Yuzu - An experimental open-source emulator for the Nintendo Switch from the creators of Citra

MusclesAreGirly · Jan 14, 2018

I really don't think emulation will hurt sales, at all. Also by the time it runs games, I am guessing the Switch will probably be on its way out and Nintendo close to releasing a new console, anyway.

Also this is great news, I'm happy this is happening so soon. Though I'm worried it will be many years before I can actually run any games.

Deleted member 1476 · Jan 14, 2018

Garf02 said:
Everyone knows emulation main intention is piracy. saying that is just a back up or for better perfomance is just putting the head in the sand and looking the other way trying to justify it side way. If Emulators were 100% commited only to performance, they will 1, not make it open source, 2) figure out a way that the game requires physical copy to run

yeah!! god forbid games made by a company be playable only on the console same company manufacture!!HOW DO THEY DARE!! D:<!!! =_____________=

Garf02 said:
there is, but between confirming, tracking down and starting a legal battle is too much of a problem from a console that Nintendo emselves already phased out. if the same would be done on Switch they might pursue.

Garf02 said:
is not about legality is simple about making it work faster and later one anyone enable it as a piracy tool,

Garf02 said:
so talking about the potential (and proved) wrong effect of emulation is bad for you, or this is wishful thinking and ignoring the inherited problems of emulation for companies and possible for players?

Garf02 said:
what else will you talk about it then? emulator is not even out nor working and by all means CEMU is piracy behind the "better performance" excuse. and things like

doesnt help to disprove those ideas

How long are you going to keep derailing the thread?

Alvis · Jan 14, 2018

The fact that you guys haven't created an "[OT] Here we discuss why emulation is terrible for the industry" thread and instead chose to derail every fucking emulation thread in existence ever proves that you aren't interested at all in having a discussion about why emulators are bad but rather annoy people who like to discuss emulators positively.

Seriously. It's literally impossible to talk about emulators here, it feels just like the old forum in that regard and that's a bad thing. If you feel so bad the need to talk about the legendary Negative Impact of Emulators™© then create a thread for that. If you only feel like discussing it in threads that have no relation to that topic, you guys have a problem.

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico · Jan 14, 2018

Garf02 said:
and by all means CEMU is piracy behind the "better performance" excuse.

No, it's not, and you are spouting nonsense.
Aside for being extremely disrespectful toward plenty of users here and the people who worked on it.

Deleted member 1849 · Jan 14, 2018

Garf02 said:
what else will you talk about it then? emulator is not even out nor working and by all means CEMU is piracy behind the "better performance" excuse. and things like

doesnt help to disprove those ideas

Emulation discussion in a general sense suffers from this problem on this site, not just this thread about Yuzu.

CEMU's closed source nature makes it more of a toy for pirates than most emulators, since the knowledge that the developers gain does not then go back to the community like it does with open source emulators. Discussions like those that have occured over the years every time Dolphin devs make huge breakthroughs simply cannot happen with CEMU outside of them posting a youtube video showing framerate gains (which is significantly less informative than the massive technical breakdowns you get with Dolphin that helped everyone better understand the inner workings of the Gamecube and the Wii). However, even in this case there's still plenty of non-piracy discussion that can be had: screenshots showing WiiU comparisons, configs, project updates, benchmarks, etc. There's plenty of talking points other than piracy.

There's also the entire discussion that could be had around Decaf, an actual open source project researching the inner workings of the WIi U. A project which may or may not then be used by CEMU devs, with CEMU devs never contributing the other way: https://github.com/decaf-emu/decaf-emu

This emulator (Yuzu) is so early in development that it is harder to talk about things like that, but lets not pretend that piracy is the only possible talking point.

Oh, and the idea that "CEMU is piracy behind an excuse" is absolutely ridiculous and completely disrespectful to those who use it legitimately.

(I don't use it at all, btw.)

