I remember many people saying things like "I don't care that it shows skin. I care that it looks stupid" about that Mobius guy.Also, redesign based on "fan feedback"
like, I remember in GAF the same people that said there was nothing wrong with sexualized women criticized the FF Mobius guy.
Ya, that's because you took me out of context and directly attempted to reduce my comments to "screaming".
There seemed to be something of a vendetta tone to it as well, very personal. Like I should be punished.
No thanks bro.
I mean if I didn't wanna watch a movie about neo Nazi I wouldn't watch American History X. I would go ahead and find something else to watch. I don't see the difference with movies, music and video games, all are artistic driven.
But something like SFV? Where Zangief stores objects of importance in his chest hair? Or Bison makes refrences to his delicious meme? Non issue for me.
From reading through the thread, I don't think many were looking to stop certain visions, even if harmful? There was more of a move towards looking to reshape the paradigm a bit.Video games are a form of art, if the developer chooses to use a certain style then let them. If an artist has a certain vision who are we to tell them it's wrong, just don't play that particular game.
Definitely. Society as a whole could benefit from looking at representation more. It's kind of hard because a lot of this is ingrained in people and people are pretty complacent (not excluding myself from this point either). Threads like this are a great opportunity to hear voices which often get shunned (and still are... as can be seen from this thread).Obviously all these games are being created for one purpose, to create revenue for a corporation. Wouldn't it be easier to get to the root cause and realize that society is supporting this material. Most people are not bothered by this form of sexism or others just end up dealing with it. If we want to change society needs to change and stop giving money for these types of games to be created. Until then we have to look at it democraticly and most people don't care about this issue.
One costume Capcom accidentally stumbled on vs... how many main of the women character designs/promo art pieces/dlc costumes?Do you see men on mass protesting not to buy SFV because Ryu is too dam sexy?
Yea, it's because we don't care. In the slightest.
Surely, that's a rhetorical question. It's not off-putting to you, it's off-putting to Encephalon (and many other people).Regarding Cidney is her sexual design really that off putting? It's not as ridiculously unrealistic as say Pyra is in Xenoblade 2.
I get that it's totally unnecessary but I don't see it as being such a major point of contention. I'm a bi guy so obviously she appeals to me but after 5 minutes I really stopped noticing what she was wearing.
Surely, that's a rhetorical question. It's not off-putting to you, it's off-putting to Encephalon (and many other people).
Just because it's not as bad as some other videogame kind of shows how bad female character design is overall, that there are so many examples.
If fanservice is going to be so pervasive and unavoidable in videogames, at least give the options to not have to deal with it.
I remember many people saying things like "I don't care that it shows skin. I care that it looks stupid" about that Mobius guy.
As if "it looking stupid" is not actually a big part of why people criticize characters like Quiet.
Yes, I find her design to be incredibly offensive and off-putting. Easily one of the worst female designs in recent years. Pyra's is awful too.
They're playing into historically sexist tropes, whether they realize it or not.May I ask why? Is it because she's designed for the male gaze? I don't think SE is trying to make a statement regarding women's role in society.
Her design isn't any more ridiculous than Gladious's design.this pic is honestly so funny because both guys are wearing black and the guy on the right is even wearing a sleeved jacket while the girl is almost naked. Either they're both sweating their balls off or she's about to freeze to death. Or maybe there's some selective weather going on.
Surely, that's a rhetorical question. It's not off-putting to you, it's off-putting to Encephalon (and many other people).
If fanservice is going to be so pervasive and unavoidable in videogames, at least give the options to not have to deal with it.
They're playing into historically sexist tropes, whether they realize it or not.
Get Gladio in the shot and it all balances out. Shorts down south is normal and they were shooting for that kind of look with her. Doesnt excuse that famous zoom up her ass gif but the outfit itself is in line with the male giggolo in the gamethis pic is honestly so funny because both guys are wearing black and the guy on the right is even wearing a sleeved jacket while the girl is almost naked. Either they're both sweating their balls off or she's about to freeze to death. Or maybe there's some selective weather going on.
Get Gladio in the shot and it all balances out. Shorts down south is normal and they were shooting for that kind of look with her. Doesnt excuse that famous zoom up her ass gif but the outfit itself is in line with the male giggolo in the game
What the fuuuuuuck. Why do you think it only comes down to "being offended"? I'm not really one to get offended, but I can be disappointed, bored, bothered etc. Like is this how you reply to all game criticism? "Stop being offended."I don't think I'm special and have to have a video game tailored to my liking. Apart from sexism you can be offended by anything. If we created a set of guidelines to follow to appease everyone from a vegan to a feminist then things in life would be boring. I still think, apart from blatant hate, censorship will bring is down a dangerous path.
