I have no problem with attractive characters. I prefer them, both male and female.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I have no problem with attractive characters. I prefer them, both male and female.
Again, for all your screaming that nobody cares, you seem to care a lot that we are talking about it. Not to mention Mortal Kombat X and Final Fantasy Morbius had blowback because they dared toned done female fanservice and toned up male fanservice respectively. I'd say you care a great deal.
That's more of a character design issue than a purely titillation issue.
So if the design is well done does that make it ok?
Like I always use Chun-Li as my gold standard of character design because creatively and technically she is a flawless design.
But with something like Cidney, her design is garish and uncreative.
Is that a good summation of your argument.
No one is talking about unrealistic or exaggerated designs. The issue is not attractive people. We're talking about objectification, which is a real world issue that affects women everywhere.
I know this post wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway.
If the design is well done but he character is treated as a sex object or something to be ogled, no. It doesn't make it okay. The things devs do right doesn't outweigh the things they do wrong.
Yep, It doesn't matter how pretty the lamp is, if I can switch out the character with a lamp and nothing changes, there's a problem.
How is this even a discussion it's like me being pissed about violence in a Rambo movie or too many guys in a all male porno film. Like movies there are numerous video games to choose from. So just find that video game that is to your liking.
I don't think putting limits on a creative process will end well. Just let everything be created and choose what you want to support.
I don't think putting limits on a creative process will end well. Just let everything be created and choose what you want to support.
I've found plenty of video games to my liking, and the majority have superfluous, bullshit sexism in them.
What about fighting games where the personalities are all 1-dimensional anyway, so it really dosent matter
For example I really like Dudley, but his entire personality is "Well behaved British Gentlemen," there is very little depth there.
I used to think along the same lines as you. My advice: Take a step back. Now I haven't perused all 40+ pages of this thread, but I have no doubt in my mind that the argument you're making has been made numerous times in this thread before.
This is a discussion because this objectification is commonplace in gaming. That's why women are bothered. It's not that the games meant for men have objectified women, it's that a noticeable amount of games have objectified women. Games winning GotY awards have problems with their handling of female characters. That's why women are bothered. It makes them feel like they don't belong as an audience, and that's not cool.
If the design is well done, it makes it more tolerable. I can even appreciate a sexualized female design, because the human body can be beautiful and design can take advantage of that. But I don't know if it's "okay." I personally believe the ubiquity of highly sexualized female designs contributes to/is born from the implicit understanding that the world is for (straight) men and everyone else is just visiting.
But I don't have a problem with Chun Li and I agree with your description of Cidney. I'm tired of "garish" designs. Even if I try to ignore how silly a design looks, it feels harder and harder to ignore when the camera demands their attention. More than the designs themselves, the way the characters are modeled and treated in game can be a problem. A lot of the designs for Sen no Kiseki III looked pretty good on paper, but in game they looked silly, because of the way they were modeled and the inclusion of boob physics. All of this in a game that demanded to be taken very seriously.
No ones advocating any regulation, all anyone is doing is criticising. And artistic expressions require criticism - it's literally part of every medium of art - paintings,film,music etc. It's the only way mediums move forward
...One is allowed to complain about aspects of something and still like other aspects. You are also the third person to come in here without reading any of the previous statements, assume you know everything there is to know, then start lecturing everyone as if you hold the magical solution.
Rambo movie is about violence, porn is... well, about porn. Games are not about sexualized women, but some devs insists on shoehorning them anyways, and that makes women feel not welcomed. And it doesn't help AT ALL when some of you guys come here and say "just play anything else".
Btw, you're lying yourself if you think sexualized characters always comes from artistic freedom.
Highly sexualized female characters pervade almost every Japanese game, which I almost exclusively play. If I want to play a game with a grand, expansive JRPG story there's the Kiseki/Trails series and that's pretty much it.
You know, some people even make their living by criticizing games. Some do for movies too. I would also like to say to anyone criticizing Witcher 3 movement and combat just to shut their mouths. If you don't like it, keep it to yourself. There's plenty of us who do like it, so let us keep it right?
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I understand where you coming from now, thank you for responding very succinctly.
Obviously all these games are being created for one purpose, to create revenue for a corporation. Wouldn't it be easier to get to the root cause and realize that society is supporting this material. Most people are not bothered by this form of sexism or others just end up dealing with it. If we want to change, society needs to change and stop giving money for these types of games to be created. Until then we have to look at it democraticly and most people don't care about this issue.
