibly efficient at single handedly dealing with not only hordes of bandits but also incredibly hostile and destructive machines, with just a bow and a spear:

Faith is literally known as the person who's the very best at her profession, she can parkour around a futuristic city with ease and outrace anyone while also having tons of combat skills:

None of these characters are realistic at all in the grand scheme of things. Compare them to someone like Chloe from LIS whose "power" is......smack talking well enough so that people will listen to her..oh and graffiti:

I just love Emily's character. Kudos to the person(s) that designed her.

HypedBeast · Nov 17, 2017

MaskedNdi said:
I don't need every creator to change their mind. I just want more games with non-objectified characters.

Well you are getting that, there are a lot of genres that have little to no over sexualization for the most part(Third person action adventure games and WRPGs, though some exceptions like the Witcher 3).

I feel what you mean to say is that certain genres or titles that you care about ( like maybe Fighting Games or JRPGs) have a lot of sexualization.

Which is why I posed the question, what incentive do these developers have to make these changes, when a lot of their games are successful and the designs are well loved ( such as 2B or Twintelle ).

Antrax · Nov 17, 2017

I think Faith (from Mirror's Edge) is a great direction for female power fantasies. She's tough, capable, and feminine. That last part is important to me because, while I appreciate the lengths people had to go to back in the day to get female characters into games, a lot of those characters just ended up being masculine characters who could've easily just been men. The twist in OG Metroid is a twist precisely because Samus being a woman had to be hidden for the whole game, lest dude gamers get angry.

I'm happy to see that we can get empowering representations, not just of women, but of femininity in women.

atomsk eater · Nov 17, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
Women in games who're power fantasies but not objectified tend to follow the same logic as male protagonists. Where they're pretty much the best and are the ones who have to deal with everything. As video game power fantasy tropes tend to be incredibly archetypical:

Just to name some recent examples:

Chloe/Drake, both are thieves, despite ND saying that they're "normal" they're both capable of enduring and surviving incredibly death defying stunts as well as taking on entire armies almost singlehandedly. On top of their impeccable physicality and seeming unlimited stamina:

AC Syndicate
Both Jacob and Evie have decades worth of parkour, stealth, and combat skills underneath their belt. Both can take own entire groups of people with ease. Both are so confident in their skills that their introduction is literally them both laughing at the insinuation that they'll have any trouble with their first mission:

Emily and Corvo:Both are not only incredibly skilled normally with stealth, movement, and combat but on top of that they each have a set of comically overpowered magic powers that basically put them on god status compared to everyone else:

Halo Spartans:Men and women who're spartans are on equal footing as they're all genetically engineered for combat and receive the same amount of training:

Even taking out equivalent male characters out of the question

Aloy, although young, is incredibly efficient at single handedly dealing with not only hordes of bandits but also incredibly hostile and destructive machines, with just a bow and a spear:

Faith is literally known as the person who's the very best at her profession, she can parkour around a futuristic city with ease and outrace anyone while also having tons of combat skills:

None of these characters are realistic at all in the grand scheme of things. And at the end of their respective tales it boils down to saving the world in the same way that it would if they were male.

Compare them to someone like Chloe from LIS whose "power" is......smack talking well enough so that people will listen to her..oh and graffiti:

This is a good post. I was also about to say Aloy, despite not having played Horizon yet (I watched a few streams when it first came out), I still feel Aloy is a good example. She's incredibly central to the story and as such has to get All The Shit done while gaining the skills and talent necessary, and apparently many of the NPCs will flirt with her at various points (even though she sidesteps and ignores those attempts). Within her game she is shown to be both powerful and also desired (w/o needing to dress in a particularly revealing way).

TheMango55 · Nov 17, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
Women in games who're power fantasies but not objectified tend to follow the same logic as male protagonists. Where they're pretty much the best and are the ones who have to deal with everything. As video game power fantasy tropes tend to be incredibly archetypical:

Just to name some recent examples:

Chloe/Drake, both are thieves, despite ND saying that they're "normal" they're both capable of enduring and surviving incredibly death defying stunts as well as taking on entire armies almost singlehandedly. On top of their impeccable physicality and seeming unlimited stamina:

AC Syndicate
Both Jacob and Evie have decades worth of parkour, stealth, and combat skills underneath their belt. Both can take own entire groups of people with ease. Both are so confident in their skills that their introduction is literally them both laughing at the insinuation that they'll have any trouble with their first mission:

Emily and Corvo:Both are not only incredibly skilled normally with stealth, movement, and combat but on top of that they each have a set of comically overpowered magic powers that basically put them on god status compared to everyone else:

Halo Spartans:Men and women who're spartans are on equal footing as they're all genetically engineered for combat and receive the same amount of training:

Even taking out equivalent male characters out of the question

Aloy, although young, is incredibly efficient at single handedly dealing with not only hordes of bandits but also incredibly hostile and destructive machines, with just a bow and a spear:

Faith is literally known as the person who's the very best at her profession, she can parkour around a futuristic city with ease and outrace anyone while also having tons of combat skills:

None of these characters are realistic at all in the grand scheme of things. And at the end of their respective tales it boils down to saving the world in the same way that it would if they were male.

Compare them to someone like Chloe from LIS whose "power" is......smack talking well enough so that people will listen to her..oh and graffiti:

Great examples but how about scantly clad examples like Kratos or Conan?

Wonder woman is a great example also from movies and comics, but as far as games go how about Sophita from Soul Calibur?