Xharos said:
The fact that you guys haven't created an "[OT] Here we discuss why emulation is terrible for the industry" thread and instead chose to derail every fucking emulation thread in existence ever proves that you aren't interested at all in having a discussion about why emulators are bad but rather annoy people who like to discuss emulators positively.

Seriously. It's literally impossible to talk about emulators here, it feels just like the old forum in that regard and that's a bad thing. If you feel so bad the need to talk about the legendary Negative Impact of Emulators™© then create a thread for that. If you only feel like discussing it in threads that have no relation to that topic, you guys have a problem.

As someone else mentioned: The old site was actually BETTER about this than this place, since it was actually stamped down on multiple times.

Amauri14 · Jan 14, 2018

Well, that's quite interesting, I will check it out in a decade.

Deleted member 643 · Jan 14, 2018

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico said:
No, it's not, and you are spouting nonsense.
Aside for being extremely disrespectful toward plenty of users here and the people who worked on it.

"Extremely disrespectful"

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico · Jan 14, 2018

mdubs said:
"Extremely disrespectful"

Yes.

Basileus777 · Jan 14, 2018

Xharos said:
The fact that you guys haven't created an "[OT] Here we discuss why emulation is terrible for the industry" thread and instead chose to derail every fucking emulation thread in existence ever proves that you aren't interested at all in having a discussion about why emulators are bad but rather annoy people who like to discuss emulators positively.

Seriously. It's literally impossible to talk about emulators here, it feels just like the old forum in that regard and that's a bad thing. If you feel so bad the need to talk about the legendary Negative Impact of Emulators™© then create a thread for that. If you only feel like discussing it in threads that have no relation to that topic, you guys have a problem.

It was actually better on the old place because you did have mods that would clamp down on it.

Phrozenflame500 · Jan 14, 2018

That was fast, I'd be interested to see how fast they can get commercial games to run for such a new console. I wish them luck.

TSM · Jan 14, 2018

It'll probably be a couple years before this project is interesting to people that want to play popular commercial titles reasonably well. It's great to see that such an accomplished team is getting the ball rolling though.

Nappael said:
There's also the entire discussion that could be had around Decaf, an actual open source project researching the inner workings of the WIi U. A project which may or may not then be used by CEMU devs, with CEMU devs never contributing the other way: https://github.com/decaf-emu/decaf-emu

Cemu gets to benefit from research and solutions created by other open source emulation projects without contributing anything back. Most people's issue with Cemu being closed source isn't actually that it's closed source. It's that it's highly demotivating for open source Wii U emulation development since 99% of interested users won't even bother to look at other projects. Then at some point a closed source project's developers cease development and all their work is lost to time leaving everyone to start over from scratch. Often it's a very long time before someone starts over if anyone does at all.

Deleted member 1849 · Jan 14, 2018

TSM said:
Cemu gets to benefit from research and solutions created by other open source emulation projects without contributing anything back. Most people's issue with Cemu being closed source isn't actually that it's closed source. It's that it's highly demotivating for open source Wii U emulation development since 99% of interested users won't even bother to look at other projects. Then at some point a closed source project's developers cease development and all their work is lost to time leaving everyone to start over from scratch. Often it's a very long time before someone starts over if anyone does at all.

Yes, I agree.

I know Exzap has promised to open source the emulator if he ever decides to stop working on it, but this has happened before with other closed source emulators lost to time so I find it hard to believe.

Pablo Mesa · Jan 14, 2018

. This user is banned for a series of posts in this thread

Not even a warning 1st given there is not an outline about it like in gaf?? Kinda harsh imo
----------------------------
Back o. Topic, i feel emulation is something that should be saves for late on life or phased out devices, earlu life can affect sales in hardware, software and for Nintendo even potential support all together

Deleted member 1849 · Jan 14, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
Not even a warning 1st given there is not an outline about it like in gaf?? Kinda harsh imo
----------------------------
Back o. Topic, i feel emulation is something that should be saves for late on life or phased out devices, earlu life can affect sales in hardware, software and for Nintendo even potential support all together

I don't disagree entirely, although emulation of this type hasn't really hurt any platforms since the GBA, which was a very unique situation (GBA emulators existed even before the GBA was released). Emulation existed for the latter years of the Wii and the DS in their lifetimes, but I would argue the existence of flash carts did much more damage.