Well now you understand the point of this thread: To get people to care about this issue (or at least understand why people consider it to be an issue). Seeing as how there's 40+ pages, I'd say there's interest in at least discussing this issue.
"Most people." Seriously stop and think for a second about what you mean by most people. Don't you think objectification in games could be a big part of why women are in a minority in the gaming community? It's really off-putting and signals that games are only for straight men.
I'm not going to change or tailor my interests in games that do shitty things just because they do shitty things. Nor should I be expected to.
Telling women to "play something else" is rude and dismissive. We get it; video games are an industry tailored to and suited for men. Women are treated like they don't belong here. But I'll be damned if I'm not going to criticize the things I don't like about games that are offensive to me, as a woman, and the gender as a whole.
If people don't care about this issue, then why do you care if an apparently small number of people discuss why they have a problem with it? Last I check, we don't have magic wands in our back pocket and my mind control device is currently busted so why do you feel so threatened by this conversation that you need to butt in and talk everyone down?
Games are about sexualizing women. Games are about sexualizing men. Games are about not sexualizing women or men.
Games are about making money. So they are about anything the majority of society agrees to. We as a people need to change if we want other things to change as well. Until then the majority wins.
Exactly. Gaming is big and diverse, not exactly short on short choices.
You literally have people here, in this thread, for 47 pages now, who have been saying over and over again that they care very much.
I've made the point time and time again that society won't change, will not change, and has not changed, unless people speak up and do something about it. Sexism is real, and it still happens on a daily basis. It is ingrained in our society that women are sex figures used for male stimulation. We have always been the ones that are subjugated and objectified for male pleasure. Historically, and, in this instance, in the virtual world. It is not enough to speak with your wallet or "deal with it."
Seriously stop undermining our opinion by saying that we shouldn't care or that we should suck it up and play something else so the boys can have their tiddies.
Those attitudes are the very reason why we're talking about it in the first place.
No, no you have not. You came here belittling everyone who agreed with the OP then tried to take the "both sides" aspect under the guise of being impartial. You are not above this. You have definitely not discovered the root cause and are actively pretending the root cause doesn't exist in favor of a solution that let's you ignore or insult anyone who disagrees with you. I'm getting tired of this.
I would pay money for DLC that gave female characters more tasteful design or removed boob physics. But that's not an option for me. I would love to play a game like Xenoblade 2 that didn't feature trashy designs. But it isn't an option for me. I would love to play a Kiseki style series without some of the awkward sexualization. But it isn't an option for me. I would have liked to play a (competent) game like FFXV, but without a character like Cidney. But it isn't an option for me.
It might have been an option 20 years ago. But it isn't today.
I mean if I didn't wanna watch a movie about neo Nazi I wouldn't watch American History X. I would go ahead and find something else to watch. I don't see the difference with movies, music and video games, all are artistic driven.
I'd be lying if I said weird sexualised female designs in serious games is off putting. Quiet is often brought up in discussions and she's a perfect example. Her design doesn't fit I would rather Kojima put in a dirty magazine as an easter egg or something if he needed something to jerk his gherkin to.
I'm all for more equal representation in games. Just as long as silly cheesecake like Senran Kagura or Dead or Alive Beach volleyball can exist too. We can also have more cool games with cool ladies in too. I think everyone can be happy that way. I don't want people to treat gaming as some weird exclusive treehouse club.
Hopefully we can get more women into the industry. I love Japanese games but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting tired of busty characters who jiggle like they strapped gelatin to their chest. It's just unrealistic. It's like the guys who make these games have never seen a woman before. Which is really hard to do. They're half the population.
I'm all for more equal representation in games. Just as long as silly cheesecake like Senran Kagura or Dead or Alive Beach volleyball can exist too. We can also have more cool games with cool ladies in too. I think everyone can be happy that way. I don't want people to treat gaming as some weird exclusive treehouse club.
Hopefully we can get more women into the industry. I love Japanese games but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting tired of busty characters who jiggle like they strapped gelatin to their chest. It's just unrealistic. It's like the guys who make these games have never seen a woman before. Which is really hard to do. They're half the population.
There are more women than men in the world.
If it was about what the majority agrees chances are we would have armored thongs, not armored bikinis.
When you objectify a little bit more than half of the population you are loosing money. Most examples of extreme sexualization basically put that game on a small niche. that is like the opposite of making money.
Look at it this way: Imagine if all big-budget blockbuster films were sympathetic towards Neo Nazis and everyone was cool with it.