She has various cleavage and sideboob costumes, but her character intros and victory poses don't seem to be male gaze centric (at least that I have seen), is one of the more serious characters in the Soul Calibur series, and canonically won the first game along with help from Taki.

Crossing Eden · Nov 17, 2017

SchrodingerC said:
I just love Emily's character. Kudos to the person(s) that designed her.

Same, such a sleek design.

kaytee · Nov 17, 2017

HypedBeast said:
Well you are getting that, there are a lot of genres that have little to no over sexualization for the most part(Third person action adventure games and WRPGs, though some exceptions like the Witcher 3).

I feel what you mean to say is that certain genres or titles that you care about ( like maybe Fighting Games or JRPGs) have a lot of sexualization.

Which is why I posed the question, what incentive do these developers have to make these changes, when a lot of their games are successful and the designs are well loved ( such as 2B or Twintelle ).

I think the only possible incentives are either monetary or moral. So for most developers, they have no incentive.

MaskedNdi · Nov 17, 2017

HypedBeast said:
Well you are getting that, there are a lot of genres that have little to no over sexualization for the most part(Third person action adventure games and WRPGs, though some exceptions like the Witcher 3).

I feel what you mean to say is that certain genres or titles that you care about ( like maybe Fighting Games or JRPGs) have a lot of sexualization.

Which is why I posed the question, what incentive do these developers have to make these changes, when a lot of their games are successful and the designs are well loved ( such as 2B or Twintelle ).

I'm sorry, but this feels pretty condescending.

I meant exactly what I said. I don't need any specific creators or developers to change their mind. I just want developers and publishers to know that a segment of the market is hungry for positive representation. I would like to see more indie devs creating JRPGs like Undertale. I would like it if artists weren't told things like "all females should be on the cute side." I would like it if publishers saw the success of titles like Life is Strange and chose to publish more games like it. I would like to see more women working in the game industry.

We've made positive progress because women were willing to speak up. We need to keep on making sure that our voices are heard.

MaskedNdi · Nov 17, 2017

TheMango55 said:
Great examples but how about scantly clad examples like Kratos or Conan?

Kratos and Conan aren't great examples for a number of reasons. People usually point out that Kratos is a male power fantasy, but I would like to add that they are less sexualized than the women that appear alongside them.

In contrast, women are often highly sexualized while the men around them are fully clothed.

TheMango55 · Nov 18, 2017

MaskedNdi said:
Kratos and Conan aren't great examples for a number of reasons. People usually point out that Kratos is a male power fantasy, but I would like to add that they are less sexualized than the women that appear alongside them.

I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't claiming they are sexualized and aren't power fantasies. I am instead stating that since they are examples of non-sexualized male power fantasies that wear revealing clothing, certainly there exists female equivalents.

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

MaskedNdi said:
I'm sorry, but this feels pretty condescending.

I meant exactly what I said. I don't need any specific creators or developers to change their mind. I just want developers and publishers to know that a segment of the market is hungry for positive representation. I would like to see more indie devs creating JRPGs like Undertale. I would like it if artists weren't told things like "all females should be on the cute side." I would like it if publishers saw the success of titles like Life is Strange and chose to publish more games like it. I would like to see more women working in the game industry.

We've made positive progress because women were willing to speak up. We need to keep on making sure that our voices are heard.

Okay I see where you are coming from. My question wasn't really aimed at you in particular, but more at HyperFerret and a couple others.

With the bringing up of specific franchises (like Tekken,Fire Emblem,Xenoblade) and what people want changed in those franchises, it makes me think why would the developers and artist change it if they don't want to.

Do games need sexualization to sell well? In my opinion it's not necessary, a game will sell regardless.

Do people like sexy designs that are well designed? Yes, very much so.

However, what it really boils down to, do the artist/character designers like designing these kinds of cheesecake designs? A lot of the time the answer is yes.

From industry legends like George Kamitani and Akihiko Yoshida to newer artist like Mariel Cartwright and Alex Ahad, alot of the designs people critique (like in fighting games and RPGs) are made by industry professionals who like to make these kind of designs.

As an artist myself I understand wanting to do your own thing, even if you get critiqued for it, which is why I asked what incentive do these designers have to desexualize their designs of their volition if they dont want to.

Luckily their are games being made that cater to people who like more conservative female designs and don't care for hyper sexualization.

weemadarthur · Nov 18, 2017

TheMango55 said:
I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't claiming they are sexualized and aren't power fantasies. I am instead stating that since they are examples of non-sexualized male power fantasies that wear revealing clothing, certainly there exists female equivalents.

There is no reason to believe that would follow, particularly given the treatment women receive in the real world for such clothing choices.

MaskedNdi · Nov 18, 2017

TheMango55 said:
I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't claiming they are sexualized and aren't power fantasies. I am instead stating that since they are examples of non-sexualized male power fantasies that wear revealing clothing, certainly there exists female equivalents.

I did misunderstand! My apologies.

She's already been mentioned, but the best example I can think of is Wonder Woman. She's certainly sexualized in many of the comics and games she appears in, but there are lots of positive portrayals of her as well. Xena might be a good example too.

kaytee · Nov 18, 2017

TheMango55 said:
I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't claiming they are sexualized and aren't power fantasies. I am instead stating that since they are examples of non-sexualized male power fantasies that wear revealing clothing, certainly there exists female equivalents.