Anyway, Yuzu will likely not have any fully playable games for a year or two, and probably won't actually be reliably good until at least a year or two after that. The Switch has plenty of time yet.

Yunyo · Jan 14, 2018

I wish them luck, knowing that it's going to be a long time before full mostly-flawless Switch emulation is possible.

Pablo Mesa · Jan 14, 2018

Yunyo said:
I wish them luck, knowing that it's going to be a long time before full mostly-flawless Switch emulation is possible.

I hope the project doenst fly till late on Switch life.

Amauri14 · Jan 14, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
I hope the project doenst fly till late on Switch life.

It probably won't until a few years after that, and even if they have it running games by that time I'm sure that it will require the high end hardware to run it properly.

Zan · Jan 14, 2018

Cant wait for the eventual meme mods that put a Tide Pod, Uganda Knuckles, etc, into 5mash.

i can.

Kliemie · Jan 14, 2018

Interesting indeed... cant wait to see how it holds up

BishopLamont · Jan 15, 2018

Ghostsonplanets said:
Nintendo really needs to reinforce security of theirs systems to stop the scene. Piracy, homebrew and emulation at this early of the console lifecycle will only be harmful to the Switch.

piracy takes a long time to come to a system, the people waiting that long were never going to buy the console either way so nothing is really lost

theres also alot of people who are willing to buy the hardware but cant or wont buy games, so in this case at least they're buying the hardware, if emulation/piracy didn't exist then these people wouldn't even buy the hardware, something is better than nothing

the most popular consoles have the most vibrant scenes which goes a long way to keep the console/brand alive

my point in general is that emulation does alot for mindshare that can sometimes mean much more than just pure revenue, as mindshare doesn't really have a price tag, i think people place too much importance on emulation cons rather than the pros

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

SinCItyAssassin said:
It's the price of going with an off the shelf SoC

not really, Nintendo can make its own Arch, manufacture is own chips, do everything from 0 and still, will be the most if not the only devise most of the scene focus one. People dont try to hack/ emulate Nintendo hardware cause they are easy, but cause is what bring in the glory (or money). PS4 and Xbox are more Close to a PC than any console ever, and yet the work on it is minimal compared to all the people trying to break Nintendo stuffs

spam musubi · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
I hope the project doenst fly till late on Switch life.

I'd pay a patreon or whatever to get it moving faster so I can dump my switch games and play them at a decent framerate and resolution. What people have achieved with BOTW is pretty amazing. 4K 60fps does the game the justice that the switch can't.

Dom6 · Jan 15, 2018

Super Mario Galaxy 2 for Wii had over 1.28 million downloads (yeah, there isn't a way to validate who owned it and just wanted a copy to emulate/etc). That's just one statistic but it's one you can find pretty easily, and of course other Wii games were downloaded, and the ability to mod Wii's which had a crazy high install base on top of that and not require a hardware modification only added to the amount of people who might have been interested.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-the-most-pirated-pc-wii-360-games-of-2011

I guess I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it's an interesting statistic and something to think about that happened in the past. It's crazy to me that people are finding a way to emulate the PS3 more than this to be honest. My opinion is that you need to embrace the inevitable, no matter the intention. What truly is going to matter to me is making sure that Nintendo protects their ecosystem and we don't end up with an (eventual) online functionality full of hackers or people playing on emulators with modded games.

It is quite early to be getting into emulation with the system, but also wearing my game preservation hat, it may only be a matter of time until some eShop games are removed for one reason or another - and having a way to start cataloging them would be nice, maybe not right now but in the future.