That's why women are bothered by the sexualization of women in games. It's not the fact that there aren't alternatives -- there are. It's that in these AAA games, the sexualization is not needed, and makes women feel excluded.
How on earth are you 'staying impartial' and 'trying to find the root cause' while comparing complaints about sexism in games to complaining about violence in Rambo? That's ridiculous.
Games are a medium. It wouldn't make any sense to disregard criticism of sexist depictions of women in cinema because some people like Rambo either.
Right, but the games we're talking about aren't about boobs. They just feature them prominently, at every turn.
If you want to play a game about androids, Nier Automata is probably for you. But if you run you'll be treated with upskirt shots.
If you want to play a game with an expansive storyline, Trails is probably for you. But you're going to have to put up with trashy groping cutscenes.
If you want to play a game with strategy gameplay, Fire Emblem is probably for you. But you're going to see a lot of highly sexualized female characters.
Are gratuitous panty shots artistic?
You know what you're getting when you watch a neo-Nazi movie. Do you know how a game is going to treat a female character or how her design is going to turn out? Not always.
Also I'm not going to stop playing a game just because it does something I don't like. I'm going to play it if I want to, and criticize it accordingly.
Also this
I don't think I'm special and have to have a video game tailored to my liking. Apart from sexism you can be offended by anything. If we created a set of guidelines to follow to appease everyone from a vegan to a feminist then things in life would be boring. I still think, apart from blatant hate, censorship will bring is down a dangerous path.
Regarding Cidney is her sexual design really that off putting? It's not as ridiculously unrealistic as say Pyra is in Xenoblade 2.
I get that it's totally unnecessary but I don't see it as being such a major point of contention. I'm a bi guy so obviously she appeals to me but after 5 minutes I really stopped noticing what she was wearing.
I like how you ignored the rest of my post which did focused on your "point" that no one cared about sexualized females and males by pointing out two recent events that showed the opposite. But I guess actually addressing any criticisms wouldn't work for someone like you.
Once again, one is allowed to criticize something. The OP mentions that she likes everything else about the game except the objectification of women. I love the One Piece series but have criticized the increased bust sizes of every female character even when it made no goddamn sense. I enjoyed the first Witcher game but despised the female sex card collecting it had. I enjoyed Metal Gear Solid V but found Quiet to be distracting and off-putting. It's almost as if we humans are capable of enjoying a product yet finding things we don't like about it.
Yes upskirt panty shots are artistic. Also the lack of upskirt panty shots are artistic as well.
Not a fan that fan of JRPGs so can't really comment on them, i'll take your word for it though, if that's an issue and it's directly hampering you enjoying the game, I can understand it.
As I said in my original post, something like a fantasy game, or generally something deadly earnest in tone where a character looks ridiculous will spoil my enjoyment to a degree and ebb away at whatever credibility the game it trying to put-forward.
But something like SFV? Where Zangief stores objects of importance in his chest hair? Or Bison makes refrences to his delicious meme? Non issue for me.
lmao this. Women should just shut the fuck up and listen to men telling us how we're wrong about things that affect us directly basically
This. No one is complaining that Booby Boobs Beach Volleyball or whatever the fuck those games are called exist (if anything, people are complaining that a male fanservice variation doesn't exist); we're complaining that women can't play pretty much any game without being reminded that we're little more than sex objects.
I get it and you're right but in games you also find perfect males with perfect muscles and all that that are being sexualized. There are plenty of examples. Yes, it is more frequent with women but I think it's a generalized problem.
Personally I don't care that much, I play the games I like and cringe a little bit in some cases but that's it.
Personally I don't care that much, I play the games I like and cringe a little bit in some cases but that's it.
Once again, and since you repeatedly bring this up this proves you are not impartial,
NO ONE IS SAYING CENSORSHIP! BEING CRITICAL OF SOMETHING =/= CENSORSHIP!
I mean, people in this thread are also complaining about Pyra so...
Literally no one wants a game tailored for just one gender. Literally no one is asking for censorship. We want it to be fair. Because right now, the vast majority of games are tailored for men. See the problem? You're getting what you want, as a man, but god forbid if a woman has a problem with sexism and wants equal, fair representation.
Who is advocating censorship?
You're dismissing all criticism, because you don't think it's an important issue. I suggest reading the thread and paying attention to the many women who contributed so you can better understand their perspective.
Yes, I find her design to be incredibly offensive and off-putting. Easily one of the worst female designs in recent years. Pyra's is awful too.
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