The context is too different for it to be equivalent. You can even see it in what's socially acceptable. Men can take off their shirts in public and women can't (by law in many places). That doesn't mean no one is attracted to shirtless men, but shirtless men aren't automatically seen as sex objects.

Maybe a female character wearing a crop top or shorts could be framed in a non-objectifying way. But I don't think a woman in a skimpy outfit that's the equivalent of shirtlessness on a man can be de-sexualized. Women's bodies are seen as being inherently sexual.

Sanlei · Nov 18, 2017

HyperFerret said:
I found two for you and then I realized my time is better spent.

First one is probably not the best example, as its kinda the point of the game to be offensive in a not serious taking way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7hedUh3tSE
Its okay to be offended by both, but both are pretty unserious. Even to the point it uses actual javs, which clearly are offensive and presents them in a ridiculous way.

Second one is just your typicial beach scene, sure it shows more of the girls than the guys, but its still a quite tame scene for every kind of media. Just feeling like you could take every other scene or design from the game than a beach scene to make the point across, like the skintight thief costume or using beach costumes as dlcs to fight on other places, which is a worse fanservice as it wouldnt be appropriate in those settings by default.

Its understandable to dislike sexualization, but not every kind is bad.

MaskedNdi said:
I would like it if artists weren't told things like "all females should be on the cute side." I would like it if publishers saw the success of titles like Life is Strange and chose to publish more games like it. I would like to see more women working in the game industry.

Males are also often on the cute side in jap media like in XBC2 the main. Its an easier tool to make characters easy likeable without including much character development to make them likeable. Also a reason why Link and Mario are getting cuter with more details and why Zelda is "more kawaii" because they spend only a few short scenes on her. Most male protagonists are so cute they dont have any personality outside of that just to be likeable.

Sure its way more extreme on females, but still its better to be on the cute side than on the sexualized side? Persona 5 has forced romancing element with all females without much of a development and cheating. Thats quite worse than a design choice of a single character to follow the overall direction. The main males simplified at best too and more on the cuter side, besides the silent main. Its the overall direction in said game, the other design wouldnt fit within the overall direction, even if some like it more than the overall cute direction. You can blame romancing options for that or the fact that cute is more likeable for both males and females without spending much script on them. And yeah the romancing is the weakest part of persona 5 and has the shortest script. It feels rushed and useless compared to the story, even if some character backgrounds were well done.

XBC2 is more free in the design decisions so far, but yeah it also includes very sexualized designs for that reason. So "cute" isnt always that bad, even if more freedom to express characters is better. And in cases like Persona 5 just a reason to force in a quite weak feature.

Htown · Nov 18, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
I still can't wrap my head around these dudes (emphasis on dudes) feeling the need to post in this thread to tell us what women feel or don't feel, when they could be listening to actual women telling us directly what they feel. As someone who highly values when people in very different situations to mine give me their perspectives (I mean, it's precious knowledge I can't get any other way!), this is both mindboggling and so very depressing. We're unfortunately used to men not listening to women, but this truly is some next level shit of shutting them down. This needs to stop now.

because they don't actually give a fuck how women feel either way, they're just afraid somebody's going to take away their "sexy" game characters

TheMango55 · Nov 18, 2017

kaytee said:
The context is too different for it to be equivalent. You can even see it in what's socially acceptable. Men can take off their shirts in public and women can't (by law in many places). That doesn't mean no one is attracted to shirtless men, but shirtless men aren't automatically seen as sex objects.

Maybe a female character wearing a crop top or shorts could be framed in a non-objectifying way. But I don't think a woman in a skimpy outfit that's the equivalent of shirtlessness on a man can be de-sexualized. Women's bodies are seen as being inherently sexual.

How about my example from earlier of Sophita from Soul Calibur. Some of her outfits are pretty skimpy but I don't remember seeing her objectified.

How about the female barbarian from Diablo?

Laiza · Nov 18, 2017

TheMango55 said:
How about my example from earlier of Sophita from Soul Calibur. Some of her outfits are pretty skimpy but I don't remember seeing her objectified.

How about the female barbarian from Diablo?

If we're going this route, the female raider from For Honor is a much better example of the same archetype (no boob plate or loin cloth):

Speaking of For Honor, I have to get them credit for my favorite renditions of female samurai pretty much ever:

Now I'm pining for a genuine Samurai Souls game... but alas, that ship has sailed. (No, Nioh is not that game.)

kaytee · Nov 18, 2017

TheMango55 said:
How about my example from earlier of Sophita from Soul Calibur. Some of her outfits are pretty skimpy but I don't remember seeing her objectified.

How about the female barbarian from Diablo?

Sophitia's not a good example.

She's like boob jiggle the character too. Her original design is a lot better.

The Diablo design... It's nice to see some body diversity. (Her breasts are kind of silly for someone with that low body fat, though. Check out a female bodybuilder.) I haven't played the game but I just looked up a video of the male vs female barbarian character, and she doesn't move differently so that's good. But I'll admit that, yeah, when I see a bikini top and loinclothy bottom I still think it's ridiculous looking. That's probably the best you can do with that design decision, though.

Laiza said:
If we're going this route, the female raider from For Honor is a much better example of the same archetype (no boob plate or loin cloth):

Speaking of For Honor, I have to get them credit for my favorite renditions of female samurai pretty much ever:

Now I'm pining for a genuine Samurai Souls game... but alas, that ship has sailed. (No, Nioh is not that game.)

These are so cool.