Vena · Jan 15, 2018

nynt9 said:
I'd pay a patreon or whatever to get it moving faster so I can dump my switch games and play them at a decent framerate and resolution. What people have achieved with BOTW is pretty amazing. 4K 60fps does the game the justice that the switch can't.

Switch does it justice just fine. I personally would not pay a Patreon to facilitate kernelhax for dumping because I actually understand the repercussions that has on things beyond emulation.

I can exhibit patience.

quesalupa · Jan 15, 2018

Jesus Christ, already?

spam musubi · Jan 15, 2018

dr_p0p7ar7_ said:
Super Mario Galaxy 2 for Wii had over 1.28 million downloads (yeah, there isn't a way to validate who owned it and just wanted a copy to emulate/etc). That's just one statistic but it's one you can find pretty easily, and of course other Wii games were downloaded, and the ability to mod Wii's which had a crazy high install base on top of that and not require a hardware modification only added to the amount of people who might have been interested.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-the-most-pirated-pc-wii-360-games-of-2011

I guess I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it's an interesting statistic and something to think about that happened in the past. It's crazy to me that people are finding a way to emulate the PS3 more than this to be honest. My opinion is that you need to embrace the inevitable, no matter the intention. What truly is going to matter to me is making sure that Nintendo protects their ecosystem and we don't end up with an (eventual) online functionality full of hackers or people playing on emulators with modded games.

It is quite early to be getting into emulation with the system, but also wearing my game preservation hat, it may only be a matter of time until some eShop games are removed for one reason or another - and having a way to start cataloging them would be nice, maybe not right now but in the future.

Piracy download tracking numbers are pretty bullshit because you can't actually really track peer to peer downloads like that, and not every pirated copy is a lost sale anyway. Many people who download pirated copies never intended to buy the game or system anyway. And since all of this is unprovable and meaningless, trying to discuss these things based on taking numbers like these seriously and making assumptions about them is pretty silly.

Vena · Jan 15, 2018

quesalupa said:
Jesus Christ, already?

Yes... If my ability to draw a car and putting that on a cart that I pull counts as having a car.

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

nynt9 said:
I'd pay a patreon or whatever to get it moving faster so I can dump my switch games and play them at a decent framerate and resolution. What people have achieved with BOTW is pretty amazing. 4K 60fps does the game the justice that the switch can't.

not happening, BotW took months at 20K month salary with what many speculate is stolen (breaking several contracts) information given to "certified" developers to make the Base Emulator and only working on 1 specific game.

DigitalOp · Jan 15, 2018

Have they even dumped Switch carts yet? Moving fast, intrigued to watch the progress.

SinCityAssassin · Jan 15, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Have they even dumped Switch carts yet? Moving fast, intrigued to watch the progress.

Cart dumping has been a thing, getting anything workable out of it is gonna take a long while.

Deleted member 15476 · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
not happening, BotW took months at 20K month salary with what many speculate is stolen (breaking several contracts) information given to "certified" developers to make the Base Emulator and only working on 1 specific game.

Not really. I have tested Cemu with a lot of different games and it emulates them pretty well*, a lot of the times better than BotW (even before the game's release)

*Variable depending on someone's definition of "good emulation"

spam musubi · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
not happening, BotW took months at 20K month salary with what many speculate is stolen (breaking several contracts) information given to "certified" developers to make the Base Emulator and only working on 1 specific game.

There's basically no evidence of that. Don't make bullshit claims you can't back up.

I get that you hate emulation and are committed to derailing threads about it, but at least let's stick to reality.

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

itsamiracle said:
*Variable depending on someone's definition of "good emulation"

**Variable depending also on the type or rig needed to muscle the emulation in be "Good Emulation"

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

nynt9 said:
There's basically no evidence of that. Don't make bullshit claims you can't back up.

did I stutter?