What the fuuuuuuck. Why do you think it only comes down to "being offended"? I'm not really one to get offended, but I can be disappointed, bored, bothered etc. Like is this how you reply to all game criticism? "Stop being offended."
May I ask why? Is it because she's designed for the male gaze? I don't think SE is trying to make a statement regarding women's role in society.
Completely honest question because I haven't played the game: how many female characters vs. male characters are there in the game, and how many sexualized female characters vs. sexualized male characters? Like, what's the percentage of sexualized female characters compared to the percentage of sexualized male characters?
One costume Capcom accidentally stumbled on vs... how many main of the women character designs/promo art pieces/dlc costumes?
Aside from that, there's a reason it hit so many headlines... because seeing such a sight was a real rarity.
Its an open world RPG so most of the time you are looking at the cast, and Gladio is one of the main characters. One of the members takes pictures of your day to day life and you can literally end every "day" worth of saved game with glory shots of him all over your screen in action. I think the percentage figure is hard to come up with subjectively, but I only recall Cindy and some badass lady whos less exposed but the armor has gaps being the controversial onesCompletely honest question because I haven't played the game: how many female characters vs. male characters are there in the game, and how many sexualized female characters vs. sexualized male characters? Like, what's the percentage of sexualized female characters compared to the percentage of sexualized male characters?
What sexist trope are they playing into? That women are sex objects? Sorry if you've already answered this but there's 48 pages and I've only just got into it now.
Completely honest question because I haven't played the game: how many female characters vs. male characters are there in the game, and how many sexualized female characters vs. sexualized male characters? Like, what's the percentage of sexualized female characters compared to the percentage of sexualized male characters?
I don't think they're trying to make a statement at all, no. But I think they're making one anyway. They're saying that women are meant to be ogled and enjoyed by straight men, and that's it. I don't think I'll be able to find it now, but during one of Square's streams for the game before release they were talking about fan responses and how many European fans especially didn't like Cindy's character design. (This was in the survey results after the demo.) One of the Square guys commented that they didn't understand what the issue was, since people wanted more female characters in the game since the whole main party is male. Like any woman who was included in the game only existed to be cheesecake.
And from a selfish perspective, it reminds me that I'm not the audience for the games I like and no one really cares what I think. Which makes me feel like crap. I'll see people wax poetic about the gaming community, but I've never felt like a part of it. I don't know if I ever will as long as games literally feel like they're pushing me away. It was so disheartening as a kid to just want to play as a girl who wasn't a princess and/or didn't have huge breasts covered in tissue paper. I'm glad things are better for kids today, but it's still not great.
Ignoring side quest and generic npcs, there are like 10 dudes of all ages and there are 5 women of all hot and young.Completely honest question because I haven't played the game: how many female characters vs. male characters are there in the game, and how many sexualized female characters vs. sexualized male characters? Like, what's the percentage of sexualized female characters compared to the percentage of sexualized male characters?
Throughout history, women have been given the role of caretaker, child bearer, and a domestic housewife, subservient to her husband. We've been taught that you have to be pretty to please a man, that you should smile, that you should just "deal with it" when guys harass us or treat us as objects for sexual pleasure. Video games are a reflection of this, regarding this specific topic. Female characters are used as tools for sexual stimulation, because girls should be sexy and pleasant to look at and that's all they're ever good for. Women in video games are treated as less than their male counterparts, through degradation and the lessening of their role to "tits and ass". Because that's what the male consumer base wants (because video games are for boys) and that's what's viewed as socially acceptable.
Obviously not all games do it, but we're specifically talking about objectification and why it happens.
Literally the beginning of the game, as you push the regala the camera totally focuses deep on his ass lolGladio is the only guy that can be even remotely described as sexualized and the camera and other characters certainly don't focus on him like that.
Regarding Cidney is her sexual design really that off putting? It's not as ridiculously unrealistic as say Pyra is in Xenoblade 2.
I get that it's totally unnecessary but I don't see it as being such a major point of contention. I'm a bi guy so obviously she appeals to me but after 5 minutes I really stopped noticing what she was wearing.
Don't play me like that one camera shot that had all the guys pushing a car together is anywhere near Cindy washing the regalia, though.Literally the beginning of the game, as you push the regala the camera totally focuses deep on his ass lol
Oh no, that wasnt a redemption claim at all dont get me wrong. I mentioned on a previous post that the popular cindy ass shot scene is unexcusable in fan service regardDon't play me like that one camera shot that had all the guys pushing a car together is anywhere near Cindy washing the regalia, though.