Suede · Nov 18, 2017

Sanlei said:
First one is probably not the best example, as its kinda the point of the game to be offensive in a not serious taking way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7hedUh3tSE
Its okay to be offended by both, but both are pretty unserious. Even to the point it uses actual javs, which clearly are offensive and presents them in a ridiculous way.

I'm not really sure what the joke is about watching live-action videos of women in skimpy clothes acting all seductive. I think it's pretty clear that it's there for the horndogs playing the game to jack off to haha.

Deleted member 12009 · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
From industry legends like George Kamitani and Akihiko Yoshida to newer artist like Mariel Cartwright and Alex Ahad, alot of the designs people critique (like in fighting games and RPGs) are made by industry professionals who like to make these kind of designs.

As an artist myself I understand wanting to do your own thing, even if you get critiqued for it, which is why I asked what incentive do these designers have to desexualize their designs of their volition if they dont want to.

Luckily their are games being made that cater to people who like more conservative female designs and don't care for hyper sexualization.

It's not so cut and dry as that. Very few game artists have the weight or fame to stand on their own like the ones you've described. In fact, many characters end up designed by committee or even shopped around to multiple artists/concepts before they're approved. Artists aren't just working in a bubble and churning out cheesecake- some of this responsibility is shared. I know you're an artist, I know you value your autonomy, but sexy art isn't just made in a vacuum then passed on to modelers.

And, as some have already mentioned, there are entire genres that seem to be dominated by cheesecake, such as fighting games, so if you're a fan of the mechanics you learn to tolerate the garbage.

kaytee · Nov 18, 2017

Sanlei said:
First one is probably not the best example, as its kinda the point of the game to be offensive in a not serious taking way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7hedUh3tSE
Its okay to be offended by both, but both are pretty unserious. Even to the point it uses actual javs, which clearly are offensive and presents them in a ridiculous way.

Second one is just your typicial beach scene, sure it shows more of the girls than the guys, but its still a quite tame scene for every kind of media. Just feeling like you could take every other scene or design from the game than a beach scene to make the point across, like the skintight thief costume or using beach costumes as dlcs to fight on other places, which is a worse fanservice as it wouldnt be appropriate in those settings by default.

Its understandable to dislike sexualization, but not every kind is bad.

Males are also often on the cute side in jap media like in XBC2 the main. Its an easier tool to make characters easy likeable without including much character development to make them likeable. Also a reason why Link and Mario are getting cuter with more details and why Zelda is "more kawaii" because they spend only a few short scenes on her. Most male protagonists are so cute they dont have any personality outside of that just to be likeable.

Sure its way more extreme on females, but still its better to be on the cute side than on the sexualized side? Persona 5 has forced romancing element with all females without much of a development and cheating. Thats quite worse than a design choice of a single character to follow the overall direction. The main males simplified at best too and more on the cuter side, besides the silent main. Its the overall direction in said game, the other design wouldnt fit within the overall direction, even if some like it more than the overall cute direction. You can blame romancing options for that or the fact that cute is more likeable for both males and females without spending much script on them. And yeah the romancing is the weakest part of persona 5 and has the shortest script. It feels rushed and useless compared to the story, even if some character backgrounds were well done.

XBC2 is more free in the design decisions so far, but yeah it also includes very sexualized designs for that reason. So "cute" isnt always that bad, even if more freedom to express characters is better. And in cases like Persona 5 just a reason to force in a quite weak feature.

It's hard to take you seriously on this topic when you have a panty shot in your avatar.

Just because Yakuza doesn't take itself seriously doesn't mean this is a bad example. Things that are jokes can still be sexist and objectifying. In this particular clip, there's nothing about the actual titillation that's a joke. The tissues and the trophy are supposed to be funny, but it doesn't mean you didn't just watch something objectifying.

I've seen worse than Persona 5 too, but that doesn't mean it isn't an example. You even admit it focuses on the girls. You also admit the "cute" thing is more extreme for the female characters. I bolded both. People criticizing those choices know the rational behind them, but we can still criticize the choice.

It's not necessary to talk about whether cute is better sexy, honestly. The problem is female characters having to conform to a narrow ideal.

Morrigan · Nov 18, 2017

TheMango55 said:
But what I haven't yet discovered is what exactly a female power fantasy would look like.

Recently: Aloy (Horizon Zero Dawn), Emily Kaldwin (Dishonored 2), Billie Lurk (Dishonored: Death of the Outsider), Chloe Frazer (Uncharted Lost Legacy)
Semi-recently: Estelle Bright (Trails in the Sky), Nilin (Remember Me), Lilith, Maya, Gaige, Athena, Nisha (Borderlands series)
Older titles: Samus (pre-Other M of course), Alis Landale (Phantasy Star), Alys Brangwin (Phantasy Star IV), Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden 3)

It's... not really complicated. A female power fantasy is not that different from a male power fantasy: she's a character that's cool, powerful, highly skilled at what they do*, that you feel good about controlling as they kick ass, solve problems, explore the world, etc. and look cool while doing it. Whereas a character like Heather (Silent Hill 3) wouldn't be a power fantasy, much like the male SH characters aren't male power fantasies either (they are scared, vulnerable, confused, etc.).