Pablo Mesa said:
with what many speculate is stolen (breaking several contracts) information given to "certified" developers
speculate
SPECULATE

and this is not my fan fic idea m8

https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/...ly_go_open_source_and_it_was/#bottom-comments

one of the main discussion about CEMU being locked (other than racking up the cash), and given the speed which they advanced the project is that they used Documentation under NDA or any other type of contract

DigitalOp · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo.... thats literally one guy asking a what if question. Its completely baseless.

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Pablo.... thats literally one guy asking a what if question. Its completely baseless.

and there is a discussion about it from other people, hell, Im not the 1st person in this thread to bring out that CEMU possible (or not) used documentation. and by reading the comment, is not that it have not happened before, as many point out with N64.
This is not a direct attack on CEMU but the plausibility of it.

spam musubi · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
did I stutter?

and this is not my fan fic idea m8

https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/...ly_go_open_source_and_it_was/#bottom-comments

one of the main discussion about CEMU being locked (other than racking up the cash), and given the speed which they advanced the project is that they used Documentation under NDA or any other type of contract

Top tier FUD mate, goodbye.

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
and this is not my fan fic idea m8

No, but it's someone else's fanfic.

I hate this "rumor" fiercely because it literally boils down to "people unhappy with CEMU not being open source make shit up to badmouth the developers".

Just because you can come up with a fancy speculation that makes somewhat sense in your head, that doesn't mean you should spread it around as if it had any credibility.

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

just so is not a "Im pulling that out of my ass"
http://www.pcgamer.com/the-ethics-o...community-and-the-law-view-console-emulators/

Being an open source project may have saved Dolphin from legal threats in the Wii years. Anyone, including Nintendo, can see the entirely of Dolphin's source code laid bare, making it much easier to spot proprietary code or suspicious improvements illegally gleaned from private company material, rather than legally reverse-engineered.

"You can save a lot of time if you 'cheat' and look at proprietary documentation (console SDKs, leaks, etc.) while trying to understand how a console works," Bourdon explained. "This is in general frowned upon in many emulation projects: it puts the whole project at the risk of a lawsuit. It's one of the things where we have no doubts about the legality: it's clearly illegal..."

This is what makes Cemu controversial, even in the emulation community. We don't know what the source code looks like, or what kind of information the developers have used to reverse-engineer the Wii U. And the developers aren't talking (a Cemu dev declined an interview for this story).

"For a closed source project, the only thing that can be seen from the outside is the end result," Bourdon said. "The process is completely opaque. And this leads to a lot of concern about whether these projects end up taking shortcuts by looking at proprietary documentation. After all, who is going to notice? This puts the project at risk: if they were to get sued, the lack of diligence in the process would almost certainly be found through discovery (which would expose their source code, communication logs, etc.). But also it is bad for the ecosystem because closed source alternatives could end up having an advantage on the open source alternatives. Users tend to not care about long term problems like 'is this emulator going to still work 5 years from now.'"

SinCityAssassin · Jan 15, 2018

At some point people will talk about the actual emulator again than just posting about their innate thirst to play Switch games on the computer (or arguing that such a desire is piracy, or disguising such a desire to evade piracy accusations) even if we don't hear about any substantial progress on that front for a while.

but when can we dream

Pablo Mesa · Jan 15, 2018

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico said:
Just because you can come up with a fancy speculation that makes somewhat sense in your head, that doesn't mean you should spread it around as if it had any credibility.

right, I can not prove that CEMU indeed is using SKD or NDA documentation, but as well it cant be prove they are clean. its a Schrodinger paradox

but it does goes beyond :Fancy speculation: given precedents like on N64 era or from the same article

If I were to take Dolphin as an example, we talk about everything in public, we do code reviews in public, etc. That doesn't guarantee that our contributors don't look at this documentation in secret, but it makes it harder to do so. And we have a clear stance against it: I've personally banned multiple people from interacting with us because they made it clear when talking with us that they based their work on illegally obtained documentation."