But that's the thing, that's really the only scene I can think of that gets even close to ogling Gladio, and it's not even the same? Like, it's all the guys pushing the car together and he happens to be the one closest to the camera. They don't exactly lovingly focus on his ass like how they focus on Cindy's boobs.Oh no, that wasnt a redemption claim at all dont get me wrong. I mentioned on a previous post that the popular cindy ass shot scene is unexcusable in fan service regard
Honestly, male and female sexualization works completely different and is inherently "unequal". As this thread shows, nobody gives a shit about topless dudes. It doesn't count, it's not the same. Make a topless female character and you're creating porn, have her breasts covered but show cleavage and it's fanservice. It's significantly easier to sexualize female characters thanks to those pesky secondary sexual characteristics, isn't it? And then even attractive dudes (like Raiden) wearing close to nothing tend to come off as comical more than titillating.On the subject of SF the cast has always had males in basically thongs or underwear too, but they arent portrayed making sensual poses I would think in part because its difficult for men to behave in that manner without coming accross as try hard or creepy. Male sexyness seems to be a more subtle thing, one that I personally havent got a clue how to convey. Women themselves are the embodiment of the most beatufil part of humanity in my opinion, but its nice to see a balance for sure with a display of strentgth on the female gender in games exceeding the show of beauty.
Literally the beginning of the game, as you push the regala the camera totally focuses deep on his ass lol
Not everyone arguing against the widespread objectification of women in games in this thread is a woman.Honestly, male and female sexualization works completely different and is inherently "unequal". As this thread shows, nobody gives a shit about topless dudes. It doesn't count, it's not the same. Make a topless female character and you're creating porn, have her breasts covered but show cleavage and it's fanservice. It's significantly easier to sexualize female characters thanks to those pesky secondary sexual characteristics, isn't it? And then even attractive dudes (like Raiden) wearing close to nothing tend to come off as comical more than titillating.
"Objectification" is basically how male sexuality works in the first place, show some pent up dude completely contextless tits and ass and you're going to get a reaction. I'm not an expert on the field but this is not how things work for a majority of women and what they want from sexualized males. Combine this aspect with my first point and there you have it: the world in which female characters get sexualized more often than males, which the women in this thread hate so much. And authorial intent basically didn't even enter the picture at this point, this kind of "injustice" is baked into society and human sexuality from the start.
The only course of action that could eradicate this injustice is a complete erasure of fanservice of any kind and that's just not going to happen. Criticize away, sure why not, but you're not going to convince dudes en masse that exaggerated boob physics should not be enjoyed and purged from existence >:(
Like, the aspect of futility of this whole argument is so strong, I honestly feel kind of bad for anyone arguing in good faith.
Honestly, male and female sexualization works completely different and is inherently "unequal". As this thread shows, nobody gives a shit about topless dudes. It doesn't count, it's not the same. Make a topless female character and you're creating porn, have her breasts covered but show cleavage and it's fanservice. It's significantly easier to sexualize female characters thanks to those pesky secondary sexual characteristics, isn't it? And then even attractive dudes (like Raiden) wearing close to nothing tend to come off as comical more than titillating.
"Objectification" is basically how male sexuality works in the first place, show some pent up dude completely contextless tits and ass and you're going to get a reaction. I'm not an expert on the field but this is not how things work for a majority of women and what they want from sexualized males. Combine this aspect with my first point and there you have it: the world in which female characters get sexualized more often than males, which the women in this thread hate so much. And authorial intent basically didn't even enter the picture at this point, this kind of "injustice" is baked into society and human sexuality from the start.
The only course of action that could eradicate this injustice is a complete erasure of fanservice of any kind and that's just not going to happen. Criticize away, sure why not, but you're not going to convince dudes en masse that exaggerated boob physics should not be enjoyed and purged from existence >:(
Like, the aspect of futility of this whole argument is so strong, I honestly feel kind of bad for anyone arguing in good faith.
I don't know if people are purposely obtuse or they really can't tell an actual sexualized male character. Here's a little test for everyone - only one of these characters is sexualized:
Heh, you could add 'makes argument that games shouldn't cater to one demographic', a) as if treating the female characters the same as the male ones is somehow aiming at a 'demographic' rather than a broader appeal and b) keeping a straight face while defending games that are pretty much laser-focused on one demographic at the moment.This thread is fucking groundhog day. I really commend the regulars here for having the stamina and resolve to keep calmly explaining the same basic things over and over to the photocopied schmucks that don't bother reading the thread or even the OP and regurgitate the same fallacious arguments over and over. I simply can't muster the patience or energy today.
I could do a flow diagram at this point, it wouldn't be complicated:
1) "Why women dislike sexualization"
2) Pick one:
2.a) "But not all women have this opinion" said a man stating the obvious and ignoring the multiple women opinions in the thread.
2.b) "But men are sexualized too" said a man ignoring the 100 to 1 ratio and assuming the likes of Kratos are sexualization.
2.c) "But why do you care" said a man as if that wasn't the point of the thread and explained in the OP and throughout the thread.