The difference is that male power fantasies may sometimes involve exposing their skin, because a tough shirtless dude is meant to exude power and confidence. That they can be sexually attractive while doing it is a bonus, not the intended feature (and sometimes, they aren't -- don't know many who actually think Kratos is "hot", even less with the Hulk). And often, if they get even more scantily clad, it's actually played for laughs, not to titillate (Raiden in MGS2, for example). With scantily clad women, the intent by disrobing them isn't to show how strong they are, but to be ogled by the viewer. You can see this in the pose, too. Look at the famous "Hot Ryu". Is he sexualized? Yeah, a bit. But not that much; he's just a shirtless dude in a combat-ready pose, ready to kick ass. Compare to how scantily clad women are portrayed, even the so-called "badass" ones. They'll twist their spine at impossible angles just so you can look at her ass and her boobs at the same time (the very common boobs-and-butt pose that is endemic to superhero comics -- pretty much no woman ever does this IRL). And of course, Ryu is wearing judoka pants, but R. Mika, a wrestler, is wearing an outfit so ridiculous that it wouldn't even stay on if she started running, let alone doing wrestling moves. If I played her I'd feel like a ridiculous T&A doll instead of a kick-ass wrestler. You don't have to cover her up that much, female wrestlers often wear really revealing outfits and that's totally fine, but damn, at least give the poor woman some breast support. xD

* Estelle and Alis don't start out this way, as they are "junior" kind of adventurers, but over time do grow to become very powerful heroines, so that still fits the archetype.

TheMango55 · Nov 18, 2017

kaytee said:
But I'll admit that, yeah, when I see a bikini top and loinclothy bottom I still think it's ridiculous looking. That's probably the best you can do with that design decision, though.

I mean any loincloth armor is ridiculous, man or woman. I just don't think it's inherently sexual.

As far as boobplate goes, it's absolutely counter intuitive and would be a weakness in battle, but if there were more examples of armors made for women in history I'm sure there would be examples of boobplate, because often people don't let practicality get in the way of a "cool" looking armor. Certainly didn't stop people from making muscle cuirasses, which have the same problem as boobplate but on a smaller scale.

And of course dickplate

And the pièce de résistance, the armored mustache.

Morrigan · Nov 18, 2017

Not sure why a few weird examples of unusual ornamental armour pieces have to do with anything. Historically, female combatants have worn pretty much the same kinds of armour as men.

In martial arts, they still do.

TheMango55 · Nov 18, 2017

Morrigan said:
Not sure why a few weird examples of unusual ornamental armour pieces have to do with anything. Historically, female combatants have worn pretty much the same kinds of armour as men.

In martial arts, they still do.

Mostly just wanting to post some funny armor.

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

saintpride said:
It's not so cut and dry as that. Very few game artists have the weight or fame to stand on their own like the ones you've described. In fact, many characters end up designed by committee or even shopped around to multiple artists/concepts before they're approved. Artists aren't just working in a bubble and churning out cheesecake- some of this responsibility is shared. I know you're an artist, I know you value your autonomy, but sexy art isn't just made in a vacuum then passed on to modelers.

And, as some have already mentioned, there are entire genres that seem to be dominated by cheesecake, such as fighting games, so if you're a fan of the mechanics you learn to tolerate the garbage.

I'll address your first point a bit later, but as for your second point, I have to ask... what are you going to do about it? Because its basically you against the target demographic.

Im going to tell you something you probably already know, but its worth addressing... a lot of the games that feature sexualized women tend to be aimed at teenagers, and I can say as someone who just graduated highschool in May(date on my profile is way wrong), those kinds of designs can easily sell someone on a game.

I know I saw 2B and I didnt know what the fuck a Nier was, but me and my friends had to get that game and my friend loved the fuck out of that design and dressed as her

This also applies to anime that tends to feature sexualized characters, they probably dont appeal to many adults (which is what this forum is made up of) because they are aimed at teenage nerds or people who like media aimed at teenagers.

Now of course not all video games aimed at teenagers have to have sexualized character designs(Horizon), but genres like Fighters and JRPGs appeal mostly to nerds who love things like Shonen anime and comic books because of their manga influenced visuals.

It may be juvenile to those outside of its demographic, but for those its aimed for they absolutely love it( like me).

RM8 · Nov 18, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
Same, such a sleek design.

Why do people not like this!? Like seriously. Why on earth would this badass design be better by having her tits and ass hanging out? I will absolutely never get it.

kaytee · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
I have to ask... what are you going to do about it? Because its basically you against the target demographic.

I'll assume you don't mean it this way, but this feels like you're rubbing people's noses in their powerlessness. I already know most developers of the games I like don't give a shit what I think and don't see me as their target demographic. There's nothing I can do about it.

I like JRPGs. I like anime. I often do not like the designs or the way female characters are treated. I know a lot of the audience love all the fanservice, but it sucks to be discounted and treated like an outsider of some of my favorite games or TV shows.

Crossing Eden · Nov 18, 2017

RM8 said:
Why do people not like this!? Like seriously. Why on earth would this badass design be better by having her tits and ass hanging out? I will absolutely never get it.

It's when people call designs like that boring that really confuses me. Like that design says tells you literally everything you need to know about Emily as a character compared to designs like Cidney.

RM8 · Nov 18, 2017

I would really benefit from trying to move on from my favourite genres, really. This is not to mean I want to quit my favourite games which are often fighting games, but by not being into stuff like Dishonored or Assassin's Creed I miss out on some pretty great art and characters. And I'm stuck with R. Mika, lol.

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

RM8 said:
Why do people not like this!? Like seriously. Why on earth would this badass design be better by having her tits and ass hanging out? I will absolutely never get it.