And yes, from the article, the part of the community that develop emselves the emulators dread closed source projects

Robin · Jan 15, 2018

We've let the piracy debate play out. It's time to get this thread back on the rails. If you'd like to discuss concerns about piracy, please bring it to another thread.

Additionally, please refrain from posting unsubstantiated rumors.

TSM · Jan 15, 2018

nynt9 said:
I'd pay a patreon or whatever to get it moving faster so I can dump my switch games and play them at a decent framerate and resolution. What people have achieved with BOTW is pretty amazing. 4K 60fps does the game the justice that the switch can't.

The developers of Citra/Yuzu and Dolphin have both stated that they have no interest in directly receiving money from Patreon or similar. They feel it puts pressures on a project that lead to many problems without necessarily making things move any faster.

Wowfunhappy · Jan 15, 2018

Fredrik said:
It'll take a few years until this can be used for piracy the way people worry about here.

A coworker smsed me this weekend with a BOTW pic and "60fpsssss!!! :D". Obviously talking about Cemu or whatever it's called and he pirated the WiiU disc. He's a core PC gamer that never tough Nintendo systems outside of emulators. Should I be angry at him for pirating BOTW? Or just happy that he'll finally get to play one of the best games ever made and probably spread the word on how awesome it is? I take the second option. I know he won't ever buy a Nintendo console anyway. Him talking about how the game is better than most PC games is like PR at this point.

Your coworker really ought to at least purchase a copy of Breath of the Wild. If he needs to illegally download a copy of the game because ripping his own would take too mich time/resources, fine, at least he owns the game he's playing.

If your friend buys his PC games legitamately, he should buy Zelda legitamately. The fact that Zelda needs to be run in an emulator in order to be playable on PC is no excuse.

Edit: I hadn't refreshed this thread in a long time before posting, and did not see the mod message above. Apolgies.

jacket · Jan 15, 2018

KHlover said:
ten of thirty-six "perfect" games are picross titles. Another one is "Health and Safety warning".

BernardoOne · Jan 15, 2018

Pablo Mesa said:
did I stutter?

and this is not my fan fic idea m8

https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/...ly_go_open_source_and_it_was/#bottom-comments

one of the main discussion about CEMU being locked (other than racking up the cash), and given the speed which they advanced the project is that they used Documentation under NDA or any other type of contract

Thats the definition of dumb fanfic perpetuated by dumb people that hate emulation or closed source projects amd desperately need something to shit on it despite no evidence or logic whatsoever.

Deleted member 10675 · Jan 15, 2018

BernardoOne said:
Thats the definition of dumb fanfic perpetuated by dumb people that hate emulation or closed source projects amd desperately need something to shit on it despite no evidence or logic whatsoever.

Well, the fact that CEMU devs are actively obfuscating their code is something to be suspicious about.

They could have used Decaf code and we couldn't know.

Closed source projects are not trustable.

Ninjadom · Jan 15, 2018

RoboitoAM said:
I look forward to my Breath of the Wild replay in a few years. Yeah, CEMU version and all but I never did buy the Wii U version.

Remember, owning the Switch version of BOTW does not entitle you to pirate the Wii U version.

Akumasama · Jan 15, 2018

Seems too early to announce it, Switch is too fresh of a console too, it's debateable to have emulation this early through the cycle of a game console.
It also makes things more complicated for the team, from a legal point of view.

Aside from morals I think their attempt here is to raise people's awarness in an attempt to gather funds. They already showed the world how talented they are, I wouldn't be surprised to have a working version of YUZU around one year from now.

Deleted member 15476 · Jan 15, 2018

To get back on the thread topic, yuzu sounds like a decent name, but it's kinda disappointing that we still don't know what the codename NX stands for (?)

Yuzu - An experimental open-source emulator for the Nintendo Switch from the creators of Citra

User requested account closure

Saw the truth behind the copied door

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

One Winged Slayer

Community Resettler

Community Resettler

User requested account closure

Restless Insomniac

User requested account closure

User requested account closure