2.d) "But I don't care" said a man, proud of his lack of empathy, "and therefore neither should you".
2.e) "But creative freedom / don't take away our tits".
3) Explanations.
4) Man: "Just having a discussion here" / tone policing / different opinions card.
5) Further explanations.
6) Pick one:
6.a) Man is exposed for the concern troll he is, everyone ignores him.
6.b) Man leaves unconvinced, when he realizes his opinions, which he thought groundbreaking, aren't causing an epiphany on anyone.
7) Go back to 2)
As a straight man, I prefer Zangief. So I'd say the bottom one is sexualized. I wouldn't want to play as him.I don't know if people are purposely obtuse or they really can't tell an actual sexualized male character. Here's a little test for everyone - only one of these characters is sexualized:
Did you get it right? :P
I don't know if people are purposely obtuse or they really can't tell an actual sexualized male character. Here's a little test for everyone - only one of these characters is sexualized:
Did you get it right? :P
Heh, you could add 'makes argument that games shouldn't cater to one demographic', a) as if treating the female characters the same as the male ones is somehow aiming at a 'demographic' rather than a broader appeal and b) keeping a straight face while defending games that are pretty much laser-focused on one demographic at the moment.
But all that means is no fanservice.Not everyone arguing against the constant objectification of women in this thread is a woman.
'Complete eradification of fanservice' is an extreme compared to a more realistic goal of 'better, more varied depictions of female characters'.
No, it doesn't come down to no fanservice, that's a massive simplification compared to everything else discussed in the thread. Do you really think Quiet wouldn't still be sexy and attractive without the ridiculous costume? Of course she would. Perhaps a better summary might be 'less fanservice completely derived of context would be good', or 'fanservice as part of the medium rather than a default for female leads' . There is no reason for Quiet to be in that outfit when male characters with the same condition don't take up arms in their speedos. At that point, you're also killing the storytelling, worldbuilding and character background just to have tits and ass, when really you can have all four with a bit more thought rather than fanservice being the priority over and above everything else when you have a mixed audience. Fanservice in context comes in for a lot less flak than Cindy and Quiet, and its worth thinking about why.But all that means is no fanservice.
When it comes to characterization there is no appreciable difference in quality of writing of your average videogame dude and your average videogame girl. Quiet is arguably the only character worth a damn in MGSV but thanks to her outfit she's still just the worst. So really, it all comes down to "fanservice is bad". And since equalizing male and female fanservice is not a realistic solution (because they work inherently different as I described in my last post), getting rid of fanservice in general is all that's left.
But all that means is no fanservice.
When it comes to characterization there is no appreciable difference in quality of writing of your average videogame dude and your average videogame girl. Quiet is arguably the only character worth a damn in MGSV but thanks to her outfit she's still just the worst. So really, it all comes down to "fanservice is bad". And since equalizing male and female fanservice is not a realistic solution (because they work inherently different as I described in my last post), getting rid of fanservice in general is all that's left.
Right, but it still doesn't make it acceptable and should be criticized accordingly.How about a little more diversity as an option? Because, at the end of the day, a game having a character that is heavily focused on fanservice, but also having many other important, interesting, non-sexualized female characters, will get a LOT less flack. Though, admittedly, a character like Quiet is so obnoxious that she is always going to draw a huge amount of negative attention.
But all that means is no fanservice.
When it comes to characterization there is no appreciable difference in quality of writing of your average videogame dude and your average videogame girl. Quiet is arguably the only character worth a damn in MGSV but thanks to her outfit she's still just the worst. So really, it all comes down to "fanservice is bad". And since equalizing male and female fanservice is not a realistic solution (because they work inherently different as I described in my last post), getting rid of fanservice in general is all that's left.
2.g) "But creative freedom / don't take away our tits" said a man as if the OP was arguing for the magical, wholesale removal of all and every sexualized woman (as if that was remotely possible) rather than asking for a semblance of balance.
Would the depiction of this female character be less sexy without tits and ass? Is that what people call a trick questionNo, it doesn't come down to no fanservice, that's a massive simplification compared to everything else discussed in the thread. Do you really think Quiet wouldn't still be sexy and attractive without the ridiculous costume? Of course she would. Perhaps a better summary might be 'less fanservice completely derived of context would be good'. There is no reason for Quiet to be in that outfit when male characters with the same condition don't take up arms in their speedos. At that point, you're also killing the storytelling, worldbuilding and character background just to have tits and ass, when really you can have all four with a bit more thought.
And that's why this thread exists :P Imagine what it'd be like if 90% of male characters were deisgned with the exact same design philosophy as the bottom picture.As a straight man, I prefer Zangief. So I'd say the bottom one is sexualized. I wouldn't want to play as him.