Who said that

kaytee said:
I'll assume you don't mean it this way, but this feels like you're rubbing people's noses in their powerlessness. I already know most developers of the games I like don't give a shit what I think and don't see me as their target demographic. There's nothing I can do about it.

I like JRPGs. I like anime. I often do not like the designs or the way female characters are treated. I know a lot of the audience love all the fanservice, but it sucks to be discounted and treated like an outsider of some of my favorite games or TV shows.

I didnt mean it like that, sometimes tone is hard to tell through text.

When it comes to the games that are most targeted, it is games that tend to be anime inspired, either moderately(Overwatch,League) or embrace its anime influences completely (Fighting games,JRPGs).
The crossover of teenagers with expendable income who like violence and sexuality in their cartoons, and video games like that, is huge. Most people who like fighting games tend to be into anime, even if it is just mainstream shows such as Dragonball or Naruto.

So you have two camps, the people who like this hyper sexuality in their games, and the people who bemoan these things, and the problem is( at least for fighting games,which is what Im familiar with) that most of the people who criticize these aspects of fighting games tend to not be big figure heads in the community.

It would be a lot different if Gootecks, Mike Ross, or Maximillian Dood or all of the Shoryuken forums made of a point of criticism against these elements rather than say Anita Sarkessian or a ResetEra poster, one is simply more respected in the community than the other.

So while I understand your struggle, I also want you to give me a realistic solution that will get the developers and the communitys you care about on your side.

Redcrayon · Nov 18, 2017

97_Mentality said:
I think this has become more of an issue because of how good graphics have gotten.
You really didn't hear about this back in the 8/16 bit era.
Maybe I don't play enough video games or have become de-sensitized but I hardly notice it
If people are concerned, why don't you get in touch with developers and voice your opinion.. we are more connected to content providers now then ever
If games started covering up more, I wouldn't care and I think most people wouldn't either

It isn't just graphics, although of course that plays a part in a discussion about visuals. We didnt hear about this much in the 8-bit era because games were heavily marketed as toys for young boys, and the discussions of such players (I was one!) wasn't exactly on the same level of discourse. I certainly don't remember my playground discussions of the cover of 'Barbarian' having much to do with sexism as opposed to some vague feeling thatI really liked the art for some reason. Can't imagine why. :D Suffice to say, I think my thoughts on this artwork would be a little more sophisticated when discussing it's merits, influences and wider implications with my wife (or on here) today than with my crowd of playground peers 30 years ago.

In the 16-bit era, as far as I can remember, much of the criticism around social issues in games was centred on games courting controversy with gore rather than the ninjas in skimpy outfits in games like Mortal Kombat. Female fighters in leotards still weren't quite visably (or perhaps audibly) disconcerting enough to bother parents as much as little Timmy pushing a girl into some spikes before her head flew off and a collection of screams and 'fatality' erupting from the telly.

As the average age and diversity of the audience has increased, no wonder the range of discussions have too. I mean, games magazines in the 1980s and early 1990s were still clearly aimed at kids, it wasn't until 1995 when Edge launched that I saw games media assume the audience were now adults and start to discuss it, like the film industry, as technology and digital entertainment rather than a constant release schedule of that year's toys.

cosmicblizzard · Nov 18, 2017

Morrigan said:
Recently: Aloy (Horizon Zero Dawn), Emily Kaldwin (Dishonored 2), Billie Lurk (Dishonored: Death of the Outsider), Chloe Frazer (Uncharted Lost Legacy)
Semi-recently: Estelle Bright (Trails in the Sky), Nilin (Remember Me), Lilith, Maya, Gaige, Athena, Nisha (Borderlands series)
Older titles: Samus (pre-Other M of course), Alis Landale (Phantasy Star), Alys Brangwin (Phantasy Star IV), Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden 3)

It's... not really complicated. A female power fantasy is not that different from a male power fantasy: she's a character that's cool, powerful, highly skilled at what they do*, that you feel good about controlling as they kick ass, solve problems, explore the world, etc. and look cool while doing it. Whereas a character like Heather (Silent Hill 3) wouldn't be a power fantasy, much like the male SH characters aren't male power fantasies either (they are scared, vulnerable, confused, etc.).

The difference is that male power fantasies may sometimes involve exposing their skin, because a tough shirtless dude is meant to exude power and confidence. That they can be sexually attractive while doing it is a bonus, not the intended feature (and sometimes, they aren't -- don't know many who actually think Kratos is "hot", even less with the Hulk). And often, if they get even more scantily clad, it's actually played for laughs, not to titillate (Raiden in MGS2, for example). With scantily clad women, the intent by disrobing them isn't to show how strong they are, but to be ogled by the viewer. You can see this in the pose, too. Look at the famous "Hot Ryu". Is he sexualized? Yeah, a bit. But not that much; he's just a shirtless dude in a combat-ready pose, ready to kick ass. Compare to how scantily clad women are portrayed, even the so-called "badass" ones. They'll twist their spine at impossible angles just so you can look at her ass and her boobs at the same time (the very common boobs-and-butt pose that is endemic to superhero comics -- pretty much no woman ever does this IRL). And of course, Ryu is wearing judoka pants, but R. Mika, a wrestler, is wearing an outfit so ridiculous that it wouldn't even stay on if she started running, let alone doing wrestling moves. If I played her I'd feel like a ridiculous T&A doll instead of a kick-ass wrestler. You don't have to cover her up that much, female wrestlers often wear really revealing outfits and that's totally fine, but damn, at least give the poor woman some breast support. xD

* Estelle and Alis don't start out this way, as they are "junior" kind of adventurers, but over time do grow to become very powerful heroines, so that still fits the archetype.

So do you believe that sexualized/scantily clad and female power fantasy are mutually exclusive unlike with men?

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

cosmicblizzard said:
So do you believe that sexualized/scantily clad and female power fantasy are mutually exclusive unlike with men?

Yeah that is what I was thinking, what about characters like Chun-Li who are well respected but also sexy.

kaytee · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
I didnt mean it like that, sometimes tone is hard to tell through text.

I know you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across anyway.

HypedBeast said:
So you have two camps, the people who like this hyper sexuality in their games, and the people who bemoan these things, and the problem is( at least for fighting games,which is what Im familiar with) that most of the people who criticize these aspects of fighting games tend to not be big figure heads in the community.

It would be a lot different if Gootecks, Mike Ross, or Maximillian Dood or all of the Shoryuken forums made of a point of criticism against these elements rather than say Anita Sarkessian or a ResetEra poster, one is simply more respected in the community than the other.

I wonder... what the difference between these two groups might be? Seems like a lot of guys are respected figures in the community. And then women are Anita Sarkeesian (who is respected by people who matter, frankly) or random posters on a forum. There may be a big problem with women being respected in the video game community.

HypedBeast said:
So while I understand your struggle, I also want you to give me a realistic solution that will get the developers and the communitys you care about on your side.

One way is to articulate my point along with other women in threads like this and convince people that it matters. Identifying a problem doesn't mean I have to give you a magic solution. I hope you can realize how frustrating it is to be belittled and ignored by a community and then have you come here and ask how I plan to not be belittled and ignored.

Laiza · Nov 18, 2017

cosmicblizzard said:
So do you believe that sexualized/scantily clad and female power fantasy are mutually exclusive unlike with men?

HypedBeast said:
Yeah that is what I was thinking, what about characters like Chun-Li who are well respected but also sexy.

See:

kaytee said:
The context is too different for it to be equivalent. You can even see it in what's socially acceptable. Men can take off their shirts in public and women can't (by law in many places). That doesn't mean no one is attracted to shirtless men, but shirtless men aren't automatically seen as sex objects.

Maybe a female character wearing a crop top or shorts could be framed in a non-objectifying way. But I don't think a woman in a skimpy outfit that's the equivalent of shirtlessness on a man can be de-sexualized. Women's bodies are seen as being inherently sexual.

As for Chun-Li types, it's complicated. They can be power fantasies that are also unfortunately subject to the male gaze. Chun-Li is at least dressed in a more classy manner than many of her counterparts in the same game.

RM8 · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
Yeah that is what I was thinking, what about characters like Chun-Li who are well respected but also sexy.

It certainly is convenient that it just has to be both, in the case of female characters. And even Chun got a boob job and lost a lot of fabric in SFV, so yeah.

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

RM8 said:
It certainly is convenient that it just has to be both, in the case of female characters. And even Chun got a boob job and lost a lot of fabric in SFV, so yeah.

I feel that being both is besides the fact, she is still inspirational to a lot of female gamers( like Ricki Ortiz)
Also a bit OT, but that is demonstrably false,Chun has always been busty, its just that SFV resembles Third Stike proportion wise.

cosmicblizzard · Nov 18, 2017

Laiza said:
See:

As for Chun-Li types, it's complicated. They can be power fantasies that are also unfortunately subject to the male gaze. Chun-Li is at least dressed in a more classy manner than many of her counterparts in the same game.

I guess I just don't see how something that's inherently sexual can't simultaneously be a power fantasy for women when it can be for men.

If it's entirely based on social climate, that's something that's subject to change. Like would highly sexualized female power fantasies be easier to swallow in Ancient Greece when women were considered more sexually motivated than men?

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

double post

Redcrayon · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
So while I understand your struggle, I also want you to give me a realistic solution that will get the developers and the communitys you care about on your side.

Does there really need to be one? Discussion for its own sake is cathartic and raises awareness. Even if some bigshot developer in Japan has no interest in hearing criticism, it's still worth talking about if only so that other people here don't think the issue has gone away, and to perhaps show those unwilling to dive into these debates that some people still want to discuss the issues.

Not everything needs to be a campaign with a clear victory condition, talking about a recurring aspect of games is kinda what the forum is for. I mean, I don't enter threads about action vs turn-based combat in RPGs with the mindset that unless I have a roadmap to convince Square to go back to turn-based for FF, it's all a bit pointless. Sometimes I just want to talk about RPGs, laugh at the funny stuff people come up with, enjoy the discussion etc.

I think Anita has probably had more effect than you give her credit for though- publishers are global businesses, and when the most popular western developer owned by Sony takes notice of something, it surely gives it wider import across the company. Not always for the same reasons western studios might state that it just makes for better characters, but perhaps because publishers care about potential ways to make games more appealing to everyone worldwide because there might be money in it. For developers focused inwards on Japan, maybe not. For those making a huge project that needs to sell worldwide to make a profit? Yeah, at this point they are probably going to ask 'why isn't Aloy sexualised?' Just out of curiosity.

Deleted member 12009 · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
I'll address your first point a bit later, but as for your second point, I have to ask... what are you going to do about it? Because its basically you against the target demographic.

Im going to tell you something you probably already know, but its worth addressing... a lot of the games that feature sexualized women tend to be aimed at teenagers, and I can say as someone who just graduated highschool in May(date on my profile is way wrong), those kinds of designs can easily sell someone on a game.

I know I saw 2B and I didnt know what the fuck a Nier was, but me and my friends had to get that game and my friend loved the fuck out of that design and dressed as her

This also applies to anime that tends to feature sexualized characters, they probably dont appeal to many adults (which is what this forum is made up of) because they are aimed at teenage nerds or people who like media aimed at teenagers.

Now of course not all video games aimed at teenagers have to have sexualized character designs(Horizon), but genres like Fighters and JRPGs appeal mostly to nerds who love things like Shonen anime and comic books because of their manga influenced visuals.

It may be juvenile to those outside of its demographic, but for those its aimed for they absolutely love it( like me).

You're missing a big part of the equation. Teenagers are often not out target demographic outside of a handful of licensed franchises. The teenage market is tangential because teenagers don't have disposable income. It's true, the 18-24 demographic is powerful, but as gaming matures the 25-32 year old demo is becoming a primary source of income for the industry on both sides of the ocean. I've worked in video games for 5 years now, and 'geek media' for nearly 9. I can't claim to have the whole picture, but having worked both on marketing and production sides of gaming and anime, I can tell you right now that attempting to frame these genres around the idea that sexually frustrated teenagers are the primary demographic is based on faulty information.

Firstly, I think it goes without saying that certain genres, like fighting games, have seen an uptick in objectively sexual designs in the past few years. I think you're right on this element- the reason is obviously to cater to an otaku crowd who will buy anything with explicit costumes. However, this is having a lashback effect on the industry as a whole, especially as people begin to filter out of hardcore genres like MOBAs and Fighters and into casual games like team-based shooters and battle royales. Simply put- the ever increasing focus on cheesecake is driving away core gamers and casual fans edit: who no longer relate to the content being provided.

And it's not just happening in gaming. In anime there is a big pushback in the west against the fan-service laden anime that is being produced in Japan. For instance, 4 years ago I had the unfortunate opportunity to work on a very popular kids show here in the states that was localized from a young-adult series. I had the Sisyphean job of going through every frame of animation and drawing leggings on all the underage girls in order to hide their panties as at least once an episode an animator would slip in a flickering skirt or some other nonsense. The amount of money this drained from my then employer was so staggering it almost shut us down, creating a huge rift between here and the production company in Japan. The reality is that trying to appeal to both wide audiences and otaku markets was a poor strategy, and this has ultimately led to fewer shows being localized over here and other parts of the world while also continuing to shrink the appeal of anime to a wider audience on account of there simply being less of it being played.

What I mean to say is that there are real world consequences to simply trying to court teens and otaku with superficial cheesecake.

Yet that is neither here nor there. Why we have these conversations is to voice our frustration with poor representation and to make it known that speaking out against this kind of content is acceptable in environments where people are otherwise hostile to criticism. Simply having this conversation and making our opinions known to you is constructive, because even if you disagree you'll take these arguments away to ponder elsewhere. Not only that, but many of us believe that better representation should be fought for regardless of how difficult the fight may be.

HypedBeast · Nov 18, 2017

Redcrayon said:
Does there really need to be one? Discussion for its own sake is cathartic and raises awareness. Even if some bigshot developer in Japan has no interest in hearing criticism, it's still worth talking about if only so that other people here don't think the issue has gone away, and to perhaps show those unwilling to dive into these debates that some people still want to discuss the issues.

Not everything needs to be a campaign with a clear victory condition, talking about a recurring aspect of games is kinda what the forum is for. I mean, I don't enter threads about action vs turn-based combat in RPGs with the mindset that unless I have a roadmap to convince Square to go back to turn-based for FF, it's all a bit pointless. Sometimes I just want to talk about RPGs, laugh at the funny stuff people come up with, enjoy the discussion etc.

I think Anita has probably had more effect than you give her credit for though- publishers are global businesses, and when the most popular western developer owned by Sony takes notice of something, it surely gives it wider import across the company. Not always for the same reasons that it just makes for better characters, but perhaps because publishers care about potential ways to make games more appealing to everyone because there might be money in it.

Anita has effect on Neil Druckman and other western developers. However, for the genres we were talking about such as Fighting Games and JRPGs, she has had little to no influence since she is just an internet critic.
I doubt someone like Katsuhiro Harada is going to view her any differently than anyone else who make critical analysis videos online. It would be a lot different if say Kojima or Shinji Mikami said something i regards to the sexualization of women because they have a larger presense in shaping the Japanese gaming industry.

RM8 · Nov 18, 2017

HypedBeast said:
I feel that being both is besides the fact, she is still inspirational to a lot of female gamers( like Ricki Ortiz)
Also a bit OT, but that is demonstrably false,Chun has always been busty, its just that SFV resembles Third Stike proportion wise.

Lol, compare SFIV Chun to SFV Chun. And it wasn't only her, Cammy also got noticeably bigger since SFIV. Also, compare Chun's "sexy dress" in SFIV vs SFV. Or honestly just any old Chun promotional art, she wasn't the "t h i c c" meme she is now.

MrBoBo · Nov 18, 2017

Men like looking at beautiful woman (and vice versa), games are suppose to be entertaining and looking at beautiful human form is exactly that.

If it's something suppose to be taken with deadly earnest, with/or certain realism attached to it, it can be ridiculous, cheapening what the game is aiming for

Something like Street Fighter or Tekken? Chun Li's battle costume was worth every penny.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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